103 replies to this topic

[Zythe]

I don't think the degree of 'sophistication' in civilisation really affects things much. If Zelda followed the usual rules of development then people would be buzzing around in cars.

Um... says who?

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't think the degree of 'sophistication' in civilisation really affects things much. If Zelda followed the usual rules of development then people would be buzzing around in cars.

You obviously haven't read Caps. One of the best Sci Fi trilogies ever. These aliens invade Earth, and even though they've developed interstellar travel and mind control, they don't have infrared so they use normal searchlights. The professor in the story concludes that industrial revolution can go in many alternate paths and developments, like biological evolution.

[Showsni]

^ According to Showsi's timeline, unless there's an eventful thousand-year gap between AoL and OoT, he doesn't agree.

I think there are pretty long gaps between ALttP and AoL/LoZ, and between AoL and OoT. I think that the temple of time in OoT is built almost immediately after Oracles, and at that time the triforce is moved from where we see it in Oracles to the Sacred Realm. And, of course, there is the fierce war before OoT.

There are a lot of changes between AoL and OoT - all the old villages have vanished, there is a new village (Kakariko) called after the ALttP one, the landscape and technology have radically changed - this must be quite a long gap, then.

[Fyxe]

You obviously haven't read Caps. One of the best Sci Fi trilogies ever. These aliens invade Earth, and even though they've developed interstellar travel and mind control, they don't have infrared so they use normal searchlights. The professor in the story concludes that industrial revolution can go in many alternate paths and developments, like biological evolution.

Yes, and we all know the historical and scientific merit of Sci Fi trilogies.

Star Wars happened, you know.

Showsni, where are you getting that 'language and technology radically changed'? Other than Bombchus, which appear somewhat magical anyway, what massive technological advancements have happened?

I should remind you there are elevators in AoL and bridges that unfold themselves.

[Zythe]

Those seem more magical then robotic mice.

[Fyxe]

Robotic mice that climb walls and ceilings and leave little glowing trails and move despite not appearing to have any kind of propulsion system of any kind?

Yeah, sure. TECHNOLOGY. Excuse me while I drive my flying F-Zero racer to the shops.

[Zythe]

I don't think little points, like physics need considering at all anyway. Switch hook, anyone?

[Fyxe]

LITTLE points? It runs along the bleedin' ceiling.

I don't think they ever intended the Switch Hook to be anything but magical. Hell, it manages to grab Veran when she's all... Insubstantial.

[Zythe]

Exactly. When it's shown to be made of metal and have joints and stuff? Conclusion: all technology in the Zeldaverse is probably magical to some extent.

[Doopliss]

And, we can't change the order of the games just because one game has submarines or flying carpets if the Essence of the Triforce says otherwise.

Personally, I would only use geography and development as a last resource, which I haven't been forced to use yet.

[Fyxe]

Exactly. When it's shown to be made of metal and have joints and stuff? Conclusion: all technology in the Zeldaverse is probably magical to some extent.

Which just backs up my point that 'technology' is by no means a good way of judging where a game lies in the timeline.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, and we all know the historical and scientific merit of Sci Fi trilogies.

Star Wars happened, you know.

Missed my point entirely. Development doesn't always go exactly like it does on Earth. and not like Zelda has any historical or scientific merit either and it did?! so those Australians were RIGHT!!!

[Fyxe]

I didn't miss your point, but who says development doesn't always go like Earth? We have no idea. It might. Technological development may always occur at a general rate and at a general order. In many cases it's just logical; the development of one technology allows the creation of another.

But anyway, this is all moot. The basic point is that the degree of technological sophistication has little or no bearing on the story, in fact the lack of obvious technology in the first two games has more to do with the limits of the NES and games in general and an overall stylistic point (they wanted to set the scene for a medieval-style adventure).

If you ignored Bombchus, which are clearly magical anyway, LoZ/AoL is just as advanced as OoT. I don't think we should base the placement of a game in the timeline due to the existence of Bombchus or not.

These arguements are all meaningless unless you can come up with some logical storyline evidence why LoZ/AoL would be before the other games. It doesn't make any sense. The Triforce, when created, was created within the Sacred Realm. It wasn't first removed until OoT. But in LoZ/AoL the Triforce is and has been in Hyrule for some time.

[Zythe]

Which just backs up my point that 'technology' is by no means a good way of judging where a game lies in the timeline.

Yes. That's why I never defended technology in Zelda, and from the post where I said "they sound more mystical" or whatever, I meant that you should stick to plot and geography since a lot of the tech is just humour.

[SOAP]

[img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of the games seem to have the same level of technology anyways. Yeah, In LoZ they live in caves, but AoL they live in regular houses and and the two games aren't that many years apart.

TWW also proves that the past was actually more advanced than the present anyways.

[Zythe]

1. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of the games seem to have the same level of technology anyways. Yeah, In LoZ they live in caves, but AoL they live in regular houses and and the two games aren't that many years apart.

2. TWW also proves that the past was actually more advanced than the present anyways.

1. Also, they were different countries at different stages and development, but you're right about every game being about the same. Some Zelda has clocks. Hell - OoX has SPACESHIPS - which are glorified broomsticks.

2. Yes, that shows that you can't base a place in the timeline off development in terms of inventions, more in terms of geography, storyline and standard of living.

[Fyxe]

Standard of living? How are we meant to judge the standard of living?

And I still think geography is moot...

[Zythe]

People's houses.

Stoves, baths and beds as opposed to rocks and more rocks.

[MikePetersSucks]

Stoves, baths and beds as opposed to rocks and more rocks.

which kinda ties into the moot technology idea....

[Zythe]

Yes, generally, except it's not like comparing clocks in MM to robotic mice in Oracles and asking which one came first in real life. Or would come first. It's more like: living in caves vs. living in houses, which is more ... big.

[Fyxe]

People's houses.

Stoves, baths and beds as opposed to rocks and more rocks.

64-bit power as opposed to 8-bit limitations.

Honestly, just because beds and kitchens and whatever aren't depicted in games like AoL doesn't mean they don't exist. They're TOWNS. I mean, in Majora's Mask there is only ever shown to be one toilet in the whole of Termina, and it has something living in it. But presumably there's more than one bathroom *really*. You just never see any of them. No point.

As for living in caves, that was in LoZ which as many of us know was just a small section of the larger world of Hyrule. In AoL we see the true scale of Hyrule.

[Zythe]

Yes, I understand that in the case of AoL it's done graphically. But LoZ was also 8 bit, so the caves can be taken in the same way as houses. Yes, you're right, LoZ Hyrule isn't the real developed Hyrule we know in LttP at all. IMO, LoZ Hyrule is the Great Sea Islands joined up over Ancient Hyrule.

[Showsni]

So are we all agreed that the level of technological sophistication doesn't necessarily indicate whereabouts a game comes in the overall chronology? Yes?

Wow - a timeline point everyone can agree on!

[Fyxe]

I swear a lot of people disagree with stuff just to be contradictory. Rather a pain, that.

[Showsni]

I swear a lot of people disagree with stuff just to be contradictory. Rather a pain, that.

No they don't! You're completely wrong.

Sorry...

[SOAP]

I'm inclined to disagree with everyone in this thread on grounds that I can.

[Doopliss]

Regarding LoZ, apart from the fact of the NES's limitations, Hyrule was passing through a seriously crisis and it had already suffered many disasters that can explain the technological undevelopment. For example, many countries are able to built spaceships that can go to Mars, but there are countries that live in extreme poverty in which most of the people don't know how to read.

[Zythe]

And Ganon had just seiged, hadn't he?

[MikePetersSucks]

*slaps on his second SPAM sticker for today o.o*

[SOAP]

*slaps on his second SPAM sticker for today o.o*

I don't see any SPAM here... other than your own post.

I'm hereby revoking your SPAM policing rights. Turn in your badge and SPAM sticker book. You're outta here MPS.