98 replies to this topic

[garsh]

G'dammit, read my post again. I'm complaining about people who think "the decision was made to appeal to the wrong crowd of gamers."

How do you figure? These are the references I see to the percieved complaints in your original post:

"All fantasy since LotR's publication has been a rip-off. If you're complaining that this is too close to the style of Peter Jackson ... then live with it"
That complaint has not been made, only wrongly percieved by you.

"Why is it a bad thing if they look similar?"
It's not. That's the point.

"'Goblins on Swine' ain't Jackson's property, so I don't see the problem."
Yes you do see a problem, but you're inventing it.

Based on these quotes, I would definately say you have completely not mentioned anyone complaining about "the decision being made to appeal to the wrong crowd of gamers". All of the things you said are directed to those are bothered by the LotR inspired look. These people have not posted in this thread, though, assuming they exist at all.

How about you read your post again.

[Zythe]

I wasn't thinking Tektite or Skulkulla. Skultullas have to have skull shells, otherwise their name is pointless.

I just hope the day never comes were Keese are rendered as fire-breathing mini-dragons.

Then don't play LA or OoX, because Vires, well they're dragons... made up of Keese.

[Chaltab]

It's too late for me not to play Oracle... but I think you knew what I meant.

[SteveT]

Another reason not to like the Oracles

[Chaltab]

There are multiple reasons?

I can't think of any reason to dislike the Oracles. Besides the confusion they add to the timeline. <_<

[ESK]

The oracles were GREAT games. Granted, I've only played Ages. And I haven't completed it yet, but still...

[lord-of-shadow]

I say this looks too much like LOTR, and that is definite a very bad thing. I'm not going to point out specific monsters or places - that's just a waste of time. It's not specific monsters that make it look like LOTR, it's the overall style of the game. It is the serious, high-fantasy feel that the trailer is filled to the brim with.

I love LOTR and Middle-Earth. I've read the Silmarillion about twelve times. I love Peter Jackson's movie adaptations. Fellowship of the Ring is my favorite movie, period. But the style used in those movies, the atmosphere they portrayed, does NOT fit Zelda.

Hopefully it's just the trailer.

[Alakhriveion]

How do you figure? These are the references I see to the percieved complaints in your original post:

"All fantasy since LotR's publication has been a rip-off. If you're complaining that this is too close to the style of Peter Jackson ... then live with it"
That complaint has not been made, only wrongly percieved by you.

"Why is it a bad thing if they look similar?"
It's not. That's the point.

"'Goblins on Swine' ain't Jackson's property, so I don't see the problem."
Yes you do see a problem, but you're inventing it.

Based on these quotes, I would definately say you have completely not mentioned anyone complaining about "the decision being made to appeal to the wrong crowd of gamers". All of the things you said are directed to those are bothered by the LotR inspired look. These people have not posted in this thread, though, assuming they exist at all.

How about you read your post again.

Nearly all the things you quoted are responses. I'm not sure how I 'invented' these problems if I was QUOTING SOMEONE ELSE.

[Zythe]

Another reason not to like the Oracles

Dude. Oracles are bloody brilliant games. I mean, they pwn LttP even.

[lord-of-shadow]

Looks like the adult part of OoT in style to me. Makes sense too.

Not really. There are differences in style, most of which come from a move towards more realism, if you can call it that.

OoT's graphics were low quality enough to retain a more cartoony style. No so in this trailer. And I do not like it.

[SteveT]

Dude. Oracles are bloody brilliant games. I mean, they pwn LttP even.

Blasphemy.

I only played Seasons, and it had Link riding around the pouch of a kangaroo in a linear and confusing fashion. I was not pleased.

[Alakhriveion]

Not really. There are differences in style, most of which come from a move towards more realism, if you can call it that.

OoT's graphics were low quality enough to retain a more cartoony style. No so in this trailer. And I do not like it.

Why not? What's wrong with realism? I say that LoZ was realistic (you just couldn't tell) and I don't see you complaining that it pandered to much to other fans.

Blasphemy.

I only played Seasons, and it had Link riding around the pouch of a kangaroo in a linear and confusing fashion. I was not pleased.

I agree. Also, Link must never remove his hat, for boxing or any other activity.

[SnowsilverKat]

Personally, I really have difficulty determining the 'feel' of the game just by how it looks.

How can we for a fact say it isn't 'Zelda' based on just how it looks, taking to the fact that what we've been shown so far of the game amounts to merely a large demo of the gameplay. We've been shown the framework of the game, and zero to nothing of the storyline. Sure, we can speculate, but most of the trailer was there to display game mechanics. Very little of the trailers were showing actual mood or storyline (there are a few shots, like the 'Doshin the Giant' one and the wolf one that I would actually count as 'mood' shots)

To take SteveT's comment, riding around in the pouch of a kangaroo, which some people might find absolutely absurd.

That's what Zelda does, it does absurd things that for some odd reason, just fit.

I have every faith that this Zelda game will have its share of absurdity. But based on what we've been given so far, I find it very difficult to really give a clear verdict. How can we say that the game is 'LoTR-ish?' Just on how it looks? Are we really going to be that superficial?

Wind Waker was awesome, for all how it looked 'nothing more' than like a 'cartoon.' It had its moments of complete and utter absurdity, and it was wonderful for it.

In conclusion, appearances does not a Zelda game make.

[SOAP]

Goddamn. This is just like when the first screenshots of TWW came out and people automatically assumed it was too cartoony. Gawd! Can't you people be happy for once!?

[Zythe]

I was happy with TWW. It was a good style for Zelda.

[Chaltab]

TWW style ruled, and I hate to see it go.

Maybe Miyamoto can alternate between realistic and cartoon.

[Alakhriveion]

Goddamn. This is just like when the first screenshots of TWW came out and people automatically assumed it was too cartoony. Gawd! Can't you people be happy for once!?

No. No we cannot.

[lord-of-shadow]

Why not? What's wrong with realism? I say that LoZ was realistic (you just couldn't tell) and I don't see you complaining that it pandered to much to other fans.

My complaints are about my own personal opions on what we've seen of the game. Whether or not is it pandering to other fans means absolutely nothing to me.

And if I wanted realism, I wouldn't play video games, obviously. I'd explain more, but you're not an idiot, Alak - you should be able to know exactly what I mean, whether or not you agree.

And allow me to quote Snowsilverkat:

To take SteveT's comment, riding around in the pouch of a kangaroo, which some people might find absolutely absurd.

That's what Zelda does, it does absurd things that for some odd reason, just fit.

That is applicable to graphics and styles, as well.



Now. If you'll look back and re-read my posts, you'll see that I have been very careful to avoid judging the game itself. I have been judging the trailer and what we have seen of the game so far. I'm fairly sure that a good number of my complaints will carry over to the finished game, just as I am positive that some will be left behind. But my current comments apply to the trailer and the impression of the game that it gives me.

In conclusion, appearances does not a Zelda game make.

Appearances play a vital role in establishing mood, atmosphere, and context. And the mood, atmosphere, and context conveyed by the visual aspects of this recent trailer are less than satisfactory, in my eyes. Too reminiscent of LOTR and other darker toned "high" fantasy, and certainly not suited to the Zelda series.

[SnowsilverKat]

Just to clarify, I like TWW's style. Note I used quotes around the word 'cartoon,' because that's how it was being classified in some circles.

But yeah, no matter what the screenshots or the graphics or whatever are, not everyone's going to like it. And that's okay, it's just interesting to point out how fickle we gamers are from time to time.

[SOAP]

This is stupid. You people are already judging the game just by a few screenshots and a trailer. That's the same thing the cel-hatters did not so long ago before TWW was released. I betcha I could pick out a few screen from the Earth Temple, Forsakened Fortress, frozen Hyrule, and the final battle with Ganon and claim that TWW is a T-rated game. Just because a few screens have a "dark" feel to it, doesn't mean the whole game would be like that. I mean c'mon people! When has a game or movie turned out to be EXACTLY like how the trailer potrayed it to be. Trailers either make things scarier, cheerier, or more serious than they what they actually turned out to be.

[NightStar]

MJ just took the words right out of my head. We can't really make an accurate assesment on the trailer alone. It would not be fair to the Zelda series we have all come to love. We should wait for the game to come out and then see how it really is.

[garsh]

Nearly all the things you quoted are responses. I'm not sure how I 'invented' these problems if I was QUOTING SOMEONE ELSE.

Maybe because you were paraphrasing and drawing connotation that didn't necessarily exist.

Having re-read BatchGC's original post I can see what you were responding to. I only take issue with how you did it. It was as if you were confronting complaints that hadn't yet made it into this thread. He never said it was a "problem" to him, for instance, but you took one as implied, which is understandable.

I think you and I interpreted what he said very differently. To me, his orginal post expressed his concern in how others would recieve the style. It seems like you reacted to it more as if he were complaining on his own behalf. I can see that now, and I can definately see why you would take it that way.

I say this looks too much like LOTR, and that is definite a very bad thing. I'm not going to point out specific monsters or places - that's just a waste of time. It's not specific monsters that make it look like LOTR, it's the overall style of the game. It is the serious, high-fantasy feel that the trailer is filled to the brim with.

lord-of-shadow, you're right that it's not about specific examples of monsters and so on. But it's more than just "'high' fantasy" too. It seems pointless to bring it up, though, since I really can't pin down exactly what it is.

The whole presentation, especially in the first trailer, has a very LotR (Peter Jackson, Alak) "feel" to it. How to quantify or show evidence for that, though, is beyond me. It's a very subtle, but tangible, style similarity that seems so obvious to me as to be undeniable.

I, for one, really like it, though. The only thing that lets me down about the whole things is how much I was looking forward to an actual Wind Waker 2. I'm happy about the current state of what we've seen so far, though, and I'm looking forward to this Zelda more than I have any game since Link to the Past, I think.

[Octorok]

New gohma -> Shelob
Fiery monster (original trailer) -> Balrog
The dead soldiers -> The dead of Gondor
Link riding a boar -> Warg Riders
The wooden man in the woods -> Ents
Link chased by flying dragons -> Flying Nazgul.

New Gohma: hasn't Gohma always been some what spider-like?
Fiery monster: There have been a bunch of fiery monsters in Zelda games
The dead soldiers: Zombies and ghosts have been in every Zelda game since OoT, I think
Link riding a boar: wargs aren't boars, they are wolves.
The wooden man in the woods: does that mean the Deku Trees and Maku Trees are ents too?
Link chased by flying dragons: dragons are a common element in fantasy stories, and have appeared in Zelda games more than once.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Goddamn. This is just like when the first screenshots of TWW came out and people automatically assumed it was too cartoony. Gawd! Can't you people be happy for once!?

That's because the Zelda series has a great diversity of fans. When WW came out, some fans were displeased and said "OMG! How could they make such a cool game like Zelda so cartoony and childish! I'm gonna shoot miymoto in the ass for making Link look like a f-ing retard" Other fans said "OMG! Link looks so cuuuute! This game is gonna be super-fun!". Now this new game is introduced, and it is flipped the other way around. The fans that didn't like WW are now "OMG! L33T RoXXoRS!" and the fans on the other extreme are all "OMG! It looks so scaaary!" Now, I know I am exaggerating A LOT but it was only to get my point across.

[lord-of-shadow]

This is stupid. You people are already judging the game just by a few screenshots and a trailer. That's the same thing the cel-hatters did not so long ago before TWW was released. I betcha I could pick out a few screen from the Earth Temple, Forsakened Fortress, frozen Hyrule, and the final battle with Ganon and claim that TWW is a T-rated game. Just because a few screens have a "dark" feel to it, doesn't mean the whole game would be like that. I mean c'mon people! When has a game or movie turned out to be EXACTLY like how the trailer potrayed it to be. Trailers either make things scarier, cheerier, or more serious than they what they actually turned out to be.

Now. If you'll look back and re-read my posts, you'll see that I have been very careful to avoid judging the game itself. I have been judging the trailer and what we have seen of the game so far. I'm fairly sure that a good number of my complaints will carry over to the finished game, just as I am positive that some will be left behind. But my current comments apply to the trailer and the impression of the game that it gives me.

I'm willing to bet that pretty much everyone that is criticising this is in the exact same position as me. They're criticizing the trailer, the impression of the game it gives, and what we have seen so far. I am also willing to bet that everyone here knows that it is the purpose of a trailer to exaggerate and give skewed versions of the product it is advertising.

Trying to slam things we are already fuly aware of into our heads it as waste of time, and only serves to annoy.

[SOAP]

Oh. What. Ever! People here, including you, are already settling their opinions based on a trailer and that's just stupid whether it's in regards to the game or just the trailer itself. Trailers are only meant to grab your attention, not be taken so critically. There's not even enough in the trailer to even make a decision whether it's be liked or not. But do whatever the hell you like. It's still stupid.

[Octorok]

That's because the Zelda series has a great diversity of fans. When WW came out, some fans were displeased and said "OMG! How could they make such a cool game like Zelda so cartoony and childish! I'm gonna shoot miymoto in the ass for making Link look like a f-ing retard" Other fans said "OMG! Link looks so cuuuute! This game is gonna be super-fun!". Now this new game is introduced, and it is flipped the other way around. The fans that didn't like WW are now "OMG! L33T RoXXoRS!" and the fans on the other extreme are all "OMG! It looks so scaaary!" Now, I know I am exaggerating A LOT but it was only to get my point across.

I liked TWW's style and I think the new style looks cool too.

[Chaltab]

At first I was compelty behind the new look, but it is looking more and more like Jackson's LotR.. And while that may generate sells, it isn't good for the series...

The crux of the matter is that Miyamoto shouldn't have to sacrifce Zelda's soul and its innate quirkiness to satisfy the masses. I don't wan't Zelda to become generic.

*cringes as he types that last word*

[Octorok]

Relax Chaltab, it will never become generic. They're just trying to give it a new look. They probably just figure that they've used the cartoon-esque theme a little to much, and are trying to compensate by making one game that is realistic. If it keeps the elements that have been in previous Zelda games, then it shouldn't seem to LotR-ish, and even if it does, it will probably be the only game in that style. I mean, LotR won't be the "in" thing forever, so why would they continuously base games on its style?