161 replies to this topic

[Khuffie]

You know what's sad? Yesterday RyePride, Ryerson University's gay/lesbian group, had an event commemorating the death of the gays and lesbians...

...during the holocaust.

[Chikara Nadir]

*sneaks in* Somehow I think that this gay/lesbian group...was missing the overall picture. o.o


Anyway....you know how war goes. "Only apologize if you lose". I still haven't heard any apologies from the US government for destroying hundreds of schools, mosques and hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it's not something I expect any time soon. Irrelevant to topic. ^^;

[Korhend]

You know what's sad? Yesterday RyePride, Ryerson University's gay/lesbian group, had an event commemorating the death of the gays and lesbians...

...during the holocaust.

Whats really Ironic was that they mentioned just the holocaust.

[Hero of Winds]

*sneaks in* Somehow I think that this gay/lesbian group...was missing the overall picture. o.o


Anyway....you know how war goes. "Only apologize if you lose". I still haven't heard any apologies from the US government for destroying hundreds of schools, mosques and hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it's not something I expect any time soon. Irrelevant to topic. ^^;

Mods? Can I respond to this, or would it be considered off topic?

[Korhend]

fair enough, chik, no offense but thats a whole nother debate.

[Dryth]

Wasn't Khuffie's post a "whole nother debate."

Particularly given the questionable nature of the claim. RyePride doesn't have any such events scheduled, past or present. There're posters around for the anti-homophobia workshop, which briefly addresses Buchenwald because... y'know... gays were actively rounded up and killed there, convicted for having been homosexual.

[Alakhriveion]

And lo, Alakhriveion saw this, and the thread was split.

[Zythe]

This may sound uber-contro but, if the basic program is to be straight or at least to mate with the opposite sex once, do gays and lesbians have a mental disease? Take no offence.

*cowers*

[Chukchi Husky]

do gays and lesbians have a mental disease?

Some say it's because of chromosomes and hormones...

[Wolf O'Donnell]

The aim is not to have sex with a person of the opposite gender. The aim is survival of the fittest, not because the fittest survive, but because the fittest can pass on genes that are beneficial to the offspring.

All life concerns genes.

Genes seek to propogate themselves, to divide, to spread.

The consesus is currnetly thusly:

Say there are two individuals, A and B. Both have common parents, C and D. Because they both have common parents, they both share genes from their parents. If one is incapable of reproducing, say individual B, then it doesn't matter because individual A is likely to have the same genes too (not all the same genes, but at least a good number). Thus, individual B can still contribute to the survival of his/her genes by helping individual A and ensuring that individual A reproduces and that A's offspring survives.

Homosexuals can still fit into society. Their role is to ensure that those with copies of their own genes survive or perhaps homosexuality is a gentle way of removing unwanted genes from the gene pool. (that's a strange comment for a homosexual to say, isn't it?)

go to http://www.ncbi.nlm....trez/query.fcgi and type in homosexual or homosexuality. You'll find a number of articles and an increasing amount of evidence to suggest that homosexuality has some geneic basis.

[arunma]

Alakhriveion is the greatest? Where'd that come from?

[Alakhriveion]

Well, it's true, isn't it?

[Korhend]

do gays and lesbians have a mental disease? Take no offence.

As much as any other people have a mental "disease". They just have better representation.

[Alakhriveion]

I'd say they have some sort of defect, but so do plenty of good people in this world. I think you're right that it's not quite what nature intended (all DNA wants to be passed on), so some defect must be in effect.

I don't think so. First, it's been for some reason selected for- homosexuality is so amazingly common in animals, including humans, and I can't think of another reason why this might be the case. It also doesn't always prevent DNA from being passed on, as exclusive homosexuality is so rare. Beyond that, maybe.

[Zythe]

Is the basic program strict heterosexuality? Or on a purely physical level, are we designed so that sex satisfies, which is what encourages reproduction right? So if some people (namely lesbians and queers) prefer a certain type of sex, then they'll ignore the sex they don't enjoy? And where do bisexuals fit in ... or is bisexuality like ... the basic unconditioned programming for animals, with society having changed the way humans think to such degrees that it becomes nearly unthinkable? Eh. Even I don't get what I'm getting at.

[Dryth]

I don't see why it would be selected for- it seems like it would be a losing trait. And you act as if animals don't have defects.

Humans have many "losing traits." It's silly to make an issue out of them. Why're we here posting on a forum, after all? Doesn't seem terribly constructive. Certainly isn't helping our capacity for procreation. Must be some sort of genetic defect. Or behavioral.

If a "losing trait" is specifically one that hinders procreation, one must realize that gays can still have children. Many do, and many want to.

It's also hard to speak of what "nature intends." Homosexuality's been around for a heck of a long time, and if "nature" intended otherwise, one would expect for it to be a diminishing trend. The same would be true for animals if it were some crucial negative defect in them as well.

People do what gets them off. Again, this is true for many things. Why play video games? Why eat McDonalds? Why skateboard? Why listen to music? Why eat sugar? Why read fiction? Why watch TV? Why smoke? Why consumer alcohol? None of these directly facilitate the passing on of DNA. Many of them come with severe health risks. It's called "human nature"... a special brand that's been giving "real" nature the finger for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

[Goose]

The human race could be called a defective race. If so, I'm one of the most defective. I'm half deaf, so i have to wear a hearing aide, and i'm short sighted, soi have to wear glasses. I had a weird shaped jaw, that made me eat like a dog, so I had to have surgery. Then add on the braces and the squeaky voice...

It could be called a defective race, or it could be that we just judge people by a certain way that they should behave. Anything outside the accepted norm gets called defective. If it weren't for new technology, I wouldn't be able to hear a thing. Homosexuality is, at the moment, considered outisde the norm, so therfor people consider it to be a defect.

Another thing, most useful inventions were actually just defects of what people thought they were to be. People came accross them by accident, and if they hadn't seen another use for the object, it would just be cast out into the defective pile.

[Zythe]

^ I'm half deaf. I go to an ordinary school I know a whole load of half deaf people. Anyway, back on topic...

[Alakhriveion]

People do what gets them off. Again, this is true for many things. Why play video games? Why eat McDonalds? Why skateboard? Why listen to music? Why eat sugar? Why read fiction? Why watch TV? Why smoke? Why consumer alcohol? None of these directly facilitate the passing on of DNA. Many of them come with severe health risks. It's called "human nature"... a special brand that's been giving "real" nature the finger for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

Not really. Video Games play off of instincts we evolved for hunting and fighting. McDonalds tastes like (although doesn't contain) nutrients. Skateboarding is... well, let's say it's for morons and ignore that one. Sugar is good for you in natural quantities. Fiction is social inauguration, it plays off our need to maintain connections when we're not good at it. Alchohol is a poison, and we've got genes that make us good at not dying from it, because it's so common in our food sources. Everything makes sense.

The human race could be called a defective race. If so, I'm one of the most defective. I'm half deaf, so i have to wear a hearing aide, and i'm short sighted, soi have to wear glasses. I had a weird shaped jaw, that made me eat like a dog, so I had to have surgery. Then add on the braces and the squeaky voice...

Not at all, we're very well adapted. Those aren't usually genetic defects, and even if they were, part of what makes us so well adapted is our ability to create social systems that deal with it.

[Wanchimaera]

Dryth, all those things that you mentioned are things that people consciously choose to do, therefore aren't genetic. Gay people can't choose who they are attracted to, so none of those are good parallels.

Are you sure that all gay people cannot chose who they're attracted to?

[Dryth]

Not really. Video Games play off of instincts we evolved for hunting and fighting. McDonalds tastes like (although doesn't contain) nutrients. Skateboarding is... well, let's say it's for morons and ignore that one. Sugar is good for you in natural quantities. Fiction is social inauguration, it plays off our need to maintain connections when we're not good at it. Alchohol is a poison, and we've got genes that make us good at not dying from it, because it's so common in our food sources. Everything makes sense.

When half of it is cognitive dissonance.

Few videogames recreate anything resembling the act of hunting in how they affect us. While natural sugars are good, most of the modern teenager's sugar intake is processed. Reading remains a private activity, and fiction has only rare positive grounds in reality; it's escapism, not part of our social function.

If our success were judged by our capacity to procreate, and we were all naturally driven to the pursuit of such, we'd all be out playing sports and eating healthy, rather than sitting on our asses and consuming ourselves to death.

Dryth, all those things that you mentioned are things that people consciously choose to do, therefore aren't genetic. Gay people can't choose who they are attracted to, so none of those are good parallels.

Methinks you grant too much faith to conscious choice...

Even if we were to accept that we're entirely the masters of our own destiny, you miss the forest for the trees. We as humans do a lot of things that are harmful to ourselves. Things that have little positive impact on us. Things that make us pale, frail, and sickly. Things that isolate us from others, destroy our social skills, and yellow our teeth. Things that hinder our capacity to pass on our DNA, whether through the above, or by shrinking our testes and burning out our ovaries. The point being that we as humans, both by nature and by choice, are prone to live out our lives in ways that directly conflict with the process of passing the seed. It's a symptom of the human condition. Homosexuality is simply a drop in the bucket.

[Wanchimaera]

I'm not gay, so I really wouldn't know.

[Coltxdoom]

I'm not gay, so I really wouldn't know.

Do you chose to be heterosexual? Could you MAKE yourself turn gay?

[Oberon Storm]

I think there are people out there that choose to be gay to make some sort of political statement. I think there are more lesbians of this kind then gay men. Of course I have no real data. I just heard of some people doing this. I beleive the vast majority do NOT choose to be gay.

[Alakhriveion]

Reading remains a private activity, and fiction has only rare positive grounds in reality; it's escapism, not part of our social function.

Someone in my house *glances angrily* editted my post before I put it up... punk. It's supposed to say "social masturbation," I know it serves no purpose, the same way I can't get Hillary Duff pregnant by doing... things... I do.

I think there are people out there that choose to be gay to make some sort of political statement. I think there are more lesbians of this kind then gay men. Of course I have no real data. I just heard of some people doing this. I beleive the vast majority do NOT choose to be gay.

Way more than the vast majority, when homosexuality is acceptbale, you have great numbers of people who go for it. While it's not, like right now, they don't. I'd say around 50% of people are in some way, shape or form, gay, and there are number to back them up, but I don't have them, and don't care about this enough to go get them.

Few videogames recreate anything resembling the act of hunting in how they affect us.

Well, they do: they induce an adrenaline high, make you mad at something, whether it's an enemy or the game itself, and occasionally they work teamwork into this.

If our success were judged by our capacity to procreate, and we were all naturally driven to the pursuit of such, we'd all be out playing sports and eating healthy, rather than sitting on our asses and consuming ourselves to death.

That's not how we evolved. We're quite suited to having some people sit on their asses all day, as long as they do some good. What we're doing here, not so much.

Do you chose to be heterosexual? Could you MAKE yourself turn gay?

Ever seen this one?
1. What do you think has caused you to be heterosexual?

2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?

3. Is it possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of people of the same sex?

4. If you've never slept with a person of the same sex, how do you know you wouldn't prefer it?

5. Isn't it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?

6. Isn't it possible that all you need is a good gay lover?

7. If heterosexuality is normal, why are a disproportionate number of mental patients heterosexual?

8. To whom have you disclosed your heterosexual tendencies? How did they react?

9. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex? Why are they so promiscuous?

10. Do heterosexuals hate and/or distrust others of their own sex? Is that what makes them heterosexual?

11. If you were to have children, would you want them to be heterosexual knowing the problems they'd face?

12. Your heterosexuality doesn't offend me as long as you don't try to force it on me. Why do you feel compelled to seduce others into your sexual orientation?

13. The great majority of child molesters are heterosexuals. Do you really consider it safe to expose your children to heterosexual teachers?

14. Why do you insist on being so obvious, and making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can't you just be who you are and keep it quiet?

15. How can you ever hope to become a whole person if you limit yourself to a compulsive, exclusively heterosexual lifestyle, and remain unwilling to explore and develop your homosexual potential?

16. Heterosexuals are noted for assigning themselves and each other to narrowly restricted, stereotyped sex-roles. Why do you cling to such unhealthy role playing?

17. Even with all the societal support marriage receives, the divorce rate is spiralling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?

18. How could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual like you, considering the menace of overpopulation?

19. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed that could help you change if you really wanted to. Have you considered trying psychotherapy or even aversion therapy?

21. Could you really trust a heterosexual therapist/counsellor to be objective and unbiased? Don't you fear he/she might be inclined to influence you in the direction of his/her own preferences?

22. How can you enjoy a full, satisfying sexual experience or deep emotional rapport with a person of the opposite sex when the differences are so vast? How can a man understand what pleases a woman, or vice-versa?

[Zythe]

Those are some strange questions, Alak. I think channel 4 might have it right: we, the straight population have let ourselves go so God created gays and metros to sort things out and make us attractive to women. Yes, it was an ad for QEFTSG, but still.