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Is the Bible True?


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#481 Alakhriveion

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 10:16 AM

So what you're saying is that our genes are constantly mutating and mutating non-stop, and our bodies are accepting and rejecting mutations as they come along in accordance with the prophecy.....I mean...their usefulness.

No. Your genes stay the same. Your children's genes will be different from yours, and may include genes your mate doesn't have either. Most will be the same, like the genes controlling your strength with the Force.



I know, George Lucas beat me to that one, but I think he was serious.

#482 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:04 PM

So what you're saying is that our genes are constantly mutating and mutating non-stop, and our bodies are accepting and rejecting mutations as they come along in accordance with the prophecy.....I mean...their usefulness.


Yes and no.

Your genes right now are undergoing damage and therefore mutations, even as you sit here reading this. If you don't count single strand or double strand breaks, all other forms of DNA damage is mutation. Oxidation, alkylation and hydrolysis of the bases (A, T, G or C) will cause bizarro bases like 8-oxo-7,8-dihydroguanine or uracil (which should only occur in RNA) which pair with completely different bases from the original.

However, the body repairs these mutations quite regularly.

Unfortunately, the repair is not always done, especially in the cases of mismatch, where the DNA repair machinery replaces the nitrogenous base on the complementary strand, even if the mutation was on the template strand.

These mutations occur in the individual cells of your body and stay there.

The majority of mutations that lead to evolution are from germline cells and there's lots of mutations in those cells. Why else does the male body release so many millions of sperm? It's because a large number end up becoming defective or have mutations.

#483 Fyxe

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:03 PM

A polar bear's skin, being black, also retains more heat for their bodies.

So let's see...
1. Polar bear (or its ancestor) lives in cold climate. Black skin gene doesn't come along, polar bears can't survive in the cold. This is not true because we know polar bears both have black skin and live...at the poles.


Polar bear lives in a cold climate. It does NOT have black skin. It survives anyway because it has lots of fur and it isn't TOO cold. It has a hard time, but it battles on. A few mutations and natural selection down the line and the black skin gene shows up and the ones with it have a better time surviving. More survive than the other bears, black skin gene becomes dominant, polar bears are able to move into even colder territories.

#484 Alakhriveion

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:22 PM

Polar bear lives in a cold climate. It does NOT have black skin. It survives anyway because it has lots of fur and it isn't TOO cold. It has a hard time, but it battles on. A few mutations and natural selection down the line and the black skin gene shows up and the ones with it have a better time surviving. More survive than the other bears, black skin gene becomes dominant, polar bears are able to move into even colder territories.

More likely those brown bears which fared better in cold climates filled the bear niche further north than others. As those still more able to handle the cold survived, polar bears as a species became more capable of handling the far north and moved further in to the arctic. There's no climate-then-evolution or evolution-then-climate.

#485 Korhend

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 04:16 PM

Our bodies genes do not change. Your childrens genes change.

#486 Fyxe

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 05:59 PM

More likely those brown bears which fared better in cold climates filled the bear niche further north than others. As those still more able to handle the cold survived, polar bears as a species became more capable of handling the far north and moved further in to the arctic. There's no climate-then-evolution or evolution-then-climate.


Well, yes, but the black skin gene had to develop at some point, I was just describing it in a very basic manner. Obviously it would be an instantanious 'oh, I have black skin, lets go north'.

#487 Reflectionist

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:04 PM

Who cares about the fricken polar bears?

I'm more worried about 'humans came from monkeys" sort of thing...

Bears won't ever evolve into anything except more bears. Monkeys won't evolve into anything except diffferent kinds of monkeys.

And besides, if what you guys are saying is true, then I guess Noah's Ark has a degree of feasiblity. There wouldn't be a need to bring along a polar bear and a grizzly bear, would there?

#488 Fyxe

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:24 PM

Bears won't ever evolve into anything except more bears. Monkeys won't evolve into anything except diffferent kinds of monkeys.


We're a different kind of monkey. There are more similarities than you probably think. Research, my friend.

Bears won't ever evolve into anything except more bears.

That's just bloody wrong. Do some research into evolution. Things evolve so much over such a long peroid of time that a bear doesn't look like a bear anymore.

Aren't raccoons somewhat related to bears, anyway?

And besides, if what you guys are saying is true, then I guess Noah's Ark has a degree of feasiblity. There wouldn't be a need to bring along a polar bear and a grizzly bear, would there?


A bear would not be able to evolve into a completely seperate species of bear in the time that has passed since the supposed event of Noah's Ark.

Edited by Fyxe, 03 July 2006 - 06:28 PM.


#489 Alakhriveion

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 08:00 PM

I'm more worried about 'humans came from monkeys" sort of thing...

True that, man. We DIDN'T come from monkeys.

Bears won't ever evolve into anything except more bears. Monkeys won't evolve into anything except diffferent kinds of monkeys.

Well, not at all, no. Species aren't set in stone.

And besides, if what you guys are saying is true, then I guess Noah's Ark has a degree of feasiblity. There wouldn't be a need to bring along a polar bear and a grizzly bear, would there?

This process took more than 2 million years. Noah wouldn't have been around to build an Ark at the time of the Polar/Brown Bear common ancestor.

We're a different kind of monkey. There are more similarities than you probably think. Research, my friend.

We most certainly are NOT monkeys. Human beings are apes.

Aren't raccoons somewhat related to bears, anyway?

Very closely. Pandas straddle the line.

#490 Fyxe

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 08:37 PM

Monkeys are apes. But yes, I shouldn't use the word monkey. That is wrong. But I think he knew what I meant.

Wish we did come from monkeys, specifically. Then we might still have tails.

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 03:27 AM

Well, yes, but the black skin gene had to develop at some point, I was just describing it in a very basic manner. Obviously it would be an instantanious 'oh, I have black skin, lets go north'.



(I know that I'm coming into this topic rather late, so I may not have a solid frame of reference in which to place my reply to this. As the previous comment referred to brown bears and polar bears, neither of which black in any way, I must assume the the 'black skin' phrase refers to that of certain racial variations of Man. IF I AM WRONG, YOU MAY NOT WISH TO WASTE YOUR TIME. I would be happy to delete this post of it is pointed out as being off-topic. I simply do not wish to wade through 400 some posts just now.)

According to evolutionary thought, black skin did not develop at some later point in human development, but rather was the primary case. This makes sense if you consider that Africa is home to the vast majority of higher primates - apes, our closest relatives -, with whom we almost certainly (from a Darwinian standpoint, mind you) share a common relative. It stands to reason that we too would have developed in the same geological area, and this is supported by the fossil evidence.

The emergence of Man was recent enough (geologically, at least) that it is safe to assume that the world had roughly the same shape it now holds, or at least close enough for Africa to have been the same equatorial hotspot it is today. This is a bit simplified, but when the sun hits skin, a reaction is caused which ends in the production of Vitamin D. Now, large excesses of VD can cause a rather painful death. This can be avoided, however, by changing the rate at which the skin absorbs the sunlight, and the most expedient way in which to do this would be to alter the skin itself. The route taken by evolution was to select for, from the very beginning, those who were of a darker tone, and thus better equipped to survive in a sun-choked environment. You may know that darker skin is also less susceptible to certain cancers.

In fact, it wasn't until interglacial periods during the pleistocene epoch when man would have been capable of traveling far enough north for dark skin to be a disadvantage. The problem was reversed: There was significantly less sunlight, and they could not absorb what little was available. So it came to be that a series of mutations (always entirely random, and only ever selected for if truly advantageous to survival) brought about the lighter skin tones. So it turns out that everyone who is not black is a mutant. This is rather alleviated by the fact that every human who is not a prosimian (think of the shrew) is also a mutant, which puts everything into perspective.


Also, monkeys are not apes, at least not according to the system by which all living things are catagorically organized (from which we recieve the name Homo sapiens sapiens). Apes are the highest form of primate, and man is included among their ranks. Monkeys are far more primitive in both intelligence and general form. Also, apes are found only in the Old World (Europe, Asia, and Africa) while monkeys are also found in the New World (South America). Note that apes tend not to have prehensile tails, so Fyxe's comment on why we do not have one would hold true.

Edited by Death Adder, 04 July 2006 - 03:33 AM.


#492 Oberon Storm

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 05:43 AM

Aren't raccoons somewhat related to bears, anyway?

Both came from dogs or dog-like animals I think.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 04 July 2006 - 05:43 AM.


#493 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 09:12 AM

Both came from dogs or dog-like animals I think.


Urgh, don't get me started on what's related to what. Apparently, according to a recent article I read, bats are related to horses. In fact, they're more related to horses than cows are. (Bats and horses get strangely chummy: New Scientist, 24 June 2006, Page 23). In fact, they found that only cats and dogs are more related to horses than bats are (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0603797103).

Neigh, it's true! (Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

#494 Alakhriveion

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:57 PM

Urgh, don't get me started on what's related to what. Apparently, according to a recent article I read, bats are related to horses. In fact, they're more related to horses than cows are. (Bats and horses get strangely chummy: New Scientist, 24 June 2006, Page 23). In fact, they found that only cats and dogs are more related to horses than bats are (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0603797103).

Neigh, it's true! (Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

Word to that. Whale are also, it seems, sea-hippos.

As the previous comment referred to brown bears and polar bears, neither of which black in any way, I must assume the the 'black skin' phrase refers to that of certain racial variations of Man.

No, man, polar bears have black skin.

Also, monkeys are not apes, at least not according to the system by which all living things are catagorically organized (from which we recieve the name Homo sapiens sapiens). Apes are the highest form of primate, and man is included among their ranks. Monkeys are far more primitive in both intelligence and general form.

That's a pretty misinformed little statement. Monkeys fill their ecological niche perfectly well thanks to evolution, as do apes. There are no higher or lower forms. Also, ordering systems are rather shaky and don't always match up to evolutionary reality- hence the thing with bats and horses.

EDIT: It should be noted that monkeys are more primative than apes using the strictest definition of the word (They're more similar to our common ancestor). I imagine, though, you didn't mean it like that.

EDIT ONCE AGAIN: I'm splitting this, should I split it?

Edited by Alakhriveion, 04 July 2006 - 01:56 PM.


#495 Oberon Storm

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 03:38 PM

Why split it? It just kind of flowed into this. At this point it will probably die again soon.

#496 Reflectionist

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 03:48 PM

(I know that I'm coming into this topic rather late, so I may not have a solid frame of reference in which to place my reply to this. As the previous comment referred to brown bears and polar bears, neither of which black in any way, I must assume the the 'black skin' phrase refers to that of certain racial variations of Man. IF I AM WRONG, YOU MAY NOT WISH TO WASTE YOUR TIME. I would be happy to delete this post of it is pointed out as being off-topic. I simply do not wish to wade through 400 some posts just now.)

According to evolutionary thought, black skin did not develop at some later point in human development, but rather was the primary case. This makes sense if you consider that Africa is home to the vast majority of higher primates - apes, our closest relatives -, with whom we almost certainly (from a Darwinian standpoint, mind you) share a common relative. It stands to reason that we too would have developed in the same geological area, and this is supported by the fossil evidence.

The emergence of Man was recent enough (geologically, at least) that it is safe to assume that the world had roughly the same shape it now holds, or at least close enough for Africa to have been the same equatorial hotspot it is today. This is a bit simplified, but when the sun hits skin, a reaction is caused which ends in the production of Vitamin D. Now, large excesses of VD can cause a rather painful death. This can be avoided, however, by changing the rate at which the skin absorbs the sunlight, and the most expedient way in which to do this would be to alter the skin itself. The route taken by evolution was to select for, from the very beginning, those who were of a darker tone, and thus better equipped to survive in a sun-choked environment. You may know that darker skin is also less susceptible to certain cancers.

In fact, it wasn't until interglacial periods during the pleistocene epoch when man would have been capable of traveling far enough north for dark skin to be a disadvantage. The problem was reversed: There was significantly less sunlight, and they could not absorb what little was available. So it came to be that a series of mutations (always entirely random, and only ever selected for if truly advantageous to survival) brought about the lighter skin tones. So it turns out that everyone who is not black is a mutant. This is rather alleviated by the fact that every human who is not a prosimian (think of the shrew) is also a mutant, which puts everything into perspective.
Also, monkeys are not apes, at least not according to the system by which all living things are catagorically organized (from which we recieve the name Homo sapiens sapiens). Apes are the highest form of primate, and man is included among their ranks. Monkeys are far more primitive in both intelligence and general form. Also, apes are found only in the Old World (Europe, Asia, and Africa) while monkeys are also found in the New World (South America). Note that apes tend not to have prehensile tails, so Fyxe's comment on why we do not have one would hold true.



They were talking about polar bears having black skin. Not people. Now let me take one statement of yours out of context, all in good fun.

Now, large excesses of VD can cause a rather painful death.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Edited by Reflectionist, 04 July 2006 - 03:49 PM.


#497 SOAP

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 01:56 AM

I think this topic should be split. We converging to much in one topic which has become too general, even for Contro.

#498 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 04:46 AM

Nnnnnnoooooooooo!!!! Not another Evolution topic! Those topics become so damned circular! We go over the same arguments over and over again, and neither side understands each other and neither side affirms anything.

#499 SOAP

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 07:35 AM

Wolf. No offense but you whine too much. Nearly every thraed here is circular. THIS thraed is circular. People just get bored and flow into a completely different thread.

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 06:55 PM

Hah, sorry all, I feel like a bit of an ass now. That zoology stuff wasn't cutting it for me, so when I happened upon that comment about black skin, I sort of mentally glazed over the surrounding context, I guess, and set the comment into a subject more interesting to me. I've always loved anthropology. So turns out I became overly verbose about something completely off topic, and for this I apologize.

Plus it was like, 1 in the morning >.>

#501 arunma

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 10:03 PM

Wolf. No offense but you whine too much. Nearly every thraed here is circular. THIS thraed is circular. People just get bored and flow into a completely different thread.


Split the thread? What? Now you're telling me that I have to do real work?

#502 deuterium

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 10:45 AM

I don't mean to start a fight or anything but Brown Bears will have a hard time filling the Polar Bear's niche. Brown Bears need certain trees, plants, streams (depth, flow and ground cover for certain fish) and grasses for food and shelter. Each species has changed and adapted to its ecosystem. We need to worry about other organisms. We don't want biological and genetic breakdown of biological communities to Earth's ecosystems.

What do I mean by biological breakdown? The loss of species diversity. What do I mean by genetic breakdown? The loss of a species ability to fend off disease or deal with parasites.

I apologize for the off-topic post but I read what was stated so I added my thoughts.

Edited by deuterium, 18 July 2006 - 02:22 PM.


#503 arunma

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:31 PM

No problem. Alas, I'm still upset that this thread went all evolution/creation on us.




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