38 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

They're elves, what do you expect?

[joeymartin64]

Assuming Earth-like physics are in play

And why would we assume that? You can't just brush aside suppositions that explicitly hinge on magic and supernatural origin because Earth-like physics would cause them to not work/have unmentioned effects.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm not really assuming it, pay attention. I'm just saying if we do, holy shit that's an incredibly fucked up bucket of side effects.

And I personally like to think Hyrule is physics-compliant unless it's obviously magical, because Nayru's contribution WAS physics and the sciences and such.

[joeymartin64]

Fair enough. The flood was obviously magical, though, and I'm more than willing to assume that whoever enacted the flood (be that the Golden Trio or Hylia like we were tossing around a while back) would take some sort of precaution (also magical, probably) against the whole thing fucking the rest of the world over. I'm probably wandering into No Endor Holocaust territory at this point, but dammit, I like to think there's other stuff going on elsewhere in the world, and flooding unrelated lands just seems wrong if it can be avoided, which it can.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, it sure seems like that flood was Global, even if it didn't kill everyone. Phantom Hourglass still exists, yo.

Even if no one died from the Flood, the complete destruction of so much history and culture is completely unjustifiable, IMO, and makes the DT the 'better timeline'.

I just really fucking hate the DT's existence and trying to find moral incongruity with it, not so much demonize the Flood.

[joeymartin64]

All we see in Phantom Hourglass is that they were on a big stretch of ocean. That hardly means the entire world is flooded.

As for the history and culture, I think I should tread lightly there. I'm the dipshit that still thinks the flood subsides at some point, remember? In that case, I see knowledge of Old Hyrule's history and culture being brought forward by people who saw it firsthand (Deku Tree, Valoo, Jabun).

I think I see what you mean, though, and I think I remember a similar conversation shortly after the big reveal; that it's strange that the older games, and the ones that seem to lead Hyrule to its "Golden Age" only come about because the Hero of Time carks it. Doesn't seem right.

[MikePetersSucks]

All we see in Phantom Hourglass is that they were on a big stretch of ocean. That hardly means the entire world is flooded.

It does prove that the flood effected more than Hyrule. Obviously there's still land; New Hyrule exists; but any country that's atleast as low to the ground as Old Hyrule was seems to have been effected.

As for the history and culture, I think I should tread lightly there. I'm the dipshit that still thinks the flood subsides at some point, remember? In that case, I see knowledge of Old Hyrule's history and culture being brought forward by people who saw it firsthand (Deku Tree, Valoo, Jabun).

Yes, well, Split Timeline is canon and even if it wasn't, the Deku Tree existed in the forest, Jabu-Jabu can really only comment on Zora culture, and Valoo is a completely left-field deity.

I think I see what you mean, though, and I think I remember a similar conversation shortly after the big reveal; that it's strange that the older games, and the ones that seem to lead Hyrule to its "Golden Age" only come about because the Hero of Time carks it. Doesn't seem right.

Yea....so like, why does the Hero of Time fucking up lead to a much LESS destructive future?

[Fëanen]

Yea....so like, why does the Hero of Time fucking up lead to a much LESS destructive future?

My personal theory on the topic is that the Hero of Time was meant to partially fail (Awaken the Sages and die in battle) an the other two timelines are the aberrations rather than the default courses of events. In other words, rather than something weird causing the Hero to fail, something weird caused him to succeed. Still unexplained, but it does at least give a bit more importance to the DT and older games.

[joeymartin64]

It does prove that the flood effected more than Hyrule. Obviously there's still land; New Hyrule exists; but any country that's atleast as low to the ground as Old Hyrule was seems to have been effected.

Then Old Hyrule may simply be at a lower elevation than the area surrounding it, like we posited earlier.

Yes, well, Split Timeline is canon and even if it wasn't, the Deku Tree existed in the forest, Jabu-Jabu can really only comment on Zora culture, and Valoo is a completely left-field deity.

Yes, well, the DT is canon and some half-hearted faux-snarky retort goes here. I know. I've known for years. I just don't care. Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the patron deities knew about more than the places they lived; it just didn't come up all that much in-game. OoT's Deku Tree knew plenty about what was going on outside the forest, and the Spiritual Stones had been divvied out all over hell. There's obviously communication going on.

Yea....so like, why does the Hero of Time fucking up lead to a much LESS destructive future?

Fuckin' A, man.

[MikePetersSucks]

My personal theory on the topic is that the Hero of Time was meant to partially fail (Awaken the Sages and die in battle) an the other two timelines are the aberrations rather than the default courses of events. In other words, rather than something weird causing the Hero to fail, something weird caused him to succeed. Still unexplained, but it does at least give a bit more importance to the DT and older games.

So the Zelda universe is morally broken and thus it's not worth giving a shit about. I hope you're wrong because I personally find this offensively stupid.

It's like when FFXIII-2 revealed that the proper timeline was for everyone to die and the universe will unravel unless the error is fixed. Why not just put the controller down?

Then Old Hyrule may simply be at a lower elevation than the area surrounding it, like we posited earlier.

Yea, but that seems incredibly unlikely given that it's not land-locked by mountains or anything. The fact that only one side of Hyrule is desert region geographically proves that, at worst, it's at a slant (which it doesn't seem to be). If the east side were also lower than the surrounding area, it would ALSO be a desert.

Yes, well, the DT is canon and some half-hearted faux-snarky retort goes here. I know. I've known for years. I just don't care. Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the patron deities knew about more than the places they lived; it just didn't come up all that much in-game. OoT's Deku Tree knew plenty about what was going on outside the forest, and the Spiritual Stones had been divvied out all over hell. There's obviously communication going on.

Don't make me get Lex in here to talk about how trees can make landmass.

[SOAP]

Yea, but that seems incredibly unlikely given that it's not land-locked by mountains or anything. The fact that only one side of Hyrule is desert region geographically proves that, at worst, it's at a slant (which it doesn't seem to be). If the east side were also lower than the surrounding area, it would ALSO be a desert.

Hyrule has a desert because of patchwork geography. The lower elevation idea is just because it's easier to imagine Hyrule as being more like bucket getting filled with water than to imagine a global catastrophe.

Don't make me get Lex in here to talk about how trees can make landmass.

Please do. I'm totally mancrushing on him hard at ZI.

[Masamune]

I still maintain that Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland is post-TWW, taking place in flooded Hyrule. I feel the presence of the Great Deku Tree in a larger island version of the Lost Woods backs me up there! Trees can totally make landmass.

In fact, it occurs to me this is the only game we can fight over placement for now! Score!

[joeymartin64]

Hyrule has a desert because of patchwork geography. The lower elevation idea is just because it's easier to imagine Hyrule as being more like bucket getting filled with water than to imagine a global catastrophe.

Not to mention lolgeography.

Don't make me get Lex in here to talk about how trees can make landmass.

Eh. I don't really want to rehash that one any more than you do. Nobody's mind is going to change. I maintain, though, that as much sense as it doesn't actually make, there's still some backing for it, what with it being mentioned in the game and all. Still, if it doesn't sit right with you, fine, whatever.

[SOAP]

WAIT! HOLD THE PRESSES! I've got a theory. Well, more of fanwank speculation as it's unverifible but it might be reasonable.

Okay, so the common, most reasonable assumption is that the DT is either a "what if scenario" (or the true timeline and the other two are what-ifs, whichever) or a completely independent timeline that started deviating from the other two when they began to split. But what caused this deviation is what seems to be hard for people to get their haeds wrapped around.

Then there were certain things that didn't make sense. Like why is Twinrova alive in the ALttP era to revive Ganon when she gets killed by OoT Link before his final battle with Ganon? It's possible Ganon revived them before he was killed by ALttP Link but I find that answer, while reasonable, kinda unsatisfying. Then it hit me: How do we know the adult part of the DT happened like it did in OoT up until the final battle? Indeed, how do we know there even was an adult portion.

Consider this. When Link first pulls the sword from it's pedestal, Link is put into an induced coma for seven years until his body matured enough to hold the Master Sword. Why is that? OoT leads us to believe he was too young or that it wasn't his destiny yet. But TWW Link managed to pull out the sword as child with no problem, and if it wasn't Link's destiny to weild the Master Sword yet, then why did his call to adventure start when he was still a kid? And why is Rauru the sage that's the odd man out who stays in the Sacred Realm?

Now, what he never went into a coma and proceeded to face Ganondorf as a child with the Master Sword in tow. Link puts up a good fight, but Ganon manages to make the best of anyways. It turns out he is to young, but the Master Sword itself would not know that. All it ever seemed to care about is whether or not the person trying to pull it out of it's pedestal had heroic traits or not.

The Sages all awaken eventually but it's too late. In one last desperate bid to give Hyrule a fighting chance, even if it wasn't their Hyrule, Zelda instructs Rauru, to go back in time to before the events of OoT and to wait for the Hero to come into the Sacred Realm. On that day, he was to put Link into a coma and keep his body safe from Ganon's rule until the day came when Link's body was mature enough to fight in a fair fight with Ganon. Like the AT, the DT continues to exist while a new timeline is spun, with the hopes that things would turn out better.

Edited by SOAP, 23 July 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[Snow]

It's a good theory, but the problem is that Hyrule Historia suggests that the timeline doesn't branch off until Link's battle with Ganondorf by the end of the game. In other words, everything up until that point happens the exact same way as it does in OoT.

[Masamune]

That's actually the theory I came up with before we saw a fully formed theory for Hyrule Historia. It effectively was a 'third timeline'. Like in Back to the Future terms you could have three potential timelines:

- Marty McFly never travels in time, so his life remains unaltered (decline timeline)
- Marty McFly travels back in time, accidentally erases his own existence (adult timeline)
- Marty McFly travels back in time, preserves himself and changes present (child timeline)

The crux of the idea is that the Master Sword acted to prevent the "Decline Timeline" due to some ability to see what would happen if Link was allowed to grab the sword as a child. Thus proving that Fi is a pain in the ass even hundreds of years later. "Master, I predict a 80% chance you'll get your ass curbstomped if you face Ganon."

But like Snow said, the implication of it splitting off at the final battle kind of nixes that theory.

[SOAP]

It's a good theory, but the problem is that Hyrule Historia suggests that the timeline doesn't branch off until Link's battle with Ganondorf by the end of the game. In other words, everything up until that point happens the exact same way as it does in OoT.

True but HH is still vague and the whole process of Link being put to sleep for seven years after pulling the Master Sword seemed rather convenient, when TWW Link, also a child, had no issue pulling the sword. There doesn't seem to be an age limit in pulling it. It just seemed like someone knew that Link would lose so measures where taken to secret Link's body away so he could mature enough to fight Ganon.

Reviewing the HH, the only thing I'd revize in my theory is that a lot of events in the adult portion of OoT still happened, only seven years too soon.

With the DT being the original timeline, I'd assume that Link left the Temple of Time as Master Sword wielding child. Ganon still has Link under observation and hasn't attcked Hyrule just yet but it is possible the Sages had awakened in response to the Triforce being disturbed and have already retreated to their respective temples to go pray or whatever. Link find Zelda as child and the two go to follow through with Zelda's plan but, Ganon, one step ahead, kidnaps Zelda and uses her as bait. Link storms the castle and the three pieces resonate much like how it occurs in OoT, only Link is still a child. The final scene might actually be more akin to TWW's final battle with Ganon only being interested in knocking LInk around into submission to retrieve his part of the Triforce.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Not a bad idea SOAP, the only real issue with that theory is that the same circumstances could not possibly be in place. Seven years worth of chaos couldn't happen all at once.

However, you did mention something that had already been on mind for some time now. This explanation does affect the placement of OoX. I've just posted another thread to discuss this issue.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's a nice fanfic theory. Unfortunately it runs into the same problems I originally complained about (no in-game support, etc.)

Still, I like it, and I wouldn't mind people using it for their timelines AS MUCH.

[SOAP]

Not a bad idea SOAP, the only real issue with that theory is that the same circumstances could not possibly be in place. Seven years worth of chaos couldn't happen all at once.

However, you did mention something that had already been on mind for some time now. This explanation does affect the placement of OoX. I've just posted another thread to discuss this issue.

Just seen the other thread.

@ Both you and MPS: You I know the theory is not perfect and total fanfic. What I'm more concerned with is if it makes sense within the context of OoT and it's relationship to the DT. Things such as: Would Zelda make a last bid to create another timeline, even if her Hyrule would still be doomed? If Link never goes to sleep for seven years would he immediately try to confront Ganondorf? Would he know where to look? What would Ganon's reaction be? Would he react sooner? Would Zelda come out of hiding sooner? Things like that.

[MikePetersSucks]

And on that basis, I admit I like it.

My problem is that the DT is a complete and utter ass pull, so really there's no way for a fan to justify it. :l

[Masamune]

I like the practicality of it, even ignoring the official timeline. So as a fanfic idea, it's handy for even those who are kind of dismissing Hyrule Historia. Which is rather nice, because we can go ahead and scoot FS/FSA into the DT where they belong, while shaking our heads disapprovingly at Nintendo's placement of them. I never liked trying to justify the 2D games as being part of the Adult or Child timeline because they didn't fit at all. Maintaining their original chronology with the Imprisoning War/Ocarina of Time is a very attractive idea.

Continuing off this idea, I think the DT would play out something like this:
Link immediately gets defeated after pulling the Master Sword out. Zelda goes into hiding, but eventually is captured. All the shit that Ganondorf does in the seven years from the Adult Timeline still happens, it's just Link never shows up to defeat him on account of dying as a kid. At that point I would suppose Zelda managed to unite the sages and remaining Knights of Hyrule to oppose Ganondorf, as we see in the Imprisoning War account. Ganondorf has the whole Triforce, but he's trapped in the Sacred Realm/Dark World. All fanfic, naturally, but more elegant than a simple 'oh Link died, whoops'. It's the same basic idea, with all the same events, just with Link's death moved up seven years.

[SOAP]

I like the practicality of it, even ignoring the official timeline. So as a fanfic idea, it's handy for even those who are kind of dismissing Hyrule Historia. Which is rather nice, because we can go ahead and scoot FS/FSA into the DT where they belong, while shaking our heads disapprovingly at Nintendo's placement of them. I never liked trying to justify the 2D games as being part of the Adult or Child timeline because they didn't fit at all. Maintaining their original chronology with the Imprisoning War/Ocarina of Time is a very attractive idea.

Continuing off this idea, I think the DT would play out something like this:
Link immediately gets defeated after pulling the Master Sword out. Zelda goes into hiding, but eventually is captured. All the shit that Ganondorf does in the seven years from the Adult Timeline still happens, it's just Link never shows up to defeat him on account of dying as a kid. At that point I would suppose Zelda managed to unite the sages and remaining Knights of Hyrule to oppose Ganondorf, as we see in the Imprisoning War account. Ganondorf has the whole Triforce, but he's trapped in the Sacred Realm/Dark World. All fanfic, naturally, but more elegant than a simple 'oh Link died, whoops'. It's the same basic idea, with all the same events, just with Link's death moved up seven years.

To add to that, I believe that after Ganon's seal, Zelda seeing the extent of damage caused because Link had died too soon and feeling personally responsible for his death, she uses time travel in a similar fashion to OoT's adult ending. I imagine Rauru is instructed to wait and set things up in the Temple of Time so that Link would be incapacitated and secreted away as soon as he pulled the Master Sword, including adult sized clothes for when Link wakes up in an adult body. This is similar to how Link goes back in the child timeline to war Zelda of Ganon's evil and how touching the Master Sword is what allowed him to gain access to the Sacred Realm to begin with. Basically all three timeline are mirroring each other as if the Zeldas of each timelines were working towards a "perfect" timeline were she doesn't fuck up royallly. Turns out third time's the charm, with her not doing anything at all. However, I can totally see even CT Zelda feeling guilty that Ganon's failed execution led to the Twili being subjected to his presence in the Twilight Realm and turning Zant into an evil SOAB, so it's posible a fourth timeline could exist where they just straight up kill Ganondorf as soon as he comes to the caste to swear fealty to the King. But then that sparks a war with the Gerudo and it seems Zelda can never get any luck.

Edit: Actually this latter part of my theory could work even with the common belief that the DT originates from a GAME OVER scenario during the final battle with Ganon. I just prefer the Link dies as a child route to expalin why Twin Rova is alive. Of course that could be explained away as Ganon reviving them some unspecfied time between OoT and ALttP as some sort of failsafe in case he were to be killed. I dunno. I think it would have been easier to have OoX in the CT even if ALttP absolutely needs to belong in the DT. Heck OoX follows TP a lot more smoothly and it can be aruged that Twin Rova did not die in that timeline as we know verifiably that the events in CT OoT future deviated greatly from the AT.

Edited by SOAP, 24 July 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[joeymartin64]

And on that basis, I admit I like it.

My problem is that the DT is a complete and utter ass pull, so really there's no way for a fan to justify it. :l

Yeah, that's the thing. You can come up with ways to kinda sorta justify stuff (and you're doing a better job at it than they did, that's for damn sure), but we're no better off in the "having to make shit up" department than we were without the official timeline. Part of the reason I don't adhere to it.

Edited by joeymartin64, 24 July 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Masamune]

Oh, I don't know about that. I think that's half the fun. Sure, they've sloppily thrown these games together onto a puzzle board and the pieces don't quite fit right. But that's where fandom comes in. We come up with wacky ideas on justifying stuff the creators aren't going to ever address. It's how it works in any other fandom. It's just that Zelda games are twice as lazily strewn together and we're used to having a lot more freedom arranging the pieces.

[SOAP]

The thing that I don't get is if people aren't exactly nuts off the walls for the official timeline then why aren't people as passionate about making their own timelines anymore. I would have thought that would have sparked new interest in more creative timelines if creator intent wasn't what people hoped for. The way I saw it as them saying "Well this is basic gist of what we think the order of games go. It's not perfect but it's out there for people who keep asking about it." I didn't see it as "This is how the games go and that's final and there's no nothing you can do about so stop bitching." Obviously like Masa said, Nintendo wants us to come up with our ideas because that's part of the fun and nothing about the official timeline lead me to believe that this has change. They even said it was subject to change.

[TheAvengerLever]

Well, to be honest, timeline theorizing was dying anyway. Especially on this site.

[SOAP]

That's because people at LA are getting old and have jobs and kids and shit.

That and ZeldaLegends website ain't what it used to be. I tend to forget LA actually has a website sometimes.

[MikePetersSucks]

The problem with making fan timelines is that they were atleast trying to be quasi-canon. The wind is taken out of the sails when the response to every timeline is now "nope, you're wrong, fuck you."

[joeymartin64]

For me, the "passion" sort of fell by the wayside gradually as it slowly sunk in that the developers don't really give a shit about creating a unified mythos out of the series. To me, that was almost the whole fun of it, trying to piece together the grand scheme, so to speak. It eventually did sink in that there was no grand scheme (part of this realization being the split timeline cop out, as I saw it), so I basically decided "Fuck it" and started building a bullshit headcanon that just sounded cool to me. The awfulness of the HH timeline just made me feel all the more justified in that decision. What MPS said is also a pretty big factor, though I would add that that was something that had been happening for some time before HH dropped.

lolofficialtimeline