399 replies to this topic

[Rogue Cucco]

I'm not saying there *couldn't* be a split, but the problem is that nobody has ever given a good reason for Ganondorf being defeated in the past at the same time as his future self is sealed.

Well, his future self could be sealed with the ToP, and then Zelda sends Link back in time afterwards. Now, Link puts the MS back after he's sent back- this causes a 'split,' or more accurately, Link will not experience that 'reality' anymore. Grandfather Paradox. The key is- to what time was Link sent back?

He had the ToC, so that means the Triforce as a whole was probably split, and Ganondorf was the only one who could do that. So, if Ganondorf was still in the SR, then Link would've just sealed him within the SR, and Ganny would be trapped- kinda setting up for some future episodes, right?

So, in the future, we have Ganondorf trapped in the ER, with the ToP, threatening to take revenge on their descendants, and there was just a big war and a sealing.

In the past, we have Ganondorf trapped in the SR, with the ToP, and he was only trapped because of the MS. There was no war, and the sealing was pretty much accidental. As far as the Hylians were concerned, Ganondorf just was 'defeated' somehow.

What I'm getting at is, the end of the future part of OOT seems to set up for ALTTP, and the end of the past part of OOT seems to set up for TWW. And, that coincides with the little Legend of the Fairy thing, and there is no mention of a war or a sealing in TWW.

What I'm saying is, even if Aunama (that's who said the whole two-endings thing, right?) was wrong, that doesn't mean he wasn't half-right.

Does that hold any ground?

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 31 May 2006 - 01:39 PM.

[Doopliss]

I think that is the most accepted split timeline theory... However, why do you think the Master Sword would be enough to seal Ganondorf? I mean, in the end, all the sages had to unite in order to seal him. The Master Sword is never mentioned. Actually, we don't know if the Master Sword was returned to the pedestal or not after Link returned to the past; TWW suggests it wasn't.

Edited by Subtle Breeze, 31 May 2006 - 02:07 PM.

[Rogue Cucco]

I think that is the most accepted split timeline theory... However, why do you think the Master Sword would be enough to seal Ganondorf? I mean, in the end, all the sages had to unite in order to seal him. The Master Sword is never mentioned. Actually, we don't know if the Master Sword was returned to the pedestal or not after Link returned to the past; TWW suggests it wasn't.

For the last sentence, well, a lot happened in between the Youth OOT ending and TWW, if that is in fact the order- freezing time, floods, MM. And, as for the MS blocking Ganondorf from exiting the SR... well, only the HoT or a good-hearted person could pick it up, right? If the MS could stop Ganondorf from getting in to the SR, I think it can stop him from getting out.

Agreed?

[Doopliss]

Agreed?

Sorry, yes. I think you may be right, after all. In TWW the Master Sword acted as a seal as well...

[Rogue Cucco]

Sorry, yes. I think you may be right, after all. In TWW the Master Sword acted as a seal as well...

Aww, don't be sorry. I'm just that brilliant.

Now, if we can find a way to prove when Link was sent back, then this idea will be pretty solid. The catcher is that Link could've obtained the ToC from his future, as he has items from the future in the past as well- or does he? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but... If it was after Ganondorf went into the SR, then Ganondorf would've been sealed, and then Zelda would be back at HC since things were safe. However, maybe Zelda sent Link back before the drawbridge incident... But I'm sure that there's something that disproves that.

And, some people say they can't see how a multiple timeline can exist- I can't see how a multiple timeline couldn't exist, unless the future would be erased...

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 31 May 2006 - 03:19 PM.

[Doopliss]

Now, if we can find a way to prove when Link was sent back, then this idea will be pretty solid. The catcher is that Link could've obtained the ToC from his future, as he has items from the future in the past as well- or does he? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but... If it was after Ganondorf went into the SR, then Ganondorf would've been sealed, and then Zelda would be back at HC since things were safe. However, maybe Zelda sent Link back before the drawbridge incident... But I'm sure that there's something that disproves that.

I think I can solve that. It seems like it's only Link's mind that travels, we could only expain it other way saying that he ages back, but we have no evidence to back that up. It could be argued that Link can use the items from the future, but this is possible if they travel through the Sacred Realm. If Link appears inside the Temple of Time in the end, this surely means that Zelda sent him back after he had opened the Sacred Realm, otherwise his body wouldn't be inside the Temple. This means, as well, that the Triforce had already split and that's why Link has the ToC.

Answering to your last paragraph, I think both of them are perfectly possible. I have explained how a single timeline would work nicely before. It is in this same thread, I think.

[Fyxe]

Well, his future self could be sealed with the ToP, and then Zelda sends Link back in time afterwards. Now, Link puts the MS back after he's sent back- this causes a 'split,' or more accurately, Link will not experience that 'reality' anymore. Grandfather Paradox. The key is- to what time was Link sent back?

He had the ToC, so that means the Triforce as a whole was probably split, and Ganondorf was the only one who could do that. So, if Ganondorf was still in the SR, then Link would've just sealed him within the SR, and Ganny would be trapped- kinda setting up for some future episodes, right?

The major flaw in this theory - why would putting the Master Sword back keep Ganon sealed? Wouldn't that negate the whole need for the Sage's Seal? Wouldn't Ganondorf had thought of that when he wandered into the Sacred Realm? Why can't the sword be removed from the other side? It's true that Ganon apparently couldn't touch it (or remove it, anyway), but the thing is, if it was that simple to seal him, then the Sage's Seal would never be required.

What I'm saying is, even if Aunama (that's who said the whole two-endings thing, right?) was wrong, that doesn't mean he wasn't half-right.

I'm not sure if it was wrong, and I have a feeling that TP is going to have more references to OoT than WW had. It may reveal how they're gonna retcon it all.

However, maybe Zelda sent Link back before the drawbridge incident... But I'm sure that there's something that disproves that.

It's not just Link's mind that goes back and forth, there's problems with that idea (he HAS to take items back from the future to the past and visa-versa otherwise paradoxes will occur, so we can assume his whole essense goes back in time [the Master Sword is a 'vessel' through which you can travel in time, that's what Sheik says] and 'de-ages' to cope with the paradox), but that's moot really, because there IS something that proves Link goes back after Ganondorf has already entered the Sacred Realm. Zelda tells Link to put the Master Sword back in the pedestal and close the Door of Time. If the Door of Time is open (and it is) and the sword removed (and it is only replaced after Link returns), then Ganondorf has already entered the Sacred Realm.

And I'm fairly sure Link can't take the Triforce of Courage back with him anyway. The Triforce surely wouldn't allow more than one Triforce piece to exist at any one time. You could end up with like, 20 Triforces if you went down that route.

And, some people say they can't see how a multiple timeline can exist- I can't see how a multiple timeline couldn't exist, unless the future would be erased...

Who says the future has to be erased just because Link goes back in time? He leaves Hyrule to go after Navi anyway, and Hyrule ages as it would have done, we can presume. We can argue that when Link first awakes as an adult, all the events that he goes back in time to do (the windmill stuff, collecting the Silver Guantlets, and returning and leaving for Termina) have already happened. The windmill thing has *definitely* happened.

Edited by Fyxe, 31 May 2006 - 06:02 PM.

[Rogue Cucco]

The major flaw in this theory - why would putting the Master Sword back keep Ganon sealed? Wouldn't that negate the whole need for the Sage's Seal? Wouldn't Ganondorf had thought of that when he wandered into the Sacred Realm? Why can't the sword be removed from the other side? It's true that Ganon apparently couldn't touch it (or remove it, anyway), but the thing is, if it was that simple to seal him, then the Sage's Seal would never be required.

Well, think about it- the Sage's Seal WAS never required. Link and Zelda could've gone, "Hey, Ganny, there's someone in the SR who wants you. Says he's got pizza!" And Ganondorf would've gone, "Pizza? Ho boy!" He then runs in the SR, and Link puts on the MS. Then, Ganondof doesn't have a portal to return to the Light Realm with. But at least he has pizza. Thing is, Ganondorf wasn't quite that stupid.
In fact, the whole point of the game was that they didn't need the Sage's Seal- if Link would've just left the MS there, Ganondorf wouldn't be able to do a thing. So, the Sage's Seal wasn't required. Unless you have anything else to add, of course!

I'm not sure if it was wrong, and I have a feeling that TP is going to have more references to OoT than WW had. It may reveal how they're gonna retcon it all.

Yes, I heavily agree- I'm afraid to say this stuff for the spoiler issue, but I have a feeling part of TP will have Link take out the MS and release Ganondorf. Or, Ganondorf will be slowly chipping away at the lining between the ER and the Light Realm, making the TR, since he can't get through the old fashioned way.

It's not just Link's mind that goes back and forth, there's problems with that idea (he HAS to take items back from the future to the past and visa-versa otherwise paradoxes will occur, so we can assume his whole essense goes back in time [the Master Sword is a 'vessel' through which you can travel in time, that's what Sheik says] and 'de-ages' to cope with the paradox), but that's moot really, because there IS something that proves Link goes back after Ganondorf has already entered the Sacred Realm. Zelda tells Link to put the Master Sword back in the pedestal and close the Door of Time. If the Door of Time is open (and it is) and the sword removed (and it is only replaced after Link returns), then Ganondorf has already entered the Sacred Realm.

Well, thanks for proving that Link had to have been sent back to after the drawbridge incident for me- I'm lazy...

And I'm fairly sure Link can't take the Triforce of Courage back with him anyway. The Triforce surely wouldn't allow more than one Triforce piece to exist at any one time.

Okay, so, I guess we know for sure where Link was at the end of OOT- right after Ganondorf split the Triforce, which likely means he's trapped inside, right?

You could end up with like, 20 Triforces if you went down that route.

Hmm... the Decaduoforce... Eeeeehhhxcellent....

Who says the future has to be erased just because Link goes back in time? He leaves Hyrule to go after Navi anyway, and Hyrule ages as it would have done, we can presume. We can argue that when Link first awakes as an adult, all the events that he goes back in time to do (the windmill stuff, collecting the Silver Guantlets, and returning and leaving for Termina) have already happened. The windmill thing has *definitely* happened.

Yes, you can argue that... but how does Link end up back in the SR? And how would Ganondorf escape from the SR if Link blocked his path out with the MS? Do you expect Ganny to just make a portal appear at his will? (Well, actually, he could do that... ) With the Windmill and the Spirit Temple incident, all those things can have Link sleep through the SR, but at the Young OOT ending, Link isn't sleeping in the SR.

Of course, I suppose TP could tell a story about how Link returned from Termina to take up the MS again... but, it could tell a much different story also!

[Fyxe]

Well, think about it- the Sage's Seal WAS never required. Link and Zelda could've gone, "Hey, Ganny, there's someone in the SR who wants you. Says he's got pizza!" And Ganondorf would've gone, "Pizza? Ho boy!" He then runs in the SR, and Link puts on the MS. Then, Ganondof doesn't have a portal to return to the Light Realm with. But at least he has pizza. Thing is, Ganondorf wasn't quite that stupid.
In fact, the whole point of the game was that they didn't need the Sage's Seal- if Link would've just left the MS there, Ganondorf wouldn't be able to do a thing. So, the Sage's Seal wasn't required. Unless you have anything else to add, of course!

I do indeed. You may have noticed that the plan for sealing Ganon required forcing him into the Sacred Realm in the first place - then sealing it. The sages open it and force him in there - but why the seal? Why not use the Master Sword as the seal? Why go to the effort of making a hugely complex bloodline-based seal when a sword would do? Why not do the sword thing then add an extra seal afterwards, etc.? Basically, there's no indication that the sword alone would keep Ganondorf there.

Yes, I heavily agree- I'm afraid to say this stuff for the spoiler issue, but I have a feeling part of TP will have Link take out the MS and release Ganondorf. Or, Ganondorf will be slowly chipping away at the lining between the ER and the Light Realm, making the TR, since he can't get through the old fashioned way.

It's never explained how Ganon escapes from the seal in the backstory of TWW, so yes, hopefully it covers that to some extent.

Okay, so, I guess we know for sure where Link was at the end of OOT- right after Ganondorf split the Triforce, which likely means he's trapped inside, right?

Well, inside, but no indication he's trapped. He's probably busy taking it over.

Yes, you can argue that... but how does Link end up back in the SR?

Eh? When?

And how would Ganondorf escape from the SR if Link blocked his path out with the MS? Do you expect Ganny to just make a portal appear at his will? (Well, actually, he could do that... )

Since the only thing stopping him from creating an exit at Hyrule Castle in ALttP was the Sage's Seal, then I don't see how the Master Sword is going to stop him from doing just that. Heck, for all we know he has the Magic Mirror. Doubt that, though. Nah, he'd just force open a portal wherever the hell he wanted.

With the Windmill and the Spirit Temple incident, all those things can have Link sleep through the SR, but at the Young OOT ending, Link isn't sleeping in the SR.

Who says he isn't? Ok, this is actually getting too confusing for me at the moment. Lets figure this out.

1 - Link draws the Master Sword and is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Bam. He's there for seven years and nothing else happens to him until he wakes up.

2 - Later, after awakening, Adult Link puts the Master Sword back, thereby travelling back in time. He 'de-ages', but basically travels back in the traditional time-travel sense, taking back items, Rupees and other things. There is still a version of himself sealed in the Sacred Realm. While this happens, Adult Link in the future doesn't exist. The new version of Young Link who's running about collecting items from the past then draws the Master Sword again, but is NOT sealed for seven years, because otherwise you'd end up with two Links waking up at once. Instead, he appears sometime after Adult Link travelled back in time, dependant on how long he spent in the past, presumably. This time he appears with the items he gained in the past. This happens a few times. All the stuff he does in the past has already happened when he first woke up, but he did not wake up with all the items he collected from the past. Convential time travel is the only way to explain this.

3 - After beating Ganon, Link is sent back in time by Zelda. If we assume this is no different from being sent back normally, then there are technically two Links - one still sealed for seven years in the Sacred Realm, and one living out the seven years he missed out on.

Of course, I suppose TP could tell a story about how Link returned from Termina to take up the MS again... but, it could tell a much different story also!

The Link in TP is a farmboy, so... Nope. ¬.¬ Doubt that. It's also set 'decades' after OoT, so this will be after the Link from OoT/MM has gone.

[Rogue Cucco]

I do indeed. You may have noticed that the plan for sealing Ganon required forcing him into the Sacred Realm in the first place - then sealing it. The sages open it and force him in there - but why the seal? Why not use the Master Sword as the seal? Why go to the effort of making a hugely complex bloodline-based seal when a sword would do? Why not do the sword thing then add an extra seal afterwards, etc.? Basically, there's no indication that the sword alone would keep Ganondorf there.

Mmm... good point. But, I thought that the MS could only seal up the SR if it was in the PoT (Pedastal) and... it might look goofy if they waltzed back to the ToT to put it back in, and Ganon would've escaped. I was under the impression that Link hit Ganon with the MS, then the Sages opened up the portal in a non-ToT area, sent Ganon in, and closed it. If they could've lured him into the SR, then they would've.

Wait! In fact, that was the original plan I think... Zelda gave Link the light arrows, and the plan was to lure Ganon into the SR... and, they were in the ToT, so she was implying that the 'final battle' was supposed to take place in the ToT.

But then, Ganon brought her to his Tower, and the tables were turned, new game plan.

Of course, that's not saying they wouldn't've used the Sages to Seal as opposed to the MS, because Link would've been in the SR... I'm confused.

Well, inside, but no indication he's trapped. He's probably busy taking it over.

Well, that works well with the idea I had in the first place. In fact...

I think TP will involve Ganondorf escaping from the Evil Realm he was put into when Link was sent back in time after Zelda sent him back.

Eh? When?

Oh, I was just pondering the thing about how Link would go from MM to the SR. But, you told me that with the little multiple-Link deal.

Since the only thing stopping him from creating an exit at Hyrule Castle in ALttP was the Sage's Seal, then I don't see how the Master Sword is going to stop him from doing just that. Heck, for all we know he has the Magic Mirror. Doubt that, though. Nah, he'd just force open a portal wherever the hell he wanted.

But, what if Hyrule Castle in ALTTP was somehow sealed with the MS? Some Sages come out, build a pedastal, use their powers, then Link places the MS from the Lost Woods into the pedastal- Ta da! Ganon's sealed again. Well, that's just an idea... but, if Ganondorf couldn't "force open a portal wherever the hell he wanted" into the SR, then how would he do that to get out of the SR? ToP?

Who says he isn't? Ok, this is actually getting too confusing for me at the moment. Lets figure this out.

1 - Link draws the Master Sword and is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Bam. He's there for seven years and nothing else happens to him until he wakes up.

2 - Later, after awakening, Adult Link puts the Master Sword back, thereby travelling back in time. He 'de-ages', but basically travels back in the traditional time-travel sense, taking back items, Rupees and other things. There is still a version of himself sealed in the Sacred Realm. While this happens, Adult Link in the future doesn't exist. The new version of Young Link who's running about collecting items from the past then draws the Master Sword again, but is NOT sealed for seven years, because otherwise you'd end up with two Links waking up at once. Instead, he appears sometime after Adult Link travelled back in time, dependant on how long he spent in the past, presumably. This time he appears with the items he gained in the past. This happens a few times. All the stuff he does in the past has already happened when he first woke up, but he did not wake up with all the items he collected from the past. Convential time travel is the only way to explain this.

3 - After beating Ganon, Link is sent back in time by Zelda. If we assume this is no different from being sent back normally, then there are technically two Links - one still sealed for seven years in the Sacred Realm, and one living out the seven years he missed out on.

I never really thought in the 'dimension' that there would be two Links... I thought that would be like two Triforces. But, whatever it is, it doesn't really affect the basis of my above stated idea, that the Young ending of OOT leads into TWW instead of the more popular theory that the adult ending of OOT leads into TWW.

The Link in TP is a farmboy, so... Nope. ¬.¬ Doubt that. It's also set 'decades' after OoT, so this will be after the Link from OoT/MM has gone.

I'll put the TP stuff in spoilers, but it's nothing worse than what you just put, Fyxe, so hop in.

Oh, no, you've misunderstood me, sorry. I meant as backstory, which would be especially vivid if this is only decades after OOT. You see, I'm sure there would be some old guy going, "Ehh... and then... the Hero of Time was sent back in time by the Princess of Destiny... and... Ehh... the Hero of Time was still in the Sacred Realm, but the one from the future went into Termina, and did lots of stuff..." and, the 'other story' I was talking about would go something like, "Ehh... the Hero of Time had many adventures as an adult, but alas, he became a child again and changed history. The events of his adulthood are no mere thoughts, but we still hold true his accounts of defeating Ganon. Now, Ganon is locked in the Sacred Realm with the Master Sword in the Temple of Time, but lately the very fabric of the Sacred Realm is growing weaker, and we can feel his presence..." Of course, that was all speculation, but I think that's what they're gonna do if they want to make the timeline clearer.

I hate it when people think you're stupid.

[Mad Scrub]

And I'm fairly sure Link can't take the Triforce of Courage back with him anyway. The Triforce surely wouldn't allow more than one Triforce piece to exist at any one time. You could end up with like, 20 Triforces if you went down that route.

Not necessarily. There would be two ToC's and two Link's for a time. Say adult Princess Zelda sends Link back in time to say just after he met child Princess Zelda for the first time. There would be two ToC's and two Link's in Hyrule at once until the Link that had just met Zelda for the first time collects all three Spiritual Stones and travels through time seven years. That leaves one Link and two ToC's. I'll also point out that since the Link that has just come back from the future has come to a point in time just after his former self spoke with child Princess Zelda for the first time, child Princess Zelda is still in possession of the OoT which the HoT return's at a later date. Now when the HoT is lured into Termina by Skull Kid the ToC splits into eight shards. The event's in Hyrule carry out the same as before as it was destined to. The ToC that was split due to the HoT being lured into Termina remains while the Hero of this Time takes his ToC with him to the past. I hope everyone can understand this !

Now the problems with this theory. The DoT shouldn't be open at the end of OoT however you could put that down to magic as we don't see Link physically place the MS in the PoT. Child Princess Zelda would've been informed by the HoT about what Ganondorf's true intentions were and what was going to happen in seven years time so why didn't she try and stop it from happening? I don't know, that's why I said it was destined to happen. TWW refers to the events of both OoT and MM. If Link could simply change Hyrule's future and seal Ganondorf in the SR by placing the MS in the PoT then The Legend of The Fairy shouldn't be mentioned in TWW. And TWW is set after the adult ending of OoT as indicated by the HoT statue and the stained glass windows in Hyrule Castle. Phew! What a mouthful!

[Fyxe]

Wait! In fact, that was the original plan I think... Zelda gave Link the light arrows, and the plan was to lure Ganon into the SR... and, they were in the ToT, so she was implying that the 'final battle' was supposed to take place in the ToT.

Whenever they say 'lure' they generally mean 'force', basically distract him into fighting and weaken him, then force him in. But, apart from that, if Zelda HAD intended to the final battle to take place in the ToT (I don't think she did, though, I think she knew they would have to go to Ganon's Castle), why would the Sage's Seal be needed at all by your reckoning? Anyway, it's the Sage's Seal that *lasts*, not the Master Sword. The Master Sword is moved to the Lost Woods (or to Hyrule Castle) but the seal remains through time. The seal is what's needed to keep Ganon there, not the sword.

But, what if Hyrule Castle in ALTTP was somehow sealed with the MS? Some Sages come out, build a pedastal, use their powers, then Link places the MS from the Lost Woods into the pedastal- Ta da! Ganon's sealed again.

Except he casually returns it to the Lost Woods. ¬.¬ The Master Sword appears completely unrelated to the seal in ALttP.

Well, that's just an idea... but, if Ganondorf couldn't "force open a portal wherever the hell he wanted" into the SR, then how would he do that to get out of the SR? ToP?

Presumably. Don't ask me. ALttP just proves that as long as the Sage's Seal is not there, he can easily do such a thing given enough time. Heck, even WITH their seal he can partially do it.

I never really thought in the 'dimension' that there would be two Links... I thought that would be like two Triforces. But, whatever it is, it doesn't really affect the basis of my above stated idea, that the Young ending of OOT leads into TWW instead of the more popular theory that the adult ending of OOT leads into TWW.

There's a problem with this, and it is thus...

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. One day, a
man of great evil found this power and took it for himself, and with it at his
command, he spread darkness across the kingdom. But then...just as all hope had
died, a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding a blade
that repelled evil, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This boy,
who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The
boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend.

Now, in TWW, they have experienced Ganon 'spreading darkness' across the kingdom, then being defeated by a boy clothed in green who 'appeared from nowhere' and had travelled through time (hence the appearing from nowhere, that's WHY they knew him as the Hero of Time). He weilded the blade and defeated Ganon.

Ganon taking over Hyrule with the Triforce of Power, Link appearing from seemingly nowhere, and Link weilding the Master Sword to fight Ganon, none of these things happened in the Young Link world. The backstory for TWW is basically the adult events of OoT, not the Young Link events.

I'll put the TP stuff in spoilers, but it's nothing worse than what you just put, Fyxe, so hop in.

Oh, no, you've misunderstood me, sorry. I meant as backstory, which would be especially vivid if this is only decades after OOT. You see, I'm sure there would be some old guy going, "Ehh... and then... the Hero of Time was sent back in time by the Princess of Destiny... and... Ehh... the Hero of Time was still in the Sacred Realm, but the one from the future went into Termina, and did lots of stuff..." and, the 'other story' I was talking about would go something like, "Ehh... the Hero of Time had many adventures as an adult, but alas, he became a child again and changed history. The events of his adulthood are no mere thoughts, but we still hold true his accounts of defeating Ganon. Now, Ganon is locked in the Sacred Realm with the Master Sword in the Temple of Time, but lately the very fabric of the Sacred Realm is growing weaker, and we can feel his presence..." Of course, that was all speculation, but I think that's what they're gonna do if they want to make the timeline clearer.

I didn't bother putting it in spoilers because it's not really spoilers, everyone will find out within five seconds of switching on the game that Link's a farmboy. That's if they don't already know...

It would be nice if they gave us an easy answer like a conventient old man. ¬.¬ Doubt it though, unfortunately.

I hate it when people think you're stupid.

Who thinks you're stupid? *Confused*

Mad Scrub... I am very confused by all that. XP

[Rogue Cucco]

Whenever they say 'lure' they generally mean 'force', basically distract him into fighting and weaken him, then force him in. But, apart from that, if Zelda HAD intended to the final battle to take place in the ToT (I don't think she did, though, I think she knew they would have to go to Ganon's Castle), why would the Sage's Seal be needed at all by your reckoning? Anyway, it's the Sage's Seal that *lasts*, not the Master Sword. The Master Sword is moved to the Lost Woods (or to Hyrule Castle) but the seal remains through time. The seal is what's needed to keep Ganon there, not the sword.

Sigh... magic is not the simplest thing. I didn't think the Sages Seal was needed if they were able to push him into the portal to the SR and close it with the MS, but I thought that what they needed the Sages for was to open the portal where there usually isn't one (Ganon's Tower) and close it without the MS. But, you seem to have some good reasons against that. I'm still kinda leaning to my 'the MS can keep Ganon in' idea.

Except he casually returns it to the Lost Woods. ¬.¬ The Master Sword appears completely unrelated to the seal in ALttP.

Of course it's unrelated, but I'm saying, it was related in OOT- so, if the Sages presumably made the MS in the first place, then they could've (presumably ) did some sort of magical thing, like Ganon can do, and use the MS to block the Evil Realm, just as it did in OOT. The moral of the story is, we shouldn't say that the MS can't block the SR because it doesn't in ALTTP- As you said, it's completely unrelated at the time. However, let's say the MS is in the PoT. You can't get in the SR, so what does it look like inside the SR? Is there another MS right where Link always is in OOT, or can you just not use that blue crystal elevator thing?

Presumably. Don't ask me. ALttP just proves that as long as the Sage's Seal is not there, he can easily do such a thing given enough time. Heck, even WITH their seal he can partially do it.

There's a problem with this, and it is thus... blah blah blah... Now, in TWW, they have experienced Ganon 'spreading darkness' across the kingdom, then being defeated by a boy clothed in green who 'appeared from nowhere' and had travelled through time (hence the appearing from nowhere, that's WHY they knew him as the Hero of Time). He weilded the blade and defeated Ganon.

Ganon taking over Hyrule with the Triforce of Power, Link appearing from seemingly nowhere, and Link weilding the Master Sword to fight Ganon, none of these things happened in the Young Link world. The backstory for TWW is basically the adult events of OoT, not the Young Link events.

Hmm... Well, Ganondorf did spread a lot of darkness, with the Deku Tree, the Goron starvation, Jabu Jabu, killing the Ocarina brothers, hypnotizing Nabooru, and the assault on Hyrule Castle- there was a dead soldier, so that proves it was an actual battle. Of course, he doesn't have the ToP, and that kills my idea... However, still, in my idea, Link did travel through time in the Young part, because he experienced everything that happened in the future. But still, with all that stuff...

So, is it impossible that people still hated Ganondorf, so they were glad that Link defeated him in the 'future that never happened,' and took it as 'fact' because... even if it didn't actually happen in their 'existence,' it happened in Link's separate 'existence,' and... uh... (must not go insane) so basically, they took in Link's account of defeating Ganondorf in the future-that-never-happened because that resulted in Ganondorf being 'subdued' in the past.

Yes, that is fanfictiony, but I hear all sorts of wierd stuff about 'well Ganondorf probably went to prison in the past,' or 'well Ganondorf was sent into the SR in both the adult and young times.' And, is it as crazy as Mad Scrub's... thing?

I didn't bother putting it in spoilers because it's not really spoilers, everyone will find out within five seconds of switching on the game that Link's a farmboy. That's if they don't already know...

It would be nice if they gave us an easy answer like a conventient old man. ¬.¬ Doubt it though, unfortunately.

I heard something about the producers saying that TP would start to make the storyline have more sense, but that was probably in that April Fools interview... right?

Who thinks you're stupid? *Confused*

Mad Scrub... I am very confused by all that. XP

Well, you thought that I thought that TP would take place in OOT's time, and that would have made me look like a 'n00b,' which I am, but, whatever- point is, I know where TP comes in, and I don't think it's in OOT or after TWW like the stereotypical 20-posts guy.

And I am very confused by all that too, Mad Scrub.

Oh, just remembered, some people in TWW's time wouldn't even think the account at the beginning of TWW is real, so how different is it if TWW's backstory only happened in a separate existence? Just throwing that out there.

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 01 June 2006 - 11:43 AM.

[Mad Scrub]

Mad Scrub... I am very confused by all that. XP

And I am very confused by all that too, Mad Scrub.

I thought you might be . This article should give you a clearer understanding of what I meant. It was Vazor who originally introduced me to this theory. Showsni doesn't like it though.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 01 June 2006 - 09:55 PM.

[Rogue Cucco]

I thought you might be . This article should give you a clearer understanding of what I meant. It was Vazor who originally introduced me to this theory. Showsni doesn't like it though.

Oh Din... no... not that one again. Alright, I can understand what's going on alright, but I've never been much of a double people person, at least not in this magical OOT scenario. However, I can see it happening... it would have been a cool scene, actually.

Link: Hey Link. Aim for the tail.

Link: Oh, hey Li--- wha?

Well, anyways, I guess both of them can work as far as I can see... but I can't see very far.

[D~N]

Well, the sages were needed to first get into the castle when they made the bridge, so they at least have a purpose.

But here's how i think of it; The SR is a room, and the real world is another room. There's a door in between them. Ironically enough, in the game, there is the door of time between them. That is the easy way to get in and out of it; waltzing through the 'door' However, the Ms acts as a lock to the door, and remains in lock postion as long as it's in the pedestal, no matter where the pedestal is located. The sages seal are like boarding up the door with wood and chaining it closed. Simply the master sword isn't enough to hold someone like ganon in there, especially with th ToP. Now, i have yet to read a lot of what was posted here, so perhaps I'm repeating what someone else said in my poorly explained analogy, but that's where I stand.

[Hero of Slime]

What do you mean you are not a double people person? Your timeline involves two realities where everything is double.

[Mad Scrub]

He means he doesn't like the idea of two Link's existing at the same time in the same universe.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 01 June 2006 - 10:16 PM.

[Rogue Cucco]

What do you mean you are not a double people person? Your timeline involves two realities where everything is double.

Heh, good one- but my timeline involves two realities where everything is single. Because, reality where Ganondorf ruled for 7 years isn't really reality in the reality where Link went to Termina, and therefore there is one of everything. It's not like anything happened in the future ending that happened in the past ending, because the future ending never happened, except in Link's memories.

And, Zelda did say it would close the paths between times or something... right?

Uhh, moral of the story is, if you see a time machine, don't touch it.

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 01 June 2006 - 10:19 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

MM was originally going to be called Gaiden meaning side quest or side story. Wouldn't that imply that MM took place sometime during OoT? If there were two Link's in Hyrule at the time (one being the HoT's former self and the other being the HoT who had fulfilled his destiny and saved future Hyrule) that is.

[Rogue Cucco]

MM was originally going to be called Gaiden meaning side quest or side story. Wouldn't that imply that MM took place sometime during OoT? If there were two Link's in Hyrule at the time (one being the HoT's former self and the other being the HoT who had fulfilled his destiny and saved future Hyrule) that is.

Well, of course it takes place 'during' OoT- if it's after the Door of Time was opened, after Link got the ToC, and then Link went to Termina... so, with yout time loop, it would be while primary Link is sleeping, and with my split, it would be after the young ending but during Link's sleep in the alternate events.

[Doopliss]

2 - Later, after awakening, Adult Link puts the Master Sword back, thereby travelling back in time. He 'de-ages', but basically travels back in the traditional time-travel sense, taking back items, Rupees and other things. There is still a version of himself sealed in the Sacred Realm. While this happens, Adult Link in the future doesn't exist. The new version of Young Link who's running about collecting items from the past then draws the Master Sword again, but is NOT sealed for seven years, because otherwise you'd end up with two Links waking up at once. Instead, he appears sometime after Adult Link travelled back in time, dependant on how long he spent in the past, presumably. This time he appears with the items he gained in the past. This happens a few times. All the stuff he does in the past has already happened when he first woke up, but he did not wake up with all the items he collected from the past. Convential time travel is the only way to explain this.

Actually, I have explained before how this could work with my mind swap hypothesis. Instead of simply travelling to the past, Link's mind swaps places with his child mind, so there are never two bodies or minds existing at the same time. While adult Link is doing everything with young Link's body in the past, Young Link's mind is sleeping in the future. To solve the items problems we could say that the travel through the Sacred Realm. In the end, Zelda sends Link back exactly seven years, he goes to Termina and returns to Hyrule, he travels to the future (his young mind is still sleeping there) and continues with his normal life with an adult body in the future. There you have it: singl timeline with no paradoxes.

[Fyxe]

To solve the items problems we could say that the travel through the Sacred Realm.

How exactly would this work?

In the end, Zelda sends Link back exactly seven years, he goes to Termina and returns to Hyrule, he travels to the future (his young mind is still sleeping there) and continues with his normal life with an adult body in the future. There you have it: singl timeline with no paradoxes.

Why would he travel back to the future when he was sent back specifically to relive the seven years in the past that he missed? That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason for him to do that and it makes the whole ending where Zelda sends him back pointless.

Edited by Fyxe, 03 June 2006 - 06:12 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

After MM, the Hero of Time fades into legend.

You mean the Adult Timeline, because in the Child Timeline the Hero of Time doesn't exist. In the 'primary' timeline Link's adventures and battles that happened in that 'future Hyrule' exist only as stories or fairytales:

In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend.
A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

In the end, Zelda sends Link back exactly seven years, he goes to Termina and returns to Hyrule, he travels to the future (his young mind is still sleeping there) and continues with his normal life with an adult body in the future. There you have it: singl timeline with no paradoxes.

Zelda closed off 'the road between times' so Link cannot return to that alternate timeline even with the Master Sword. This mind swap hypothesis doesn't work because to the gamer's perspective Link is still Link so age is irrelevant.

Edited by Ricky, 03 June 2006 - 08:34 AM.

[Showsni]

Link just grows up normally after Zelda sends him back. Once he reaches the time when his child mentality first arrives from the past, he goes to the Temple of Time, Y. Link's consciousness inhabits his body and his consciousness jumps forwards to inhabit his slightly older body from just after Zelda's sent his child mind back. Simple.

Items moving about can be explained in a rather unrealistic and convoluted way thusly:

Taking items to the past:
Any item Link can get as an adult and take back to when he's a child starts the game in the SR.
Once Link's consciousness has experienced obtaining it from wherever as an adult, the SR releases it to his body whenever he wakes up in the past.
After Zelda sends him back the item is moved from the SR to its adult resting place.

Taking items to the future:
When Link first wakes as an adult, every item he can get as a child is in the SR.
The SR only releases these items to his body after his consciousness has experienced obtaining them.
When Zelda sends him back, the items are moved from their child resting places to the SR.

See? Unnecessarily complicated explanation that nevertheless works. Or else we just blame those crazy gameplay mechanics.

[Rogue Cucco]

Link just grows up normally after Zelda sends him back. Once he reaches the time when his child mentality first arrives from the past, he goes to the Temple of Time, Y. Link's consciousness inhabits his body and his consciousness jumps forwards to inhabit his slightly older body from just after Zelda's sent his child mind back. Simple.

Items moving about can be explained in a rather unrealistic and convoluted way thusly:

Taking items to the past:
Any item Link can get as an adult and take back to when he's a child starts the game in the SR.
Once Link's consciousness has experienced obtaining it from wherever as an adult, the SR releases it to his body whenever he wakes up in the past.
After Zelda sends him back the item is moved from the SR to its adult resting place.

Taking items to the future:
When Link first wakes as an adult, every item he can get as a child is in the SR.
The SR only releases these items to his body after his consciousness has experienced obtaining them.
When Zelda sends him back, the items are moved from their child resting places to the SR.

See? Unnecessarily complicated explanation that nevertheless works. Or else we just blame those crazy gameplay mechanics.

But then, there is another problem, a problem that can only be solved with the unnecessarily complicated explanation- how TWW and ALTTP exist in the same existence. If complicated explanations work, then that saves the entire timeline, not just the OOT ending(s) part.

And, TWW talks more about MM and stuff that Link would remember from the OOT future in TWW's backstory. ALTTP talks more about the Sealing War and stuff that Link wouldn't remember from the OOT future, what happened in those 7 years of sleep. Because, there must have been a big war where Hyrule Castle Town was destroyed and Hyrule Castle was replaced with Ganon's Tower, stuff Link wouldn't tell to the Royal Family in the Young ending, but stuff actual people in the Adult ending would remember and talk about. See what I mean?

And, no matter how goofy 'split timelines,' as they've come to be called, are, we can not forget that they were directly referenced by Aonuma and other producers, and those quotes are where the idea comes from in the first place. So, it's not some silly thing fans came up with theirselves. They were mentioned by the producers, and they make the timeline work no matter how unnecisarily complicated they are, so I say they should be taken seriously...

Eh, but, who am I, anyway?

Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has
two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This
game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon
at the end of Ocarina.

-And yes, I know that contradicts my theory, but what if he was only half wrong? They changed the setting in mid-production? So, instead, if he said this later, he would say, "This game, The Wind Waker, takes place hundreds of years after the young Link returns from defeating Ganon at the end of Ocarina." And, as you can see, they even got the "hundred" wrong as opposed to "hundreds."

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 03 June 2006 - 10:37 PM.

[Doopliss]

Why would he travel back to the future when he was sent back specifically to relive the seven years in the past that he missed? That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason for him to do that and it makes the whole ending where Zelda sends him back pointless.

Showsni has explained the items thing fairly well. Link can recover the lost time in Hyrule, he just has to make sure he returns to the future before Link awakes in the future for the first time to avoid paradoxes. I know the passage between times (or something like that) was closed, but can't it be opened again? Actually, it must be in a single timeline theory because otherwise Link wouldn't be able to travel to the past.

[spunky-monkey]

Link just grows up normally after Zelda sends him back. Once he reaches the time when his child mentality first arrives from the past, he goes to the Temple of Time, Y. Link's consciousness inhabits his body and his consciousness jumps forwards to inhabit his slightly older body from just after Zelda's sent his child mind back. Simple.

Time travel does not affect Link that way. Link battles through time and as a result he is always growing mentally through experience BUT he is limited physically to his 2 main forms - child & adult.

Once Link's consciousness has experienced obtaining it from wherever as an adult, the SR releases it to his body whenever he wakes up in the past.
The SR only releases these items to his body after his consciousness has experienced obtaining them.
When Zelda sends him back, the items are moved from their child resting places to the SR.

Everyone's understanding of time travel & gameplay mechanics is confusing at best so you can't expect to explain how time affects item(s) in OoT, let alone MM. Link cannot use the big heavy items he got from the future simply because his original body is just not strong enough to weld them properly. Child Link can't very well use that Giant's knife/Biggoron's Sword can he? SR has nothing to do with items or Link's consciousness.

Link can recover the lost time in Hyrule, he just has to make sure he returns to the future before Link awakes in the future for the first time to avoid paradoxes. I know the passage between times (or something like that) was closed, but can't it be opened again? Actually, it must be in a single timeline theory because otherwise Link wouldn't be able to travel to the past.

He has to return to avoid paradoxes? WTF?

Look, once Link put the MS back and regained his lost years the 'road' between times was closed forever. Have you ever watched the movie 'Back to the Future II'? Link could never return to this version of Hyrule and adult Zelda knew this when she said there will only be 'peace in this world for a time'. She knew Ganon would escape from the Evil Realm and the Hero of Time won't be there to stop him. This means that the future version of Hyrule is doomed and we know it's destruction came with a flood (TWW).

BUT in the past version of Hyrule time was now rewriting itself and an alternate timeline without Ganondorf/Ganon was created.

[SOAP]

How does Ganon not exist in the new timeline?

Well actually Ganon wouldn't exist but Ganondorf would still exist in his human form wouldn't he?