105 replies to this topic

[Custommagnum]

I'm still laughing that Bush declared war on the United States.

Anyway, most of Kerry's 'flip-flops' are taken out of context, not to mention most of them have enough time for him to change his mind.

[Alistia]

Originally posted by HoW
Except Clinton said he didn't have sex with her. And he kept it up. Bush just mispeaks and people interpret it the wrong way. If Clinton meant to say he did have sex with Lewinsky, don't you think he would've clarified that?

"We have evidence that Saddam Hussein holds weapons of mass destruction."

"Saddam Hussein is a threat to the world."

"We have evidence linking Saddam Hussein to Al-Qaeda."





Yes, HoW. I guess everybody else on the planet just interpreted all that the wrong way. Silly us, eh?

[Alakhriveion]

Contest that while you can- The word "sex" dropped oral from it's encompassment in the standard lexicon some years ago, in a few more, the fact that oral sex is sex will be a point of linguistics. It's all a reslut of the exponential increase in teenage sexual promiscuity created by the advent of the mobil-wireless cellular tele-phone.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 23 2004, 03:53 PM
Contest that while you can- The word "sex" dropped oral from it's encompassment in the standard lexicon some years ago, in a few more, the fact that oral sex is sex will be a point of linguistics.  It's all a reslut of the exponential increase in teenage sexual promiscuity created by the advent of the mobil-wireless cellular tele-phone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a strangely relevant and adequate misspelling...

Back on track, however, Bush also stated things about never cutting taxes during a war or something like that. Didn't he also (or someone from his Administration) also claim that the cost of rebuilding Iraq wouldn't be paid for by American taxpayers?

[Oberon Storm]

WAR IN IRAQ
"...reliance by the United States on further
diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either
(A)will not adequately protect the national security of
the United States against the continuing threat
posed by Iraq or
(B ) is not likely to lead to enforce-
ment of all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq..."

Source - This would be the text of the bill that authorized the use of force.

Kerry's stance has always been that he did not feel Bush used all other options and that Bush botched the war in Iraq by not having an exit strategy, or really not much of any plan for a post war Iraq.

MARRIAGE PENALTY
That bill you cited as an example of Kerry voting against the marriage penalty reliefe, was actually tobacco legislation. There was 269 different amendments to that bill, including S. AMDT 2437, introduced by Senator Gramm. The amendment was to use the National Tobacco Trust Fund to pay for the elimination of the marriage penalty.

Source

PATRIOT ACT
I think everyone else has already mentioned reasons for his vote for the Patriot Act. It would have been political suicide not to. Anyone that might have had any scruples over that was put between a rock and a hard place situation. The fact John Ashcroft didn't vote for it is immaterial. He isn't a senator.

ETHANOL
H.R. 4624 included S. AMDT 2446 which denied funds to enforce an EPA regulation that a certain percentage of ethanol be in reformulated gasoline. The amendment only apllied to foreign refineries.

S. Con.Res 18 included both S. AMDT 186 and S. AMDT 222. These admendments would have exempted ethanol from the BTU tax. The BTU tax taxed energy created by unfavorable sources like oil.

S. 517 had S. ADMT 3139, which itself was an admendment to S. ADMT 2917. This admendment held ethanol liable to the same standards as other fuels in regard to the environment.

Source

BARRIERE TO PEACE
Do you have a link or something for the article for the Jerusalem Post. I believe there is a little part where Kerry say his objection is to the path the wall takes. A part you convienently left out. Not a flip flop.

EDIT - Oh yeah. HoW. That "I vote for it before I voted against it" wasn't a flip flop either. Kerry proposed an admendment that would roll back the top 2% of Bush's tax cuts so that they could actually pay for the 87 billion. The admendment didn't pass.

Sorry this post took me a while. Had to go to school, then my computer gave me issues. Then my uncle died yesterday, which is a reason behind my name change. Then I couldn't get on LA. I think because they changed the color for us Windfall people.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Wolf_ODonnell@Sep 24 2004, 05:04 PM
What a strangely relevant and adequate misspelling...

Back on track, however, Bush also stated things about never cutting taxes during a war or something like that. Didn't he also (or someone from his Administration) also claim that the cost of rebuilding Iraq wouldn't be paid for by American taxpayers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that actually was an accident... thanks for pointing it out.

[davogones]

Like you said, there's a difference between having the authority to go to war and actually going to war.

It's a matter of principle. There has been a precedent of giving the president the authority to bring us to war in times of national emergency. To deny him this authority would be like denying your head the authority to move your body when a truck is about to run you over and kill you. You don't take a committee vote when a truck is going to run you over in ten seconds. You get the hell out of the way, fast.

Kerry is for giving the president the authority to protect us quickly and efficiently in times of national emergency. He is NOT for going to war when there are viable alternatives and the facts aren't conclusive.

[Hero of Winds]

Kerry is for giving the president the authority to protect us quickly and efficiently in times of national emergency. He is NOT for going to war when there are viable alternatives and the facts aren't conclusive.

Except he did say that, knowing what he knows now, he would have still gone to war.

You know, I can't understand how people can use Iraq or the War on Terrorism as a way to vote Kerry. He's still gonna fight the War on Terrorism; he's still gonna fight the War in Iraq; and, despite his constant sayings that he would've done things "smarter", you can't change the past. Therefore, his "smarter" ways of going to war mean NOTHING.

On top of that, Bush made a good point about Kerry rallying the world behind him: how do you make allies with nations by saying "Join us at the wrong time, in the wrong place, for the wrong thing"?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Except he did say that, knowing what he knows now, he would have still gone to war.

You know, I can't understand how people can use Iraq or the War on Terrorism as a way to vote Kerry. He's still gonna fight the War on Terrorism; he's still gonna fight the War in Iraq; and, despite his constant sayings that he would've done things "smarter", you can't change the past. Therefore, his "smarter" ways of going to war mean NOTHING.

Well, of course he's still gonna fight the War on Terrorism. What do you think he's gonna do? Ignore the terrorists and let them have their way? Or is it that you're confused about the way the word, War, is in the title.

Does a War on Crime mean we send in troops to bust up the criminal gangs or does it mean we use the police force? Does a War on Poverty mean we send in Troops to fight a war against poor people or rich people?

As for Iraq, yes, the fighting is still continuing. And no, Kerry won't pull out. Why? If he does that, it will be no different from saying that the US was wrong or he's a weakling. If anything, Kerry has to prove that he isn't weak to the terrorists so he will have to be even harsher than Bush to make his point.

[Oberon Storm]

Except he did say that, knowing what he knows now, he would have still gone to war.

You know, I can't understand how people can use Iraq or the War on Terrorism as a way to vote Kerry. He's still gonna fight the War on Terrorism; he's still gonna fight the War in Iraq; and, despite his constant sayings that he would've done things "smarter", you can't change the past. Therefore, his "smarter" ways of going to war mean NOTHING.

On top of that, Bush made a good point about Kerry rallying the world behind him: how do you make allies with nations by saying "Join us at the wrong time, in the wrong place, for the wrong thing"?

I'm going to go part way with you. I don't like that Kerry says he still would have authorized force. If he had known the intelligence was false or that here were no WMD'S then there would have been no reason for a war. I do not like that Kerry will continue the policy of pre-emption.

However continuing a war on terrorism isn't all that bad. What is bad is pretending that you can ultimatley win. Which is what Bush tried to tell us for a long time. You need to keep in mind that there is always going to be some wack job out there willing to blow himself up or kill others to prove a point. You have to fight the battles that can be won. Freeze financle assets. Strike and punish them when they do attack. Take the opportuniy to assassinate known leaders like Osama bin Laden. Just don't invade other nations on false pretenses and faulty intelligence.

Kerry hasn't said "Join us at the wrong time, in the wrong place, for the wrong thing". He said, "Oops. Our bad. Please help us fix this mess George made and. Whether you help or not I promise to try not to make a similar mess".

[Oberon Storm]

That too.

[Hero of Winds]

Kerry hasn't said "Join us at the wrong time, in the wrong place, for the wrong thing". He said, "Oops. Our bad. Please help us fix this mess George made and. Whether you help or not I promise to try not to make a similar mess".

Except nobody's going to buy that. Why would any country want to help out in something that has been, admittedly, a mistake?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Well, in the case of Iraq there is the added incentive that if you don't help fix the mess, you're gonna end up with lots of instability in more ways than one. You're gonna end up with more disillusioned people feeling helpless and oppressed and they're going to become terrorists and there's gonna be the uncertainty with oil supplies.

Let's face it. An unstable Middle East is not something you want, especially when most of the world's oil supply is there. We're horribly dependent on black gold.

[davogones]

Can anyone give me a quote of Kerry saying he would have still gone to war. Because all I've seen is a quote with Kerry saying we should NOT have gone to war. And a quote saying that the president does indeed have the authority to take us to war.

And you can't change the past, but you sure as hell can change the future. So if Kerry has a better plan to resolve the mess in Iraq, what are you going on about, HoW? If Kerry WOULD have done something better than Bush in the past, the point is that Kerry WILL do things better than Bush will do, if Kerry is elected.

[Alakhriveion]

Except nobody's going to buy that. Why would any country want to help out in something that has been, admittedly, a mistake?

Remmember Italy? Japan? Germany- twice? Say you're sorry, it was a bad leader, and you didn't mean to invade nobody- they'll help out.

[Oberon Storm]

Except nobody's going to buy that. Why would any country want to help out in something that has been, admittedly, a mistake?

Because he is telling them it was someone elses mistake. That he's is more credible. That he will do a better job. I do not see how it couldn't work.

[davogones]

Except nobody's going to buy that. Why would any country want to help out in something that has been, admittedly, a mistake?

You're buying into Bush's bullshit. (Sorry I can't make it any gentler than that.)

Say you break a lamp, making a huge mess. Your family confronts you and you deny that you made a mistake. Now, is this going to make them more or less willing to help you clean up the mess? They're going to hate your stubbornness and pig-headedness, get fed up and leave you to clean up the mess yourself. Suppose you admitted you broke the lamp, showed true sorrow and repentence, and humbly asked them to help you clean it up. More than likely they'll see your honesty, feel compassion for your predicament, and help you out.

Bush's argument is irrational. Most countries of the world view Iraq as a mistake, as do most Americans (or a great number of them). Sticking to your guns will just piss everyone off more. Admitting that the war was wrong will motivate everyone to help.

It's in everyone's best interests to help fix the situation. Iraq is more dangerous now than it was before. It's a time bomb and it needs to be defused ASAP.

[Oberon Storm]

It has already been demostrated that voting records do not matter. You can't take a bill for face value. They always throw in amendments that have nothing to do with the original intention of the bill. Also this IS politics. Votes are often used as leverage.

Kerry has always stated he was for the war. His beef is with not waiting for inspections to finish, not using all other options, not creating an actual coalition istead of "coalition of the willing", and not have an actual post war plan. He also favors pre-emption policies. I don't agree with him on the war and pre-emption.

I would doubt that Kerry is the only senator the ever misses a few votes. All senators do. Just as all canidates change their position on some issues for the campaign. Particularly during primaries. It is called appealing to the base to get nominated. Then during the general election they move more towards the middle to appeal to everyone else. That's they way it works.

Oh yeah. Sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation never hurt.

[Alakhriveion]

SoJE, you know better than to legitimize a post like that with a response...

[Oberon Storm]

Yes, I know. Couldn't help it. It needed answering.

[Ditto McCloaker]

Wow, Vorpal... that puts me to shame.

Meet my teacher.

Vorpal's the sort who don't like tough fights, so I'm glad my little revolution has been successful enough that he feels comfortable coming.

Indeed, he's good, isn't he?

If I find that video that had actual quotes of Kerry's position changing several times according to political expediency, I'm going to post it. God be my navigator on this...

Clinton having SEX with Monica Lewinsky is impeachable.

No, lying about it in court and deliberately attempting to cover it up before a Grand Jury, THAT'S impeachable.

Oh yeah. Sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation never hurt

Remember when Armaggeddon did the same thing while defending Kerry, and all the Kerry supporters here jumped on him about HIS punctuation? That was funny.

Well, we now live in a world where your voting record and statements are no longer considered an accurate way of judging your character. No, the world is merely too cruel and cold. So let's just judge you on how soft and earnest and apologetic you sound, and how glossy an image you present. In other words, vote Democrat.

Hey, it was said at the beginning of the topic that if Republicans didn't start demonstrating policy changes by Kerry, he'd ban Republicans. We did. So, does this mean we can ban the Democrats?

[Hero of Winds]

No, lying about it in court and deliberately attempting to cover it up before a Grand Jury, THAT'S impeachable.

Yeah. I, uh... know that now.

[Ditto McCloaker]

(ah, ne'ermind)