164 replies to this topic

[Raien]

The Triforce mark was not on his hand when he was killed. Then it not only appeared, but it began to resonate. I'd say that's proof. I could take a picture, but I know it happened. I checked before my last post.

That's because he was wearing a glove. Look at Link's hand when he receives the Hero's tunic and you'll see that the mark isn't there either (I could be wrong, I admit). The Triforce mark resonates through the glove.

Your Jesus analogy presupposes that the gods can do no wrong. We do not know the nature of the gods. However, if they interfered enough to flood the world, then why couldn't they do something stop Ganon from ever entering the Sacred Realm to begin with? These gods aren't holy. Not even close. But there are many explanations which don't involve the gods just handing him the Triforce like you suppose. Besides, I'm not even certain that Ganon has the actual Triforce of Power, although that's another debate. But let's examine the quote for a minute.

The gods couldn't stop Ganondorf from enterring the Sacred Realm because they have no power over what they didn't create; Darkness. A virus is never made by the computer itself; it comes from an outside source to attack the computer and destroy what it has made. The computer can only install anti-virus protection software (the power of Light) to fight it when it arises.

For one thing there is nothing in here to even suggest he got his hands on the Triforce. So carefully detailing a scene and leaving out an important part does not help your case. No, Ganon did not get his hands on the Triforce to begin with. That's the spirit of this text. In fact they did not even bring up the Triforce until the end as if it wasn't until that part where they realized that he had it. This is going in sequential order too, so the order is important in this case. And notice how they never say blessed by the gods. The entire game makes allusions that they're chosen by the gods. However, it never entails that the gods simply handed him the Triforce. It seems to say that he was chosen to wield that power, that the power itself was chosen to go to each individual. Again, there are many theories as to why this is the case. Some have even claimed that once Ganon touched the Triforce in the adult timeline, it was meant to go to him in the child timeline. This is interesting because I remember people debating about how in OOT it talked about fate and how Link stopping Ganon in the child timeline stopped what was fated. However, this could simply be fate. There are many theories about it. I'm not really certain that it was the actual Triforce of Power that he received. It would remove all the messiness of him getting the Triforce without touching it, but it would still give him plenty of power.

Link and Zelda are chosen by the gods because it was their destiny to save Hyrule from evil; which has always been their purpose in Hyrule. Ganondorf thought he was chosen because, like you, the other two were chosen so he must have been (it's like Hitler thought he was ordained by god to rule the world).

There is one question that you haven't answered. If the gods (or destiny) were responsible for Ganondorf's empowerment, then why did the Sages blame themselves for the entire event in the sequence when the Twilight Mirror was completed? Surely they could not have known, as you assume, that he would possess the ToP, yet they still blame themselves for their own "carelessness".

Zant might be an individual, but there seems to be inconsistancies in the game anyway. Zant claims that they knew not anger or hatred or the faintest bloom of desire. However, what is Midna? She is bitter. She is crazy. Zelda claims that there are some horrible pain harbored in her heart. There are two possibilities. Either she had known it her entire life or Zant disrupted the balance of the Twilight Realm and caused much suffering. The latter is what I want to focus on. Suppose Zant was being a bitch. He stirred up many ill feelings amongst the Twili. This eventually awakened Ganon, and it fits with the text.

Midna is bitter because Zant polluted her world with Ganondorf's power and she was forced to abandon her people. This is stated.

Besides, if they really did regress and know nothing inside of the Twilight Realm, it wouldn't have been able to help Ganon by the time he was executed. You're supposing that the Twili's banishment was a very recent event by that time, which it could have been, but there's a very big chance that it would've been a memory by Ganon's time.

No, I'm supposing that the sealing of the Twili's ancestors occurred centuries ago and that Ganondorf was forced into the Twilight Realm once all the Twili had lost their malice and hatred for the Light World.

Also of note is that when Zant talks about his ancestors, he says "we". Ths even further blurs the distinction between the ancestors and the present Twili.

Zant has a different perspective of events to Midna. Midna tells us that the tribe became Twili only after they were banished to the Twilight Realm, and that they changed to become different from their ancestors. Zant believes they are the same tribe, which is why he wants revenge on the Light World and to take over.

Edited by jhurvid, 23 January 2007 - 01:26 PM.

[Fyxe]

The gods couldn't stop Ganondorf from enterring the Sacred Realm because they have no power over what they didn't create; Darkness. A virus is never made by the computer itself; it comes from an outside source to attack the computer and destroy what it has made. The computer can only install anti-virus protection software (the power of Light) to fight it when it arises.

This isn't the Matrix, though. I believe that the goddesses clearly made darkness alongside light. Even Link has a dark side. The Triforce does not distinguish between good and evil, it never has, so presumably the gods don't either, because they made both. You can't create light without creating darkness.

Some people, like the Sages, might indeed consider this a divine prank. But then Ganon too loaths the gods for flooding Hyrule in the events preceeding TWW. Maybe that's just the perfect irony.

[Mgoblue201]

A glove?! Come on...really? Besides, I just checked the video of Zelda when she saves Midna. The mark is clearly on her hand, just faint enough to see despite a glove, before she raises her hand to try to help Link. So that's not the answer.

Your line about the goddesses is simply speculation, albeit a good one. Still, that explanation doesn't suffice. What exactly is darkness? When is dark too dark? For instance, if they are so opposed to evil, isn't there a point where they could have stopped him when he wasn't all that evil? If a person only partly evil does something, can the gods do anything about it? And if they can do anything they want to oppose the evil, just not destroy the evil, then they're not trying very hard. They never once actively opposed Ganon in any of the games, simply letting old devices like the Temple of Time half assedly do their job. And why even create the Triforce to begin with? They obviously realized its implications for abuse. And what's this business with chosen ones by the gods (and even if Ganon isn't chosen, which he is, he's been fated to do what he does over and over)? The problem is, it's nowhere as simple as you claim. The gods may completely oppose darkness, they may not, but it is clear that they only get involved in Hylian affairs to a certain extent. They might have flooded Hyrule, but only because the hero did not appear, which shows that they do not mitigate everything. Besides, if the goddesses have no power over darkness, then who's to say that they could even stop Ganon from gaining his power? That alone makes your point irrelevant.

Once again I did not say that the goddesses just handed the Triforce to Ganon. I don't even know if he has the Triforce or simply some power reminiscent of the Triforce granted to him because he was chosen. But your point is irrelevant anyway. The sages blamed themselves because they sealed Ganon away. Doesn't matter if they were forced to. If I'm forced to do something but people suffer as a result, I'm going to feel very guilty. It's simple human nature. People beating themselves up because of something they couldn't have foreseen is one of the most overused cliches in storytelling.

You're missing the point with Midna. Her character is very...sensual. In other words she's a very emotional being. Characters don't simply change overnight. They are crafted by early life experiences, and it usually takes months or years to undergo serious psychological change. Thus Zant saying that they were stripped of their emotions is only true to a certain point. Midna would have had to have been a very emotional being for a very long time. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there was plenty enough emotion with the introduction of Zant's anger, perhaps awakening the same emotion in all of the Twili, to awaken Ganon.

Would Zant really refer to the Fused Shadows as "ancient and withered magic" and think it was a joke that Midna was trying to use it against him if he really respected his ancestors? No, clearly he sees himself in a class above since he has power far beyond all of that. He had no respect for the Twili or his ancestors. He only saw himself and his god.

[FDL]

I think it's possible that Ganondorf got the ToP then but I don't think so. I mean, why are some of you so positive that Ganondorf's execution came so soon after Link returned from the future(if the game is indeed in the CT)? I mean, if you go by appearances it can't be. Ganondorf has grown his hair quite a bit, sporting a beard and long hair tied into the back. So, that's one against that. One that's for it is Link appears to have left Hyrule in MM at most about one or two years since the end of OoT and I doubt he'd leave before Ganondorf was securely captured. But still, I think it's quite possible that it isn't a lack of Triforce that prevented Ganondorf from ruling over Hyrule. We can look to OoT's ending and ALttP's opening for an alternate idea as to why he was unable to rule over Hyrule. The Sacred Realm. We're told in OoT that Ganondorf was able to take advantage of the evil flowing from the SR into Hyrule from the temples and that allowed him to take over Hyrule. But we're told in the end of OoT that the sages are sealing up the SR. And in ALttP that "evil flowed no more" from the SR after the sages seal was cast. So perhaps without "dominion" over the SR Ganondorf wasn't able to come back to the SR and continue to take advantage of the evil that flowed from it. That could explain why TP never mentions Ganondorf ruling over Hyrule(though TWW never specifically says that either but w/e) and yet he has the ToP. I think that makes some sense. And I'm not just saying that because I want an OoT-TP connection, I'm saying that because I truly believe there is one.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 23 January 2007 - 07:29 PM.

[Raien]

A glove?! Come on...really? Besides, I just checked the video of Zelda when she saves Midna. The mark is clearly on her hand, just faint enough to see despite a glove, before she raises her hand to try to help Link. So that's not the answer.

You see it vaguely because Zelda's glove is a thin silk material (not clearly, like Link's mark does when he is not wearing the Hero's Garb). I ask you again, do we see Link's Triforce mark through his glove? If we don't, you have no argument.

Your line about the goddesses is simply speculation, albeit a good one. Still, that explanation doesn't suffice. What exactly is darkness? When is dark too dark? For instance, if they are so opposed to evil, isn't there a point where they could have stopped him when he wasn't all that evil? If a person only partly evil does something, can the gods do anything about it? And if they can do anything they want to oppose the evil, just not destroy the evil, then they're not trying very hard. They never once actively opposed Ganon in any of the games, simply letting old devices like the Temple of Time half assedly do their job. And why even create the Triforce to begin with? They obviously realized its implications for abuse. And what's this business with chosen ones by the gods (and even if Ganon isn't chosen, which he is, he's been fated to do what he does over and over)? The problem is, it's nowhere as simple as you claim. The gods may completely oppose darkness, they may not, but it is clear that they only get involved in Hylian affairs to a certain extent. They might have flooded Hyrule, but only because the hero did not appear, which shows that they do not mitigate everything. Besides, if the goddesses have no power over darkness, then who's to say that they could even stop Ganon from gaining his power? That alone makes your point irrelevant.

Darkness in Hyrule is the embodiment of all negative connotations that we recognise as players; Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Despair, Sorrow, Malice, Hatred, etc. As the King of Darkness, Ganondorf is literally fulfilling the role of Satan in the Zelda series. Yet in Christianity, the fight between good and evil is not depicted by God and Satan, but by Jesus and Satan. Jesus, as the son of God, is the individual who obeys God's wishes and brings Light to humanity, saving their souls and making the world a better place. This representation of Jesus exists in the characters of Link and Zelda, who embody Light and use it to defeat the representation of Satan; Ganon.

Perhaps my inference is wrong, perhaps the gods did make Darkness as well as Light. Yet God never supported Satan in the battle of good against evil, even when Satan was also God's creation, because Satan went against God. So why should we assume that the Hylian gods support Ganon when he actively seeks to destroy what the gods have made? In contrast, let's look at how the gods have supported Light:

-In TP's backstory, the gods made the world of Hyrule, where everyone had equal power and lived in harmony (Order).
-In TP's backstory, the gods sealed away the Twili's ancestors and the Fused Shadows, which was a corruptive dark power used for disharmony.
-In TP, we are told that the Sages were ordered to guard the Mirror of Twilight, which we can infer was because it became an evil power after the malice of the Twili's ancestors was contained inside. The Sages had sealed away other forms of evil in the Arbiter's Grounds after all (the sword of darkness).
-In TWW's backstory, the gods sealed Hyrule away but left people behind "who would one day reawaken Hyrule".
-In TWW, they kept the King of Hyrule alive and gave him the duty of finding the Hero who would defeat Ganondorf.
-In TWW, we are told that the Master Sword's power to repel evil was that of Light; also stated to be "the gods' power". The Sages prayed to the gods to give Light to the Master Sword.
-In ALTTP's backstory, we are told that forging of the Master Sword was ordered by the gods to protect Hyrule from evil.

There is so much information that shows the gods support good, peace, light, harmony, order in Hyrule. To give Ganondorf the power to bring it all down is, as I have said before, hypocritical. There is no evidence to show that they support such a decision and there is no evidence that they must directly fight Ganon themselves.

You're missing the point with Midna. Her character is very...sensual. In other words she's a very emotional being. Characters don't simply change overnight. They are crafted by early life experiences, and it usually takes months or years to undergo serious psychological change. Thus Zant saying that they were stripped of their emotions is only true to a certain point. Midna would have had to have been a very emotional being for a very long time. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there was plenty enough emotion with the introduction of Zant's anger, perhaps awakening the same emotion in all of the Twili, to awaken Ganon.

So now you're speculating that Zant's anger somehow brought malice to all the Twili? Excuses... excuses...

Would Zant really refer to the Fused Shadows as "ancient and withered magic" and think it was a joke that Midna was trying to use it against him if he really respected his ancestors? No, clearly he sees himself in a class above since he has power far beyond all of that. He had no respect for the Twili or his ancestors. He only saw himself and his god.

He respected the malice of his ancestors but sought the ultimate power that Ganondorf provided. In contrast to Ganondorf's Darkness, the Fused Shadows was useless to him.

Edited by jhurvid, 23 January 2007 - 07:50 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Darkness in Hyrule is the embodiment of all negative connotations that we recognise as players; Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Despair, Sorrow, Malice, Hatred, etc. As the King of Darkness, Ganondorf is literally fulfilling the role of Satan in the Zelda series.

Christianity belongs in Controversial, so dragging it in here accomplishes nothing.

There is so much information that shows the gods support good, peace, light, harmony, order in Hyrule. To give Ganondorf the power to bring it all down is, as I have said before, hypocritical. There is no evidence to show that they support such a decision and there is no evidence that they must directly fight Ganon themselves.

Hypocritical? I can't even begin to bash that statement. In Twilight Princess the very design of Hyrule is made up of light and darkness (good & evil) which are all part of the same force in the bigger fictional Zelda universe. Nowhere in any of the games does it say the gods are 'benign'.

[Raien]

Christianity belongs in Controversial, so dragging it in here accomplishes nothing.

I'm simply drawing from the obvious comparisons. Whether or not the gods made Darkness, there is only evidence that they favoured Light. God made both Jesus and Satan, yet he favoured only Jesus.

Another comparative example is the Wheel of Time fantasy series, which shares many of its concepts with The Legend of Zelda (to the degree that I wonder if one series is influencing the other). The Creator made the world, but he also made the Dark One, who since the beginning of time wanted to remake the world in his own image (identical to Ganondorf transforming Hyrule into the Dark World). The Creator did not fight the Dark One himself but prophecies were made of the Dragon Reborn (equivalent of the Hero) who would fight the Dark One and seal him away (thus preventing the Great Cataclysm).

Whether or not you want to analyse the motivation of the gods, such an action is not necessary, because the reason why we even have fantasy stories is because the gods do not destroy evil themselves. Would there be Lord of the Rings if the gods simply killed Sauron and the ring of power? Would there be The Legend of Zelda if the gods simply killed Ganon?

Hypocritical? I can't even begin to bash that statement. In Twilight Princess the very design of Hyrule is made up of light and darkness (good & evil) which are all part of the same force in the bigger fictional Zelda universe. Nowhere in any of the games does it say the gods are 'benign'.

Where is your evidence that Light and Darkness are all part of the same force? The evidence is that they are totally opposite forces. Light is the power to banish darkness; the benevolence that banishes evil. The power of Light is "the god's power", which implies that they are benevolent themselves. The power of Darkness is Ganon's power, which implies that he opposes the gods, who are benevolent. Thus we establish the God and Satan complex.

And nowhere does it specifically say the gods are benign, but it's typical that you ignore all the examples of their benevolence that I provided TWICE.

Edited by jhurvid, 24 January 2007 - 08:41 AM.

[Showsni]

Would there be Lord of the Rings if the gods simply killed Sauron and the ring of power?

You know how hard it is to ask them, though? It certainly wasn't a walk in the park when Eärendil and Elwing tried to get them to intervene before. And Sauron is a god, if you count the Maiar as such...

Ganondorf seems to have been helped by the anger the Twili felt at their banishment. Presumably this was a long time ago, before successive generations became mellowed out, as it were. Clearly a few still feel angry now and then - see Zant, for example. But in general, the race has mostly forgotten its origins and forgiven the people who punished them.

Like Australians, maybe.

[MikePetersSucks]

You fail for comparing Zelda and Christianity.

[FDL]

So, I guess my theory holds no weight at all huh?

[Raien]

Ganondorf seems to have been helped by the anger the Twili felt at their banishment. Presumably this was a long time ago, before successive generations became mellowed out, as it were. Clearly a few still feel angry now and then - see Zant, for example. But in general, the race has mostly forgotten its origins and forgiven the people who punished them.

The game only singles out Zant for possessing malice. According to Midna, the Twili, just like the Hylians, were able to live in harmony within their realm.

You fail for comparing Zelda and Christianity.

All games are based on real world influences and The Legend of Zelda is no exception. Although the Zelda series is not specifically related to Christianity, the basic ideologies of good and evil are identical. It's not a simple battle between deities, it's a battle for the world and for the people. Link and Zelda are humans fighting for the gods and all things benevolent, whereas Ganondorf is a human fighting in the name of all things evil and chaotic. Explaining the motivation of the gods is unnecessary because their characters are spoken for in their actions throughout the franchise. I do not intend on providing the list of these actions a third time.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 January 2007 - 07:43 AM.

[Mgoblue201]

Actually there are moments where it appears on Ganon's hand but it is not glowing. If it needs to glow to shine through, then this should not be the case. However, there are also moments where Ganon does not have the mark at all. I think he can control it. Regardless, it doesn't help either side. I'll admit I forgot about the moments where it does not show on Ganon's hand. As for Link, it stops glowing entirely when he turns into a wolf. After that we do not see his palm for the rest of the game. So there really is no way to know. Although I do want to make a quick point. There are moments when Ganon activates its power. Then it subsides, but you can still see the mark. It's a hazy mark like Zelda has. You can also see the other two triangles very clearly when the top one lights up. This isn't simply residue from the light illuminating the others as the two are lit evenly. But it hardly matters. I wonder though...every time the Triforce pulsates, it first shows the piece of the wielder, but then the entire Triforce glows. I still say that they don't have the actual Triforce pieces.

Jesus is God according to the Christian faith. God is also omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and a perfect balance of many qualities. He is equal to judge as he is to love. Satan exists because the universe is bound to those qualities. Everybody is to be judged or shown mercy when it is time. That way God operates very objectively. If he started picking and chosing things, that would make him subjective. The gods in Zelda cannot be analogous to this for the very reason that they are three separate entities. Perhaps this is a play off of the Trinity, but from what we know they are distinct beings with their own properties. Satan is in direct contrast to everything that God stands for. However, God also has direct dominion over darkness. It's just the entire free will thing. Darkness is also the lack of light. Of course if the goddesses truly are not omnipotent, then you could say that they cannot stop darkness. This would almost be a dualistic approach. The problem then becomes the fact that there are three goddesses behind light, but there is nothing we know of that's behind darkness. That's not very dualistic. And they're not doing a very good job of opposing darkness. But the point isn't that the goddesses are giving into evil. It's simply fate. Fate plays an important role in Zelda. It had a place in OOT. What if Ganon was simply fated to get that kind of power? The sage's words are important. They say he was blessed with the power of the gods. Not very good wording if he simply took it. There has to be something else to this. Unfortunately we do not know the exact nature of why he has it.

Excuses? Is it such a leap to assume that Zant's uproar would upset many of the Twili? That is hardly the worse assumption. Ganon said he awoke upon the Twili's hatred. We see Ganon approach Zant when he was in the thralls of hatred. Do you think the creators are maybe hinting at something? I mean if we're trying to find out what the creators meant, this would seem to make the most sense instead of hoping that two events maybe sync up. You're being awfully bold for something you admitted might not even be true in the first place. It's a nice theory and all, but it's not without its holes, so I'm not going to switch from a position that's hardly capsizing in the first place, and it's a stretch to think that the creators meant for it to be true.

[Raien]

Actually there are moments where it appears on Ganon's hand but it is not glowing. If it needs to glow to shine through, then this should not be the case. However, there are also moments where Ganon does not have the mark at all. I think he can control it. Regardless, it doesn't help either side. I'll admit I forgot about the moments where it does not show on Ganon's hand. As for Link, it stops glowing entirely when he turns into a wolf. After that we do not see his palm for the rest of the game. So there really is no way to know. Although I do want to make a quick point. There are moments when Ganon activates its power. Then it subsides, but you can still see the mark. It's a hazy mark like Zelda has. You can also see the other two triangles very clearly when the top one lights up. This isn't simply residue from the light illuminating the others as the two are lit evenly. But it hardly matters. I wonder though...every time the Triforce pulsates, it first shows the piece of the wielder, but then the entire Triforce glows. I still say that they don't have the actual Triforce pieces.

It's open to interpretation. I reckon that the shadow of the Triforce pieces is simply a graphical distortion because they act independently of the lighting effects that reflect Zelda/Ganondorf's body.

Jesus is God according to the Christian faith. God is also omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and a perfect balance of many qualities. He is equal to judge as he is to love. Satan exists because the universe is bound to those qualities. Everybody is to be judged or shown mercy when it is time. That way God operates very objectively. If he started picking and chosing things, that would make him subjective. The gods in Zelda cannot be analogous to this for the very reason that they are three separate entities. Perhaps this is a play off of the Trinity, but from what we know they are distinct beings with their own properties. Satan is in direct contrast to everything that God stands for. However, God also has direct dominion over darkness. It's just the entire free will thing. Darkness is also the lack of light. Of course if the goddesses truly are not omnipotent, then you could say that they cannot stop darkness. This would almost be a dualistic approach. The problem then becomes the fact that there are three goddesses behind light, but there is nothing we know of that's behind darkness. That's not very dualistic. And they're not doing a very good job of opposing darkness. But the point isn't that the goddesses are giving into evil. It's simply fate. Fate plays an important role in Zelda. It had a place in OOT. What if Ganon was simply fated to get that kind of power? The sage's words are important. They say he was blessed with the power of the gods. Not very good wording if he simply took it. There has to be something else to this. Unfortunately we do not know the exact nature of why he has it.

Alright, the next question is where does destiny/fate come from? What is the source of the prophecies that the Sages read? Well, if we observe how destiny is fulfilled, it is always related to key concepts. "When evil threatens Hyrule, a Hero shall take the Master Sword and defeat the evil." Zelda is connected to destiny because she represents the other antithesis to Ganondorf, the people's hope. The thing I notice here about this is that the birth of evil (King of Darkness) is always the cause of prophecy, never the consequence of prophecy.

This is why I have always believed that destiny favours the power of Light, because it is prophecy that brings the Hero and the Master Sword together. What's more, the gods themselves appear to be key to the fulfilment of Destiny, since it is they who have controlled the Master Sword's production and purpose in both OoT and TWW. Likewise, TP Link possesses the Hero's Garb because he is the destined "hero chosen by the gods". The two are integrally connected, and this adds destiny to my list of reasons why the gods favour light over darkness. Everything is fitting into a simple formula that whatever the gods' motivations, they support the Hylians with Light against the growing power of Darkness.

Excuses? Is it such a leap to assume that Zant's uproar would upset many of the Twili? That is hardly the worse assumption. Ganon said he awoke upon the Twili's hatred. We see Ganon approach Zant when he was in the thralls of hatred. Do you think the creators are maybe hinting at something? I mean if we're trying to find out what the creators meant, this would seem to make the most sense instead of hoping that two events maybe sync up. You're being awfully bold for something you admitted might not even be true in the first place. It's a nice theory and all, but it's not without its holes, so I'm not going to switch from a position that's hardly capsizing in the first place, and it's a stretch to think that the creators meant for it to be true.

-Ganondorf said he was empowered by the malice of the Twili's ancestors.
-The Twilight Mirror possessed the malice of the Twili's ancestors. We see an empowerment of Ganondorf take place in the presence of the Twilight Mirror.
-Zant possessed malice, which may or may not be related to the Twili's ancestors and may or may not have spread to the other Twili. We see no evidence of Ganondorf's empowerment in the presence of Zant.

In other words, one direct connection is contrasted with a vague connection. Explain to me again why my theory is full of holes when you have just tried to avoid the biggest hole of all.

Also, Ganondorf wasn't weak when he approached Zant; he had just been empowered during the execution scene. If we assume Ganondorf was weak, then how did he have the strength to house his power inside Zant? Zant's malice is important because it explains how he was seduced by Ganondorf. There is a definite connection to be made, but you are making the wrong one.

[MikePetersSucks]

he Twilight Mirror possessed the malice of the Twili's ancestors. We see an empowerment of Ganondorf take place in the presence of the Twilight Mirror.

Actually, it was said the Arbiter's Grounds possessed the malice of the Ancient Twili, not the Mirror.

[Duke Serkol]

Actually, it was said the Arbiter's Grounds possessed the malice of the Ancient Twili, not the Mirror.

Of its inmates, not necessarily the Twili.

[Fyxe]

The game only singles out Zant for possessing malice. According to Midna, the Twili, just like the Hylians, were able to live in harmony within their realm.
All games are based on real world influences and The Legend of Zelda is no exception. Although the Zelda series is not specifically related to Christianity, the basic ideologies of good and evil are identical.

It is naive and patronising to consider that the concepts of good and evil were somehow invented by Christianity, along with the concepts of gods creating heroes to fight such evil.

The Zelda mythology has much closer connections to Greek, Hindu or maybe even Norse mythology.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 January 2007 - 09:14 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I personally feel the Zelda Mythology is more like Neo-Pythagoreanism mixed with a pinch of Vodun, but that's just me.

[Mgoblue201]

Ganon was empowered by the Twili people. Sure you could interpret it as ancestors, but that doesn't necessarily make it correct. And as other people have pointed out, it was the Arbiter's Ground (actually the desert itself) that held the malice of the doomed inmates.

"This desert at world’s end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates..."

Well he's either speaking metaphorically or he means the evil in the Arbiter's Grounds since it wouldn't make sense as the Twili's malice still bleeding over. He speaks of lingering malice like say how an abandoned prison would still give you a horrible feeling. It's empty, but you can still hear the cries of inmates as if they were right there.

So your theory does have problems. My argument comes from visual clues. Language can be misconstrued. Translations can be faulty. However, we see Ganon approach Zant when he was in his worst despair. This would make sense if he was floating out in a void, "asleep" in a sense. I can't imagine that Ganon would be there for so long, simply waiting for a Twili like Zant to come around. It makes sense if Ganon stayed within Zant, growing strong, feeding off of the suffering that Zant was causing, until he was able to be reborn in Hyrule with his full power. This is why he needed Zant. This is why he simply didn't discard Zant immediately. This is why it took so long for him to return to full power. It seems to fit into place pretty well.

He had been empowered during the execution scene? Either you're saying that the execution scene happened months before TP began and the Sages were holding him for the hell of it, which doesn't make sense in your time frame, or Ganon was floating in the Twilight Realm for years twiddling his thumbs. He might have been empowered in the execution scene, but Ganon said himself he needed to be awakened. Zant describes the twilight like a cage. Therefore he would be drawn into the twilight where he would be caged for a time until Zant draws his attention. He would be "weaker" at first, although weak for Ganon is still damned powerful, so I'm pretty sure there's absolutely nothing in the game indicating that he could not house his power in Zant in that state. If he was already fully empowered, then why use Zant? Why require all that time to go back to Hyrule? If he was already at peak condition, none of this would make sense. There is no power Zant contained that Ganon had need of. Even if he needed Zant in the Twilight Realm, he could have ditched him afterwards and spread darkness throughout Hyrule and conquered it. No, he needed that time to fully awaken.

There's one thing you're forgetting about destiny. It might come in response to evil, it might lead to its defeat, but destiny always allows the bad guy to dink around first. Did destiny allow a powerful hero, of age, to rise up and defeat Ganon before he held the Triforce? No, the prophecy was built around Ganon claiming the Triforce, thus the Sheikah legend. Where was it when Hyrule needed a savior before Wind Waker or in the former telling of the Imprisoning War? The gods instead go the hard route and flood Hyrule. Destiny allows evil to triumph for a time, some times longer than others. They might oppose evil, but it is clear that they allow things to happen.

The problem is, you're arguing against a general viewpoint. I don't believe that Ganon just happened to be granted the Triforce piece. I think there are two far more likely scenarios: 1) when the childline was created, since Ganon had touched the Triforce in the adult timeline, those effects were in place for the child timeline or 2) Ganon did not have the actual Triforce piece but an essense of sorts of its power.

And I still don't get your viewpoint. So you're saying that darkness is independent of the goddesses. It's essentially on equal footing as light. However, why is darkness not represented by a powerful being or three? There are all of these gods and guardian forces working for the good of Hyrule, and yet we never see the antithesis of this. Why is there not something working for the bad of Hyrule? The two cannot be on equal footing if light always has powerful beings working for it while darkness is left to the hearts of evil men. So where did darkness come from? If darkness is a simple lack of light, then light can overpower darkness easily. You simply need light and darkness goes away. If darkness grew independent of the goddesses, then it would have to come from an equally powerful source.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 27 January 2007 - 11:55 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

And I still don't get your viewpoint. So you're saying that darkness is independent of the goddesses. It's essentially on equal footing as light. However, why is darkness not represented by a powerful being or three? There are all of these gods and guardian forces working for the good of Hyrule, and yet we never see the antithesis of this. Why is there not something working for the bad of Hyrule? The two cannot be on equal footing if light always has powerful beings working for it while darkness is left to the hearts of evil men. So where did darkness come from? If darkness is a simple lack of light, then light can overpower darkness easily. You simply need light and darkness goes away. If darkness grew independent of the goddesses, then it would have to come from an equally powerful source.

From my perspective, in order for darkness to thrive (let alone exist) these gods must tolerate it; therefore their morality is in question. Things start looking bad when deities have the power to purge evil from the universe forever, but choose not to.

Another interesting point is we're often told Hyrule was originally 'chaos' meaning the physical plain must have always been awful even before life was created. Until an omnipotent evil force is introduced to Zelda then I'm going to have to assume the gods are instead.

[FDL]

The problem is, you're arguing against a general viewpoint. I don't believe that Ganon just happened to be granted the Triforce piece. I think there are two far more likely scenarios: 1) when the childline was created, since Ganon had touched the Triforce in the adult timeline, those effects were in place for the child timeline or 2) Ganon did not have the actual Triforce piece but an essense of sorts of its power.

Well, my current theory is that he did touch the ToP in the child time but certain things prevented him from doing what he did in the adult time. I say this because I'm of the impression that Zelda sent him back to the past, but after whenever he last drew the MS. I don't agree with all this, "He went back to beore he even met Zelda" crap.

[Hero of Legend]

From my perspective, in order for darkness to thrive (let alone exist) these gods must tolerate it; therefore their morality is in question. Things start looking bad when deities have the power to purge evil from the universe forever, but choose not to.

Most gods (real-world or otherwise) don't do a half-decent job at purging evil either, so I guess that means they're all evil, then?

Another interesting point is we're often told Hyrule was originally 'chaos' meaning the physical plain must have always been awful even before life was created.

'Chaos' meaning disorder, meaning literally nothing. Nothing doesn't have to be created by anything.

And when did the world in Zelda become "awful"?

Until an omnipotent evil force is introduced to Zelda then I'm going to have to assume the gods are instead.

That would go against everything we are told in the games, but okay.

Not that I think the goddesses are necessarily ?good? either, because they clearly condone of ?evil? actions in order to get their will through. Who knows, maybe they?re just allowing Ganondorf to get the Triforce because they want something to happen? Such things are not unheard of amongst bored pantheons (not that I believe this to be the case).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 28 January 2007 - 09:36 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

Well, my current theory is that he did touch the ToP in the child time but certain things prevented him from doing what he did in the adult time. I say this because I'm of the impression that Zelda sent him back to the past, but after whenever he last drew the MS. I don't agree with all this, "He went back to beore he even met Zelda" crap.

I don't recall anyone on Storyline forcing you to believe in this particular theory, but summing it up as "crap" without any kind of justification isn't acceptable. Analyse then criticise is nicer.

Most gods (real-world or otherwise) don't do a half-decent job at purging evil either, so I guess that means they're all evil, then?

That's the "problem of evil" for you; until confirmed in an upcoming title it will always be open to speculation for TP has opened the possibility they are somewhat 'evil' although the people blindly follow them regardless like in tWW. Besides if any god is on a higher plane of existence wouldn't that make evil/disorder all the more terrible?

And when did the world in Zelda become "awful"?

Whoa don't twist my words! I'm talking about the fictional world itself where people are clearly suffering as a result of the monsters and such.

[FDL]

I don't recall anyone on Storyline forcing you to believe in this particular theory, but summing it up as "crap" without any kind of justification isn't acceptable. Analyse then criticise is nicer.

True, but few who disagree with my theory have been particularly nice. I have analyzed it, I believe it's in another thread.

[BourgeoisJerry]

The goddesses might just like for there to be a balance of all things, including light and darkness.

[Mgoblue201]

There's the possibility that there isn't even a real God, so the problem of a deity and evil wouldn't even be there in the first place. Christianity seems to answer this question somewhat successfully. Since God is completely objective, he needs an objective process to deal with evil. Things like free will and personal action are paramount to Christianity. Thus people must be able to choose between good and evil. The problem with people's view of the Christian God is that they think he can simply do anything. Well that would be subjective in a sense. If God is objective and never changing, then there's certain things he could not do. For an objective God to break his own nature, well, that would be paradoxical, and thus an impossibility. And not just impossible as in a feat that humans can not do. I mean impossible as in a complete undoable paradox that literally makes no sense. Thus he cannot simply go against his own nature and crush evil and save the day. An objective God demands retribution, retribution as in falling short of perfection. He also allows for mercy. Christianity is the only religion I know of with a single, personal God, so it's very complicated. Juduism was obviously a forebearer of Christianity, and their beliefs differ, but their idea of a God is mostly the same.

Hinduism is very different. They claim that suffering is merely an illusion. This world is more like a dream. To be awoken from this dream, we must keep doing good until we reach nirvana. If this world is a dream, then evil has no lasting consequence other than getting us closer or farther to or from the ultimate goal. Buddhism came from Hinduism, and they believe in nirvana and such, although they tend to embrace suffering. Their idea is shedding desire to find englightenment. But they deal in much the same realm, so they don't necessarily have a problem with answering the paradox of evil either. I do not know enough about Islam to make any definitive statements about it.

I don't know if there are any completely cohesive religions made for fantasy worlds. A lot of them embrace a subjective god or gods and yet claim suffering and evil are very real entities. These gods can do whatever they want, and man reaps whatever comes, for good or for bad. This is a very Grecian view of the world. They had a very fatalistic view since they thought the gods were up there doing anything they wanted. A lot of other fantasy worlds seem to say that there is a god or gods that are inherently good, although they rarely are able to explain why they don't just blot out evil. That's why there's always the dualistic approach. Good and evil are on equal grounds, and gods on both sides fight in an eternal battle.

[Kairu Hakubi]

um, I think we're forgetting a key point here. The gods did not choose Ganondorf, they chose Link and Zelda. The story was quite explicit:
1. Ganondorf lays his hands on the whole triforce
2. Triforce won't have any of that, but the best it can do is split and leave him with the one piece that suits him best. In other words, no matter who you are, if you touch the triforce, you get SOMETHING. you get the whole thing if you're balanced, G-dorf was not.
3. The remaining 2 pieces found the people chosen by legend or destiny or some other divine stuff like that. If Link had touched the triforce and his heart was imbalanced, he'd have gotten courage, zelda would have gotten wisdom, and ... probably Darnia would have gotten Power. Similarly if an imbalanced Zelda touched it, she'd get wisdom, link would get courage, and power would go to somebody. I'm still thinking Darnia. Ganondorf is by no means the triforce of power's default holder, he just got there first!!!
4. if you manage to get the other two people together, you can get their pieces by whatever means necessary, and at that point the triforce will have no choice but to obey you.
So you see, the gods aren't even involved here. They put the triforce down on earth as a symbol of providence (and in my personal fanon, the source of magic), and once they realized "oh right, people will try to nab our power" they hid it... but they couldn't stop someone from getting it... and once they've got a piece, it's theirs for life.. the "divine prank" is analogous to "luck"

[Raien]

This isn't the Matrix, though. I believe that the goddesses clearly made darkness alongside light. Even Link has a dark side. The Triforce does not distinguish between good and evil, it never has, so presumably the gods don't either, because they made both. You can't create light without creating darkness.

The power of Light that the Master Sword possesses is also called "the gods' power". Does that mean the Master Sword possesses the power of Darkness?

It is naive and patronising to consider that the concepts of good and evil were somehow invented by Christianity, along with the concepts of gods creating heroes to fight such evil.

The Zelda mythology has much closer connections to Greek, Hindu or maybe even Norse mythology.

Why is it naive? Isn't it obvious that the Heroes were made to fight evil when they appear almost every time evil attacks Hyrule?
Also, could you please provide some examples of connections to Greek & Hindu mythology for comparison?

My argument comes from visual clues. Language can be misconstrued. Translations can be faulty.

If the text is so obviously unreliable, does that mean we can ignore the words "divine prank" and the all the text about Ganondorf being empowered by malice? Your only argument for faulty translations is ALTTP, which we now have a proper translation for. Until we are told otherwise, TP's translation is correct and it is relevant to this argument.

PS: What visual clues are there to tell us that Ganondorf was empowered in Zant's presence?

Ganon was empowered by the Twili people. Sure you could interpret it as ancestors, but that doesn't necessarily make it correct. And as other people have pointed out, it was the Arbiter's Ground (actually the desert itself) that held the malice of the doomed inmates.

The quote can actually be interpreted to mean the Twilight Mirror possesses the malice without breaking any gramattical rules. Yet in Telma's bar (after beating the Arbiter's Grounds), Auru refers specifically to the "accursed mirror" again.

Furthermore, we know that the Twilight Mirror possesses evil power. And what is evil power alligned with (answer below)?

By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods. His abiding lust for power turned to purest malice... Perhaps that evil power has been passed down to Zant.

However, we see Ganon approach Zant when he was in his worst despair. This would make sense if he was floating out in a void, "asleep" in a sense. I can't imagine that Ganon would be there for so long, simply waiting for a Twili like Zant to come around. It makes sense if Ganon stayed within Zant, growing strong, feeding off of the suffering that Zant was causing, until he was able to be reborn in Hyrule with his full power. This is why he needed Zant. This is why he simply didn't discard Zant immediately. This is why it took so long for him to return to full power. It seems to fit into place pretty well.

1) Please show me where we see an empowerment during the cutscene where Ganondorf meets Zant.
2) Please explain to me why Ganondorf's form is not with power when we see it destroy the Fused Shadows.
3) Please explain to me why Ganondorf would need to be empowered twice in a row.

Also,

1) Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World (as stated by Midna). It was Zant that merged the Light World and Twilight Realm to make darkness there. No evidence of an empowerment. No evidence = speculation.

2) Ganondorf approaches Zant with the words used by the Triforce in ALTTP's manual. If the Triforce represents absolute power to Ganondorf, then Ganondorf ("Zant's god") represents absolute power to Zant. If Ganondorf was weak, as you suggest, then Zant would be under no illusion of power and there would be no point in those words.

3) We have no evidence that Ganondorf was in the Twilight Realm for more than a few years. Hence, the TP Sages (not the OoT Sages) were the ones who tried to kill him. Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm after all.

And I still don't get your viewpoint. So you're saying that darkness is independent of the goddesses. It's essentially on equal footing as light. However, why is darkness not represented by a powerful being or three? There are all of these gods and guardian forces working for the good of Hyrule, and yet we never see the antithesis of this. Why is there not something working for the bad of Hyrule? The two cannot be on equal footing if light always has powerful beings working for it while darkness is left to the hearts of evil men. So where did darkness come from? If darkness is a simple lack of light, then light can overpower darkness easily. You simply need light and darkness goes away. If darkness grew independent of the goddesses, then it would have to come from an equally powerful source.

You are presuming that the gods have control over all existence, yet we know that chaos existed before Hyrule was made. If chaos was not made by the gods, then how can the gods just unmake it at will? The gods can fight Darkness at the most with their own power; the power of Light, which they infused with the Master Sword and bathed Hyrule in.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 January 2007 - 01:50 PM.

[Evilsbane]

There seems to be great disagreement on where exactly Ganon gets his immense power from: some say it flows from the Sacred Realm, some say it's his own black magic, some say that he feeds off the evil in other people's souls (Zant, Agahnim), some say that it's just the ToP, whereas I say it's all of the above. As for TP specifically, I'd say that he got the power to break free from Zant, and the power to survive execution from the ToP's protection.

[Raien]

There seems to be great disagreement on where exactly Ganon gets his immense power from: some say it flows from the Sacred Realm, some say it's his own black magic, some say that he feeds off the evil in other people's souls (Zant, Agahnim), some say that it's just the ToP, whereas I say it's all of the above. As for TP specifically, I'd say that he got the power to break free from Zant, and the power to survive execution from the ToP's protection.

The object of Ganon's power is his evil magic (the power of Darkness). This evil magic is inherent to Ganon, as we see in OoT before he found any object of power. Objects of power, such as the Triforce, simply make that magic stronger. Objects made to fight Ganon, such as the Master Sword, were empowered with the ability to destroy that evil magic (the power to repel evil).

[Fyxe]

Why is it naive? Isn't it obvious that the Heroes were made to fight evil when they appear almost every time evil attacks Hyrule?

Yes, but what the hell has that got to do with Christianity?

Also, could you please provide some examples of connections to Greek & Hindu mythology for comparison?

Examples? Fine, if you really need them, but I recommend you do some actual research yourself. Greek mythology is filled with examples of the gods creating and favouring people as chosen heroes, and controlling their fates, almost in an identical manner to Link's role in Zelda. While there are many gods in Hindu, the main gods make up a trinity, but the trinity of the gods is much closer to the trinity in Zelda than the trinity in Christianity, which is vague and undefined. In Hindu, there is the creator, the destroyer, and the maintainer. The way the gods have their own talent and own 'job' is clearly paralleled by the gods in Zelda.

PS: What visual clues are there to tell us that Ganondorf was empowered in Zant's presence?

What clues are there that he was empowered by a vague word?

The quote can actually be interpreted to mean the Twilight Mirror possesses the malice without breaking any gramattical rules.

Yes, if you like to blatantly misread things.

Yet in Telma's bar (after beating the Arbiter's Grounds), Auru refers specifically to the "accursed mirror" again.

Big whoop, people think it's 'cursed', who cares? We know that already. Nothing to do with the malice of doomed inmates.

Furthermore, we know that the Twilight Mirror possesses evil power.

Since when?

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post. This argument about empowerment is utter nonsense and is totally misreading the dialogue.