93 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

Zora are a civilisation of humanoid creatures who are obviously capable of making and handling the mental and emotional decisions necessary for a relationship with a Hylian.

So what if a Zora and Hylian have the same mental capacity, the are still very different species which makes a relationship between them immoral.

[Vazor]

Are we really debating the ethics of inter-humanoid-species relations?

Come on, that's hardly serious Zelda-theory. Don't make me start another Light Force debate.

[spunky-monkey]

So what if a Zora and Hylian have the same mental capacity, the are still very different species which makes a relationship between them immoral.

How on Earth Hyrule is that 'immoral' exactly? Princess Ruto was very determined to make a marriage with Link work...her plans got derailed only because she later became a Sage.
It's not unethical because there are no Hyrulean laws, cults or religions to stop Zoras and Hylians from intermarrying each other. You can assume that such marriages were probably well-known, an ancient custom that was a sign of peace and goodwill between the two races stretching far back into the Kingdom's history.
The fact that Link was Ruto's fiancé and they were destined to be married was an endless source of comic relief because it is not wrong or immoral in Hyrule.

Edited by Ricky, 13 May 2006 - 09:31 AM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Either that or Ruto just didn't give a fudge over if it was immoral. XD

Edited by enchantedtoast, 13 May 2006 - 12:34 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

How on Earth Hyrule is that 'immoral' exactly?

It is immoral because having relations with someone of a completely different species is disgusting. It is a sin against nature.

[Hero of Legend]

It is immoral because having relations with someone of a completely different species is disgusting. It is a sin against nature.

Not in Zelda. Not in many other fantasy tales.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 13 May 2006 - 04:41 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

It is immoral because having relations with someone of a completely different species is disgusting. It is a sin against nature.

It's not immoral in Zelda, fantasy or science-fiction. Ruto's engagement wasn't even discouraged by her peers on the basis that she is a Zora Princess and her fiancé is just a commoner. In fact all the Zoras found this relationship to be perfectly normal i.e. such marriages have happened before. Even the Gerudos often come to Hyrule Town to look for boyfriends so your argument doesn't hold water here.

HANG ON - how can love be a sin against nature?

[Hero of Slime]

I am not saying love is a sin against nature, I am saying that relations between two completly different species are sins agaisnt nature. Even though such relationships happen in zelda and other works of fiction, it does not stop me from thinking they are disgusting and sinfull.

[Hero of Legend]

No, but it stops you from saying they are unlikely to occur in the context of that fiction.

BTW, your opinion that it is "disgusting and sinful" is wrong, simply because it is a natural part of life. It happens regularly that members of different species interbreed, sometimes resulting in a completely new species.

[Hero of Slime]

I never said that mix-species relationships are unlikely to occur in Zelda. But if you believe that all the Links in the Timeline are of the same line, then you have to believe that Link chooses a human female as his partner. If were to see a human trying to have relations with an animal, I would think it is wrong and I believe many others would agree with me. Two creatures of completely different species can not even successfully reproduce together(I think human and zora would fit in this catagory), and those interbread creatures, whose parents are of different but similar species, are infertile. Interbreeding does not result in new species.

[coinilius]

So what if a Zora and Hylian have the same mental capacity, the are still very different species which makes a relationship between them immoral.

Well, the point wasn't whether it was immoral in itself, the point was that it is a different kind of situation to being in a relationship with an animal. Zora's are not animals, after all, they are civilised beings that just happen to not be human (or Hylian).

If were to see a human trying to have relations with an animal, I would think it is wrong and I believe many others would agree with me.

But again, Zora's are not animals, they are beings that are on an equal footing to the Hylians, with there own culture, philosophy, art, emotuons etc. If anything, a relationship between a Zora and a Hylian is more similar to a same-sex relationship than to beastialiaty in terms of how to frame it in a 'real world' comaprison sort of way - there are no specieses like the Zora (or any other fictional non-human species) in our world, after all.

Edited by coinilius, 15 May 2006 - 09:12 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

It is true that the Zora are more developed than many animals on earth, but I still would not say that they are at an equal level with humanity. Humans are still the superior species. Plus the Zora's physiology is greatly different form a humans.

[spunky-monkey]

Two creatures of completely different species can not even successfully reproduce together(I think human and zora would fit in this catagory), and those interbread creatures, whose parents are of different but similar species, are infertile. Interbreeding does not result in new species.

You can't compare our natural world to the Zelda Universe, it's not very practical. Saying that a Hylian-Zora couple can/can't have fertile/infertile children is an assumption. I think in Hyrule it's likely that offspring from such couples are determined by what race the mother comes from, so in a Link-Ruto relationship any children would be Zoras. I know this is all theory but interbreeding could have created the Rito race...

It is true that the Zora are more developed than many animals on earth, but I still would not say that they are at an equal level with humanity. Humans are still the superior species. Plus the Zora's physiology is greatly different form a humans.

You're using the word "human" too much. Link is a Hylian/Hyrulean not a human, therefore he is superior to the human tribes in the Zelda Universe. Zoras are also very advanced because they are telepathic, in OoT Ruto read Link's mind and found out he was searching for Zelda, making her jealous xD

Edited by Ricky, 16 May 2006 - 10:09 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

Why wouldn't the same natural laws apply in the Zelda world? I know it is an assumption, but I think it is better to assume somthing real than to assume something made up. My assumption is more valid than your fan****ed theory.

Link is a Human, he is called human in all games other than OoT. Hylian is just a type of Human. We know that Link in ALttP is descended form Hylians but is not fully Hylian himself, therefore we know that Hylain's are capable of producing fertile offspring with other races of Humans.

Edited by The Zol, 16 May 2006 - 05:16 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Hylians aren't humans... He is called a human in other games because his ancestors bred with humans. Hylians are human-like, and so are Zora. You can't compare it to anything in the realy world because on Earth there ARE no other species like humans... If anything it would be like breeding dogs.

[spunky-monkey]

My assumption is more valid than your fan****ed theory.

Hey I thought we were having a nice mature discussion here - just because you don't like it doesn't give you any right to call my theory fan****ed. Your assumptions are worthless because we are debating about a video game, not real life.

Link is a Human

He has pointy ears for God's sake!

[Hero of Slime]

Since his hylian ancestors had reproduced with humans, that would mean that Hylians are the same species as humans. When you look at Hylians in OoT, you see that they share the same phisiology as people of this world and all the other people in other Zelda games(including MM which takes place at the same time period as OoT). Zora's on the other hand are completely different.

just because you don't like it doesn't give you any right to call my theory fan****ed. Your assumptions are worthless because we are debating about a video game, not real life.

The fact that your theory has not a single bit of evidence behind it makes it fan****ed. What says that the laws of nature do not apply to fictional worlds? The game creators are not likely to come up with an entirely new set of natural laws and then not mention it in the games at all.

I don't see how the mere additon of pointy ears, makes hylians a completly different species form Humans?

Edited by The Zol, 16 May 2006 - 05:57 PM.

[Fyxe]

I am not saying love is a sin against nature, I am saying that relations between two completly different species are sins agaisnt nature. Even though such relationships happen in zelda and other works of fiction, it does not stop me from thinking they are disgusting and sinfull.

The only real reason that interspecies relationships are considered 'sinful' is because it's effectively rape in the real world - animals do not have the mental capacity to know what is really going on. There are only a tiny, tiny few percentage of animals that are known to have sex for pleasure, and humans are one of them.

However, in Zelda and other works of fiction, there are many 'humanoid' races which all share a general level of intelligence, an interest in sexual activity beyond breeding, basic moral codes, and complex language.

As a 'furry fan', I would have to say that there is nothing wrong with interspecies relationship as long as the species are humanoid and share all those traits I just mentioned.

If nature provides a connection understood by both parties, how can it be a sin against nature? One of the most important parts of nature involve the spreading of genes as much as possible, and if it's possible, nature will go for it hammer and tong.

I should also point out that Gerudos are technically not of the same species as Hylians, just like Zoras, etc., yet the game specifically says how they go to Hyrule Town to look for boyfriends.

And to lower the tone as I usually do, my argument can be summed up thusly...



I'd hump that.

EDIT: Also, Zol, Hylians have magic-inflused blood, not just pointy ears. Hylians are basically Elves. They are a race of human, but not a seperate species, no. But whether Zoras are a race or a seperate species is also debatable.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, I have a better picture.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 May 2006 - 06:15 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Then I guess we have differing opinions. If I lived in Hyrule, I would still want a female human as my partner.

[Fyxe]

Fine by you, I would want whoever I fell in love with to be my partner, personally. ¬.¬

Although it'd be nice if it were a Gerudo. Mmm, seksay.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 May 2006 - 06:10 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Since his hylian ancestors had reproduced with humans, that would mean that Hylians are the same species as humans.

I'm sorry, but where the hell did you get THAT from?

The fact that your theory has not a single bit of evidence behind it makes it fan****ed.

Ahem, the only thing you've contributed so far is "that's disgusting" & "a sin against nature". I'm sorry Zol but the rest is irrelevant, your assumptions on nature and species are worthless here. You cannot compare a video game to the natural world, same thing applies to Science and Zelda.

Edited by Ricky, 16 May 2006 - 06:17 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

In ALttP Link is said to be partly descended from Hylians. So that means that some of his ancestors were not Hylian. Therfore, in order for a Hylians to produce fertile offspring with a Human, they would have to be the same species.

Assumptions based on fact are worth a lot more than assumptions based on nothing.

[Fyxe]

Technically - not based on nothing. Most of the Seven Sages were not human, yet they all have human decendants. That implies some interracial breeding.

However, I personally prefer to think that the 'blood' of the sages was passed on through magical means rather than direct blood connection, ala Makar and Medli in Wind Waker.

HOWEVER, their species are meant to be decendants from Kokiris and Zoras anyway (apparently), although the change appears to be magical rather than any kind of breeding thing; at least in the case of Koroks.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 May 2006 - 06:34 PM.

[coinilius]

but I still would not say that they are at an equal level with humanity. Humans are still the superior species. Plus the Zora's physiology is greatly different form a humans.

What exactly makes you think that they are inferior to humans? They have intelligence, emotions, culture, family, royalty, fashion, music, art, aspirations, progress... they don't appear to be 'below' the Hylians on any evolutionary or developmental scale that I can tell (ok, there's the 'favoured of the gods' bit that the Hylians have, but then the non-Hylian humans would also be considered inferior).

In ALttP Link is said to be partly descended from Hylians. So that means that some of his ancestors were not Hylian. Therfore, in order for a Hylians to produce fertile offspring with a Human, they would have to be the same species.

The problem is, we're dealing with a fictional universe - and in many fictional universes, people from different specieses have been able to reproduce and have fertile offspring. Vulcans and humans in Star Trek, for instance, are very much different specieses (it is more than just a case of pointy ears) and yet they can produce fertile offspring. Same with human/Klingon hybrids, human/betazoid offspring, etc. We've had many references to blood descendants in the case of the Sages, as has been mentioned, and there descendants of different specieses (although that's debatable, as has also been mentioned). There is also a hint towards a possible Rito/Hylian crossbreeding with the Rito postman who looks like the OoT running man and his statue description.

Edited by coinilius, 16 May 2006 - 09:20 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

In ALttP Link is said to be partly descended from Hylians. So that means that some of his ancestors were not Hylian. Therfore, in order for a Hylians to produce fertile offspring with a Human, they would have to be the same species.

We don't actually see any Humans in ALttP so this is just another assumption. Discussions on whether Link is Hylian or Hyrulean don't seem to go down well because Nintendo failed to state what Link is exactly in the ALttP manual.

Hylians and Humans are different species because they look different.

Same with human/Klingon hybrids, human/betazoid offspring, etc. We've had many references to blood descendants in the case of the Sages, as has been mentioned, and there descendants of different specieses (although that's debatable, as has also been mentioned). There is also a hint towards a possible Rito/Hylian crossbreeding with the Rito postman who looks like the OoT running man and his statue description.

Exactly my point, there are references everywhere in TWW that the races intermarried with each other. Not to mention that magic and life in the Zelda Universe seemed to be intertwined, so obviously our science and logic have little ground to stand on when dealing with a fictional world inside a video game.

[Husse]

It is immoral because having relations with someone of a completely different species is disgusting. It is a sin against nature.

Well, that depends. You kind of have to decide if they're both considered human enough.

HANG ON - how can love be a sin against nature?

Um...one-sided love is sin in itself. And I can just see Ruto dragging Link to a marriage by his hair.



Um...this is getting really ugly. Can we toneth down the tempers a bit? This is really a dumb debate, and all the sane people have left. (Which leaves me. )

[Hero of Legend]

Two creatures of completely different species can not even successfully reproduce together(I think human and zora would fit in this catagory), and those interbread creatures, whose parents are of different but similar species, are infertile. Interbreeding does not result in new species.

Not true - Neither in reality nor Zelda.

[Husse]

Yes, he's right. After all, horse plus donkey equals mule, an animal unable to reproduce. You can interbreed a few species. Cats and rabbits, believe it or not, is possible. Incredibly difficult and would not happen in the wild, but physically possible.

[Hero of Legend]

What I said was "not true" was Zol's claim that such creatures can never reproduce, which IS false. Yes, a mule does not have the capability to do so, but some birds do.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 May 2006 - 10:36 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

Hylians and Humans are different species because they look different.

No they don't, they only have different ear shapes and magic powers. I don't think that is enough to classify them as a different species. The other differences are probably results of Hylians being cartoons.

Now I knew that hybrids exist, but I did not know about the bird hybrids that could reproduce. However, I know that hybrids can only come from species who are very similar like horses and donkies. Humans and Zora are no where near close enough for a hybrid to even be possible.

Cats and rabbits, believe it or not, is possible

Cool! What is a Cat-Rabbit called?

What exactly makes you think that they are inferior to humans?

It is just my opinion that humans are the superior species.