186 replies to this topic

[arunma]

Yes, that's right! The fundie Baptist is again trying to take away everyone's fun.

I'm posting because I am very disturbed at how the world celebrates Christmas. Today in homes around the world, children, Christian and otherwise, fall asleep on the eve of Christ's First Advent expecting an old man with a beard to come to their homes and grant them their hearts' desires. Does anyone see the problem with this? I see a few.

First of all, Christmas was created by the church to celebrate Christ's First Advent. Santa Claus, on the other hand promotes the idea that children should be given material pleasures in exchange for good behavior throughout the year. This is contrary to Christianity. In Christianity, sinners are supposed to be forgiven, provided that they repent. They aren't supposed to recieve a lump of coal. And good deeds should be done because they are the will of God, not with the expectation of recompense. Many people accuse us fundies of trying to take away the joy of children. Well, all I can say in our defense is that children should have joy from doing God's will. They should never be joyful in materialistic, capitalistic pleasures.

Secondly, Santa Claus isn't real! Oddly enough, Santa's greatest supporters are the liberals, who disbelieve in all that "fantasy" like the virgin birth and the resurrection. I find it hypocritical to discourage belief in the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life, but to then perpetuate the clearly false notion of Santa Claus in children's minds.

Thirdly, the gift giving tradition in general, and Santa Claus in specific, are idolatry. Many people claim that having faith in Santa can lead a child to faith in Christ. Well, if I told Christians that they should tell their children about Buddha on Christmas, they would be up in arms. They would realize that I was trying to force a false religion on them. How is Santa Claus any different? The only difference is that he was created by Europeans instead of Indians.

Consider this. Santa Claus claims to know the minds of children, and to know who is good and who is evil. Doesn't that sound like he's trying to take the place of Jesus? The Bible says,

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (Revelation 1:7-8)

Santa essentially wants to judge the hearts and minds of children. Well, the psalmist writes this of God.

"He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his truth." (Psalm 96:13)

Santa makes many of the same claims. Just who does this guy think he is?

Some people say that I'm just trying to ruin Christmas for all the children. No offense to those children, but I think they could do without the X-Box and DVD player. Most people, children and adults (especially the adults) think about no one but themselves on Christmas. As some popular columnists have written, I hope that this Christmas, people will look away from the north pole, and towards the manger in Bethlehem.

[Oberon Storm]

Dude, just let the kids have their fun. I fail to see where Santa becomes idoltary. It isn't like they pray to Santa, worship Santa, give sacrafice to Santa. It just all in good fun. And isn't just the kids. I look forward to getting my mom something special. Sure I could do it any other day. But, I dunno, Christmas just gives the gift a little more meaning.

[arunma]

First of all, if you're not a Christian, you shouldn't celebrate Christmas (I don't know if you're a Christian or not, but I'm referring to non-Christians in general). Jews are rightly offended when Christians and other non-Jews try to celebrate Passover. Muslims would probably see it as mocking if Americans perverted Eid-Al-Fitr into a shopping holiday. Likewise, many of us Christians are offended by what Christmas has turned into.

Secondly, I don't mean to sound stern or hard-edged, but with all due respect (no, really), "dude just let the kids have their fun" isn't a valid point. Letting kids have their fun is what has turned Americans into materialists. American children are spoiled, letting them have their fun is the last thing we should do. Christmas is about the joy of Jesus Christ, not any joy that is derived from materialism.

By the way, why does Christmas make the gift-giving more special? Where is Christ in all this?

[arunma]

By the way, Santa is idolatry because believing in him constitutes believing in a supernatural being other than God.

[Oberon Storm]

I said "Dude, just let the kids have their fun." because you are blowing it way out of proportion. I guess my whole point is so what?

Christmas might give the gift more meaning because, duh, it's christmas. Jesus' supposed birthday. Christ has everything to do with it. My mom loves Christmas. She loves getting gifts for people. She loves getting Nativity (sp?) Scenes. She has like 50 of them now.

[arunma]

So why do you give gifts on Christmas? Shouldn't you go to church and worship God instead?

[Selena]

Hm. Well, Christmas has become more of a media holiday than a religious one, I assume. I'm not Christian, or anything remotely close to it, but I still celebrate it. Why? *shrugs* I was raised to. It was just something that you did every year. Besides, with all the advertising, influence from big businesses and the grand ol' tv, it's kind of hard to avoid it. I suppose morally it's wrong to take part in a tradition that's meant for a certain group, but like I said... for most of us, the holiday was always there. Neutral to religion, even. At least for me.


Besides, even if I'm not Christian, the rest of my family is (although not devout enough to go to church).... so it'd be a little weird to just stand off in the distance when everyone else is giving gifts to one another. I'd feel guilty I wasn't giving them anything.


As for Santa? Psh. Who cares? Everyone grows up to realize he's fake anyway. Some far sooner than others. It's just some silly thing like the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

[davogones]

Divorce Christmas from Christianity and everything should be a-ok. Christians can celebrate Jesus' birthday in whatever manner they choose, and whoever wants to celebrate the traditional Christmas may do so in whatever manner they deem fitting.

This isn't the Holy Roman Empire. There isn't a Church that can impose a certain type of Christmas on everyone. Christmas has evolved into a holiday all its own. So what if Santa Claus appears to be replacing Jesus as the central figure? It's not up to Christians to impose their beliefs on others. Christians ought to be celebrating Jesus' birth, but that doesn't mean everyone else ought to as well. For Christians, there is no contradiction in celebrating the secular form of Christmas and the Christian aspect as well, as long as everything is kept in its proper place.

Besides, the greater part of "Christian" holidays were stolen from pagans and converted to suit the church's purposes. So who is being idolatrous by celebrating them? I say bring Christianity back to its true, pre-pagan roots. Abolish all "Christian" holidays and bring back the Jewish ones!

[Jasi]

They weren't stolen. Christmas is celebrated 'cause of Jesus being born, Easter is celebrated 'cause of Jesus being raised again. How are these things stolen from Judaism?

[arunma]

Besides, the greater part of "Christian" holidays were stolen from pagans and converted to suit the church's purposes. So who is being idolatrous by celebrating them? I say bring Christianity back to its true, pre-pagan roots. Abolish all "Christian" holidays and bring back the Jewish ones!

We all know what you think!

But seriously, I wouldn't mind if they changed the holiday to Santamas. After all, at least the early church had the decency to actually change the pagan holidays' names (except for Easter, which is strange since Pascha/Easter is the most important holiday on the Christian calendar).

Hm. Well, Christmas has become more of a media holiday than a religious one, I assume. I'm not Christian, or anything remotely close to it, but I still celebrate it. Why? *shrugs* I was raised to. It was just something that you did every year. Besides, with all the advertising, influence from big businesses and the grand ol' tv, it's kind of hard to avoid it. I suppose morally it's wrong to take part in a tradition that's meant for a certain group, but like I said... for most of us, the holiday was always there. Neutral to religion, even. At least for me.

I think you just made my point for me. Like I told Dave, perhaps the non-Christians and "secular Christians" (the non-practicing ones) should change the holiday to Santamas and leave the month of Advent alone.

[Oberon Storm]

Or just leave it. Santamas is a dumb nam.

[wisp]

Meh. Belief in a supernatural being other than God does not constitute idolatry, at least in my mind. I believe that there are "supernatural" beings/spirits all over the place. In fact, what do you call angels and demons if not supernatural beings? The main point to me is that I do not worship these other beings. That's where I draw the line.

I think it's perfectly fine to let kids believe in Santa Claus. Most parents don't teach the part about a lump of coal anyway, and if they do, then I'm sure they wouldn't actually follow through with it. I say, as long as they ("they" being Christians) go to church on Christmas Eve, or do some sort of private remembrance of Jesus' birth, go have fun with your Christmas presents.

It also doesn't bother me to see non-Christians celebrating the holiday.. I mean, the whole reason that the church decided to observe Christmas in December is so it would coincide with the Pagan sabbat of Yule. They figured they might gain a few converts that way. It's not a big deal to me at all... I mean, Jesus was born in the summer, anyway.

Side note: I don't think Christianity really *has* any "pre-Pagan" roots. Pagans (druids, etc) were around way before Jesus was born. And the two religions aren't too far off from each other when you get right down to it. Many Pagan traditions make perfect sense and fit right in with the plan that God created. Anyway, I've gotten off the subject.. I'm shutting up now.

[Alakhriveion]

Free Jolly Jenkins!


No, seriously. If you're going to lie to kids, at least include a lesson. Free Jolly Jenkins.

Oh, and I have a friend who celebrates a secular X-Mas, where the God of Avarice, Santa Claus, leaves gifts at the tree-alter, and it works fine.

[davogones]

Just to clarify...

I'm saying that the Catholic Church, during the middle ages, incorporated pagan holidays and "Christianized" them. I am suggesting that Christians should divorce themselves from such traditions, since they don't have much to do with true Christianity anyway. If we are to have holidays, they should either be Jewish in origin, or at least free from outside influences.

When I said Christians should return to their "pre-pagan" roots, I meant their original Jewish roots, before the church incorporated pagan traditions. I wasn't referring to any supposed ancient roots that go back to before paganism. I was referring to the time before Christianity was corrupted by pagan influence.

[arunma]

OK guys, any connection between Christmas and paganism is irrelevant here, because I'm speaking to those who claim to be Christians. For whatever reason, the Catholic Church instituted Christmas as a Christian holiday, and that is why we should keep it Christian.

Besides which, I like the Catholic Church, so...

[davogones]

No, it's relevant. Your argument is that we should give Santa Claus the boot since he obscures the Christian aspect of Christmas. My argument is that ANY holiday with non-Christian influences obscures the true Christian message. So I do think this is relevant.

I don't agree that Christians ought to celebrate a supposedly Christian holiday just because the Catholic Church instituted it once. If anything, I think that Christians ought to celebrate only what the earliest, Biblical Christians celebrated. Of course, even back then there was dispute about what kinds of traditions Christians should follow, given that more and more non-Jews were converting to Christianity. I don't remember exactly how this issue was resolved. But I expect if you go back and read Paul's letters on this topic, you'll find your answer about what to do with Christmas.

In any case, I already said that Christians can keep Christmas Christian if they want. I agree with you that any Christian who celebrates Christmas ought to emphasize the Christian roots of the holiday. However, I also feel that it is not obligatory for all Christians to celebrate Christmas, for the reasons I've given above. I think there are better ways to celebrate our religion than the way proscribed by the Catholic Church.

[Kazi]

Dude, leave Santa alone.

I think that Santa was thought of to make the holiday more cheerful and something to look forward to. if all Christmas was about was praying all the time, it wouldn't be a very good holiday. in fact, not a lot of people would probably celebrate. in case you haven't noticed... the puritan age is done.

we can all admit that Christmas was a very big deal when we were kids. we all stayed up in anticipation for presents. even if we were hard-taught Christian children, we would hardly understand all the religious affairs because we were so small.

besides, Christmas is a joyous day... it's about caring and giving, right? presents. it's the clearest and most obvious way to make that point across.

why does a rabbit go across the world hiding chocolate eggs in people's yards? who knows. but it made the country more festive and together, and that makes the world at least that much happier. if it were all about prayer and Christ, many people, again, wouldn't bother to celebrate. even foreign people who don't understand Christ celebrate Christmas because it's a happy time of giving and celebration.

none of us has forgotten about Christ and his gift to the earth... a lot of people in my neighborhood have nativities, and one person even has a giant "Happy Birthday Jesus!" sign. we all still remember the birthday of our saviour, we have just integrated a different idea of happiness with it to make it more recognizable and fun. you make it sound like Christmas is all about Santa and presents. well, it's not, and deciding that Santa is a horrible make-believe lie to kids is pretty arrogant to the country's tradition.

this country is founded in Christian beliefs, but we're not revolved around it. as more people came to live here, more religions were introduced, so we can't make everyone pray on Christmas morning as a national holiday. I'm all against foreigners coming here and making us turn upside down and backwards not to insult them because of their religion, but at the same time, we can't shove Christianity in their faces and make them celebrate.

[Alakhriveion]

besides, Christmas is a joyous day... it's about caring and giving, right? presents. it's the clearest and most obvious way to make that point across.

Like I said, if you have to lie to kids, include a lesson, make it meaningful.

For those of you not familiar with the story of Jolly Jenkins, it goes thusly:

The Original Santa Claus was a man named Saint Nick Jenkins, who would go from house to house every year bringing books, and wisdom. This was, of course, totally unacceptable to the powers that be, so The Man had him put in jail on a false murder charge. He was immortal, so they couldn't kill him, but they did create the NEW Santa, the chubby white man who keeps us shackled by greed every year when he feeds our addiction for cheap plastic crap.

FREE JOLLY JENKINS!

[arunma]

In any case, I already said that Christians can keep Christmas Christian if they want. I agree with you that any Christian who celebrates Christmas ought to emphasize the Christian roots of the holiday. However, I also feel that it is not obligatory for all Christians to celebrate Christmas, for the reasons I've given above. I think there are better ways to celebrate our religion than the way proscribed by the Catholic Church.

Dave, I think we're on different pages here. I certainly don't think that Christmas in specific, or the Christian calendar in general, is obligatory. My church does happen to observe the Christian calendar (yes, we're still Baptists). So we celebrate the month of Advent, as well as Passover week. But I do think that secularists should keep their beliefs away from Christian holidays.

I think that Santa was thought of to make the holiday more cheerful and something to look forward to. if all Christmas was about was praying all the time, it wouldn't be a very good holiday.

What's wrong with praying all the time? I don't know about you, but I pray several times a day, and I like it just fine. Don't you look forward to going to church?

People who don't enjoy these things shouldn't call themselves Christians.

in fact, not a lot of people would probably celebrate. in case you haven't noticed... the puritan age is done.

What you're saying amounts to a statement that because God is no longer in fashion, we should not worship him with the same fervor and zeal as our ancestors. Is that what you're saying?

we can all admit that Christmas was a very big deal when we were kids. we all stayed up in anticipation for presents.

And do you realize that all along, we were being indoctrinated with materialism and capitalism? Not to get on a side-discussion here, but this money-minded indoctrination is part of the reason that President Bush is in office.

even if we were hard-taught Christian children, we would hardly understand all the religious affairs because we were so small.

I know a Greek Orthodox Christian who's five year old daughter recites the Lord's prayer every night. He even mentioned that the other day, his little evangelist was screaming across the street to a friend that Jesus died for her sins. This isn't really a rare instance of an theological prodigy-child. Kids in first grade used to tell me about Jesus all the time. I didn't understand, because I wasn't brought up in the faith. Likewise, Christian children who are brought up with Santa instead of Jesus will not have a very good understanding of Jesus for much of their lives. Santa does nothing but rob Jesus of glory on Christmas.

Besides that, children shouldn't be waiting expectantly for presents. As God says, "My grace is sufficient."

besides, Christmas is a joyous day... it's about caring and giving, right?

Every day should be about caring and giving. That's a primary message of the Gospel.

presents. it's the clearest and most obvious way to make that point across.

How does an X-Box or a wide screen television promote the virtues of caring and giving.

why does a rabbit go across the world hiding chocolate eggs in people's yards? who knows.

I do. The rabbit represents fertility (ever heard the phrase, "breeding like rabbits?"). The eggs also represent fertility. In fact, the name Easter is a Gaelic version of the false goddess Ashera, or Ishtar (who in Mesopotamia was known as a sex and fertility deity). Early Christians actually called Easter, Pascha (which means Passover in Greek). In fact, I prefer to refer to it as Pascha as well. Pascha is one of the holidays that wasn't just invented by the Catholic Church; because we know that Jesus really was crucified during the Passover. However, the Europeans had a festival to Easter around the same time, and when they became Christians, they just neglected to change the name. The name itself isn't really a big deal, but rabbits and Easter eggs have nothing to do with the celebration of Christ's resurrection. In fact, Pascha is a more important holiday on the Christian calendar than Christmas.

if it were all about prayer and Christ, many people, again, wouldn't bother to celebrate. even foreign people who don't understand Christ celebrate Christmas because it's a happy time of giving and celebration.

Does the fact that secular Christmas promotes happy hour make it a good thing? Christ Jesus declares, "People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:27)

But Jesus also prescribes a solution. As he said to the church in Laodicea, "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see." (Revelation 3:18).

That's why I encourage all Christians to give up Santa Claus, feasts of capitalism, and expensive gifts, and to purchase things from him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. What's more important: earthly treasure? Or treasure stored in heaven?

and one person even has a giant "Happy Birthday Jesus!" sign.

Personally I find that highly irreverent. But it's a lot better than secular Christmas.

you make it sound like Christmas is all about Santa and presents. well, it's not, and deciding that Santa is a horrible make-believe lie to kids is pretty arrogant to the country's tradition.

Christmas is all about Santa, as well as capitalism and greed. Remember "Joy to the world?" Well, the newer version of the song removes all the religious references and replaces them to "joy to you and me." Many of the new Christmas songs and movies are about Santa, not Jesus. How has Christmas not become all about Santa?

this country is founded in Christian beliefs, but we're not revolved around it.

Actually, the important point is that this country is not founded in Christian beliefs, nor should it be. Mixing religion into the state only destroys religion. Separation of church and state liberates the church so that we Christians are free to build our lives around religion. Jesus also said to the Laodicean church that because they were lukewarm, he was about to spit them out of his mouth. The last thing God wants is sunshine Christians. Being a Christian is about keeping your faith even if it means being thrown into a Roman colosseum. It's wrong to focus on your faith only one day a week. In fact, it would be better to simply not be a Christian at all.

as more people came to live here, more religions were introduced, so we can't make everyone pray on Christmas morning as a national holiday.

Great, then we apparently agree on something! I want Muslims to fast on Ramadan, and I want Jews to get so drunk on Purim that they can't tell the difference between "cursed be Haman" and "blessed be Mordechai" (as the Talmud commands, in case you were wondering). I don't want anyone's holidays to be secularized.

I am categorically against forcing anyone to pray on Christmas morning. In fact, I wouldn't mind if it wasn't a national holiday. On Christmas, I want those of us who call ourselves Christians to remember Jesus' birth, and to attend Christmas services if possible. I want all Christians to read the nativity story on Christmas morning with their families. And I don't want non-Christians to celebrate a secularized version ofl Christmas.

I'm all against foreigners coming here and making us turn upside down and backwards not to insult them because of their religion, but at the same time, we can't shove Christianity in their faces and make them celebrate.

This is a slightly different topic, but what's wrong with foreigners? "Foreigner" doesn't mean "non-Christian." Many Chinese, for example, are Christians. And of course, many Europeans are not. Culture has nothing to do with religion.

[Kazi]

well I didn't mean it to be a big debate. it's not like I'm right all the time. different strokes for different folks. you didn't have to point out every clause of my post and tell me why I'm wrong. it makes me feel a little bad.

I'm just saying that you should lighten up a bit.. it's a holiday, you know? if you sit around fretting over what Christmas should be, rather what what it is, there's no enjoyment.

I know from experience that it's best to enjoy life and work with what you have. if you don't like how we celebrate Christmas, fine. go have your own fiesta. it's just better to take things how they are and love it. now if it's morally wrong, I can see doing something, but this is over your opinion. people are happy with the way it is now.

not everyone who buys a Christmas present is a materialistc pig. believe it or not, people have hearts. could it be... they're getting gifts for people because it's a nice gesture? what? humans actually showing signs of care for one another? no~, it can't be.

and btw. my name is never capitalized.

[arunma]

Sorry if I made you feel bad. But I do want to show that I'm actually paying attention to what you write. And I'll stop capitalizing your name, since you said that it shouldn't be capitalized.

I'm just saying that you should lighten up a bit.. it's a holiday, you know? if you sit around fretting over what Christmas should be, rather what what it is, there's no enjoyment.

Ever hear the joke that Baptists don't have premarital sex because it might lead to dancing? Yes, we fundies are against a lot of fun things like dancing, sex, parties, excessive drinking, and materialism. Now I'm not saying that other brands of Christianity (such as the liberal variety) are any less valid. But at the risk of boasting, I take Christianity rather seriously, and so I don't think that a form of enjoyment is good if it is contrary to Christian doctrine.

I know from experience that it's best to enjoy life and work with what you have.

Working with what you have is fine, but what do you mean by "enjoy life?" can you enjoy it even at the expense of following God's laws?

if you don't like how we celebrate Christmas, fine. go have your own fiesta. it's just better to take things how they are and love it. now if it's morally wrong, I can see doing something, but this is over your opinion. people are happy with the way it is now.

Aren't festivalsof capitalism morally wrong? Besides that, please note that I'm not addressing non-Christians who ignore Christmas completely. I'm addressing people who celebrate Christmas, especially Christians. To the non-Christians I say: please don't hijack our holy day. To the Christians I ask that if you're going to celebrate Christmas, please keep it holy. Buying a DVD player for your kid is not holy.

not everyone who buys a Christmas present is a materialistc pig. believe it or not, people have hearts. could it be... they're getting gifts for people because it's a nice gesture?

Some gifts are nice. But seriously, how many Americans rescue a Serbian refugee for Christmas? Most people just by worthless, expensive items (oxymoron intended).

[Selena]

What's wrong with praying all the time?  I don't know about you, but I pray several times a day, and I like it just fine.  Don't you look forward to going to church?
 
People who don't enjoy these things shouldn't call themselves Christians.

Gah, arunma, that was rude. Just because people don't pray as often as you doesn't mean they are any less Christian than you are. With that kind of statement, I wouldn't be surprised if you just ended up turning people away from it. >.<


And people aren't worshipping "Santa". Santa is fake and everyone ends up realizing this. Do people pray to Santa? Do they build temples in his honor? No! At least, I really hope not because... that'd be kinda weird. I'm preeetty sure most people still think of Jesus on this holiday.

And really, to get non-Christians to form their own holiday and call it something other than Christmas... it's not happening and it never will. Like I said, I'd feel extremely guilty if I didn't give anyone a gift for Christmas when everyone else around me is. It's a part of western culture, no longer private to Christianity.

Materialistic... sure. Everything is nowadays. But why stomp on a holiday that brings families together, regardless of their religion or backgrounds? How is that a bad thing? Why ruin all the holiday cheer? I think you should consider it a blessing that people even bother considering someone else for a change. Materialistic meaningless gifts or not, you feel like someone loves you enough to give you a slight bit of attention.

If you fundie Christians want to just stick to bare minimum and avoid the stereotypical Christmas, fine. Do so. I'll applaud you. But don't ruin it for everyone else and expect everyone to change. Times have changed, the holiday has evolved. What is done, is done.

[Custommagnum]

Most Holidays have been secularized in this age.

Arunma's right, Christmas shouldn't have been secularized, and Santa shouldn't have been introduced.

And for Chanukah, the whole "Menorah burned for eight days although there was only enough oil for one day" crap shouldn't have been introduced either. Chanukah was about liberating Jerusalem by killing the tyranical rulers that occupied it.

Of course, someone decided to give children gifts on this holiday, so it had to be changed. Can't let children know that we like celebrating the days of killing people, now can we.

I'm just glad that Passover hasn't become like Christmas and Chanukah.

On another note: Islam hasn't made any of their holidays gift giving ones. Go them.

[Alakhriveion]

Personally I think that we should be more materialistic on Christmas. To me gift-giving is a celebration of wealth. Because we are a wealthy country we can afford to celebrate Christmas so extravagantly. I don't care about the whole 'selfless' aspect of Christmas.

I'm probably the last person who should be allowed to say it, but how predictable.

Of course, someone decided to give children gifts on this holiday, so it had to be changed. Can't let children know that we like celebrating the days of killing people, now can we.

Why not? Thing is, all gift-giving is totally invented. I guess there's nothing wrong with piggy-backing our made-up gifting day with someone else's, save me a good deal of money.

And people aren't worshipping "Santa".  Santa is fake and everyone ends up realizing this.

The same could be said of god.

Do people pray to Santa?  Do they build temples in his honor?  No!

Been to a Shopping Mall for a while?

Materialistic... sure. Everything is nowadays. But why stomp on a holiday that brings families together, regardless of their religion or backgrounds? How is that a bad thing?

Because it celebrates Baby Jesus. It's a little dishonest, like the Evil Ninja of Holidays. That is the price you pay for playing Monoploy with an Eskimo of the Night.

Why ruin all the holiday cheer?

We talk about Politics and Religion. Ruining people's good spirits is what we do. Truth Blows.

If you fundie Christians want to just stick to bare minimum and avoid the stereotypical Christmas, fine. Do so. I'll applaud you. But don't ruin it for everyone else and expect everyone to change. Times have changed, the holiday has evolved. What is done, is done.

Probably. So? We're talking about this in an abstract sorta way.

well I didn't mean it to be a big debate. it's not like I'm right all the time. different strokes for different folks. you didn't have to point out every clause of my post and tell me why I'm wrong. it makes me feel a little bad.

Sorry, this is sorta an emotional minefield. See my disclaimer?

[Fizzbit]

First of all, if you're not a Christian, you shouldn't celebrate Christmas

WRONG. Christmas was originally a PAGAN holiday. Christians RAPED it, just like they raped Easter and Halloween, which were also Pagan Holidays. Easter was turned into a day of Resurrection, and Halloween was a day of mischief and demons after the Christians had their way.

I celebrate Christmas only for the FAMILY part in it, not for the Religious part. Christian or not, no one can really escape its clutches. You get caught up in the holiday sales whether you like it or not, and people everywhere say "Merry Christmas" to you as you pass by. So why not celebrate it, but not in the way that everyone expects? Hell, I know CHRISTIANS who don't celebrate Christmas.

Christmas was originally celebrated as a Solstice, a time of merriment. Now it's just the day when a supposed idol was born. Whoo, everyone has a birthday. Do people rejoice and spout sermons on George W. Bush's birthday? On my birthday? On your birthday? No.

I can't help but get caught up in Christmas, whether I celebrate it or not. So, I choose to celebrate it as a time of merriment with my family, regardless of religion.

And with Santa Claus, he was based off of an ACTUAL SAINT who gave shoes and food to Children and the less fortunate. So, Jesus was a saint too, no? Why deny the attention of one Saint so another can get all the attention? Jesus was born on Christmas, according to Christianity, like I said, everyone's got a birthday. Saint Nicholas actually gave the people items and tried to make them feel just that much more comfortable. Therefore, Santa Claus IS real, we've just renamed his origin. Yes, today, he's non-existant.

But you know what?

To kids, Santa Claus is that secret charity (Christian-funded or not) that seeks out toys and clothing and non-perishable food items to make sure they and theif families have a good and happy holiday; he's the parents that take a child's most desired item, say it's too expensive, and put it under the tree while they are asleep on Christmas Eve. He may not be real, but his ideals are. Children would MUCH rather have food, clothing, and maybe a little used teddy bear to play with than sit through a Christmas Sermon. It doesn't matter if that child benefitting from the Charity is Muslim or Atheist or Jewish; Santa Claus is what represents the true meaning of Christmas, not a Religious Figure that they may not follow.

[arunma]

Just wanted to point out that you're taking this out of context. The point wasn't that having fun is bad, but that you should always be prepared for for the coming of the Son of Man, because he comes unexpectedly. That whole "thief in the night" deal.

Actually Tanaka, that verse served my purposes perfectly. My point is not that fun is bad. Fun is just fine. The epistles say (somewhere, though I can't remember) that we should enjoy the things that God has provided for us. So I ask: did he provide us with DVD players, HDTVs, and video games? Or did he provides us with the more subtle pleasures like our families?

I'm just glad that Passover hasn't become like Christmas and Chanukah.

True, but stay alert. I'm sure that the Jewish Passover will be next. Remember, the Christian Passover has already been littered with Ashera eggs, though most people who celebrate Pascha still remember the true meaning. The moral of the story: don't let them take away your Passover!

On another note: Islam hasn't made any of their holidays gift giving ones. Go them.

True, they seem to be good at guarding their religion.

Gah, arunma, that was rude. Just because people don't pray as often as you doesn't mean they are any less Christian than you are. With that kind of statement, I wouldn't be surprised if you just ended up turning people away from it. >.<

I'm not saying that people have to pray as often as me to be Christians. I am no benchmark. There are Christians who are far more religious than me, and Christians who are less religious than me. My point is that if you don't like practicing the religion, don't be a Christian. Remember, Jesus would rather you be hot or cold than lukewarm. If you're cold, at least he can correct you.

I'm preeetty sure most people still think of Jesus on this holiday.

I can think of at least nine people I know who don't. And I wasn't even trying very hard.

And really, to get non-Christians to form their own holiday and call it something other than Christmas... it's not happening and it never will.

The African Americans (the ones who don't celebrate Christmas) did it: it's called Kwanza, and it's only been around for about forty years. Hindus have also created celebrations to their gods in December. Secular people can do it too.

Like I said, I'd feel extremely guilty if I didn't give anyone a gift for Christmas when everyone else around me is. It's a part of western culture, no longer private to Christianity.

I'm not buying any Christmas presents for anyone; I told others not to buy presents for me too. I only have to buy a "present" for a secular friend of mine who already got what he calls a "Christmas" present for me. I'm still giving it to him early, and making it clear that it's not a Christmas present. This doesn't seem too hard.

Materialistic... sure. Everything is nowadays.

All right! We agree on something.

But why stomp on a holiday that brings families together, regardless of their religion or backgrounds? How is that a bad thing?

Families can get together all they want. I just don't want them to call it a Christian celebration unless they are practicing Christians. People get together all the time for secular holidays like Thanksgiving.

Why ruin all the holiday cheer? I think you should consider it a blessing that people even bother considering someone else for a change. Materialistic meaningless gifts or not, you feel like someone loves you enough to give you a slight bit of attention.

Well as I said, the fact that they're doing all this for Christmas, while ignoring Jesus, is offensive. They should make up a different holiday.

But don't ruin it for everyone else and expect everyone to change. Times have changed, the holiday has evolved. What is done, is done.

The problem is that secularists are ruining it for us by celebrating Christmas. It's like a slap in the face.

[Alakhriveion]

WRONG. Christmas was originally a PAGAN holiday. Christians RAPED it, just like they raped Easter and Halloween, which were also Pagan Holidays. Easter was turned into a day of Resurrection, and Halloween was a day of mischief and demons after the Christians had their way.

Sorry, no. The Solstice marked a holiday, and Christmas was the Vatican's competition. Solstice:Mac::Christmas:Windows.

To kids, Santa Claus is that secret charity (Christian-funded or not) that seeks out toys and clothing and non-perishable food items to make sure they and theif families have a good and happy holiday; he's the parents that take a child's most desired item, say it's too expensive, and put it under the tree while they are asleep on Christmas Eve.

No. Santa Claus is greed. Like I asked before, been to a Mall lately?

Children would MUCH rather have food, clothing, and maybe a little used teddy bear to play with than sit through a Christmas Sermon.

I'd also rather be Killing Whitey than posting about Christmas on the Internet. There's something to be said for restraint.