105 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

I think Ramsay killing Roose is to set up his downfall. Roose was clever enough to hold it all together, but Ramsay just doomed himself. I was rather pleased to see the betrayal, because it means he's very unlikely to survive the season. 

[SteveT]

I agree.  Basically every conversation Roose and Ramsay has is basically:

 

Roose: Yes, torturing people is super fun, but you need to be subtle about it.  Not everyone understands us Boltons.

Ramsay: Whatever, Dad!

 

And how did their last conversation go?  The same way, with Roose cautioning Ramsay against impulsive behavior, followed by Ramsay feeling that his station was threatened because of the new trueborn brother and acting impulsively.  Roose played it cool and obfuscated his horrible deeds, but Ramsay is a rabid dog who murdered his own father in front of two witnesses because he couldn't wait five minutes to come up with a better plan.

 

He'll lose the north, at the very least.  Roose, especially Show Roose could have gotten away with the Red Wedding.  Ramsay can't hang on to a secret or an advantage to save his life.

[Selena]

Yeah, this season should be Ramsay's last one (they don't have many other high profile baddies to kill before endgame). Between Ramsay's stated plans to attack the Wall and production shots of Jon fighting in Stark-style armor, it looks like another big northern battle is imminent. Probably midseason? 

 

Bonus: Apparently a scene at Winterfell was rehearsed. Involving Sansa, Jon, Littlefinger, and Ramsay. And our friend Wun Wun the Giant. Both Ramsay and Littlefinger could theoretically go out this season.

 

If so, I would definitely expect next season to be the last one. 

[Veteran]

ROOOOOOOSE!!!!

:'(

[Selena]

And there it is.

 

 

Sorry again, Vet.

[Selena]

Filler episode, but it wasn't too bad.

 

 

 

Liked the flashbacks again, although I wasn't overly fond of their depiction of Arthur Dayne. No legendary meteorite sword, but DUAL WIELDING LONGSWORDS BECAUSE RULE OF COOL! Fight ended how most people assumed it would; Howland Reed surprise attack. Lyanna deathbed / Jon Snow parentage scene next week?

 

BABY STARK. Jesus, Rickon is almost as tall as Osha now. Aaaaaad another direwolf dead, great. Guess we're in for more of Ramsay torturing Starks That said, I find it hard to believe that the Umbers would support House Bolton or turn against a Stark. Great Northern Conspiracy? The Umbers are very anti-Bolton, but that's mostly in the books.

 

Tyrion's little scene with Gray Worm and Missandei was a waste of precious screen time.

 

Dany's plot this season is boring once again. Intrigued to see how she eventually gets out of her predicament, though, and I hope it has nothing to do with either Daario or Jorah. You can tell that Dany was the POV most negatively impacted by Martin not doing his planned timeskip after Storm of Swords. Unless, I suppose, the stresses of mismanaging government play a role in her eventual fate.

 

So, sounds like we're definitely having the Mountain do a trial by combat. More hints toward Cleganebowl, as the Hound was rumored to be on set during production.

[Crimson Lego]

Liked the flashbacks again, although I wasn't overly fond of their depiction of Arthur Dayne. No legendary meteorite sword, but DUAL WIELDING LONGSWORDS BECAUSE RULE OF COOL! Fight ended how most people assumed it would; Howland Reed surprise attack. Lyanna deathbed / Jon Snow parentage scene next week?

Yeah, it's a shame pretty much every fight in the show is only done with ordinary weapons.
 
For the ToJ scene I think they should've extended the dialogue between Ned and Arthur - to show-only people it seemed a little abrupt and didn't capture the full impact of the Kingsguard being there and not with Viserys/Dany at Dragonstone. 
 

I find it hard to believe that the Umbers would support House Bolton or turn against a Stark. Great Northern Conspiracy? The Umbers are very anti-Bolton, but that's mostly in the books.

I sense a plot twist for this one: show-wise, Ramsay can't kill a living Stark in front of all the northern lords without them killing him on the spot. He'll probably send a letter to Jon saying he has Rickon (show's substitute for the Pink Letter, perhaps?), which causes Jon to ride down with the wildings. Then near the end of the season GNC will happen in Winterfell forcing Ramsay out, cue choreographed fight between Jon and Ramsay.

 

 

I mean, I think in the show Roose emphasizes how all the Northern houses are resentful of the Boltons so that would work out.

 

 

Also from reading Reddit people have been saying that head is too small for it to be Shaggydog's so I'm holding out hope D:

 

[Twinrova]

Yeah I'm doubtful that's actually Shaggydog. Ramsay has never seen a direwolf and wouldn't know what they actually look like.

Please god do not let Cleganebowl be a thing. Please please no. That is the dumbest fucking theory and I hate it so much oh my god. >:U

[Jasi]

For the ToJ scene I think they should've extended the dialogue between Ned and Arthur - to show-only people it seemed a little abrupt and didn't capture the full impact of the Kingsguard being there and not with Viserys/Dany at Dragonstone. 

 

 

 

For sure. This was alllll glossed over. I spend more time on wikis than the average show watcher but I was still a bit lost on what the significance was. I was like okay, I know this is the Tower of Joy, I know Lyanna is in there, etc. etc. but I'm not totally clear on why this is such a big deal. Get rid of that lame Mereen scene and flesh out the flashbacks more plz. 

[Selena]

Based on preview: Dear god I hope that's a teaser for Sansa eventually executing Littlefinger. I have a feeling he'll slime his way out of it, but things have been going smoother for the heroes this season, so maybe. It would be fitting in both story canons. Given her family connections with the Vale, that could easily create an alliance between the North, the Vale, and the remaining Tully forces in the Riverlands, plus the wildlings. An army formidable enough to pose a threat to the other battered houses.

 

Jon is still a bastard, so it would be Sansa or Rickon who ultimately controls that juggernaut. But I have a feeling that Baby-Stark won't last too long. 

 

 

 

No more flashbacks in this one; probably next episode since it'll be precisely midseason next week. A good time to drop the Lyanna bomb. 

 

Dany managed to rescue herself, fortunately. Her victories largely involve being set on fire. 

 

Poor Osha. An attempt was made. I have a feeling that her actress either couldn't commit to a full season or the writers couldn't come up with a suitable story for her character, so.... abrupt end.

 

Having read the books, I know how Yara's bid for Queen of the Iron Islands will turn out, but it will be interesting to see how Theon will eventually play into the storyline. He was still with Ramsay up through the last book.

 

I'm curious to see how the Tyrell + Lannister plot will work out. I really don't have much faith in Olenna being so direct about working with Cersei, even if Margaery's freedom is at stake. It's a tense situation; one that both sides could use to their advantage. And obviously, Cersei just wants to break up the Faith without getting her own hands dirty, thus shifting public blame to House Tyrell. Personally, if the Tyrells don't find a way to twist things into their favor and have the plot backfire on Cersei, I will be disappointed. They are easily the cleverest house and have been masterfully plotting since they entered the story.

 

 

I never knew I wanted Tormund and Brienne to hook up until this episode, but oh.

[Crimson Lego]

It's definitely cool to see Jon and Sansa reunite, since they never really interact with each other in the show or the books. Yay happy Starks (but also yay finally Pink Letter) :3

 

 

This was a good thread contrasting Jon and Daenerys based on everything we know/seen up till now: https://www.reddit.c...hy_people_like/ I think the ending of the series politically-wise will involve a ruler of what's left of the Seven Kingdoms be somebody who is chosen by the people or leads the best rather than all this debate over birthright (i.e. the wildlings have it right).

 

 

Or everyone dies to the Others, who knows?

 

[Selena]

I've long wondered if Martin's going to do the "Yaaay Democracy" ending. It would make sense, given the trainwreck Westerosi feudalism has been, but democracy vs. mighty lords hasn't really been a clear theme of the story. Maybe in Dany's arc, to an extent, but even then she reigns as supreme monarch. 

 

I don't know. I think it'll be a somewhat open ending. Most likely a "back from the brink" ending where almost everything is destroyed in the White Walker catalysm, but a few characters survive. I imagine that Bran will be doing the epilogue -- a good way to end it, given that he was the first POV character and his fall from the window essentially kicked off the whole story. He'd have the ability to "check in" on other surviving characters and give a recap of what happens after the apocalypse. I don't imagine he'll show us anything too far into the future. But maybe.

 

I also expect a new Long Night to fall over the world, even if it's only for a little while. The importance of the Long Night is not as pronounced on the show, but the visuals would be neat. And I really hope they give an explanation for it (and the weird seasons in general).

 

I'm also interested in the "White Walkers are not inherently evil" theory.

 

 

FUN GAME! Who do you think will survive or die in the end?

 

I think....

 

Spoiler

 

CHARACTERS WHO SURVIVE:

 

- Bran   (Fully merges with the Weirwood Net)

- Tyrion   (Some kind of well-respected public leader)

- Arya   (Remains an independent adventurer)

- Sansa  (The Lady of Winterfell / Queen in the North)

- Brienne  (First lady kingsguard)

- Gendry  (Discovers previously unknown continent after a severe navigational error while rowing)

 

- Jon  (REALLY IFFY about him; I think he'll either be king or he'll go out in some heroic sacrifice)

 

 

I'm expecting the rest to die. Yes, even Dany. I think she'll have some sort of tragic death right at the very end. She will probably die alongside her three dragons. I am mildly interested in the "Dany accidentally becomes a villain" theory, in which she ends up fighting the wrong people during the endgame due to how bull-headed she is. She's still convinced the Starks are evil evil traitors, after all. I expect to see her Targaryen madness get worse. But her Targaryen-ness is more evident in the books, so I'm not sure how they'll play it on the show.

[Jasi]

I've long wondered if Martin's going to do the "Yaaay Democracy" ending. It would make sense, given the trainwreck Westerosi feudalism has been, but democracy vs. mighty lords hasn't really been a clear theme of the story. Maybe in Dany's arc, to an extent, but even then she reigns as supreme monarch. 

 

This is intriguing me. Dany is a supreme monarch of course. But she has no dynastic heir. So if she does get the Iron Throne, how will it be determined who her successor is? Maybe this is where yaaaaay democracy comes in? Or maybe the person with the most dragons just automatically gets to rule.

[Twinrova]

The only thing Martin has said about the ending is that it's "bittersweet". I'm thinking whenever Dany finally gets to Westeros she finds King's Landing absolutely obliterated and most of Westeros in shambles due to all the fighting between all the families. She finally gets her birthright! But there's nothing of it left.

 

 

I kinda feel like Jon might survive, purely because it seems silly to kill him off and then bring him back just to have him die again, but idk. And I'm gonna say Sansa and Brienne survive because I want them to. So nyeh. >_>

[Delphi]

Right now I am taking it one week at a time. And my hope is that if Sansa doesn't get to shank Ramsey then I hope Brianne gets to destroy him. Because a woman taking him out would just feel right after all that if Theon isn't around to do it.

But if I had to consider farther into the future... I'm wondering if the Doom of Valyria will come swinging back somehow. Or just Valyria in general. Will they rediscover how to forge Valyrian steel somehow? Will the real cause of the Doom be revealed and now not only do we have white walkers (Ice) but whatever caused the Doom as well? (Fire)

And I'd like to know what Raegar was referencing about the Song of Ice and Fire. Is it a song that is already known or one he was to write? I want to know how it all fits in since we got a title drop and then immediately left it.

Also on the funny side, anyone else see Dany like a cat last episode? You know, like those asshole cats that put their paws on picture frames or a glass and you go ", Dany, no." and then they tip it over and shatter it anyways? Or did I just have asshole cats?

[Selena]

I HAVE MANY THEORIES ABOUT THE DOOM. And the Long Night. And the Others. And a lot of the really ancient elements about the world-building that surfaced in The World of Ice and Fire. Of course, every time I make up elaborate theories about shows/books they never turn out to be true, so I keep trying to rein myself in. I really like the background information in this universe, though.

 

I don't think they'll have the time or methods to really dive into the world's backstory on the TV show, but I hope Martin explores more of it in the texts. 

 

I would like to see someone go back to properly visit the ruins of Valyria -- either on the show or in the books. Or Asshai. Asshai is wild.

[Crimson Lego]

If anything I think Victarion will eventually end up exploring Valyria like Euron claims to have done in search of some ancient power to kill his brother. My guess is that Daenerys will already have left Meereen by the time he gets close or into the city, and Moqorro will then convince him to search for dragons or ancient power in Valyria.

 

 

Of course, Euron is probably on that ship and will just take whatever he finds; but right now, Victarion's the only one with reasonable distance and motive to go there.

 

I'm thinking whenever Dany finally gets to Westeros she finds King's Landing absolutely obliterated and most of Westeros in shambles due to all the fighting between all the families. She finally gets her birthright! But there's nothing of it left.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she were the one to do it - gets to King's Landing, people say 'no we've had enough war, go away with dragons' instead of the welcome she expects, and she razes the city to the ground.

 

 

 

===Also, new WoW excerpt out; Arianne POV http://www.georgerrm...inds-of-winter/

[Selena]

Episode was good. Poor Hodor. Funny, that had been a fan crack-theory once upon a time -- that his name came from a situation like that. 

 

The only part I didn't like was the White Walker origins. The "Children created the White Walkers to fight the First Men" was easily (in my opinion) the laziest and least interesting of all the White Walker theories. It was the theory that most easily translated on screen, however, as it required the least amount of additional information given to the viewer.

 

So I hope the writers went with the biggest fan theory, and that Martin will end up doing something completely different. Something bigger in scope, to fit the text's deeper backstory and world-building. The First Men and the Children had been at peace for quite a while in the books before the White Walkers showed up -- and they weren't at all present during the war itself. It also leaves huge questions about their behavior.

 

Unless it was, like, a fundamentalist sect of the Children who did it after the Pact. Even then. Terrible plan. 

 

 

/bookwhining

[Sir Turtlelot]

Hodor.  

[JRPomazon]

It's official, Bran ruins everything

[Twinrova]

Oh ew, I am disappointed with the time travel stuff. Time travel is such a boring and lazy way to explain stuff imo. This happened bc it happened!!! Yeah okay.

 

I'm with you on the WW origins, Lena. I would have liked to see them have some other motivation rather than just being weapons the creators lost control of.

 

 

I do have to say that Tormund being a lovesick puppy is pretty hilarious though. And I mean, despite not really liking the direction a few things have gone, I still thought this was a pretty good episode. And hey, no Ramsay and Sand Sneks, double points.

[Jasi]

Hmmmm, I thought it was like Bran trying out new powers, to control Hodor in the present while also still being in the vision in the past. Then he like accidentally discovered yet another power, accidentally warging into the past Hodor a little bit. And it was like the wires got crossed for a second, and Hodor was able to see his own death and self sacrifice, which freaked him out to the point where he had a seizure. Obviously this was all just kind of hinted at and not made explicit so that's just my interpretation.

[Delphi]

I really, really hope the origins of the white walkers/others ends up different in the books. From how they were talked about in the books and what GRRM has said I thought they were like the Children of the Forest and Dragons. Something that has always been a part of the world. Dragons being fire made flesh, the Children of the Forest being the forest, and the white walkers ice made flesh or something. Not a weapon someone else lost control of. It kind of makes the world feel a little bit smaller but that might just be me.

I feel like the actors did a good job with the Hold the Door thing. I'm iffy on the mechanics of Green seeing and all that. Just hopefully Bran will remember to update his security settings next time he logs into Weirwood.net.

And for Hell's sake can we stop just killing the dire wolves? Between the deaths of all of the Children of the Forest, The Three Eyed Raven, AND Summer, I feel like it kind of took away from Hodor's moment. It just felt like "Oh look. More gratuitous character death." TER? Sure. Some Children of the Forest? Okay. All of them plus Summer AND Hodor? I feel like it just kind of desensitized me by that point. Not every death has to be meaningful but just killing characters off because they're there I think messes with the ability of the audience to connect with the characters. The death doesn't mean anything no matter how much you pretty it up with drama if I didn't have time to care about the character.

Anyhow that's just my griping...

Favorite moment from the episode? When my husband yelled "Woah, unsolicited dick pic!" at that close up of the guy examining his junk.

[Selena]

Yeah, that's pretty much what happened. Some light time travel stuff is very much hinted at in the texts, in that some characters can possibly hear Bran "whisper" far below normal sounds, but there's been no past-warging. Probably another case of making something work for TV format. I agree that I don't want too much time travel impacting the plot, though. If Bran ends up being some omnipotent Old God who has "motivated" big past events, then I'll be disappointed. 
 
Tormund is a big dumb dog and he's adorable. 
 
 
 
 

 
I'm with you on the WW origins, Lena. I would have liked to see them have some other motivation rather than just being weapons the creators lost control of.

 
Yeah, there were about four interweaving theories that I really enjoyed about the nature of the Others / Long Night -- all of which tie in Dany, the Starks, and the Doom of Valyria.
 
 
Summary of those theories, for people who like theories. Warning: lots of stuff.
 

Spoiler

There's only one "origin myth" for the Long Night, and it comes from the region near Asshai, in far far eastern Essos. Before the Long Night, there was a civilization called The Great Empire of the Dawn. It is lightly implied in the text that they were the original dragon-riders. The last true ruler, The Amethyst Empress, was murdered by her brother. He founded/mastered blood magic  -- something considered an abomination. This first blood sin caused the Long Night, and "demons" emerged from the nearby wastes to destroy everything. There's even another Wall in the east, made out of black dragonfired stone.
 
The Long Night being triggered in Essos does make some sense, as Westeros was caught completely off-guard and the Children/First Men had been at peace for about 2,000 years.
 
The Others appear to eradicate anyone who is violating sacred natural law. They spare those who can prove that they are still following tradition. Namely, they spared the Rhoynar and the Children (at least until the latter started working with humans). 
 
So, theories:
 

• The Great Empire was the original dragon-riding civilization
• The usurper Emperor thought he was going to reestablish order with blood magic
• He killed his sister, stole the throne, and used her blood sacrifice to forge "Lightbringer," the first dragonsteel sword
• He starts to impose stern order on his subjects for the sake of peace
   
• In an effort to create loyal dragon-riders, the Emperor blood-binds dragons to loyalists. 
• He literally infuses people with "the blood of the dragon."
• This explains why there are rumors of abomination humans with lizard-like traits around the world
• It also explains the lizard-like stillbirths in the Targaryen line (more than just Rhaego)
• It also explains why Targaryens are half-sane and half-nutballs (hybrid blood)
   
• Blood magic is a natural abomination, and this is what causes the Others -- and their kin -- to emerge around the world
• Long Night falls
• The Others and their ilk are attempting to eradicate magical abominations, and spare anyone who proves they're still following sacred law
• The Rhoynar appease the Others by "singing the song of water"
• The Children appease the Others by "singing the song of earth"
• The First Men forgot their songs during their greed-fueled migration to Westeros, and are fucked.
• The Imperials are definitely fucked.
• Asshai, once their capital city, is left a toxic magical ruin.
   
• The Emperor fights the Others with his sword -- leading to the creation of the "Azor Ahai" myth
• There's a conflicting hero myth about a lady who saved the world.
• Potentially, she was a lady assassin who killed the Emperor. 
   
• In Westeros, Bran the Builder (the original Stark) joins the Night's Watch.
• He is sent to find the Children and acquire their aid + dragonglass.
• All of his companions die, but he finally achieves his goal via diplomacy with the Children.
• Later, when fighting against the Others seems pointless, he decides to try diplomacy again.
• Bran makes a pact with the Others.
• No more fighting, a Wall will be built, and Bran will marry the Others' queen
• ^ Last part actually an homage to original Welsh Arthurian myth, as Guinevere was originally a fay queen
• Starks are descended from the Others, thus their enhanced magical aptitude
• The original Ice was definitely an Others' sword
• This story was eventually twisted into the Night's King myth
   
• The Valyrians are descended from the dragon-blooded survivors of the Long Night
• Later, they reacquire dragons and build the Freehold
• They return to using blood magic (forging Valyrian steel, which apparently required the blood sacrifice of kids, etc.)
• The world was on the verge of another Long Night during the height of the Valyrians
• The Doom was a manufactured cataclysm meant to destroy Valyria before the whole world was fucked
• It worked, but the Targaryens escaped
   
• Targaryens preserve blood magic (Visenya, Bloodraven, etc.)
• Targaryens use dragons to conquer Westeros
• When the Stark King is forced to kneel, the Others are fuckin' pissed
• THE FIRE PEOPLE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ON THIS SIDE  >:c
   
• Dany more or less authorized the death of her sibling, stealing the "throne" from him
• Dany essentially uses blood magic to hatch her dragons, fueled by Drogo's sacrifice
• Dany is pretty much leaving a trail of blood and death and rape and burning wherever she goes
• She has good intentions, but still
   
• Dany is Azor Ahai; the one who fights the dark with a flaming sword and some blood magic
• Bran is the Last Hero, who goes north seeking aid from the Children
• Jon is the Night's King, who is vilified for trying to make peace with the "enemy"
• Arya is the lady assassin who kills Dany?!

 
Well, those are my favorites, anyway. But it does explain why Asshai, the largest city in the world, is a creepy ruin populated by shadowbinders and blood mages.
 
The Targaryens/Valyrians have been the bad guys all along, but we revere them because of their magic and power and dragons. Even though the mechanics behind those things are all fucking atrocious. 

[Veteran]

Last two weeks I thought were great, this week not so much, felt like two steps backward. Random thoughts from a non-book person:

Arya's back to getting thrashed, doubting killing people, hello previous season.
Kingsmoot already over, regicide apparently fine on Pyke, dude with 3 minutes screen time is King.
Dany riding with the Dothraki again made me wonder what happened to the first lot she convinced to follow her. Can't remember.
I don't know what the tree imp people are.
White Walker less-than-spectacular origin story done in 2 minutes.
Where is the tree? Because I thought the Wall kept the White Walkers at bay, or is that wrong? And if that's wrong, what's the hold up with the Walker invasion?
Max Von Treehouse already dead. Waste of casting.
Excellent boobs.
Penis.

[Delphi]

Poor Max. Gets cast and hyped up only to be killed, like, immediately. Looking at you, Force Awakens!

Oh well. I can go back to him ignoring me in Skyrim because I won't kill Parthuunax.

It was nice to hear Sansa calmly bitch out Littlefinger though. And the beardy Wildling being into Brianne is a funny background event.

[Twinrova]

So do you guys think they're gonna finally introduce Coldhands? Or maybe they'll just straight up use Benjen.. I mean, they gotta have somebody help Bran and Meera, there's no way they can get very far on their own.

 

 

I don't know what the tree imp people are.
White Walker less-than-spectacular origin story done in 2 minutes.
Where is the tree? Because I thought the Wall kept the White Walkers at bay, or is that wrong? And if that's wrong, what's the hold up with the Walker invasion?

 

They're the Children of the Forest. They were the original inhabitants of Westeros and then men came over from Essos and they fought a huge war and eventually made peace saying the CotF could have the forests and the men could have everything else. So I guess the CotF made the White Walkers to help them defeat the men or whatever but then they turned out too powerful and they need help reigning them in. Or whatever. SIGH. >:/

 

The tree is far north of the Wall. The Wall does indeed keep the WW at bay, but people think they're going to purposely let Bran escape south of the Wall and the brand on his arm will break the enchantment on the Wall allowing the WW to pass.

[Jasi]

Dany riding with the Dothraki again made me wonder what happened to the first lot she convinced to follow her. Can't remember.

 

they died off in various places, murdered here and there, but mostly in Qarth I think

[Selena]

The Bran-brand thing is creates a huge plot in that: If the White Walkers can bypass magical seals by putting a "mark" on someone, why in gods name didn't they brand some poor Night's Watch schmuck ages ago?  Why wait so long for any of this?

 

I don't precisely remember what happened to Dany's Dothraki. Some were killed in Qarth and by the Sons of the Harpy in Meereen. In the books, she still has her bloodriders and handmaidens and some civilians. In the show, they just sort of.... faded into the background and were written out in favor of Missandei / Grey Worm. A couple of the Dothraki character never died. They just vanished after Season 2 or Season 3.

 

 

 

And yeah, the Iron Islands are ridiculously stupid. Their whole history is full of stupid. It says a lot when I hate the world's equivalent of vikings. 

 

 

 

Sansa should have let Brienne kill Littlefinger right then and there. It's not like the Vale would've missed him, and he's just going to cause trouble later on. Then she could have appealed directly to Sir Royce for aid, who would've been inclined to help her for honor's sake. 

[Jasi]

The Bran-brand thing is creates a huge plot in that: If the White Walkers can bypass magical seals by putting a "mark" on someone, why in gods name didn't they brand some poor Night's Watch schmuck ages ago?  Why wait so long for any of this?

 

 

That part felt so Harry Potter to me, hahaha. Does Bran need to take occlumency lessons now? And yeah for now at least it feels like they wanted to have a dramatic WW fight, and then they were like "oh wait they said it was protected by magic, hmm I guess we need to find a loophole"