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Proof as to why FSA cannot follow after ALttP


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#61 Fyxe

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 06:28 PM

Ugh. This is why I don't argue with you. You have no grasp of the concept of metaphor. You're a literalist to the nth degree. Your basic grasp of the storyline is flawed.

#62 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 06:30 PM

Ugh. This is why I don't argue with you. You have no grasp of the concept of metaphor. You're a literalist to the nth degree. Your basic grasp of the storyline is flawed.

I see a lot of things that are referred to as "the darkness" in FSA, and I don't think any of them are Ganon.

Just because I don't read into everything does not make my grasp of the storyline flawed, it makes it practical. If using "the darkness" as a blanket term makes my grasp flawed, then, quite honestly, you are all closed-minded, and will only interpret things the way YOU want.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 06:33 PM.


#63 Fyxe

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 06:31 PM

You just don't understand dialogue.

#64 Mad Scrub

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 06:42 PM

I agree with Fyxe. To seal away the darkness means to seal away the evil.

#65 Fyxe

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 06:44 PM

Oh. He edited. He says *I* am the close-minded one?

I laugh heartily.

#66 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 08:37 PM

I agree with Fyxe. To seal away the darkness means to seal away the evil.

The Dark World is an "evil realm." So it is "evil", and it therefore is sealed. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with this idea? If so, please explain why.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 08:37 PM.


#67 Mad Scrub

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:01 PM

Yes but it was Ganon who tainted the Sacred Realm and created the Dark World therefore he is the cause. If you seal Ganon in the Four Sword then he can do no harm until he breaks out. You can seal the entrances to the Sacred Realm/Darkworld if that's what you mean but you can't defeat it. Where would the Triforce go?

#68 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:07 PM

Yes but it was Ganon who tainted the Sacred Realm and created the Dark World therefore he is the cause. If you seal Ganon in the Four Sword then he can do no harm until he breaks out. You can seal the entrances to the Sacred Realm/Darkworld if that's what you mean but you can't defeat it. Where would the Triforce go?

The Dark World in FSA is not the Sacred Realm (hence why it doesn't behave like the one in ALttP), and Ganon in FSA doesn't have the Triforce (this should have been obvious).

Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 09:14 PM.


#69 Mad Scrub

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:19 PM

The Dark World in FSA is not the Sacred Realm, and Ganon in FSA doesn't have the Triforce.

The Sacred Realm became the Dark World when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in OoT. An evil person in the Sacred Realm may alone cause the change (I'll dig up some quotes later). I know Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA. The Sacred Realm/Dark World is where the Triforce resides unless taken.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 28 August 2006 - 09:26 PM.


#70 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:25 PM

The Sacred Realm became the Dark World when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in OoT. An evil person in the Sacred Realm may alone cause the change (I'll dig up some quotes later). I know Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA. The Sacred Realm/Dark World is where the Triforce would normally reside unless tampered with.

The Dark World disappears from the Sacred Realm when Ganon is killed, according to the Triforce itself.

However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.

If FSA comes after TWW or after ALttP, then the Dark World in FSA cannot be part of the Sacred Realm, since Ganon has been killed and the Dark World purged since the Triforce was [last] touched. I would liken the Dark World in FSA to the "gap between dimensions" spoken of in OoT. The same can perhaps be said for the Twilight Realm in TP, but, if that is so, then it is also connected directly to the Sacred Realm (hence, the transformation power akin to the transformation power in ALttP).

Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 09:28 PM.


#71 Jumbie

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:54 PM

The Dark World in FSA is not the Sacred Realm.

Yes it is. The very gameplay concept of a mirroring world suggests that it's the same dimension as the one in ALttP.

(hence why it doesn't behave like the one in ALttP)

Right, it doesn't behave like in ALttP, but that's because it is a Dark World only *in name*. It must be the Sacred Realm - not fully restored to its former quasi-void, but cleansed of the darkness and yet continuing to resemble Hyrule. No transforming into beasts, no monster armies patrolling - just a peaceful mirror image of Hyrule.

The Dark World disappears from the Sacred Realm when Ganon is killed, according to the Triforce itself.

And according to KnS, the Dark World in reality was brought back immediately afterwards. Moreover, there's a Dark Realm during OoX while Ganon is still dead as a brick, and a comparable dimension exists in AoL from where the new troups of evil are being recruited.

The same can perhaps be said for the Twilight Realm in TP, but, if that is so, then it is also connected directly to the Sacred Realm.

Let's just wait those 3 more months till TP tells us all about the Twilight Realm. If there is indeed a connection, we may have to reconsider some things, but at the moment there is no way of knowing.

Edited by Jumbie, 28 August 2006 - 09:59 PM.


#72 Fyxe

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:59 PM

I would question whether the Dark World in FSA is peaceful. It contains the strongest monsters (lots of Stalfos, for instance) and it appears to be consuming the Light World with it's malice (causing Kakariko to essentially be like the Village of Outcasts, and the Lost Woods to be akin to the Skull Woods). Floormasters reach out into the Light World and pull people into the Dark World where they get attacked by roaming Bubbles.

It's not as peaceful as people think it is. Just because it's sparce and not quite as barren as it was in ALttP doesn't make it a nice place to be.

It's far too similar to the Dark World in ALttP to be anything seperate either, especially when it has the same dang name.

Jumbie, not against your overall point, but the 'underworld' mentioned in AoL's backstory doesn't mean a huge deal other than just, well, sinister dark places like caves and dark forests or dungeons. However, it could be retconned to be that the evil place they're recruited from is the Dark World. If it still exists by then, that's definitely likely.

Edited by Fyxe, 28 August 2006 - 10:01 PM.


#73 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:06 PM

Yes it is. The very gameplay concept of a mirroring world suggests that it's the same dimension as the one in ALttP.

My explanation of the Dark World says that it exists independently of the Sacred Realm, and that, when Ganon controls the Sacred Realm, the Dark World simply assimilates the Sacred Realm into itself. Since they're all mirror worlds, this simply adds the properties of the Sacred Realm (reflection of the heart) to the Dark World. They literally become the same world.

Right, it doesn't behave like in ALttP, but that's because it is a Dark World only *in name*.

Let's ignore the quote I showed you that confirms that it is a "Dark World."

And according to KnS, the Dark World in reality was brought back immediately afterwards.

Yes. "Brought back." Meaning it left at some point. And supposedly Ganon dies again in KnS. So it probably left again.

Moreover, there's a Dark Realm during OoX while Ganon is still dead as a brick, and a comparable dimension exists in AoL from where the new troups of evil are being recruited.

Correct. But is this realm the Sacred Realm? You don't know, do you?

It's far too similar to the Dark World in ALttP to be anything seperate either, especially when it has the same dang name.

Does the Dark World HAVE to be the Sacred Realm?

Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 10:08 PM.


#74 Mad Scrub

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:18 PM

Does the Dark World HAVE to be the Sacred Realm?

Yes, now behave or you won't get a cookie :P.

#75 Fyxe

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:29 PM

Virtually identical Dark Worlds don't just pop up overnight, LionHarted. If you're going to argue for the existence of a seperate Dark World you might as well give some reasons for WHY there's one.

#76 LionHarted

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:29 PM

Yes, now behave or you won't get a cookie :P.

How can it be the Sacred Realm? The Dark World vanished from the Realm after every game FSA could possibly take place after.

Virtually identical Dark Worlds don't just pop up overnight, LionHarted. If you're going to argue for the existence of a seperate Dark World you might as well give some reasons for WHY there's one.

Because there has always been one?

I will banish it to the gap between dimensions!!

The sword-hilts of my servants who lurk deep in the darkness shall be the guideposts that point to me.

Link! Danger has struck Hyrule Castle once again! The darkness we thought vanquished has returned.

All of these quotes are made with regards to Phantom Ganon. Two of these quotes seem to suggest that the Phantom Ganon(s) exist on a plane other than the existant one (Hyrule), in some "darkness", or, as OoT would have it, a "gap between dimensions." Which dimensions could OoT possibly be referring to, but the Realm and Hyrule? FSA just calls Phantom Ganon's coming the coming of "the darkness", and uses this same terminology to describe the effects of the Dark World.

No transforming into beasts, no monster armies patrolling - just a peaceful mirror image of Hyrule.

O RLY?

It also grants you the power to see the shadowy Dark World...It may be that the Dark World is drawing them in. Save the villagers, Link! Bring light to their darkness!

This world is like a darkened mirror of your own...

He cast us into the Dark World, where we and the jewels were lost in shadow.


Edited by LionHarted, 28 August 2006 - 10:53 PM.


#77 spunky-monkey

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 05:16 AM

Golden Land = Dark World
Sacred Realm = Evil Realm

Please give it a rest already LionHarted. They are the SAME PLACE.

As ALttP will tell you, the reason why differences exist is because this world reflects what’s in the heart. One being pure and good... the other evil and twisted as Ganon is.

#78 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 07:59 AM

Golden Land = Dark World
Sacred Realm = Evil Realm

Golden Land = Sacred Realm
Dark World = Evil Realm

However, in both OoT and ALttP, they say that the Golden Land/Sacred Realm became the Dark World/Evil Realm, and that evil power flowed from the Dark World/Evil Realm. And, in ALttP, it says that "once the Sages' seal is broken, demonic power will come rushing in", which means that the power of the Dark World is not limited to the Sacred Realm. The game laters says that if Ganon is killed, the Dark World/Evil Realm will vanish. Ganon has been killed at some point before FSA, and the Ganon we see in FSA is a new Ganon, who has not yet touched the Triforce. If a Dark World/Evil Realm exists in FSA (which it does), it is not connected to the Sacred Realm.

The place where you are now standing is the world that was originally called the sacred land... However, now, the demons run rampant. It is, so to speak, a world of darkness.

The Golden Land is a "world of darkness" because the demons run rampant in it. The demons may not have been allowed to run rampant in it until Ganon touched the Triforce, but the "world of darkness" came about when the demons appeared. This would make any world in which demons run rampant a "world of darkness." I say that FSA's Dark World is not [necessarily] the Golden Land. I see that some enemies exist primarily in the Dark World. Because demons dwell in it, and because it is not positively confirmed to be the Golden Land from ALttP, I conclude that FSA's Dark World is a "world of darkness" that exists independently of the Golden Land.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 08:16 AM.


#79 Arturo

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 10:51 AM

Golden Land = Sacred Realm
Dark World = Evil Realm

However, in both OoT and ALttP, they say that the Golden Land/Sacred Realm became the Dark World/Evil Realm, and that evil power flowed from the Dark World/Evil Realm. And, in ALttP, it says that "once the Sages' seal is broken, demonic power will come rushing in", which means that the power of the Dark World is not limited to the Sacred Realm. The game laters says that if Ganon is killed, the Dark World/Evil Realm will vanish. Ganon has been killed at some point before FSA, and the Ganon we see in FSA is a new Ganon, who has not yet touched the Triforce. If a Dark World/Evil Realm exists in FSA (which it does), it is not connected to the Sacred Realm.

The Golden Land is a "world of darkness" because the demons run rampant in it. The demons may not have been allowed to run rampant in it until Ganon touched the Triforce, but the "world of darkness" came about when the demons appeared. This would make any world in which demons run rampant a "world of darkness." I say that FSA's Dark World is not [necessarily] the Golden Land. I see that some enemies exist primarily in the Dark World. Because demons dwell in it, and because it is not positively confirmed to be the Golden Land from ALttP, I conclude that FSA's Dark World is a "world of darkness" that exists independently of the Golden Land.



In KnS, as far as I remember, it's proved that the Dark World remains after ALttP. I cannot give you details, but Fyxe will surely be able to do so. It could remain as a mirror image of Hyrule, as Jumbie said (I think), but because the Triforce is not in it, the evil might be invading it. These are just ideas I have.

Edited by Arturo, 29 August 2006 - 10:51 AM.


#80 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:06 AM

In KnS, as far as I remember, it's proved that the Dark World remains after ALttP.

Assuming you're correct, is the Dark World in KnS confirmed to be a part of the Golden Land?

#81 Arturo

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:16 AM

Assuming you're correct, is the Dark World in KnS confirmed to be a part of the Golden Land?


Yes, it is. You fight Ganon there, so it must be the same Dark World.

#82 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:19 AM

Yes, it is. You fight Ganon there, so it must be the same Dark World.

You did not answer my question.

Does it say that it is part of the Golden Land?

#83 Arturo

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:31 AM

You did not answer my question.

Does it say that it is part of the Golden Land?


I have answred the question.

I don't know what it exactly says, because I haven't played the game. But I have seen picts. Also, if Ganon is there, and he hasn't moved since ALttP, he should be in the same DW. Look at this pict, it's quite clear it's the ALttP DW.

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#84 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:36 AM

I have answred the question.

No. You have not told me whether the game states that the Dark World in KnS is the Golden Land. You have told me that, based on your interpretations, it must be the same one. I did not ask for your interpretation. I asked for in-game text.

Also, if Ganon is there, and he hasn't moved since ALttP, he should be in the same DW.

Ganon died in ALttP, so he shouldn't be anywhere.

Look at this pict, it's quite clear it's the ALttP DW.

The Lost Woods from FSA is definitely not in the Golden Land, but, based on appearances, it looks exactly like the Skull Woods from ALttP's Dark World. Your picture confirms nothing.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 11:37 AM.


#85 Arturo

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:55 AM

No. You have not told me whether the game states that the Dark World in KnS is the Golden Land. You have told me that, based on your interpretations, it must be the same one. I did not ask for your interpretation. I asked for in-game text.


There is no text dump available, so I don't know. Anyway, even in the summary of the story on www.bszelda.zeldalegends.net it states it's the Golden Land.

Ganon died in ALttP, so he shouldn't be anywhere.


He has revived himself, using the Tablets, I think.

The Lost Woods from FSA is definitely not in the Golden Land, but, based on appearances, it looks exactly like the Skull Woods from ALttP's Dark World. Your picture confirms nothing.


My picture confirms because it shows Ganon's Tower. It's not something that resembles Ganon's Tower, but the very same tower (You fight Ganon inside of it). And where was that tower in ALttP? In the Dark World.

Anyway, I haven't played this game, so I don't know much. You can ask Fyxe, she will surely give you better answers.

#86 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:05 PM

There is no text dump available, so I don't know. Anyway, even in the summary of the story on www.bszelda.zeldalegends.net it states it's the Golden Land.

It also states that Ganon has entered it again, so it would have transformed again. This doesn't prove that the Dark World cannot exist independently of the Golden Land--just that, since Ganon has apparently entered the Golden Land, that it is the Dark World (again). In every game that features the Golden Land/Dark World as the same place, it is stated that Ganon has entered the Golden Land at some point within the events surrounding that game. Since this is not true of FSA, I see no reason to assume that the Dark World in FSA actually is the Golden Land.

EDIT: Even if I concede my point, all I need to show is that the portals into the Dark World/Golden Land were sealed in FSA, which I can still do through "sealed away the darkness" quote. The portals, having been created/opened by Ganon's power, are "dark", and therefore sealed.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 12:12 PM.


#87 Duke Serkol

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 03:08 PM

If when you guys say the Dark World in KnS (AST dammit :P) is the Golden Land you mean that it was the Golden Land... and if when you say Ganon entered it again you mean that he revived within it (I mean, he died in the Dark World, so it's reasonable that he'll revive in it... and it is his base of operations as well as his minions') then your statements in that regard are correct.

#88 Jumbie

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 03:10 PM

Yes. "Brought back." Meaning it left at some point. And supposedly Ganon dies again in KnS. So it probably left again.

Why should it? If the timeline makes more sense with the Dark World remaining (to appear in OoX, FSA and AoL), we just have to accept this without desperately clinging to that Triforce quote.

Correct. But is this realm the Sacred Realm? You don't know, do you?

Deep in my heart, I know ;)

Does the Dark World HAVE to be the Sacred Realm?

As long as everything implies it, yes.

How can it be the Sacred Realm? The Dark World vanished from the Realm after every game FSA could possibly take place after.

I saw it only vanish after ALttP, and return in KnS.

FSA just calls Phantom Ganon's coming the coming of "the darkness", and uses this same terminology to describe the effects of the Dark World.

Your Kaepora quote was later shown to refer to Jalhalla, not to Phantom Ganon.
Darkness =/= Dark World. If you switch off the lights, you'll find yourself in darkness. Are you therefore in another dimension?! Always keep in mind, darkness is actually an aspect of nature with often unpleasant connotations. In every other fantasy fiction, the bad guy will bring darkness to the land, but this doesn't have to go in hand with a parallel dimension involved.

The game laters says that if Ganon is killed, the Dark World/Evil Realm will vanish.
If a Dark World/Evil Realm exists in FSA (which it does), it is not connected to the Sacred Realm.
This would make any world in which demons run rampant a "world of darkness."

So you take it for granted that the Sacred Realm can only be turned into a world of darkness by someone using the Triforce? Bad, very bad. If demons exist in FSA's Dark World, why can't it just be the Sacred Realm with demons in it? Nowhere does it say that no other power but the Triforce can turn it into a Dark World. Ganon in FSA is oblivious to the Triforce, his Trident is all he needs to rule. So it could be that the Sacred Realm was turned into the Dark World by the Trident. Or we bring in the Dark Mirror again.

Because it is not positively confirmed to be the Golden Land from ALttP, I conclude that FSA's Dark World is a "world of darkness" that exists independently of the Golden Land.

Do you honestly think that Nintendo designed FSA's Dark World to be another dimensional plane next to Sacred Realm and Hyrule? If they had, I'm sure they would've called it something light "Twilight Realm" or so. ;)

I asked for in-game text.

Sure you do, as always <_< Btw, have you ever asked for in-game text of LoZ, and then were annoyed that there was hardly any? :lol:

EDIT:

If when you guys say the Dark World in KnS (AST dammit :P) is the Golden Land you mean that it was the Golden Land... and if when you say Ganon entered it again you mean that he revived within it (I mean, he died in the Dark World, so it's reasonable that he'll revive in it... and it is his base of operations as well as his minions') then your statements in that regard are correct.

Yes, we do assume all that :) Ah btw, could you tell us what actually happens to the Dark World after AST? I doubt there are credits to that game, but do we maybe see the overworld palette changing? I hope not..

Edited by Jumbie, 29 August 2006 - 03:19 PM.


#89 LionHarted

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 03:34 PM

Why should it? If the timeline makes more sense with the Dark World remaining (to appear in OoX, FSA and AoL), we just have to accept this without desperately clinging to that Triforce quote.

It doesn't make any more sense either way.

Your way just ignores an important quote, and mine doesn't.

I saw it only vanish after ALttP, and return in KnS.

If it vanished in ALttP, we can presume that it would vanish every time Ganon dies after having transformed it into the Dark World.

Your Kaepora quote was later shown to refer to Jalhalla, not to Phantom Ganon.

My mistake.

Darkness =/= Dark World.

Dark World = World of Darkness (according to ALttP).

Darkness = Darkness.

So you take it for granted that the Sacred Realm can only be turned into a world of darkness by someone using the Triforce?

That is how it was transformed in both OoT and ALttP, so, yes.

Ganon in FSA is oblivious to the Triforce, his Trident is all he needs to rule.

You have zero in-game basis for this statement.

Do you honestly think that Nintendo designed FSA's Dark World to be another dimensional plane next to Sacred Realm and Hyrule? If they had, I'm sure they would've called it something light "Twilight Realm" or so. ;)

"Gap between dimensions" from OoT--so, it's likened to the "Twilight" in that respect, yes.

Sure you do, as always <_< Btw, have you ever asked for in-game text of LoZ, and then were annoyed that there was hardly any?

No one ever makes assumptions about anything in LoZ.

Ah btw, could you tell us what actually happens to the Dark World after AST? I doubt there are credits to that game, but do we maybe see the overworld palette changing? I hope not..

I would presume that the same thing happens that happens in ALttP after Ganon dies.

Actually, looking at ALttP's ending--the Dark World does actually vanish (from the Sacred Realm).

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 03:48 PM.


#90 Fyxe

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 03:55 PM

If when you guys say the Dark World in KnS (AST dammit :P)


KnS until Nintendo gives it a proper English name. XP

I do the same with Fire Emblem games. FE6 I call Fuuin no Tsurugi even though it might be translated as 'Sword of Seals'... This is because with some games there is a fair amount of discrepancy.




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