192 replies to this topic

[Crazy Penguin]

The way I see it, with the backstory to A Link to the Past the developers were saying "this is the legend" and when they made Ocarina of Time "but this is how it really happened".

[Crazy Penguin]

I still see it as a retcon and nothing more. I doubt the developers thought anyone would nitpick so much.

[Hero of Slime]

OoT can not be the ALttP's Backstory when TWW comes before ALttP.

[mohammedali]

snip

Good post. It's an interesting theory, and although I got a little lost in the large array of quotes there, I understand where you're coming from.
There are a few issues though. Firstly, if a set of sages had sealed the SR before Adult OoT, then how did Ganon escape? Why did no one mention that he had been sealed?

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Ganondorf wasn't actually imprisoned during the Imprisoning (Seal) War.  The wise men sealed the source of evil--the portal to the Sacred (now Evil) Realm. They did not seal Ganon himself away, which is why Zelda and the sages sought afterwards in OoT's adult story to tempt him back into his Evil Realm before resealing it.

Firstly, the 'source of evil' was the passage to the SR. In OoT this is shown to be the ToT. It's not sealed in the 7 years as Link uses it plenty of times. Hence, not only is there no suggestion towards there being a seal, but it also isn't possible given the way the game plays.
Secondly, what would be the point in sealing the enterence if Ganon gets back? We see that Ganon was there and all his monsters, yet in aLttP Manual (Jap) it says the Sages and Knights held a heroic battle with the evil one and that although the Knights perished, the seal was completed and Hyrule celebrated. This doesn't really work if Ganon's terorising the world. Not all that much to celebrate.
Finally, aLttP BS suggests that the seal mentioned lead to peace. i.e. there was no worry about Ganon after the seal had been placed. This doesn't work if Link fights Ganon in Hyrule after the seals been placed. Also note that the seal was maintained from aLttP BS till aLttP.

I actually believe that OoT is aLttP BS, though this is nothing like the explination I go by. You need to explain your theory better if you want to be at a more acceptable standard. At the moment there are quite a few potholes, but if you can explain them well enough with supporting quotes and without unnecessary fanfic, then it could be taken more seriously. I look forward to seeing how you develop this.

And, as these quotes from OoT regarding the entrance to the Sacred Realm prove, they did.

They don't prove it at all. They may suggest a seal already existed at best but not prove.
Not only could the quotes be talking about something completely different, it could also be related to another seal altogether. After all, it was a plea to the ancient creators of Hyrule, so it could be the seal they created when seperating the SR from the Lightworld. Infact, that seems more likely IMO.
Also note that this was translated, and opening the seal in Japanesse could also be the same as just opening (e.g. there may be no difference between 'opening' a banana, and opening a seal someone has placed on a banana).

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

OoT can not be the ALttP's Backstory when TWW comes before ALttP.

Come on Zol, you should know better than that. Just because aLttP and WW cannot be resolved well together in a single timeline, doesn't disprove the connection. There are plenty of ways they can work together. The fact that it is suggested in game that aLttP BS is OoT and the fact that it's been confirmed by Nintendo staff is all the proof you need for them to be connected. Otherwise anyone could turn around and say "WW isn't a sequal to OoT. It's about another 'Hero of Time'". In fact that would be more plausable than to discredit OoT - aLttP given Zeldas quote about there being a legendary hero of time... If there may have been one before OoT, why not one after?

Mohammed Ali

[Vazor]

I've got to say that this is a very solid theory, Terranix, however there is still one inconsistancy between OoT and LTTP that can not be reconciled without considerable fanficcing. At the end of OoT, Ganon is sealed inside the SR with the Triforce of Power, yet in LTTP, he clearly has the entire Triforce. The ToC and ToW didn't just waltz into the Dark World over those generations.

[Hero of Slime]

The fact that it is suggested in game that aLttP BS is OoT and the fact that it's been confirmed by Nintendo staff is all the proof you need for them to be connected.

It is true that it was suggested buy the crators at the time of OoT but since the release of TWW it is obvious that the timeline was changed. The timeline is not solid and quotes by the game creators become invalid with the release of new games.

[mohammedali]

I've got to say that this is a very solid theory, Terranix, however there is still one inconsistancy between OoT and LTTP that can not be reconciled without considerable fanficcing.  At the end of OoT, Ganon is sealed inside the SR with the Triforce of Power, yet in LTTP, he clearly has the entire Triforce.  The ToC and ToW didn't just waltz into the Dark World over those generations.

But it may have been sent to him by a follower the same way Aghanim sent the maiderns and Zelda to Ganon. There are loads of other ways to explain it. It doesn't have to be that OoT shows us.

Mohammed Ali

[Vazor]

But it may have been sent to him by a follower the same way Aghanim sent the maiderns and Zelda to Ganon. There are loads of other ways to explain it. It doesn't have to be that OoT shows us.

Like I said; it can't be explained without sufficient fanficcing. Which that is.

[mohammedali]

Like I said; it can't be explained without sufficient fanficcing.  Which that is.

True, but it's still not an inconsistancy. It just means the whole story wasn't told.

It is true that it was suggested buy the crators at the time of OoT but since the release of TWW it is obvious that the timeline was changed. The timeline is not solid and quotes by the game creators become invalid with the release of new games.

Why is it obvious that the timeline was changed? Has there been a statement by Nintendo saying aLttP BS is not OoT? Plenty of people on these boards have OoT as the prequal to both aLttP and WW without contradiction. I don't see how WW can be considered proof to OoT not being aLttP BS.

Mohammed Ali

[Chaltab]

Wow, this was a really good post. Now we just have to figure out how the Triforce got back into the Dark World.

[Hero of Legend]

Hm... That was the most complicated theory I have ever read. I commend you for making it, but I doubt that it is what the creators intended.

My own solution to the problems between OoT, ALttP and the IW is a lot simpler.

In short: Who says that OoT is the ENTIRE IW? I view every game between OoT and ALttP as parts of the IW. The "war" spoken of in ALttP is a yet to be made game which takes place right before ALttP. Of course, this game contains the Knights of Hyrule, and the Sages who seal Ganondorf in that game are Hylian... But technically the Sages from OoT COULD interbreed with Hylians. So that isn't a problem for any theory.

And I agree with The Zol that TWW changed the timeline. But was OoT ever intended to be the (entire) IW? Not necessarily. You need some serious fan fiction to connect OoT and ALttP. In fact, it seems likely that Nintendo only gave Ganondorf the ToP so that they could place new games (such as TWW) between OoT and ALttP.

[Crazy Penguin]

It really doesn't matter. The inconsistencies are negligible.

[Tri-Enforcer]

When Link returns to the past for the final time, he keeps the MS within it's pedestal and knows not to pull it. Perhaps he is sent back just before Ganon is able to enter the SR--in other words Ganon was following Link...waiting for him to draw the sword, but to his disappointment, Link does not do this. Stop asking about why the ToC mark is on child Link's hand at the end of OOT, if Ganon doesn't split the Triforce. If you're going to ask that, then ask why do we see Triforce marks on Ganon, Link and Zelda during certain times of the TWW's final battle sequence? Considering we saw the the pieces leave them, then combine...then the King made a wish on the Triforce (this is prior to the final battle)...but yet though we still see the marks on them respectively. Glitch? Destined to have certain parts? Once held those parts? Whatever answer, simply apply that to the mark we see at the end of OOT.

Going on.... With his plans foiled, Ganon must rethink another way into the SR considering the MS is the lock/key to it's entrance. It wouldn't do any good killing Link, since Ganon needs him to pull the MS, right? With no Triforce, Ganon isn't powerful enough to hold back Hyrule's forces and must go into hiding. Obviously the kingdom will now be on high alert. Now, that's it's safe to return to the castle...Zelda and Impa do so. This is when we see Link and Zelda in the courtyard at the final scene of OOT. (Making sense now isn't it).

Zelda, through her telepathic powers could see for herself that Link is honest about his exploits across time. Especially when he shows the mark on his hand to her and the rest of the Royal Family. (that's if the mark wasn't a glitch or wasn't supposed to be there...heck where is it in MM?) Then his story is held as a 'dear' legend to the Royal Family (as stated in the MM intro). Link decides to go off to search for a 'friend', he doesn't intend on being gone for long, considering the Hyrule is on high alert for Ganon. However, he mistakenly ends up in Termina. We do not know if he returns to Hyrule or not.

Since Ganon knows the where the Triforce is hidden. The Royal Family, knows it is not safe to keep the Triforce in the same place, let alone the entrance to the SR. The sages of this time period, remove the Triforce and place it in a different part of the SR. They also change the spell on the MS, making it no longer a lock/key for the SR. The SR entrance at the ToT is sealed up as well. Over time, the location of the the SR is forgotten:

(LTTP BS)Many aggressively searched for the wish-granting Triforce, but no one, not even the Hylian sages, was sure of its location; the knowledge had been lost over time.

In OOT the sages, Like Rauru and even Zelda knew of it's location. However, this may me referring to a different time period. This may tie into my statement about the Triforce's location being lost over time after it was moved elsewhere.

In Hyrule, there are many Hylian buildings which are mentioned repeatedly in the legends. These buildings, which now lie in ruin, pale shadows of their former splendor, are closely tied to the Triforce. Some were said to house the Triforce itself...

No doubt one of these ruins could've been the Temple of Time or whatever location the Triforce was placed at after OOT.

(LTTP: SAHASRAHLA) Generations ago, an order of
knights protected Hylian
royalty. These Knights of
Hyrule were also guardians
of the Pendant of Courage.
It has been said that whenever disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sages
created their seal, so itwas thought a hero would
never again emerge

As you know, in OOT you needed the sacred stones go beyond the Door of Time, which had the MS behind it. Keep in mind the stones are used to open the Door of Time, not remove the MS. There were no pendants in OOT nor was the Pendant of Courage guarded by the Knights of Hyrule. Also, Link didn't need any items to pull the MS. This particular story apparently doesn't take place during the time of OOT. Perhaps when the MS' spell is changed and when it's placed elsewhere, the Pendants are used as a lock/key mechanism to pull the Master Sword, which is the case in LTTP.

(LTTP: Maiden in Swamp Palace) That is why it was hidden in
the Golden Land. Only a select
few were told of its location,

but at some point that
knowledge was lost...
The person who rediscovered

the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.

This reconfirms what was mentioned in the backstory and my explanation about the Triforce's loaction being lost over time. Also, when it says 'rediscover'...it makes it seem as if everyone had not a clue to where the Triforce was, but Ganon rediscovered it before anyone was else could rediscovered it.


Moving forward.... Obviously, a great deal of time has passed now that the SR location is now forgotten. Looking Kwame and Koatake, it seems as though some Gerudo could live for over a century or longer. Eventually after decade and decades of searching, Ganon rediscovers the SR. He eventually takes the Triforce for himself. This time the Triforce does not split. Why? By this time Ganon has a more balanced heart. What does balanced or imbalanced heart means anyway? It doesn't mean good and evil. The Triforce can't distinguish between the two. I took 'imbalance heart' to mean that Ganon in OOT had mixed emotions...he wasn't purely evil enough. Just like Link has to be purely good to obtain the whole Triforce. Then Ganon has to be either purely good or purely evil--no inbetweens. Then again it could mean that Ganon was too anxious and not wise enough for power at the time of OOT. Whatver the case...Ganon at this time (in my theory) has a 'balanced heart'.

Then the events of the IW go on to happen. Then Ganon is sealed with along with the whole Triforce, courtesy of the Sages and the Knights and NOT a green clad boy with the Master Sword (there was no time to find someone to handle the MS). This sets up LTTP quite nicely.

Oh...what about the TWW? I'm a splitter baby...do the math.

However it may sound...in my theory OOT is still before LTTP, only that it's not the BS to LTTP. Nonetheless some other event, which stems from the events of OOT, is the LTTP BS. Also, this helps to explain why the Triforce is whole in LTTP; why the MS has a different function and location; why Link might've had the mark on his hand at the end of OOT; and why pendants are needed to access the MS in LTTP not in OOT.

[Chaltab]

Hm. I thought the needing balance to recieve the whole Triforce bit was a direct refference to each piece's powers.

You have to have power, wisdom, and courage equally ballanced within your mind and body to use the whole thing; Ganondorf's lust for power meant he could only obtain the ToP.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Hm. I thought the needing balance to recieve the whole Triforce bit was a direct refference to each piece's powers.

You have to have power, wisdom, and courage equally ballanced within your mind and body to use the whole thing; Ganondorf's lust for power meant he could only obtain the ToP.

That could be it too. I'd buy that. So you can still apply that to my theory without changing it.

[Hero of Slime]

Why is it obvious that the timeline was changed?

In TWW; Ganon is released from the seal placed in OoT, He does not have any part of the Triforce at the end, and Hyrule is destroyed. All those things contradict the previous OoT-AlttP connection. With TWW, trying to make a connection would only be fanficcing.

[mohammedali]

In TWW; Ganon is released from the seal placed in OoT, He does not have any part of the Triforce, and Hyrule is destroyed. All those things contradict the previous OoT-AlttP connection. With TWW, trying to make a connection would only be fanficcing.

I fail to understand what you mean. In WW, Ganon bypassed a seal that was cast by the Gods after OoT and he did have a part of the Triforce - ToP. And I don't see why the WW has to be seen as meaning OoT - aLttP is not possible. It can be argued just as easily that WW has no connection to OoT than it can for aLttP.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Slime]

In AlttP, Ganon had been sealed in the sacred realm since the Imprisoning War. If OoT is the Imprisoning War then Ganon has been in the sacred realm since OoT. However TWW shows that he has not. At the end of TWW Ganon had no Triforce pieces and was not sealed in the sacred realm. How could OoT be describing how Ganon ended up the way he was in ALttP if TWW is between them?

[Tri-Enforcer]

In AlttP, Ganon had been sealed in the sacred realm since the Imprisoning War. If OoT is the Imprisoning War then Ganon has been in the sacred realm since OoT. However TWW shows that he has not. At the end of TWW Ganon had no Triforce pieces and was not sealed in the sacred realm. How could OoT be describing how Ganon ended up the way he was in ALttP if TWW is between them?

Amen

[mohammedali]

In AlttP, Ganon had been sealed in the sacred realm since the Imprisoning War. If OoT is the Imprisoning War then Ganon has been in the sacred realm since OoT. However TWW shows that he has not. At the end of TWW Ganon had no Triforce pieces and was not sealed in the sacred realm. How could OoT be describing how Ganon ended up the way he was in ALttP if TWW is between them?

Simple. WW is obviously not inbetween them. That's the conclusion you should come to. There are plenty of ways this could work. I will give a few, but none are known to be canon and are only theories. Feel free to adopt one if you choose.

1) WW is set after aLttP. Ganon gets the ToP back again some how, it is not known when.
2) There is a timeline split during OoT. One timeline leads to aLttP. The other timeline leads to WW.
3) WW occurs in a 'gaidern' timeline which is unassociated to aLttP in any way.
4) WW has no relation with OoT and WW BS is completely seperate to OoT.

Any of those are possible, though #1 could be found to have some inconsistancies if you assume OoT is WW BS. However, there are ways it could work which do not contradict the canon. Hence, just because aLttP and WW do not resolve the way you want them to, doesn't mean they can't resolve at all. If there is a possible way for two games to link without going against canon, then it's a legitimate possibility.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Dude, with the the exception of a split timeline, you mean to tell me those are the best options you can come up with in piecing TWW into the equation?

If you propose those options then how about just having the IW being a seperate event from OOT. If you do it that way you can place OOT long before LTTP and the IW or you could place OOT long after LTTP. It's that simple, just seperate OOT from the IW, how about that option? With the exception of the split, having the IW seperate from OOT is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] better than the other 3 options.

It could be something like this OOT-TWW-IW-LTTP or IW-LTTP-OOT-TWW

[mohammedali]

Dude, with the the exception of a split timeline, you mean to tell me those are the best options you can come up with in piecing TWW into the equation?
 
If you propose those options then how just having the IW being a seperate event from OOT. If you do it that way you can place OOT long before LTTP and the IW or you could place OOT long after LTTP. It's that simple, just seperate OOT from the IW, how about that option? With the exception of the split, having the IW seperate from OOT is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] better than the other 3 options.
 
It could be something like this OOT-TWW-IW-LTTP or IW-LTTP-OOT-TWW

The point I was making is not on what is the best option, but the fact that there are options to take. Some people think WW is justification enough for denying OoT-aLttP when it clearly isn't. The fact remains that aLttP is linked to OoT. This was confirmed by the creators and until official word from Nintendo says otherwise, there is absolutely no reason to doubt it. If you want to come up with a timeline that resembles the one Nintendo most likely maintain then aLttP BS = OoT. If not, and you just want to make a timeline for your own personal amusement, then by all means place it anywhere - just don't claim it as being anything else. To have aLttP BS as anything other than OoT is clearly a perversion of what Nintendo intended. There is no rational reason why it can't be maintained. Having said that, I am sympothetic towards the idea of OoT being aLttP BS in part but not the whole IW - I think this is a possibilty, but anything futher than that would be going too far.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

I think this is a possibilty, but anything futher than that would be going too far

Such as a split?

[mohammedali]

Such as a split?

A split is fine, and IMO implied, providing it allows for WW and aLttP to both be sequals of OoT.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Slime]

mohammedali, why don't you think that the Timeline can change? The statement about OoT made by the game's creators many years ago is no longer valid since TWW contradicts it. Nintendo does not need to make a statement that they have changed their minds about the story because TWW is their statement. TWW's connection between OoT is much stronger than ALttP's. TWW's Backstory of TWW actually refers to the Hero of Time, who is not included in ALttP backstory.