346 replies to this topic

[MK.]

Selena, very few enemies are "pure evil" like you said. But, evil does exist, I can promise you that.

Back to topic, just because I said that "warcrimes happen all the time and always have" never meant I said "it was ok."

It's just a FACT that we need to ACCEPT.

Terrible things happen in war, whether they are legal or not, FACT.

The US Government (and all governments for that matter) has/have lied to its/their people for years, FACT!

The deal is, what I'm saying IS true, BUT, you just let it go because that's the way it is...

No amount of whining, arguing, and complaining will change the facts I just stated... just accept them and move on.

[Korhend]

Right right, and Racial Massacres happen its a FACT. Just accept them and move on. Correct?

[Dryth]

Back to topic, just because I said that "warcrimes happen all the time and always have" never meant I said "it was ok."

Crystal Ball of Backtracking, reveal to me a relevant past quote!

Oh ok, I get it now. It's ok, cos it happens all the time, right?

YES! Thank you! Finally someone gets it.

So, unless you were being sarcastic, you certainly seemed to be say that it was OK. What is that, oh Crystal Ball of Backtracking?...

Also, as to why it's possible they might hate us: The Pentagon, defending itself from accusations of abuse of the Qu'ran at Guantanamo, said one of the instances refered to a completely accidental wetting of the book which occured while urinating on detainees. This is their DEFENSE, mind you.

So it boils down to that you are defending the people who wish to do harm to us. :cool:

You're right, that does make it sound as if he was condoning the abuse of the Qu'ran. Certainly more than simply saying it happens and we should get over it.

[Nevermind]

Your point?

My point is that it hasn't "always happened" just because WWII may have also had instances.

[Oberon Storm]

It's just a FACT that we need to ACCEPT.

The second we do accept it is the second it becomes OK. So what we need to do is not accept it and punish those we catch.

[Alakhriveion]

No amount of whining, arguing, and complaining will change the facts I just stated... just accept them and move on.

Well, whining, arguing, and complaining helped us out of 'Nam.

[MK.]

But unlike Vietnam we refuse to give up this time. If we give up, well, that would destroy our creditability...

And yes, I know what liberals say in response to that... US ALREADY HAS NO CREDITABLITY (By going to war... etc...)

[Dryth]

But unlike Vietnam we refuse to give up this time.  If we give up, well, that would destroy our creditability...

And yes, I know what liberals say in response to that...  US ALREADY HAS NO CREDITABLITY (By going to war... etc...)

Everyone has some credibility?

You'll find more credibility is lost for being stubborn than for accepting that one has done wrong and working to remedy the consequences. Credibility is dependent on trust, and the stubborn defense of injustice, whether real or perceived, does absolutely horrible things to credibility.

Rather: Stubborn != Credible. Stubborn = Liable.

[Alakhriveion]

But unlike Vietnam we refuse to give up this time. If we give up, well, that would destroy our creditability...

You've got a point there. It's time someone reminded the world that when we say "When this war is over Arabic will only be spoken in hell,*" we MEAN it. That's make people respect us. Sure.

And yes, I know what liberals say in response to that... US ALREADY HAS NO CREDITABLITY (By going to war... etc...)

Can you show otherwise?






*Originally a World War Two quote about Japanese, but doesn't it fit? Sure, there was some mission slip, but what else do you call it?

[MK.]

I watched America Team World Police today for the first time, and I learned something... Those who are against war are quote/unquote pussies and I shouldn't care what they think

[Korhend]

Right right. Because this is also from the people who say
"Jesus died to save Santa Claus"
so I guess we should except that as true also. Oh we should also except that you're banned from contro for a week for flaming as true.

[Ogmios22188]

MK., I think you've failed to realize that Trey Parker and Matt Stone are horribly satirical. Pretty much anything that's said by characters in their works is the opposite of what they think is right. At least when a character says something like that.

[Fyxe]

MK. also totally missed the whole point of the assholes/pussies/dicks thing anyway.

[Dryth]

To quote Gary from Team America, in the relevant speech: "The problem with dicks is: they f*** too much or f*** when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that."

And once someone's in jail without trial on tenuous suspicion of terrorism, and being tortured in the process, they've been f***ed too much and f***ed when it isn't appropriate.

Correction on Matt/Trey logic: They always try to end on a handful of serious moral points, often as the punchline. Sincerity is relative to time.

[Dryth]

And the only way to do that is destroy their economy. I'm sorry to say this, but we need to obliterate the Sunni Triangle.

Surely this will have no impact on a multitude of innocence, who will no doubt be better prepared for worst-case scenarios than the massive organizations accustomed to compensating for extreme economic instability?

And are they being punished? No, of course not. But our soldiers are being punished? It's not only unfair, but not right morally.

It's called a double standard. The sort of unavoidable one that comes from two nations having two distinct sets of laws.

Part of the justification in invading Iraq has become reforming their society at all levels. In this process, there's assumed superiority across the board, whether military, intellectual, moral, and whatnot. Intellectual and moral superiority are brought into serious doubt with the abuse of the Koran. Further, it's used in the context of intentional torture. To recover their image of superiority, a clear message needs to be sent that such actions won't be condoned.

I assume you're referring to the Saudis when you refer to abuse of the Bible. In their case, they aren't invading other countries with the hubris of universal reform for the better, and their destruction of the Bible is in line with the long-standing stipulations of their legal system. They also aren't representative of all Muslims, let alone, say, Iraq (compared to US soldiers, who do represent their country).

Neither is right. Neither is justified, and neither would happen in a perfect world. In this flawed world, however, the bar for America as self-decided "Good Guys" is invariably going to be higher.

But I'm not saying this is right, it's just a realization of war.

Pissing off more people in the middle east is only going to aggrivate what set off these damn conflicts to begin with. Pissing on the Koran or torching the Bible have nothing to do with this war. They're part of the greater issue of damage control on cultural image on a global scale (not to mention the occasional suggestion of religious war, as something I assume we all want to avoid). The US is not at war with Islam, BS like this does little to hurt those the US is at war with, but stands to offend a huge portion of those they aren't.

Anyways, We need to destroy the terrorists from within. We need to lead a serious offensive that will frighten them.

You've recommended destroying the economy and identified pissing on the Koran as a justifiable act of war. These seem to be the exact opposite of "destroy[ing] the terrorists from within."

What'll destroy them from within is eliminating the terrorist ideology. Painting the US as a universal good might achieve that, but it's tricky, if not impossible. A good first step is putting on the breaks to slow progress in the opposite direction. That means no pissing on the Koran. That means no prison abuses. That means no intentional destruction of their economy. Each such action just lays the seeds of hate, and the longer it goes on, the more culturally ingrained it becomes. I hate to imagine the type of world my children may end up growing up in.

[MK.]

I'll copy and paste an entry from a blog I found whilst surfing...

=============================================
[begin copy/paste]
Torture and Kill All Terrorists!

Terrorists have bombed London and killed 50+ and injured 700+ people. It might not sound as impressive as September 11, but an attack is an attack. If you ask me I'm getting pretty tired of these terrorists.

But, the problem is we keep treating them like human beings if not better. If you ask me, anyone caught in the act of terrorism needs to be tortured and then killed. I'm tired hearing people whine about people in Gitmo getting treated imhumanely... when they are fed well, allowed to have the Koran, and allowed activities. How the living hell are you suppose get information from them, when they live better then 70% of the people in their country of origin?

If I was given full autonomy on how they are to be treated... I would bring each prisoner towards the yard, interrogate them painfully. They refuse to answer a question, I shoot them in a non fatal area part of the body. In the end if they failed their interrogation, we keep shooting them slowly till they die a painful death and then burn them on the spot. To add extra damage have all the prisoners watch these proceedings. That will scare them towards a confession.

If people are against it... Green Peace, Hippies, and those whiners. I say gather them up and send them to Gitmo to spend some time with the prisoners, let them feel the hatred. What perplexes me is why the hell they have the Koran in their cells? They are criminals not bad kids! Treat them like bad kids and they will throw tantrums whenever they get the chance. But, if the terrorists knows the fate of those who get caught, I assure you they won't be signing up anytime soon.

That's why terrorists never ever were prevalent in Iraq, they knew Saddam Hussein would bring them some god awful pain if they tried anything... which is the only good thing this dictator did.



[end copy/paste]
=============================================
So, what do you guys think? I think this guy might be on to somethin. These terrorists are BAD PEOPLE. If we royally show them that we'll kill those who don't answer or questions it would scare the HELL out of the other terrorists and we'd get info from em.

[Korhend]

You're a stalinist. Good for you.

[Selena]

So in essence, by using Saddam's motives, you become the very monster you're attempting to destroy. Sounds lovely.

[MK.]

No, you've got it backwards. The terrorists are the monsters. By getting TOUGH we DESTROY them!

I mean, you really believe in freedom for terrorists? They want to KILL US! We need to kill and destroy THEM first!

-MK

[Alakhriveion]

No, you've got it backwards.  The terrorists are the monsters.  By getting TOUGH we DESTROY them!

I mean, you really believe in freedom for terrorists?  They want to KILL US!  We need to kill and destroy THEM first!

-MK

That's the same mentality that killed 3,000 Americans on our own soil on September 11. I don't know about you, but I'm AGAINST things like that.

[Reflectionist]

And not to mention that some of the guys in Guantanamo are just random Iraqis brought in.

Personally, I'd very much like to get through the entire thing without anybody getting hurt.

If being caring and humane and actually moral makes me a hippy, then give me a joint and a peace sign on a chain.

You're living better than they are, even in War!!!! Why do you feel so threatened by these people?

Violence is not the answer. If you kill someone you think has information, what good will that do? Wouldn't you rather want to gain their trust and promise them a safe trip home if they tell you what you need to hear?

[Korhend]

But, the problem is we keep treating them like human beings if not better.

I should warn you that according to the President of Genocide Watch, now is a good time to delete you're posts. Just thought that you'd like to know that your half way to mass murder on their list.

If you ask me, anyone caught in the act of terrorism needs to be tortured and then killed.

And how do you suppose to catch someone in the act of blowing themselves up? With a splash gaurd?

How the living hell are you suppose get information from them, when they live better then 70% of the people in their country of origin?

So the moral here is that its okay to abuse poor people. Class warfare my friend, on the Scale of the CCCP.

If I was given full autonomy on how they are to be treated... I would bring each prisoner towards the yard, interrogate them painfully. They refuse to answer a question, I shoot them in a non fatal area part of the body.

Treesus Christ, use a history book. Torture reduces the accuracy of interrogations. Why do you think the NKVD couldn't find shit? But like a philistine, you can only see violence as the possible solution

In the end if they failed their interrogation, we keep shooting them slowly till they die a painful death and then burn them on the spot. To add extra damage have all the prisoners watch these proceedings. That will scare them towards a confession.

Yep, as the NKVD taught us, a confession renders evidence obsolete.

If people are against it... Green Peace, Hippies, and those whiners. I say gather them up and send them to Gitmo to spend some time with the prisoners, let them feel the hatred.

Nice, you want a system of camps for those who oppose you. Do you kiss Stalin's portrait before bed?

But, if the terrorists knows the fate of those who get caught, I assure you they won't be signing up anytime soon.

Again, use a freaking history book. Brutality not once in all of history, has aided an army. Instead it worked against them, it worked against Khan, it worked against the British, it worked against Hitler, it worked against Tojo, it worked against Osama, and now you're willing to take the same oh so successful military route.

That's why terrorists never ever were prevalent in Iraq, they knew Saddam Hussein would bring them some god awful pain if they tried anything

Funny, saddam liked Josef Stalin too...

If we royally show them that we'll kill those who don't answer or questions it would scare the HELL out of the other terrorists and we'd get info from em.

As stated wrong info. Its common fucking sense, a man will say anything if the alternative is death. And thats when we start sending milk maids to death for trying to establish a Greater Lithuania on American Soil.

[Dryth]

I mean, you really believe in freedom for terrorists? They want to KILL US! We need to kill and destroy THEM first!

Seems to capture the stance.

Nobody believes in freedom for terrorists. Apart from, perhaps, terrorists. But then, there are many terrorist groups, and they tend not to get along amongst themselves.

Terrorists can't kill from jail. Terrorists won't kill if they aren't provoked. The brutal treatment of terrorists risks affecting those with weak minds (i.e. most of the world's population) toward viewing the US as a horrible country that endorses torture as the standard, rather than exception.

I've said it before in various forms, and I'll say it again: If the US wants to stop mideastern terrorists, the best approach is to probably stop pissing off the middle-east. Since we don't need to torture terrorists, there's zilch gain, and any risk involved,however miniscule, could push that one person over the edge that'll strap a bomb to themselves and hop on a crowded bus.

If it helps, Sun Tzu covered this... what?... 2000 years ago? Realizing that defeating an enemy through brute force and cruelty would only go so far, the Sheathed Sword is typically ideal. And of all nations in the history of the world, the US is in the best position to investigate its principles.

[Korhend]

Then what Mac, are you exactly going to do about that?

[Korhend]

If we don't destroy most of the terrorists, then they will destroy us. AND I AIN'T GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN!

Seems you're last sentence denoted an intention of action, specifically what is it, beyond playing keyboard commando?