346 replies to this topic

[MK.]

Also, as to why it's possible they might hate us:  The Pentagon, defending itself from accusations of abuse of the Qu'ran at Guantanamo, said one of the instances refered to a completely accidental wetting of the book which occured while urinating on detainees.  This is their DEFENSE, mind you.

So it boils down to that you are defending the people who wish to do harm to us. :cool:

[Alakhriveion]

No... are you just not reading my posts or something?

[Ogmios22188]

Because they were being pissed on? Wow, this Administration's logic and defense just get worse and worse. About the whole evil people hating peace thing, that really doesn't seem to be the case. Evil world leaders have wanted peace, but they've wanted the world to be in their vision. They didn't want constant war all the time, because that threatens their position of power. Think of Darth Vader. He was obsessed with peace and order, and felt that the Empire was a symbol of these things, as opposed to the Rebellion which disrupted that order. Would you not say that Darth Vader was evil? Being opposed to peace doesn't necessarily make one evil; rather, the methods by which one achieves peace do that.

[Korhend]

So it boils down to that you are defending the people who wish to do harm to us.  :cool:

Yeah as a matter of fact, its a good Idea to stick you're head up from a fight every once in a while to figure out what you're exactly fighting for. It can save a whole fuss sometimes.

[Dryth]

So it boils down to that you are defending the people who wish to do harm to us.  :cool:

Enter the vicious cycle: You want to do harm to people that want to do harm to you. People want to do harm to you because you do harm to them. Throw in practical considerations such as collateral damage (i.e. more harm to more people; you'll be the one blamed as the foreign force).

Or I could be less tactful and point out that what's apparently occured in at least a handful of instances is the equivalent of soldiers masturbating on the cross before a orthodox Christian. That's just bloody stupid, especially considering how many of these men have either never been formally convicted, or have even been subsequently set free as having been wrongfully arrested.

[Nevermind]

Darth Vader, along with MGS' Saladin, only appear to be evil because of the society that we are in. We are brought up believing that anything other than a democracy is evil, but then we are also brought up being taught that 'too many cooks spoil the broth', which means that everyone can't do everything together. I for one believe that these two characters had a good idea for peace; take control and create peace out of the chaos. With too many minds working the order of things, there is chaos. Something which they are trying NOT to create.

As for Saddam killing the Kurds or Shiites or whatever, well that's not exactly terrorism, it's a religious dispute. And suicide bombers do it for the same reason. If they die for their beliefs, they are given a heap of virgins in heaven forever or something like that. Alak, you seem to know that stuff, you might be able to clarify it.

[Oberon Storm]

As for Saddam killing the Kurds or Shiites or whatever, well that's not exactly terrorism, it's a religious dispute. And suicide bombers do it for the same reason. If they die for their beliefs, they are given a heap of virgins in heaven forever or something like that. Alak, you seem to know that stuff, you might be able to clarify it.

They were Kurds. And Saddam was very secular. Religion had nothing to with it. Also, suicide bombers are motivated by a little more than virgins in heaven.

[MK.]

Realize that this is war. Stuff like this (prisoner abuse, etc...) has ALWAYS happened. We just used to do a better job of keeping that information secret. I.E. WE DIDN'T TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF IT!

-MK

[Korhend]

We used to send human skulls home in the mail to show friends. Its just now people are learning to accept that its wrong.

[Nevermind]

Oh ok, I get it now. It's ok, cos it happens all the time, right?

[MK.]

Oh ok, I get it now. It's ok, cos it happens all the time, right?

YES! Thank you! Finally someone gets it.

[Korhend]

2 billion burglaries occur yearly, so I guess I'm going to steal my neighbors TV.

[Nevermind]

Oh yeah I definately get it. I think it's disgusting though. These people are fighting for humanity, then acting in the exact opposite way of what humanity should be.

And to be honest, that kinda shit would make me kill them on site without remorse, and I'd kill anyone who let them get away with it just because "it happens all the time".

Just because it happens, doesn't mean it's right, and if you're ok with that idea, then you're as inhumane as they are. Pathetic.

[Oberon Storm]

While there are definitly some things in war that are unavoidable and therefore arguably acceptable, abuse of POW's is not one of them. Just because it happens all the time doesn't make it right. It makes it that much worse.

[Dryth]

Realize that this is war. Stuff like this (prisoner abuse, etc...) has ALWAYS happened. We just used to do a better job of keeping that information secret. I.E. WE DIDN'T TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF IT!

I'll remember that if I ever run into you on the street. I mean, if shit happens, but is okay so long as it isn't photographed. I mean, you haven't done anything wrong, but this is war, so who cares what I urinate on or shove a pole up, right?

Prisoner abuse happens, but any responsible nation punishes those that perpetrate it. There's no excuse for picking innocent people off the street, jailing them for extended periods of time without establishing probable cause or bringing them to fair trial, and subjecting them to both mental and physical torture. That's absolutely barbaric. And the likes of pissing on the Koran is about the stupidest thing an individual can do under the service of a country preaching peace with the middle-east.

[Alakhriveion]

Realize that this is war. Stuff like this (prisoner abuse, etc...) has ALWAYS happened. We just used to do a better job of keeping that information secret. I.E. WE DIDN'T TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF IT!

-MK

Oh yes we did. There's a reason we had some problems with Viet Nam. Shooting small children in the back? Hell, even if you only do it once, you've done messed everything up. Burning villages? Now we have a problem. You know whose fault it is, though- those damn reporters.

And by the way, no, it HASN'T always been done.

[Nevermind]

Yeah my uncle is a bit messed up from that. He had a kid pointing a gun at him and it was kill or die.

[MK.]

Oh yes we did.  There's a reason we had some problems with Viet Nam.  Shooting small children in the back?  Hell, even if you only do it once, you've done messed everything up.  Burning villages?  Now we have a problem.  You know whose fault it is, though- those damn reporters.

And by the way, no, it HASN'T always been done.

You have to understand though, lots of those children had guns and were often shooting at US troops. So, as sad as it was, all of those children were potentially out to kill us.

It shouldn't have been that way, but we weren't at fault, it was the people of that country. We uphold not arming "children under the age of 13"

And as for "hasn't always been done..." do you honestly believe we did NOT capture and torture high ranking Nazis during WWII to gather information?

[Korhend]

And as for "hasn't always been done..." do you honestly believe we did NOT capture and torture high ranking Nazis during WWII to gather information?

Actually no, we kept them in Lousiana where the troops served them better food then they themselves recieved, could buy chocolates for their wives and write letters to Germany. There was even a soccer team!

[Alakhriveion]

You have to understand though, lots of those children had guns and were often shooting at US troops. So, as sad as it was, all of those children were potentially out to kill us.

What planet are you from? We're talking Mi Lai, dude!

[Korhend]

Apparently the Viet Kong were not only experts in guerrilla combat, but also amazing child psychologists. They were able to teach children as young as 1 year old to fire a rifle that weighs more then them, at the age we're trying to teach our children to talk.

http://www.wademan.com/VisionQuest/Gallery/Vietnam/My%20Lai%2041%20Museum%20List%20Of%20Those%20Killed%20-%20Edited.jpgp

[Nevermind]

Yeah, that and WWII isn't 'every other war'...

[Goose]

Yeah, stupid children for defending themselves.

[Alakhriveion]

Yeah, that and WWII isn't 'every other war'...

Your point?

[MK.]

Yeah, stupid children for defending themselves.

If NO children ever shot at the US Troops, we wouldn't be shooting at the children ourselves out of fear they MIGHT shoot US.

So, it's not fair to say they were defending themselves... we never attack children purposely unless they fire bullets at us first.

[Alakhriveion]

If NO children ever shot at the US Troops, we wouldn't be shooting at the children ourselves out of fear they MIGHT shoot US.

So, it's not fair to say they were defending themselves... we never attack children purposely unless they fire bullets at us first.

Yeah... yeah we would. In fact, we did. Ever see a two-year-old use a gun? Didn't think so.

[Selena]

What do the rules of engagement say about children with bazookas? Same rules still apply? You cannot fire until fired upon, otherwise it's a crime? I won't deny the possibility of the older children (10 and up, maybe) packin' some heat if their fathers had been killed and it was only the kid and his mom left, but there have been soldiers that have admitted shooting kids even if they weren't carrying firearms, and other civilians for that matter.


Have crimes of war been committed before? Of course. Are they being committed now? Yup. Does it make it right since it happened in the past? You're kidding yourself if you think so. The systematic murder of some Jews happened in the past, so by that logic, it makes it okay now?

Originally Posted by MK.
So it boils down to that you are defending the people who wish to do harm to us.

No enemy is pure 'evil', if evil exists at all. There's always a reason for why people do the things that they do, which includes acts of terrorism and guerrilla warfare. In the case of... well, most if not all of the countries in the Middle East, they don't have a large hi-tech army capable of standing up to the US in conventional war. That is, aside from Israel, but we're buddies with them. Iraq used to have a large army, but after Gulf War 1 it never really got all that powerful again. So... without the serious capability to launch a standard war, they have to resort to more inhumane tactics to attack.

They wish to do harm to us, and we wish to do harm to them. There's not much difference between both sides, apart from the size of the army. Pirates and emperors, ya know (if anyone remembers that flash).

[Goose]

That was a good flash. Remember also that its the winners that write history. They write history how they see it, not how it really might have been.