135 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Don't forget all those religions around before Christianity was even thought up.

[Reflectionist]

Well, arm, what I meant by that is that when other religions are asked (sorry to use personification) about Jesus, they simply claim he was a good moral teacher.

Chik, how does that deal with the resurrection? Christianity itself is a Trinitarian religion. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Three in One, who is, was, and is to come.

Ah, yes, and Fyxe, the Old Testament is also the Jewish Bible.

[Alakhriveion]

Well, arm, what I meant by that is that when other religions are asked (sorry to use personification) about Jesus, they simply claim he was a good moral teacher.

In Islam, he was a great prophet. There are Hindus who claim he was an avatar. Buddhists generally think he was enlightened.

[Korhend]

Jesus, they simply claim he was a good moral teacher.

Where in "The Anelects" or "Tao Teh Ching" or any other scripture of a major non-judeo-christian religion does it say Jesus was a good moral teacher? Heck I can think of a number of times The Anelects directly contradicts jesus.

[Alakhriveion]

I think the moral here is that broad, sweeping generalizations about vaguely defined systems should be against the rules.

[Chikara Nadir]

Chik, how does that deal with the resurrection? Christianity itself is a Trinitarian religion. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Three in One, who is, was, and is to come.

What does the Resurrection have anything to do with it? I'd like to think God could resurrect anyone he darn well felt like, regardless of whether they were his son or not. After all, the common belief in at least Christianity is that all good people will be resurrected at the end of the world, not just one man.

Aside from that, I'm perfectly willing to accept the "Holy Spirit" as one form (well, okay- it takes different forms in the NT) in which God moves, but I'm ~not~ going to think of the Holy Spirit as its own entity. To do so would mean to me praising another existance as an equal to the Father himself.

[Reflectionist]

My point was, nobody seems to think he was the messiah, just a good guy.

but, generalizations are generally wrong. ;-) so no more of those.. if i can help it

[Korhend]

My point was, nobody seems to think he was the messiah, just a good guy.

when did 1.9 billion people become "nobody"

[Reflectionist]

I meant nobody besides Christians.

You know that.

[SOAP]

We're not mind readers, Re.

[Nevermind]

Nonetheless, it is common sense.

[arunma]

In Islam, he was a great prophet. There are Hindus who claim he was an avatar. Buddhists generally think he was enlightened.

I don't know...there are a lot of Hindus who hate him. You may be interested to know that Hinduism isn't really the peaceful, tolerant religion that it is portrayed as on TV.

What does the Resurrection have anything to do with it? I'd like to think God could resurrect anyone he darn well felt like, regardless of whether they were his son or not. After all, the common belief in at least Christianity is that all good people will be resurrected at the end of the world, not just one man.

Actually Chik, the Bible says that everyone will be resurrected, both good and bad. Those who are in Christ will be given a reward, and those who are not in Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Anyway, yes it's true that God can resurrect whomever he likes. That said, we know that God doesn't listen to sinners. The point of the Resurrection of Christ is that it signifies the truth of his testimony. The Resurrection is the proof that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Messiah.

My point was, nobody seems to think he was the messiah, just a good guy.

C.S. Lewis made the same observation quite a few decades ago. And as he said, it's better to reject him outright than to accept him as anything but the Messiah and the Son of God.

[Fyxe]

...Why? No, seriously, why can't we think he was just a good man who did good things and influenced many many people in a positive way?

[Nevermind]

Well, if you accept as anything but, you're not Christian, but if you're not Christian, I don't see a problem with accepting him as a morally right man who did his best to assist others. If nothing else, it sets up a moral basis for them.

[Alakhriveion]

[quote name='arunma]I don't know...there are a lot of Hindus who hate him. You may be interested to know that Hinduism isn't really the peaceful' date=' tolerant religion that it is portrayed as on TV.[quote'] Hare Krishnas have made me aware of that. But there ARE Hindus who believe this.
[quote]C.S. Lewis made the same observation quite a few decades ago. And as he said, it's better to reject him outright than to accept him as anything but the Messiah and the Son of God.[/quote] Depends on your source.

[Reflectionist]

We're not mind readers, Re.

Nonetheless, it is common sense.

:-)

What does the Resurrection have anything to do with it? I'd like to think God could resurrect anyone he darn well felt like, regardless of whether they were his son or not. After all, the common belief in at least Christianity is that all good people will be resurrected at the end of the world, not just one man.

Actually Chik, the Bible says that everyone will be resurrected, both good and bad. Those who are in Christ will be given a reward, and those who are not in Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Anyway, yes it's true that God can resurrect whomever he likes. That said, we know that God doesn't listen to sinners. The point of the Resurrection of Christ is that it signifies the truth of his testimony. The Resurrection is the proof that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Messiah.

also, Chik, Jesus knew when he was going to die and be resurrected. Humans can't possibly know.

1 John 2:22 - Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist -- he denies the Father and the Son.

[arunma]

...Why? No, seriously, why can't we think he was just a good man who did good things and influenced many many people in a positive way?

Because such a belief drains the Gospel of its uniqueness and message. The Gospel message wasn't "you must love your neighbor as yourself." Moses said that 1400 years before Jesus. The message of the Gospel is that you are guilty of not loving your neighbor as yourself, but that you can be forgiven.

Hare Krishnas have made me aware of that. But there ARE Hindus who believe this.

Then you seem to be more fortunate in your friendships with Hindus. I know very few Hindus who don't hate Jesus. And the few that like him think that he's a yogi, and that he worshiped Krishna. I don't know which is worse.

By the way, Hare Krishnas are the Jehovah's Witnesses of Hinduism (or to translate for you, sort of a cross between Chabad Lubavich and Messianic Jews).

[Reflectionist]

What exactly is Hare Krishna?

[arunma]

What exactly is Hare Krishna?

They're a group of Hindus who actively seek converts. They also believe that Krishna is the supreme god (instead of Vishnu, as most Hindus believe). Finally, they've got a few other oddities, such as a stronger emphasis on vegetarianism.

[arunma]

All right, if Christians are all in one community, explain to me the scenario of radicals saying that if you don't belong to a certain denomination, then you're wrong, and you're doomed to suffer eternal damnation in the firey pits of hell?

Most denominations which claim "we're the only true church" are usually deemed heretics (except for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, which due to their old age may have a point). The way my college Sunday school pastor puts it, our Baptist church has doctrinal distinctives. We don't claim that everyone must believe as we do, but we nonetheless believe in our doctrines.

Ultimately, most churches embrace Saint Paul's simple paraphrase of the Gospel: if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9). Freewill/Predestination, supersessionism, soteriology, eschatology, and all those other things are just commentary. I think you're overexaggerating denominational differences.

[arunma]

(that's just some food for thought).

Well, it says in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Saint Paul also says "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19). And Saint James says, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works." (St. James 2:22). In other words, the idea is that if you confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will do good works.

Actually, I'm not, because that's all I've ever heard from other religious leaders in my area. I'm LDS, so I'm going to hell, because my leaders supposedly taught me wrong, etc. However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only place that I have ever heard (actually heard, not read on the internet) that says something like the 11th Article of Faith.

Are you going to hell for believing in a "different Jesus?" Maybe, maybe not. I don't really know. What I do know is that your position is more desirable than that of, say, a Hindu or an atheist, who doesn't confess Christ as Lord in any form.

[Nevermind]

However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only place that I have ever heard (actually heard, not read on the internet) that says something like the 11th Article of Faith.

I hope that sentence is excluding the Non-denominational denomination...

[Korhend]

I'd Recomend Ecumenis Redintegratio, its got a similar message on religious tolerance. Specifically on ecumenicalism, but really a work asking for Christians to put aside their difference.

[Reflectionist]

I'm LDS, so I'm going to hell,

>.>

<.<

[Nevermind]

"LDS" holds more value than "hypocritical" in my eyes.

[Reflectionist]

Can I ask you politely what that is supposed to mean? Or do you wish to throw insults some more, while I sit and calmly type?

[Fyxe]

And what you typed wasn't intended as an insult at all, surely?

[Alakhriveion]

Cool your jowls, everyone.