105 replies to this topic

[Alakhriveion]

NO-ONE on the right has room to talk about support of democracy- and neither do most people on the left. Democracy cannot exist without socialism, and visa versa.

Lynne- please make an effort towards gramatically reasonable posts.

[Oberon Storm]

I have already given links and examples on the first page of this thread demonstrating how Kerry has NOT flip floped. It is all a bunch of crap. Absolute crap. And those links also demonstrate that amendments to bills often force ANY politician to vote one way or the other. They say Kerry voted 98 times to raise taxes. Well why doesn't someone find those 98 different bills and actually show me? Then look through it. Amendments and all. If you can tell me why Kerry might have voted for it I'll give you a fucking cookie. But I can almost promise it wasn't to raise taxes.

In response to Ditto, The United States is NOT a democracy. It is a republic. The people do not make the decisions. The peoiple elct the people that make the decisions. Had you paid attention in history you would know that.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Before Ditto can say anything to argue against your point, SoJE, here is a definition of democracy and republic.

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -cies
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government —dem·o·crat·ic /"de-m&-'kra-tik/ adjective —dem·o·crat·i·cal·ly adverb

Unfortunately, due to recent wranglings Democracy also means:

Government by popular representation, which is, incidentally, what the US could be argued to be.

Main Entry: re·pub·lic
Function: noun
1 : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president; also : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government
2 : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law; also : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government

Technically, the only true democracy to have ever existed was the Athenian Democracy where everyone voted on every single issue.

The US, however, can clearly be stated to be a plutocracy:

Definition:

• Government by the wealthy.
• A wealthy class that controls a government.
• A government or state in which the wealthy rule.

I'm not entirely sure about the majority of Senators and Representatives and Presidents, but I'm very sure that the majority of them are wealthy. In fact, if you can find me a single poor person in the Government then I'll eat this sandwich.

[Alakhriveion]

Athens wasn't quite a true democracy, either, it's impossible for it to function without, at a minimum, great social security and public education, and ideally, universal economic equality.

[Alakhriveion]

Or slaves, or immigrants, or the poor.

[Oberon Storm]

All kerry has done thus far is flip flop. The man cannot make a solid decision. LOL. It is so true when it was said the man can spend 90 minutes debating with himself.

Do you even bother to read what other people say? Or do you go out of your way to be ignorant?

[Ditto McCloaker]

I don't see how it's any different, qualitatively, from any of the stuff I hear from your side. You guys don't really listen to us, either. "Ignorant" is a word I've been straining to keep myself from saying, but, hey, I guess NOW the gloves are off, now?

Flip Flop - A switch of position, or statements of policy which are either contradictory or cover ALL popular bases, for political expediency or for populistic purposes.

We demonstrated it. You guys responded "Yeah, but... it doesn't matter cuz it means he's open-minded lol!"

I say again, nobody complained about Armageddon, who wrote even more poorly, but was on your side, which proves your bias.

She's not the best debater, but I think it's funny that she's like a parody of you guys. You people are so yellow dog it's not even funny. You wouldn't renounce Kerry if he was the last candidate on Earth (except for someone worse, like Nader).

And now you've called her ignorant. Welcome to flame land. Lynne, you wanna report them, or shall I? I refer you to DarkJuno, he's on our side. You don't have to take this from these bullies.

[Oberon Storm]

First, I didn't flame anyone. And don't use DJ against me just beacuse he is "one of you". DJ doesn't work like that. I would like to think, and I am pretty sure he does, have a tad more integrity than that.

Second, none of us like it when others post in here without at least attempting to sound intelligent. I don't care what side you're on. If you come at me with a shitty post I'll call you out on it. But you're right. I just looked back and no one said a word to Armeggadon. A shame that shall be remedied.

Armeggadon, capitalization never hurt anyone.

Third, this was my response to several examples Vorpal gave to kerry flip flopping. Once again, Kerry does not flip. That flip flop thing is nothing but big steaming pile of crap.

WAR IN IRAQ
"...reliance by the United States on further
diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either
(A)will not adequately protect the national security of
the United States against the continuing threat
posed by Iraq or
(B ) is not likely to lead to enforce-
ment of all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq..."

Source - This would be the text of the bill that authorized the use of force.

Kerry's stance has always been that he did not feel Bush used all other options and that Bush botched the war in Iraq by not having an exit strategy, or really not much of any plan for a post war Iraq.

MARRIAGE PENALTY
That bill you cited as an example of Kerry voting against the marriage penalty reliefe, was actually tobacco legislation. There was 269 different amendments to that bill, including S. AMDT 2437, introduced by Senator Gramm. The amendment was to use the National Tobacco Trust Fund to pay for the elimination of the marriage penalty.

Source

PATRIOT ACT
I think everyone else has already mentioned reasons for his vote for the Patriot Act. It would have been political suicide not to. Anyone that might have had any scruples over that was put between a rock and a hard place situation. The fact John Ashcroft didn't vote for it is immaterial. He isn't a senator.

ETHANOL
H.R. 4624 included S. AMDT 2446 which denied funds to enforce an EPA regulation that a certain percentage of ethanol be in reformulated gasoline. The amendment only apllied to foreign refineries.

S. Con.Res 18 included both S. AMDT 186 and S. AMDT 222. These admendments would have exempted ethanol from the BTU tax. The BTU tax taxed energy created by unfavorable sources like oil.

S. 517 had S. ADMT 3139, which itself was an admendment to S. ADMT 2917. This admendment held ethanol liable to the same standards as other fuels in regard to the environment.

Source

BARRIERE TO PEACE
Do you have a link or something for the article for the Jerusalem Post. I believe there is a little part where Kerry say his objection is to the path the wall takes. A part you convienently left out. Not a flip flop.

EDIT - Oh yeah. HoW. That "I vote for it before I voted against it" wasn't a flip flop either. Kerry proposed an admendment that would roll back the top 2% of Bush's tax cuts so that they could actually pay for the 87 billion. The admendment didn't pass.

So as you can see, at least I have answered the acusations of flip flopping. What is worse is that neither you nor lynne have given any examples yourselves. All you do is continually say "His record speaks for itself", which translates to "I do not know what I am talking about so I will pull this response out of my ass".

[Ditto McCloaker]

By "on our side" I meant he shows no partiality, which can't be said about all our mods, but I'm not getting into that one.

While I'm hunting for that video, give me your definition of a flip flop.

Edit: I found it. God Bless small forums.
http://media1.stream2you.com/rnc/072304v2.wmv

You need Windows Media Player, but this is all we need. Under Clinton, Kerry was saying the same things about Saddam Bush says now. These views dried up when they became those of his political rival's. The information hasn't really changed since.

[Oberon Storm]

Dude, I know that our mods, save maybe one, aren't the best in the world. But there really is no use in saying anything. It gets us no where. Hell soem might say we have crossed a line just bringing it up. But still, tell the admins whatever you want. I did nothing wrong.

You can also find whatever video you want and I will shoot it down as hogshit.

[Ditto McCloaker]

Then you may fire when ready, Fudd. It's Kerry season.

And I agree. I did something dangerous by pointing a finger at our Mods. I have this thing about standing up to corruption. It'll probably be the end of me one day.

[Alakhriveion]

Hell soem might say we have crossed a line just bringing it up.

No... that why there're three of us. This is the second most popular part of LA, quality could be better. Public complaints, though, are iffy.

[Alakhriveion]

And I agree.  I did something dangerous by pointing a finger at our Mods.  I have this thing about standing up to corruption.  It'll probably be the end of me one day.

Ah, just seen this.

Corruption? Dude, it's a free forum, you're a voluntary member, and we're appointed (by merit- check them rules) at that. Don't like it? Leave!

[Hero of Winds]

In response to Ditto, The United States is NOT a democracy. It is a republic. The people do not make the decisions. The peoiple elct the people that make the decisions. Had you paid attention in history you would know that.

America is technically a democracy. Republics are also called indirect democracies, whereas a democracy is a direct democracy.

Corruption? Dude, it's a free forum, you're a voluntary member, and we're appointed (by merit- check them rules) at that. Don't like it? Leave!

To be fair, all of the mods are in support of Kerry. Not really corruption, but what I think Ditto meant was that the mods are all biased towards the left, which is kinda true.

Which is why Korhend and his facist ways must regain mod power!

[Alakhriveion]

To be fair, all of the mods are in support of Kerry. Not really corruption, but what I think Ditto meant was that the mods are all biased towards the left, which is kinda true.

We don't use the rules against either side, though- mostly because we keep forgetting to enforce them at all. The only people we've suspended/jailed were badme and Ditto, a liberal and a conservative.

[Hero of Winds]

We don't use the rules against either side, though- mostly because we keep forgetting to enforce them at all. The only people we've suspended/jailed were badme and Ditto, a liberal and a conservative.

Badme wasn't liberal. At least not in support of Kerry, anyways.

[Dryth]

Badme wasn't liberal. At least not in support of Kerry, anyways.

Perhaps because Kerry himself isn't liberal?

It isn't exactly flattering that he deems mods having an opinion as "corruption." Most would take it to be an insult. Particularly in the face of Ditto's own constant us-vs-them-ism on the forums, enabled by several others.

If we're really going to make the grammar thing a huge issue, we could always branch off a topic on how lax grammar usage can not only negatively impact an argument, but also be insulting to the other participants?

[Hero of Winds]

Perhaps because Kerry himself isn't liberal?

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0204/022704nj1.htm

 Judging by National Journal's congressional vote ratings, however, Kerry and Edwards aren't all that different, at least not when it comes to how they voted on key issues before the Senate last year. The results of the vote ratings show that Kerry was the most liberal senator in 2003, with a composite liberal score of 96.5. But Edwards wasn't far behind: He had a 2003 composite liberal score of 94.5, making him the fourth-most-liberal senator.

If that's not a good enough source, I'll give you another.

[Alistia]

I fail to see why Ditto still hasn't been banned from this specific section. o.o

If he has, then ignore this. If not... I dunno, maybe a petition is in order or something.

I like to think that Contro has some enforcement within it, but I'm not sure if it really does. :s

[Ditto McCloaker]

Like exhuasting diplomacy before invading.

Dude. Diplomacy isn't something that can *be* exhuasted. You can give a thug 100 chances, you can be slammed for not giving him 101.

People forget the months leading up to the war. We gave the dude resolution after resolution, and then jumped down Bush's throat when he said "Okay, no more resolutions, let's try actually following through on the provisions of what we've already got."

Saddam had shot at our planes over the no-fly zone. He was stalling our inspectors. We had wire-taps where generals were saying to move stuff. THEY were wire-tapping US. No evidence was being found, but NOBODY was ready to say right off the guy was CLEAN.

And Bush said "Okay, bring out all the weapons you have and set them down," and when they said they didn't have anything, Bush said "Okay, get yourself and your family out, while we go in and look around, and we can avoid war."

See, you can keep being DIPLOMATIC til a guy slashes your throat. Fifty years ago, no world leader would have gotten away with this, and nobody would accept this as reasonable criticism of a U.S. President.

To be fair, all of the mods are in support of Kerry. Not really corruption, but what I think Ditto meant was that the mods are all biased towards the left, which is kinda true.

They started "remembering" the rules when it was me. Badme wasn't really liberal. He was just kinda out there.

Particularly in the face of Ditto's own constant us-vs-them-ism on the forums, enabled by several others.

It's been us-vs-them for a long time. It's just it was all liberals and Democrats vs the Bush Administration. Nobody complained then.

Aluk, I would, but I've had too many people thanking me for making it alright to voice these sorts of opinions, again. You guys have no idea what you've done to these people. Today's right-wing has gone soft.

I fail to see why Ditto still hasn't been banned from this specific section. o.o

What rule am I breaking NOW? Dissenting? How nice do I have to be? Hero of Winds nice?

Alista, you once posted "how about, if Bush wins, I shoot you?" Did ANYBODY find THAT against the rules? I'm not even attacking anybody. I'm just being passionate and aggressive. Is THAT against the rules?

Before we talk about banning anybody else, I nominate Hero of Winds for Moderator, and give him veto power over any banning decisions. You people just don't realize how your personal opinions affect your assessment of other people's behavior.

[Alakhriveion]

What rule am I breaking NOW? Dissenting? How nice do I have to be? Hero of Winds nice?

The rules are mostly commentary. Essentially, keep it impersonal. You fail to do this consistantly.

Aluk, I would, but I've had too many people thanking me for making it alright to voice these sorts of opinions, again. You guys have no idea what you've done to these people. Today's right-wing has gone soft.

So? After the fall of the USSR, the global left has been lead by socialists and liberals... in short, castrated.

No evidence was being found, but NOBODY was ready to say right off the guy was CLEAN.

Niether is anyone. The only nation that's never violated a UN Resolution is... Canada? Geesus, even they might have, but they have the best record thus far. As for the worst, that's actually Israel, followed by the US of A.

And Bush said "Okay, bring out all the weapons you have and set them down," and when they said they didn't have anything, Bush said "Okay, get yourself and your family out, while we go in and look around, and we can avoid war."

Actually... Hussien fully complied with inspectors, and after several weeks, they did find illicit weapons, missiles capable of reaching Syria, which were promptly destroyed. As it is generally accepted that powerful weapons did not exist in Iraq, and have for many years, the reasoning that they provide a rationale for military action and invasion is not considered rational.*


*See? Impersonal. I'm not attacking you.

[Hero of Winds]

Actually... Hussien fully complied with inspectors, and after several weeks, they did find illicit weapons, missiles capable of reaching Syria, which were promptly destroyed. As it is generally accepted that powerful weapons did not exist in Iraq, and have for many years, the reasoning that they provide a rationale for military action and invasion is not considered rational.*


*See? Impersonal. I'm not attacking you.

Hussein did most certainly not fully comply with inspectors. Are you forgetting they weren't allowed in certain areas? Are you forgetting the scientists who were threatened with death not to say anything to inspectors? Don't try to make Saddam out to be a more reasonable man than he really is.

[Oberon Storm]

I fail to see why Ditto still hasn't been banned from this specific section. o.o

If he has, then ignore this. If not... I dunno, maybe a petition is in order or something.

I like to think that Contro has some enforcement within it, but I'm not sure if it really does. :s

I agree. Or else get him to stop going out of his way to be condescending. There are other conservatives here who do not have this problem.

[Dryth]

If that's not a good enough source, I'll give you another.

And I have my own source: Canada's political environment.

It's been us-vs-them for a long time. It's just it was all liberals and Democrats vs the Bush Administration. Nobody complained then.

It's never been us-vs-them. Life isn't about dichotomies, but whenever there's any squeeze room to push groupism, you seem to dive all over it. Not everyone's out to take a side, yours or anyone else's. Again, refer back to your comment regarding corruption, and previous suggestion of mods taking sides based on arbitrary aspects of their ideology.

It doesn't help that you act as if you're somehow a saviour of the Right, on the forums. The forums have long had right-wing members, and those long-standing are those that're courteous about it. It's a diverse spectrum, and while there is more of a left lean than a right one, few are so one-dimensional as to hold extreme views one way or another. Which, again, is why "us-vs-them" mentality is a nuissance.

And what the heck is this?

They started "remembering" the rules when it was me.

Since we're having a big, vacuous, negative character assumption parade, when'd you stop beating your wife?

[SteveT]

I fail to see why Ditto still hasn't been banned from this specific section. o.o

If he has, then ignore this. If not... I dunno, maybe a petition is in order or something.

I like to think that Contro has some enforcement within it, but I'm not sure if it really does. :s

Sentence 3 explains sentence 1. Well, that and other concerns of course.

Life isn't about dichotomies

Come now, Dryth, you disappoint me. You're making one statement to throw away centuries of Western Philosophy. Heracleitus, man...

The entire universe is based around dichotomy and conflict.

[Dryth]

Come now, Dryth, you disappoint me. You're making one statement to throw away centuries of Western Philosophy. Heracleitus, man...

The entire universe is based around dichotomy and conflict.

Perhaps we could spin this off into a philosophical debate?

Yes, dichotomies do occur, but to treat human nature and ideals as if they're all black and white is a fallacy (i.e. false dichotomy). Such occurs on a regular basis, but that doesn't make it right, and it's often abused to undermine reasonable debate. For example, using "with us or against us" to undermine the character of dissenters. The same is true for "us versus them"; If you aren't with us, you're with them, and can't be trusted. Or, in Ditto's case, they apparently corrupt and biased specifically against him.

Y'know. Biased against him because he's "right" and they're "left." Not because of some other factor like him being condescending or anything. Which couldn't possibly be possible... after all, it's them suggesting such an outrageous notion.

(Yeah, suck my sarcasm and ad hominem )