135 replies to this topic

[Oberon Storm]

fact, I'd go as far as to say atheism can sometimes be a religion. There are atheists out there who seem to to treat it as such... Oh yes, I went there.

Except that no it isn't.

[Reflectionist]

Religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

so, by definition, atheism and buddhism are not religions.

[Chikara Nadir]

religion n.

1.
___a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
___b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

(From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)


However...Reflectionist, are you sure you were speaking correctly to say that Athiesm and BUDDHISM are not religions? It can be argued that Athiesm is not, because it has no ties to either supernatural practice, spiritual teachings, or steady devotion, but Buddhism most certainly does. Buddhism follows the teachings of Buddha just as Christianity follows the teachings of Jesus, and to deny it as a religion might very well upset 376 million followers in the world.

[Reflectionist]

no. Christians follow Jesus as a God. Buddhists don't believe that about Buddha. The idea behind Buddhism is that in order to attain the Enlightenment, or, to be happy, or something, just to not cease to exist after death, you have to train yourself to get rid of Wanting. That has nothing in itself to do with God, or a god for that matter.

Buddha wrote something like the 8-Fold path.... I'm not entirely sure what it was, because in History all I did was sit in the back and sleep.

Christians hail Jesus as the Christ, the annointed one, the messiah, the savior. Buddhism has nothing to do or even close to how Christianity is practiced or its basic principles.

[Selena]

Just because it isn't similiar to Christianity doesn't mean that Buddhism isn't a religion. Buddhism has spiritual ties just like any other religion, including theories on what happens when you pass on, and what happens after you reach Nirvana. It's a religion. You don't have to have a defined 'god' in a religion.


Besides, if you slept through your class explaining it, it's probably not a good idea to jump to conclusions.

[Chikara Nadir]

Buddhists follow the TEACHINGS of Buddha just as Christians follow the teachings of Jesus...and frankly, even as a Christian I don't consider the Jesus who walked on earth to be God, I consider him to be a branch, a child of God who may have rejoined the father and perhaps become one with him again in Heaven. We too, as humans, were based off of God, according to Genesis. But I don't try to complicate things by trying to figure out what Jesus was- as far as I'm concerned, he was at least an important prophet who cared very much about protecting and helping mankind.

Buddhism, because it follows the teachings of an important historic leader who supposedly came from his own rather divine/supernatural sounding birth and life, and because it is devoted to the cause of attaining enlightenment, IS a religion by definition. Additionally, although Buddhism does not worship divine entities, neither does it deny that there are supernatural elements/beings important to the world, and some Buddhist schools include rituals pertaining to the supernatural.

[SOAP]

Athiesm can sometimes fall under number 4 on that list, more specifically an organized group of athiest with an agenda.

[Fyxe]

The Diety of Jesus

Okay, this one isn't Archeological, but one more thing to consider. Jesus always claimed he was the Messiah, the Son of God, the Son of Man. The Savior. And, every other religion believes him to be at the very least, a Good Moral Teacher, and a Prophet of God. Mohammad even said this himself, in the beginnings of Islam, which began shortly before Jesus' Crucifixion.  

But, If Jesus wasn't God, that would make him a liar. I don't know any one who could possibly believe someone could be a liar, and big lies at that, and still be a good moral teacher. He'd have to be crazy, or some sort of Hell demon. But if that's true, even Islam is wrong in it's beliefs. Either Jesus is the Son of God, who he said he was, or Jesus was a liar, which makes a liar out of every single other religion in the world.  

Is that the message you'd like to convey to about 90% of the inhabitants of the earth, who believe in any religion whatsoever? Well, maybe not the Buddhists, that's not even a religion, really... :-( Seeing as how they don't revolve around a God.

Firstly, if Jesus was just a mortal man he'd be some kind of Hellspawn? Holy crap. Taking a big leap there.

If Jesus wasn't the son of God, that wouldn't make him a liar. That would make him incorrect, but that would not make him a liar. I do not believe in Christianity but I do not call them liars if they say simple things like 'God exists'. I just believe they are wrong.

So I believe Jesus was a good man, worthy of his teachings and possibly genuinely believed he was the son of God.

Everyone's 'crazy'. I could call you crazy for worshiping that which you cannot see. Plenty of people who are clinically 'crazy' do that.

Oh, and the idea that a relgion needs the concept of 'God' is rediculous and incredibly short-sighted. If you're interested in the theology then please drop the preacher act.

[Korhend]

Aetheism is a religion, a lack of religion is agnotism. Agnotism is not taking a stance on anything. Aethiesm is a diffinitive belief in the nature of god.

[SOAP]

Fyxe, that may be going a step too far. Believing in a god is in no way pathological.

[Korhend]

Everyone's 'crazy'. I could call you crazy for worshiping that which you cannot see. Plenty of people who are clinically 'crazy' do that.

Association falacy. Lots of crazy people like cookies, I could call you crazy for liking cookies.

[arunma]

Aetheism is a religion, a lack of religion is agnotism. Agnotism is not taking a stance on anything. Aethiesm is a diffinitive belief in the nature of god.

What Korhend said.

[Oberon Storm]

Athiesm can sometimes fall under number 4 on that list, more specifically an organized group of athiest with an agenda.

Point me out a group of Atheists with an agenda. Specifically an Atheistic agenda. All those Atheist hurches are nothing more than self glorified community BBQ's. Even more so when they actually BBQ something.

Aetheism is a religion, a lack of religion is agnotism. Agnotism is not taking a stance on anything. Aethiesm is a diffinitive belief in the nature of god.

Religion is more than just a definitive belief in the nature of a god or gods. Religions have worship, practices, and a cause. Atheists worship nothing, have no practices, and no cause. They just live life day to day and don't worry about any afterlife, next life or end times other than maybe global warming.

[Korhend]

Point me out a group of Atheists with an agenda.

Iosef Vissarionovich

Religion is more than just a definitive belief in the nature of a god or gods. Religions have worship, practices, and a cause.

so deism isn't a religion now?

[SOAP]

Point me out a group of Atheists with an agenda. Specifically an Atheistic agenda. All those Atheist hurches are nothing more than self glorified community BBQ's. Even more so when they actually BBQ something.

Religion is more than just a definitive belief in the nature of a god or gods. Religions have worship, practices, and a cause. Atheists worship nothing, have no practices, and no cause. They just live life day to day and don't worry about any afterlife, next life or end times other than maybe global warming.

I've seen atheists pass getting together, passing out fliers and books about how "the Bible is full of lies" and "Why you shouldn't be Chrisian." I don't see how thta's different than Christians getting toogether to pass out pamphlets on "How to Recieve God's Love" and miniature bibles. I've also seen online website communities for Freethinkers where believing in a god was not allowed. Which to me, defeats the whole purpose.

As for your second point, hat depends on what you call a god. A god can be anthropomorphic being, an animal, a spirit or some form of higher lifeform we have yet to understand. It can also be other people, a movie, a show, or hell, your own shoe! It can also be something as simple as an idea, such as "There is definately not a god" which it entirely ironic. Anything that's put on a shiny pedestal and is believed in strongly is a god.

[Reflectionist]

There is a very fine line between being wrong and being a liar. If there is one at all, that is. I could tell you the trees are blue and the sky is green, now am I a liar, or am I just wrong?

Jesus said he was the Messiah. Before the Sanhedrin, when asked if he was the Christ, he replied "I am" which in itself has some meaning to it I can't recall, perhaps arunma could point it out. [Mark 14:61-62, I believe]

Also, if you don't believe Jesus was the Savior, the Christ, which, I guess some of you don't, that's fine. That would mean that it's possible that Jesus never existed to begin with, right?

Even though his birth, life, death and resurrection were foretold by Jewish Prophets.

and Chik - If Jesus wasn't God, what is the point of him dying for us?

[SOAP]

That's easy. He knew things had to change and the only way to he could to that was to die for us.

[Reflectionist]

How would he know?

In Luke, he knows as a twelve year old.

But, I see your point, let me rephrase my question. If Jesus wasn't God, how does him dying help us?

The Crucifixion would have no power in it whatsoever.

Nothing Jesus said would hold water, which would make him a liar. Which would make him severely morally flawed.

Which pushes nearly every religion firmly into a lie.

That's all there is to it. Either Jesus was God, or Religion itself is flawed.

[SOAP]

Religion itself is flawed.

You said it, not me.

EDIT: Okay, that was totally out of context. I'll be fair now and answer your question. If Jesus were just a man, it would not mean that his crucifiction hold no power. Jesus's self-sacrifice would still be very much profound. He had plenty enough oppurtunity to run and hide as he seemed to already know what was coming. He also could have been let off the hook if he had just denied he was God. But the fact that he stayed and allowed himself to be killed shows he believed firmly in what he believed. If Jesus were just a man, that wouldn't make Christianity a lie. It would just mean you have a very strong founder. He doesn't need to be a god to be a hero. To me, Jesus is to Christians what Robert Opal and the gays of Stone Wall were to gays.

As for Jesus being just 12 and all, I don't think it really matters much how old he was when he first realized he needed to change the world. I was 12 myself when I first realized that things at my church weren't right. I believed everything I was told up until they started preaching how Mormons, Muslims, and Wiccans were tools of satan. That's when I saw what kind of garbage I was fed all these years. I stood up in the middle of the service and said "That's wrong!"

[Korhend]

When did christianity become "Nearly every religion"?

[Reflectionist]

It didn't.

Nearly every other relgion believes Jesus is a good Moral Teacher. If He wasn't, and a small part of their religion is wrong, what's to say that the rest of it is wrong too?

MJ - You apparently don't know what I mean. I didn't say that everyone but Christians are tools of Satan, that's exactly what I'm not saying. But, Jesus has to be God. Christianity (which expands even to Mormons on some level, Lutherans, etc.) would crumble if it were believed that He wasn't.

Jesus has been around since Creation, as well as the holy spirit. Christianity is a Trinitarian Religion. Islam calls it "The Shirk" which to them is an unforgivable sin. They strictly deny the diety of Christ.

Genesis 1:26 says "Then God said, Let us make man in our image...." and you can see the point

for now i have to go i will edit this later.

[Korhend]

Nearly every other relgion believes Jesus is a good Moral Teacher. If He wasn't, and a small part of their religion is wrong, what's to say that the rest of it is wrong too?

Ad hominim falacy. Pointing out one thing is false doesn't make anything else more false.

[Fyxe]

There is a very fine line between being wrong and being a liar. If there is one at all, that is. I could tell you the trees are blue and the sky is green, now am I a liar, or am I just wrong?

If you knew that trees weren't blue and the sky wasn't green, then you would be a liar.

If you *knew* you had no idea but said they were those colours anyway, you'd be a liar in essence, even if you got it correct.

If you genuinely believed they were those colours, then you'd just be wrong.

[SOAP]

MJ - You apparently don't know what I mean. I didn't say that everyone but Christians are tools of Satan, that's exactly what I'm not saying.

What the frak are you talking about? I didn't say you said those things. I said my church did! Jeez! Pay atttention.

[Reflectionist]

I know what you said, MJ. I meant that in the context of "not all Christians hate other religions, so you shouldn't have broken away on the account of one denomination."

I just hope that it wasn't a baptist church. Still, even that kind of stuff isn't a good thing to say. I'm not going to preach (if you'll allow the word) hatred in any way, shape, or form. True Christians know better.

Okay, Fyxe, I understand where you're coming from. But after reviewing other religions anyway, and studying them, I still stick with Christianity. And look at my screen name. Would I still stick with Christianity after even I've challenged it with everything I've been told from people I've shared my faith with?

I'm not ashamed to say I've questioned what I believe in. But to not do that, and just accept it as you hear it, is not a good thing when it comes down to it. If you really study, and understand what it is you believe, you stand up to attacks much better, and don't hide your faith, like most of the kids in my school.

Korhend, I didn't say everything else was more false. I asked if one thing is false, how do you know other aspects of it aren't false? Like in Christianity, if I can find a so called "contradiction" and believe that it is 100% contradiction, and that something HAS to be wrong... it'll tear your faith apart, you'll think like that. But I don't believe in contradiction, I believe that it all has to do with the way the scripture is interpreted.

For example, in the Bible, it says "In your anger, do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry." and it also says in a different book, "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to judge, and slow to become angry."

Now, it would appear that one writer says don't be angry at all, and the other one says it doesn't matter if you're angry, as long as you don't sin.

What this means, is that it's okay to be angry, if it's justified. The other verses around that one indicate and talk about justifiable anger. If your angry for the right reasons. The other passage indicates that you shouldn't become angry if it is over something trivial, be slow to become angry.

Sorry, i got a little off topic....

[SOAP]

...

It was a Baptist church.

The preacher was cool. It's just the Youth leader that was nuts.

[Reflectionist]

Well, I'm truly sorry.

[SOAP]

Well, at least I didn't go mad and turn into a raving atheist... like my stepdad.

[Chikara Nadir]

and Chik - If Jesus wasn't God, what is the point of him dying for us?

Oooh, I get to bring up my pastor's sermons again.

Rather than just being a symbol of God himself dying for us, Christ COULD have died for us as the son of God in the same exact way that God nearly forced Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Whatever the case, it was undoubtably (at least according to Christian doctrine) a symbol of a father willing to give up the one earthly creation he cared for most: he had put all of his faith into the hopes that Jesus' death would make an extreme difference.

And even if Jesus was not the true son of God, that doesn't mean his death was completely meaningless. There have been many men and women who have died as martyrs to their faith. Whatever he was, he certainly believed that his death was important and that God would protect him- in this life or the next. I believe that there must be a supreme diety of some fashion that we worship, and I believe that Jesus existed and died for a cause. I have too much respect for other religions to assume that they are utterly wrong and will burn in a supposed Hell for saying Jesus was a respectable prophet, but little else. (besides which, Hell only was thought of after several hundred years A.D.)

[Armeggadon]

in the bible jesus is referred to as the son of god. it doens't say that he specifically is god

Which pushes nearly every religion firmly into a lie

do you have any idea how many religions have absolutly nothing to do with jesus. saying that jesus being morally flawed pushes almost every religion to the brink of being all liars makes no sense considering how many religiongs there actually are in the world. buddhism doesn't deal with jesus, taoism doens't deal with jesus, satanism doesn't deal with jesus, as a matter of fact most religions don't deal with jesus.... just some higher power that nobody knows about. christianity and it's numerous seperate denominations it probably the most followed religiong but by no means is it the majority of religions