161 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

It doesn't really work that way. They don't just decide to be attracted to the same sex. Bisexuals can't just change their mind every week and choose to be attracted to a different sex.

Apparently, though, most lesbians claim to have chosen their sexuality when polled. Conversely, most males claim to have been born homosexual when polled.

Twin studies have so far found a few possible correlations between male homosexuality and the number of older brothers you have. The more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be homosexual, but this correlation doesn't work for females apparently.

Every time I read a study about homosexuality and genetic factors, for some strange reason whatever hypothesis is proposed, it doesn't work for lesbians. Go figure.

[Oberon Storm]

Apparently, though, most lesbians claim to have chosen their sexuality when polled. Conversely, most males claim to have been born homosexual when polled.

I have no hard data, but I would imagine women claim many reason for being lesbian. Going from being born lesbian to rape. I have heard of some choosing to be lesbian to make some political statement. I haven't really heard this with men. I don't know.

Twin studies have so far found a few possible correlations between male homosexuality and the number of older brothers you have. The more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be homosexual, but this correlation doesn't work for females apparently.

I don't always take correlations as evidence of anything. Correlation is not always equal to cause and effect. In this case I would find it hard to believe someone was gay because he had 4 brothers as opposed to the guy next door with only 1. But again, no hard data.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Well, there's this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm...._uids=11910793. It's all statistics, so I don't like to rely on it that much, but it does bring about some interesting questions, wouldn't you agree?

Then, of course, if you don't trust an article from the Archives of Sexual Behaviour, perhaps you'd like to see the one from Nature genetics? (WARNING: Will require paid access to view but the link at least gives you the article abstract).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=7581447.

Yes, their criteria is rather restrictive, but what they've found correlates with a previous study.

Here is another paper that studied the same chromosomal area:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=8332896

I apologise that you can only read their abstracts and hence will have no idea what any of them have done. It's the best I can do with the given resources, however.

Interesting as all this is, however, I must agree with the following report:

Research into the genetic component of some complex behaviors often causes controversy, depending on the social meaning and significance of the behavior under study. Research into sexual orientation-simplistically referred to as "gay gene" research-is an example of research that provokes intense controversy. This research is worrisome for many reasons, including the fact that it has been used to harm lesbians and gay men. Many homosexual people have been forced to undergo "treatments" to change their sexual orientation. Other chose to undergo them to escape discrimination and social disapprobation. But there are other reasons to worry about such research. The very motivation for seeking an "origin" of homosexuality reveals homophobia. Moreover, such research may lead to prenatal tests that claim to predict for homosexuality. For homosexual people who live in countries with no legal protections these dangers are particularly serious.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9271716

[Zythe]

So, what, having two many older brothers makes you gay because they pick on you and call you a girly boy? I understand it's only in some cases, but disease clusters always seem to hold true.

[Oberon Storm]

The first article doesn't bring up any question. I still doubt the number of older brothers you have has anything to do with whether or not you will be gay.

The only problem with the articles about a possible genetic link is that they couldn't find the same correlation in women.

[SOAP]

Zythe is only fourteen!? Oy, I better stop hitting on him at the LA Games forum.

I'm pretty sure I already explained to you why Christians don't obey the Torah. Did you read my post? Or would you like references?

How 'bout you explain why Christians don't follow those laws from the Torah but other laws, like the no gay sex one which is in the same chapter no less, are still in effect. Provide a line from the New Testament that was made by someone who wasn't notorious for being homophobic, anti-semitic, and womanizing.

This is a different subject altogether. But as long as you brought it up, how is it "hating" to believe that other religions are wrong? This is a common assumption in modern day society, which is thoroughly addicted to relativism. According to this worldview, if you don't accept another person's beliefs as equally valid as your own, you're a bigot who hates all people of said belief.  And that very idea is fallacious.

First of all, how do you know they don't worship the same god as you do? Last time I checked we were all made by the same creator so why couldn't he/she/they have made themselves known in different ways to different people in different parts of the globe at different points in history. Hell, people within the same church building don't have entirely the same view as God. Maybe Muslims, Mormons, and Wiccans interpret him/her differently.

Secondly, how do you know your religion is right? There's no proof of that. No religion has God entirely right. Some are closer than others but no one relion is THE one religion. If that were so than more than 80% of the world's population is screwed. Anyways, as I understood, it's not religion that saves. It's a combination of faith and works which can be expressed no matter if your Christian, Muslim, whatever. Just as long as your heart is in the right place.

Thirdly, it's one thing to say others' beliefs aren't as valid as yours. It's something altogether to say everyone else who doesn't share your belief is a tool of Satan that tries to pull people away from God. Which is what my Youth leader was preaching. To kids between the ages of 13 and 19. Such bigoted ignorance is poisonous to young minds.

[SOAP]

Arunma asked how is it "hating" to believe other religions are wrong. I explained how it can be. You may feel that your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong but those are just just you're beliefs. I'm pretty sure Muslims, Mormons, Jews or whatever all believe the same their religions are right too, possibly even more passionately than most christians I see. But go ahead. Believe what you want. That's all fine and dandy. It's just that when people take it too far by saying they're wrong because they're devil worshippers, that their ideas are an abomination and that anyone who follows those religions will go to hell. That's just ignorant. You don't like it when people like me start badmouthing christianty and yet they are christians who say a whole lot worse about other religions. Hell, they even they're sects badmouth each other! I never said having faith in God as a christian was wrong. It's not faith I'm talking about because that has to do with spirituality not religion. You can be religious all you want but even the most religious person still can wind up in hell.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

So, what, having two many older brothers makes you gay because they pick on you and call you a girly boy? I understand it's only in some cases, but disease clusters always seem to hold true.

No, you misread the post entirely. I said having too many olders brothers increases the change of you becoming gay, according to the study. It doesn't necessarily mean you're gay, but means you're more likely.

Arunma asked how is it "hating" to believe other religions are wrong. I explained how it can be. You may feel that your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong but those are just just you're beliefs.

It's not necessarily hating. It may, however, be classed as arrogance, but I don't that's hating.

[SOAP]

It's hating when you resort to demonizing your opponents. That's all I was saying. I'm not saying all christians do it nor am I accusing anyone here. Just stating what happened at my baptist church and other christians I've spoken to. Honestly I don't see what the point is in arguing over religion anyways. What's the big deal if we worship God in our own ways. As long as it's God we're giving praise to shouldn't that be enough? Now it has to come to the point where if you don't belong to a certian religion or call God by a certain name you're worshipping something other than God? Excuse me but I was under the impression that christianity revolved around God, not the other way around.:s:

[arunma]

How 'bout you explain why Christians don't follow those laws from the Torah but other laws, like the no gay sex one which is in the same chapter no less, are still in effect. Provide a line from the New Testament that was made by someone who wasn't notorious for being homophobic, anti-semitic, and womanizing.

None of the New Testament authors were anti-semitic, or womanizing (and the idea of homophobia didn't even exist back then). Does Paul suffice? He clearly wasn't anti-semitic (because he said that he would be willing to give up his salvation to save the Jews), and he most certainly wasn't womanizing, because he was celibate. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says this.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So there you go: New Testament evidence that prohibits homosexual activity within the church (because we don't govern the practices of the outside world).

First of all, how do you know they don't worship the same god as you do? Last time I checked we were all made by the same creator so why couldn't he/she/they have made themselves known in different ways to different people in different parts of the globe at different points in history.

That's pure speculation. You can believe whatever you want, but that's not what Christianity advocates.

Secondly, how do you know your religion is right? There's no proof of that.

You do know that there's a fallacy in trying to "prove" faith, right?

No religion has God entirely right. Some are closer than others but no one relion is THE one religion.

How do you know? Did God tell you?

If that were so than more than 80% of the world's population is screwed.

This is an example of a logical fallacy. You're assuming that just because an assertion results in bad consequences means that the assertion is wrong.

It's something altogether to say everyone else who doesn't share your belief is a tool of Satan that tries to pull people away from God.

Your words, not mine. You're arguing with a straw man.

And you might be interested to know that Arun doesn't believe that good works are necessary. He really does think that you can be saved on belief alone. I could be wrong, but he may not believe that you are saved "as long as your heart is in the right place." He might hope that God is lenient and that that's the case, especially since he's such a nice guy, and no one wants others to go to Hell.

Heh, thanks Tanaka! Mostly you got my doctrine right. But I do think that good works are "necessary" for salvation in the sense that anyone with saving faith will automatically do good deeds. So I still believe in sola gratia and sola fide, but I also think that good deeds are a necessary evidence of faith. Sort of like you Catholics!

[Alakhriveion]

This has gone in to another topic, one which mixes poorly with the original one. I'm closing this and ordering you to start a new thread on the subject.