399 replies to this topic

[Vazor]

Can it be done? We're sure as hell gonna try.

What I propose is the gathering of information about the most crucial components of the series, from each game and backstory, and using these figures to piece together some logical order, or at least multiple logical orders. I tried to do this some time ago on another forum, but we never really went through with it. I've seen others do similar things, but none of them have been truly comprehensive.

What is our goal? To create a timeline as devoid of fanfiction as humanly possible.

We will need (for each game):

Condition of Each Triforce, ie:
Aol Backstory: ToC
Beginning - With King Of Hyrule
End - Hidden

Condition of Ganon, ie:
LttP:
Beginning - Sealed In Dark Realm
End - Dead

Condition of Master Sword, ie:
WW:
Beginning - Hyrule Castle
End - With Link

Condition of Vaati, ie:
TMC:
Beginning - Alive
End - Sealed in Four Sword

And so on and so forth for each aspect of the timeline (ie: the other Triforces, the Four Sword, etc.) Using this data, we can piece games together by connecting games that have these aspects in common. For example:

Toc:
Beginning of OoT - In SR, with ToP and ToW
End of OoT - With Link
Beginning of MM - With Link
End of MM - Scattered Throughout Hyrule
Beginning of WW - Scattered Throughout Hyrule

And so forth. By doing this, we can figure out which games make sense connected, and which ones do not. I've seen this attempted numerous times, but none of these times have been succesful because members begin debating over non-concrete points. For example, although I believe the Minish Realm to be the same as the Sacred Realm, since canon does not explicitely state it, the condition of the SR in TMC would be left as "Unknown." Anything that is not absolutely canon will not be counted. So, at the end of WW, Ganon would be listed as "Petrified" rather than dead or sealed. I'm going for absolute accuracy here in putting together the great jigsaw puzzle that is the Zelda timeline.

So...let's get started.

[Hero of Slime]

When we tried this expiriment on MR we had:

(OoT-MM)-(TWW)-(TMC)-(OoA-OoS)-(FS-FSA)-(AlttP-LA)-(LoZ-AoL)

[Vazor]

I know, but our workngs on MR weren't really all that comprehensive, and everything that we did gather is lost forever now anyway. Besides, there were only, like, five of us working on that one. Here, we've got the entire ZL community to fine-tune it.

[Showsni]

From the top...

LoZ
Triforce: ToC: unknown.
ToW: Belonging to Little Kingdom/Zelda -> Scattered through Hyrule -> Link's possession.
ToP: Belonging to little kingdom -> to Ganon -> to Link.

Master Sword: Unknown.

Ganon: A prince of darkness. Invades little kingdom with army, killed by Link.

SR: Unknown.

The Kingdom: a small area inside the larger region of Hyrule. Mostly wastes, very few inhabitants.

AoL BS
ToC: Owned by wise king. Unknown after his death.
ToP: Owned by wise king, then by prince.
ToW: Owned by wise king, then by prince.

MS, SR, Ganon: unknown.

The Kingdom: At this time, the kingdom spanned all Hyrule, there was peace and prosperity.

AoL
ToC: Hidden in Great Palace (by king), recovered by Link.
ToW, ToP: retained by Link.

MS, SR: Unknown.

Ganon: Still dead.

The Kingdom: The game is set in the larger region of Hyrule. A very varied place, with plains, deserts, forests, swamps, and a good spattering of cities. Rebuilding after Ganon's rule going on apace, though he still has followers and many spies.

ALttP BS (IW)
ToC, ToP, ToW: created by goddesses, left in SR. Seized by Ganon.

MS: Forged in response to an oracle sometime prior to IW. Unknown at time of IW.

SR: Created by goddesses with Hyrule. Tainted by Ganon's wish.

Ganon: Greedy leader of a gang of thieves to prince of darkness, holder of the whole triforce, trapped in SR.

The Kingdom: The Hylia settled here. Greedy men gathered, drawn by the triforce, and there was much bloodshed. The sages of the time must have been strong in magic and lore. War won by sage's wisdom and knight's virtue.

ALttP
ToC, ToW, ToP: Ganon's possession, then Link's.

MS: Lost in the Woods, though known about by wise people. Link uses, then rehides in woods.

SR: Darkened by Ganon's wish, presumably purified after Link's wish.

Ganon: Prince of darkness trapped in SR to dead by Link's hand.

The Kingdom: Smaller than whole of Hyrule as seen in AoL. Quite well populated, with varying areas. Disasters befall it, but are averted by Agahnim. Ends in seeming golden age, with Link's wishes restoring dead people.

LA
ToC, ToP, ToW: unknown.

SR, MS: Unknown.

Ganon: Dead.

The kingdom: Starts with people uneasy - what threats could arise from Ganon's ashes? Ends unknown.

OoT
ToC: From SR to Link's heart.
ToW: From SR to Zelda's heart.
ToP: From SR to Ganon's heart, sealed with him in SR.

MS: Legendary sword, hidden in ToT to hidden in ToT.

SR: Tainted by Ganon's presence.

Ganon: Leader of a group of desert thieves to king of evil, then sealed in SR.

The kingdom: Smaller than whole of Hyrule as seen in AoL. Varying areas. Some fierce wars took place previously, but now most racesa re at peace. Ends with races celebrating together.

MM
Triforce, SR, MS, Ganon: unknown.

TWW BS
Ganon: from SR to Hyrule, then sealed underwater.

TWW
ToC: Sealed in chests scattered along the ocean floor with elaborate charts showing locations to Link's heart then to whole triforce then unknown.
ToW: Broken in two, half held by Zelda's descendant half by a former king of Hyrule to Tetra's heart to unknown.
ToP: From Ganon's heart to unknown.

MS: In Hyrule castle on the sea bed but uncharged to Link.

SR: Unknown.

Ganon: Sealed (semi sealed?) in old Hyrule/living in Forsaken Fortress to petrified on the ocean floor.

The Kingdom: Sealed underwater, then washed away. People now have a different culture and live on scattered islands. Blood of Hylia still present - pointy eared girls.

OoX
Triforce: Appears whole and in a castle.

MS: Starts in variety of places, generally broken and/or lost. Ends with Link.

SR: Unknown.

Ganon: Dead. Attempt revival - Link promptly kills again. Ends dead.

The kingdom: Has a ruler who visits elswhere. has an order of knights.

[SOAP]

MR wasn't a good Zelda Theology community. Too few people with too far of a diversity. Only us three (plus Octo) seemed to be all that into Zelda.

Ah I used to do these experiements all the time back in the day when TWW was our biggest concern. I'd like write down flowcharts with arrows and stuff on napkins, on the sides of my notes, ANYTHING I could get my hands on!

[Vazor]

So, in terms of the Triforce, the following make sense:

OoT - MM - Great Flood - TWW
IW - LTTP - OoX - AoL BS - LoZ - AoL

The problem here lies in tying the first half to the second half. At the end of TWW, all three pieces are missing (possibly united), but by the IW they are all together in the Sacred Realm. Were they put there? Did they go there on their own at the end of TWW? I don't know.

Now Ganon. He's tricky. I'm not counting OoX, but it can go after any of his deaths.

OoT - MM - TWW
IW - LTTP
LoZ - AoL

Unfortunately for us, Ganon has died a lot of times. The only other time he is reborn in any sense, as far as I know, is in HA, which could possibly fall after any of those three setups, however that still leaves us with the question of how he got to the beginning of the next. Since the FS games tend to complicate things, I'm leaving them out for now, until we can put them in a place where they can make sense. Since, looking at the Triforce timeline, LTTP goes through OoX and AoL BS and ends up at LoZ, so I guess we can put them together for now.

OoT - MM - Great Flood - TWW
IW - LTTP - OoX - AoL BS - [Ganon Reborn?] - LoZ - AoL

Maybe.

Well, I said I wouldn't do the FS games now, but what the heck, I feel like it. Obviously we know:

Hero of Man - TMC - FS - HA

But where in the timeline does this fit? Is it separated throughout the overall timeline, or all bunched together? Again, HA leaves us with Ganon sealed away and no means of seeing his escape.

[Hero of Slime]

Now I know we can't fan**** but do we need to provide any explaination as to how TWW goes into ALttP. Since it is the only way things could work, we should just say that (TWW)-(ALttP) and just give no explaination.

[SOAP]

Well you could just say PH happened and leave it at that. Of course I'm stubborn and want to put ALttP (and FSA) inbetween OoT and TWW despite the conflicts it causes with the wherabouts of the triforce.

[Vazor]

You see, I have a problem with that, as I believe that the Triforce is the most essential part of the timeline. I mean, the entire series is based around it, and it exists in some form all throughout, so I think it should be of the highest precedent in creating a timeline. Although I hope it will, I doubt that PH will resolve the Triforce discrepancy between WW and LTTP.

[Rogue Cucco]

Umm... I suppose deciding on a split timeline or single timeline isn't possible? Being up to 'interpretation' and all. I guess splits are really given up on. The only things we have to go on are the quotes if we want real, hard proof, and those are pretty screwed up, saying TWW happens after the Adult OOT ending when all the MM references are in... of course, I think that happening after the Young OOT ending works out perfectly, but I certainly can't add that into this sort of discussion. The crazy thing is, if there is a split needed to work it out that we can't have concrete appearances for, then the whole thing is screwed. Right?

Of course, this seems pretty neat. Everyone always thinks of things in terms of hypothesises, going from the top and then breaking it down, and here everyone would start from the bottom. I never got the whole hypothesis thing with scientific method anyways.

Well, I guess I'll see if I can think of anything, but until then... I don't know.

Bye.

[Hero of Slime]

Well you could just say PH happened and leave it at that.

But PH has not happened since it has not been released yet. As far as the Timeline is concerned, PH as well as TP and the Tingle RPG don't exist.

[Ogmios22188]

But PH has not happened since it has not been released yet. As far as the Timeline is concerned, PH as well as TP and the Tingle RPG don't exist.

I've long thought that The Wind Waker takes place in the future timeline, after Ocarina of Time, since there's the statue of Adult Link and stained-glass windows of the Sages.

[Vazor]

I've long thought that The Wind Waker takes place in the future timeline, after Ocarina of Time, since there's the statue of Adult Link and stained-glass windows of the Sages.

http://www.gamehiker...ticles.php?id=8

Pretty much solves that.

[Doopliss]

I think that we should place TWW last so we don't have to speculate on how Hyrule resurfaced or how the Triforce gets back to the Sacred Realm.

[Vazor]

The problem with that is, triforce-wise, it doesnt fit anywhere but after OoT.

[Doopliss]

The problem with that is, triforce-wise, it doesnt fit anywhere but after OoT.

That's what I'm saying...

[Ogmios22188]

http://www.gamehiker...ticles.php?id=8

Pretty much solves that.

That's a possibility, but I doubt that Link would go back in time and just allow everything to happen all over again. That's why I've long believed in the split timeline.

[Hero of Slime]

If you believe that time travel does not allow one to change the future then, Link has to allow everything to happen again. I thought we were at an understanding that the perfect timeline would be single.

Edited by The Zol, 14 May 2006 - 12:02 PM.

[Ogmios22188]

If you believe that time travel does not allow one to change the future then, Link has to allow everything to happen again. I thought we were at an understanding that the perfect timeline would be single.

Then what's the point of time travel at all if not to change the future? Look at The Terminator, Dragon Ball Z, or The Time Machine. All of these involve time travel to change the future. I know Zelda says to Link that she's sending him back in time to regain lost time, but I don't see Link just saying "screw this place, I'm gonna be a kid." Doesn't seem like the heroic thing to me at all.

[MikePetersSucks]

There is also plenty of fiction where people go back in time or whatever to change the future for whatever reason, only to learn that their going back in time is what caused the event to happen and that they were destined to go back in time anyway. Hell, one of the examples you listed, Terminator, is an example of this. In the First Terminator alone, it's only because the Terminator and Kyle went back in time that both Connor and Skynet were able to be born.

[Ogmios22188]

There is also plenty of fiction where people go back in time or whatever to change the future for whatever reason, only to learn that their going back in time is what caused the event to happen and that they were destined to go back in time anyway. Hell, one of the examples you listed, Terminator, is an example of this. In the First Terminator alone, it's only because the Terminator and Kyle went back in time that both Connor and Skynet were able to be born.

I understand that, but in Link's case, the apocalyptic future is going to happen by his inaction, not action. Even if his actions would ultimately achieve nothing, he doesn't seem like the type of person to me to think that way or not even try.

[D~N]

The key to a perfect timeline is to understand time travel as much as possible. So we should all post our ideas of how OoT time travel happens, including things like the spirit temple and other such things. This way, we can pick the best theory and go from there.

I belive time travel works in this sense;

Link picks up the Master Sword, sleeps for 7 years [NOT TIME TRAVEL, JUST A LONG NAP]
Fights Ganon, wins. Zelda sends link back in time 7 years [Time Travel]
Ganon was sealed in the future, so he does not occur in the past, because his body is in a different dimmension. MM happens...

As for my explaination why this happens: When Ganon was sealed, he is removed from hyrule and is in another dimmension. When time goes back to child link, time moves around Ganon and he stays frozen and the events can not occur again. Link sets out on MM, saves Termina, lives the rest of his life, the end. OoT Adult does not reoccur. Going back in time stops the adult half from happening AGIAN. This is not to say it didn't happen the first time.

The gauntlet situation is as thus: Link does not have them, so he goes back to get them. There is only one physical link, so 'the future link' does not get them, like some people think. This Link still has them in whatever pocket he keeps them in. Remember that he sleeps for seven years? yeah, well, the first time, he doesn't have them, but the second time he does because Link got them as a kid, sleeps for seven years, and wakes up with them in his pocket. this is why only after child link gets them, he has them; he had to physically go and get the gloves.

[Rogue Cucco]

I guess, if you want my take on time travel, I'll post it just for the heck of it. We'll start by Link entering through the Door of Time. Ganondorf is following him. Link picks up the sword. Ganondorf begins to let out a, 'NOO!' however Link just puts the sword down. He know has the knowledge of what will happen in the future. He experienced it, however it hasn't happened... all time travel is messed up anyways. He does the Well thing and goes back. Ganondorf is still hiding since he can't touch the MS. Link picks it up again, knows his whole Shadow Temple to Spirit Temple routine, and puts it down. This cycle continues until one last time Link picks it up and a blue light envelopes him. He warps to the SR and Ganondorf hops in right afterwards. Then, Link all of a sudden warps back into the Light World with the Triforce of Courage, and the blue thingy dissapates like at the end of OOT. The MS is set, and therefore, Ganondorf (not Ganon) is locked inside. Eventually he will escape in the Red Wrath thing, as told in TWW. Link sees Zelda, tells all necessary information to whoever (keep in mind he has the TOC, so this isn't any little kid), and goes off to do MM.

What about the other stuff? Well, it didn't happen, because Zelda sent Link back in time, of course! Well, it didn't happen to Link. However, Zelda still experiences the future, along with everyone else, and the Imprisoning War and all that other stuff is remembered setting up for FSA, ALTTP, OOX, and all that stuff.

What about how the Sages are adults in the windows of HC in TWW? Well, they have to grow up sometime, and if Link has the TOC, and the royal family takes him as legend (as told in MM), the idea of them being Sages is taken as legend, and they presumable would be awakened, or at least someone would know enough to make stained glass things of them. All other backstory references from TWW are Young OOT and MM, right?

Now, thing is, what I just said holds no ground in this 'Perfect' timeline debate. (I'm no sucker for Occam's Razor, like everyone else, however.) However, we can't deny what was said about 'which ending TWW is set after.' They did say it was after OOT. However, we know this can't be. I have to say, I'm not sure if the idea of multiple timelines came from anything else other than that quote [which I can't really remember]. I specifically remember reading it, and then this one guy who knew a lot about Zelda explained the idea to me. Finally, just because what they said was wrong, doesn't mean it can't be half-wrong. (I think. ) If they said it happened after Adult, and that was wrong, Occam's Razor would say it happens after Young though there are still two endings. (I think )

Bye Bye.

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 14 May 2006 - 08:29 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

CS-FW-OOT-MM-IW-LttP-LA-Oracles-SP-LoZ-AoL
l
OOT(future)-TP-TWW-PH


Here's my split timeline. I did not include the FS games for right now until I can make morse sense of them. I do believe that even if the FS games are apart of the timeline...it still would not mess up the order of the games above.

CS: Creation story as explained in LttP and OOT

FW: Fierce Wars-the war that left OOT Link an orphan and put into custody of the Deku Tree. The FW was a time when the people of Hyrule were divided due tyo their lust over the Triforce. I think the FW also matches up with the section of the LttP backstory that comes after the Creation Story and prior to Ganon seizing the Triforce.

OOT--we all know what happens here. After Ganon seized the Triforce, Link awkened 7 years later as an adult. With help from the MS, he traveled back and forth through time to eventually defeat Ganon in the future. This is where I believe the 'split' occurs. Zelda returns Link to his original time, so that he can live out his child hood by his own choice, since she feels sorry for dragging Link into all that happened. I believe that when he goes back...Ganon may still be around in the past, since what happens in the future can not change the past. However, what happens in the past can change the future. This time around...Link decides not to pull the MS as he now know what will happen. This gesture foils Ganon's plans temporarily and he must retreat and find another means into Sacred Realm.

MM--young Link later goes off to search for friend...not knowing it will lead him on a quest away from Hyrule. It is not clear if Link ever returns to Hyrule

IW--Since Link did not pull the MS...Ganon eventually finds another way into Sacred Realm to seize the Triforce. The sages of this time period try to find a hero who could use the Master Sword, but Link is gone and they have no time to find anyone else. The tragic war concludes with the Knights of Hyrule sacrficing themselves in order to give the sages more time in sealing Ganon away into the Dark World (which was once the Sacred Realm).

LttP--this leads us to this game. Where's the Triforce? The whole thing was sealed away with Ganon in the IW, which is why he already has it prior to his show down with the Link of this Game. Link slays Ganon and he uses the Triforce to restore peace

OOT(future)--allow me the hop onto the other timeline before I continue on with the line that LttP is on. As you know Adult OOT Link, defeats Ganon and he is then sealed by the sages of this time into Dark World. However, Ganon has his part of the Triforce--which is power--but not the whole Triforce. Link stiil has Courage and Zelda remains with Wisdom. Adult Link is sent back to his original time, where he will do things differently. This timeline is not erased or whatever...it continues on. Since Link is no longer around. The Triforce of Courage is split up.

TWW--As time goes on Ganon returns somehow from his imprisonment in the Dark World--maybe with some assistance fron the Triforce of Power. This time, however, he is unmatched and no hero is around to save Hyrule. The people pray and then Hyrule is submerged and sealed along with Ganon. This is where TWW Link comes in at and we all know what happens next. Note: the statue of the Hero of Time and the stain glass windows of the sages and Ganon were a tribute the event of the adult portion of OOT. Since this future continues on...it makes sense why people always reference the Hero of Time and the sages.

[Doopliss]

I will quote myself:

The thing is I believe that there is only one ending. Here is what I think: Link beats Ganon, then, Zelda sents him exactly seven years back in time. At this point. child Link's mind (who is sleeping) and his adult mind change places, so his adult body falls unconscious while his child body comes back to life in the past. Link goes to Termina and he returns to Hyrule. There he puts the Master Sword on the pedestal and he returns to the future, switching places with his child mind. The future goes on and TWW happens.

For the Spirit Temple: Link takes the Silver Gauntlets from the temple, he gets inside the Sacred Realm again andswitches places with his child mind. When he awakes in the future, the Silver Gauntlets appear from the Sacred Realm because they have been there for seven years, waiting for Link. The same goes for the other items.

[Rogue Cucco]

I just wanted to add, I think I realized this whole idea that we should make a Perfect Timeline using locations of Ganon, the Triforce(s), and the Master Sword just isn't going to do it. I guess what I'll say first is, someone could just move these things... and I realize that is totally NOT a valid argument (what some would call fan fiction, I guess ), however, while it is widely believed that ALTTP comes after OOT, it was never explained how the Triforce came into the Evil Realm as one. I guess people just accepted that it happened. Why? Becuase the whole Sage-Ganondorf rising theme was an echo of ALTTP's backstory (manual or not). Same with the Master Sword. I mean, you can't expect the place to just freeze until the next game- surely something will happen that gets stuff a lot different than you last saw it. Why is the Master Sword outside the Temple of Time (Sanctuary), for example? Someone or thing had to move it. But we didn't see that. I'm sorry if I'm not able to get my point across, I can't really find the words.

I'm not saying we need fan fiction, but we need to accept there are some unknown happenings that can completely change the connection between two games while still letting them follow the same order. We just have to accept there are some things we don't know. Hopefully, we'll get games that incorporate those story elements. (I'm thinking the Four Swords series will culminate with Ganon breaking out of the FS, getting the Triforces, and being locked in the Evil Realm again, for example.)

I think the best thing to do is look at the future and past of each game and see where they connect with others. Pretty much what everyone's been doing.

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 17 May 2006 - 04:29 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Actually in the twin timeline hypothesis, TP can go in both, so that must also be common to both timelines

[Koji]

The most important elements of the timeline, to me, are the placement/state of the Triforce and how alive or dead Ganon is. The MS isn't as important to me, simply because it always ends up in a similar position in every game. Whereas the Triforce remains divided, whole, within/out the SR, etc., the MS always manages to find its way back to a pedestal somewhere - leading me to believe that every incarnation of Link eventually moves it/puts it back - thus nullifying its ability to point us in the right direction timeline-wise.

The split timeline theory just doesn't sit well with me. It's entirely possible, but I don't like the feel of it, especially with TWW referencing MM - unless Tingle RPG wants to explain away the LotF. However, if someone would like to take the time to plot it out, couldn't you potentially use a Split Timeline theory to explain OoT as both TWW BS AND the IW? If you do it right, couldn't you end up with one timeline where Ganon is sealed with ONLY the ToP (with Link and Zelda in posession of the ToC and ToW respectively) and the other timeline with Ganon sealed inside the SR with the whole Triforce?

There has been discussion about the events of Ocarina of Time since it came out, which only heightened upon the release of Majora's Mask. Such theories were that Ocarina of Time 'never happened. Meaning that the moment Ganondorf attempted to seize the Triforce, he was suddenly trapped in the Sacred Realm and the future was peaceful and good.

[Fyxe]

The problem with that concept, Koji, is that it seems rather forced. Basically, what would cause Ganondorf to be suddenly trapped in the Sacred Realm? Deus Ex Machina? The thing is, nothing Link or the sages do in the 'bad future' of Hyrule will stop Ganondorf in the past from getting the Triforce and presumably leaving the Sacred Realm.

Any theories that do suggest this seem incredibly forced, basically suggesting that sealing Ganon in the future meant he was sealed in the past as well. But *why*? There's no reason for this to happen, it's not said in the game that this will happen. Imagine if Zelda had not sent Link back - would the past be any different? Why should it be?

I'm not saying there *couldn't* be a split, but the problem is that nobody has ever given a good reason for Ganondorf being defeated in the past at the same time as his future self is sealed.

Also, the concept of a 'perfect timeline' is a bit moot... As we can see already, nobody agrees on one timeline. Still, there are plenty of people who make elementary mistakes when working out a timeline, and often timelines are just *wrong* because they contradict stuff that has been stated in the games and manuals.