234 replies to this topic

[CloneWarrior]

Alright, so here are two pics from the French video of the pages explaining the Hero of Time's defeat (I think).

http://www.majhost.c...on/timeline.png
http://www.majhost.c...n/timeline2.png

They're in the video around 9:00.


So, I don't suppose anyone can make out to enough to attempt a translation.

martinDTanderson, I don't understand your explanation.

There is no difference between the Adult Timeline & the Failure Timeline up until Link either loses or wins against Ganon. What exactly does Zelda "intervening" have to do with anything?

[martinDTanderson]

Weirded me out too. I'm guessing it's because they don't seem to be actually retconning anything. It's just annoying to have a "founding" Zelda that only accounts for two of the Zeldas we meet. But I guess they fixed the issue of Zelda being named Zelda already anyways.

people keep saying that when they've done no such thing. NOTHING about SS implied Princesses would always be called Zelda, nothing at all. The fact we don't even see a Princess Zelda in SS shows that we haven't even had the first Princess yet. Moreover, pushing the ACTUAL legend of Zelda to the very end of only one of the timelines? What the flying funk? What was the Prince thinking?

"Gee, you know how a hundred generations of Princesses have passed and they're all called Zelda... And, not that I'd know in universe, but the destiny to be called Zelda exists on other timelines, not just as tradition but actual law it would seem from Tetra's name change upon discovering her heritage... And the fact we've never had a Princess not called Zelda since the founding of our nation... LET'S MAKE A DECREE THEY SHOULD ALL BE NAMED ZELDA FROM NOW ON UNTIL MY SISTER AWAKES WHICH WILL ONLY AFFECT ONE MEANING tWW NOW MAKES NO SENSE AND THERE ARE TEN TIMES AS MANY ZELDAS OUTSIDE THE NAMING TRADITION THAN THERE WILL END UP BEING WITHIN IT. HERP DERP."

Seriously. tWW all but insisted that the naming tradition existed prior to OoT, and now we know that the whole 'you're really Zelda' thing was nothing more than the deranged ramblings of an insane old man.

Way to ruin the legend.

You forget, Tetra was born Princess Zelda, and was given the Tetra identity by her mother when she was young.

martinDTanderson, I don't understand your explanation.

There is no difference between the Adult Timeline & the Failure Timeline up until Link either loses or wins against Ganon. What exactly does Zelda "intervening" have to do with anything?

Well CloneWarrior, what I am saying basically, is the "Link is defeated" timeline could be the "Pre Destined" timeline, or the "What should have happened" timeline. But Zelda being young and naive, getting Link involved using the Ocarina of Time, and the Master Sword is what caused things to change, and made these new two timelines.

These new timelines were never meant to happen, which is why the Gods had to intervene in them, and why those events which are supposedly pre-destined - did not happen!

With the Adult Timeline, no hero emerged when Ganondorf escaped the Sages' seal...
With the Child Timeline, Ganondorf was banished before he could get all 3 parts of the Triforce...

Edited by martinDTanderson, 23 December 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[River Zora]

You forget, Tetra was born Princess Zelda, and was given the Tetra identity by her mother when she was young.

This is never said, or even implied. If anything it implies the opposite that Tetra has been Tetra since birth.

The options are-
1- Tetra is born and given the name Zelda, but then changed to hide her identity from Ganon- the naming tradition must in this case exist or else she could have just not been called Zelda to begin with, and Ganon would not need to find Zelda, merely the next Princess whomcould be named anything. The fact the flood was hundreds of years ago, Tetra is a young girl, secretly named Tetra, and Ganon is loking for Zelda, means that by Tetra's birth the naming tradition existed.

2- Tetra is born as Tetra, but upon knowledge of her heritage she must change to Zelda in order to be a princess proper. Ergo, to be a princess you must be Zelda, therefore the naming tradition already existed.

[CloneWarrior]

Well CloneWarrior, what I am saying basically, is the "Link is defeated" timeline could be the "Pre Destined" timeline, or the "What should have happened" timeline. But Zelda being young and naive, getting Link involved using the Ocarina of Time, and the Master Sword is what caused things to change, and made these new two timelines.

These new timelines were never meant to happen, which is why the Gods had to intervene in them, and why those events which are supposedly pre-destined - did not happen!

But as I just said, the timelines are exactly the same until Link battle Ganon. The only reason this happens at all is because Zelda gets Link involved. Nothing is changed except that Link loses.

[Hooded Warrior]

Well seeing as how OOT Link gets killed in one of the timelines, I guess we now know that the Triforce of Courage doesn't give it's owner special powers unlike it's counterpart the Triforce of Power which makes Ganondorf unkillable.

Edit: The best part is that no one will ever be able to use that old Miyamoto quote that said OOT-LOZ-AOL-ALTTP ever again.

Edited by Hooded Warrior, 23 December 2011 - 09:37 AM.

[Fin]

it does so give link special powers.

[Tri-Enforcer]

This is sort of an anti-climatic ending to the whole timeline debate. I thought that maybe the timeline would be explained in a series of games starting with Skyward Sword or something like that. The fact that the timeline is being revealed in a special book is not the way I thought we would all discover the true chronology of the Zelda games.

I also have a slight problem with the the part about Link failing in OOT. Of course this results in what happened in the A Link to the Past backstory. It appears that the sages and knights are still successful in sealing Ganon away into Dark World/Sacred Realm--without the HERO'S help! So what's the point of Link if Ganon can still be sealed without the Hero's help?!

However, I will say there was a set back in the fact that Ganon took the entire Triforce instead of only the Triforce of Power, which explains why Ganon had the entire Triforce during ALttP. In Ocarina (from our perspective) Ganon was only able to take the Triforce of Power and was sealed with it. So maybe because of Link's failure (hypothetical failure since WE don't experience Link failing in OOT), Ganon was able to take the ENTIRE Triforce thus resulting in the Seal/Imprisoning War mentioned in the ALttP backstory. I think much of this is a cop out to resolve plot holes and poor story telling for a franchise that begin with not much an emphasis on story. But hey I still love The Legend of Zelda!

NOTE: I always use to maintain that OOT was not the event in the ALttP backstory, because of Ganon having the entire Triforce in ALttP, when he only had Triforce of Power in OOT and the sages are called wise MEN in ALttP and all clearly look human. So this sort of explains why there was a difference in the OOT 'Seal War' and the Seal War we read about in ALttP. I guess because of Link not accomplishing his mission, he doesn't awaken the sages that WE know of in OOT and instead some other sages and the Knights of Hyrule had to finish the job.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 23 December 2011 - 10:10 AM.

[Smertios]

Anyone has the translation of the scans yet? I'm still finding the whole FSS part very strange. I mean, really? TMC/FS-FSA instead of TMC-FS/FSA? That makes no sense...

[River Zora]

Anyone has the translation of the scans yet? I'm still finding the whole FSS part very strange. I mean, really? TMC/FS-FSA instead of TMC-FS/FSA? That makes no sense...

It does SCREAM of a third party desperately trying to stick to Aonuma's words. According to the lore tMC/FS just can't actually be the case. FSA's intro all but completely refutes it. We'll just have to wait and see. Or see what an interview with Aonuma says about the whole thing. There must be one coming up.

[Tri-Enforcer]

You shouldn't think of the 3rd timeline as a "what if" or "link is defeated" situation, and more like the way things were predestined to be.

Take away the Adult and Child timelines and you have a consistent timeline which involves the notions of destiny and pre-destiny according to legend.

Ganondorf was destined to obtain the Triforce (OoT), and Link was destined to defeat him and claim it back(ALttP).

Now look at where Zelda intervened in OoT and "screwed things up". Her actions broke the predestined path, and caused two timelines which deal with the consequences. One where Ganondorf obtained the Triforce of Power as some kind of "divine prank", and one where no hero emerged to counter the threat at all.

In both scenarios, the Gods were forced to intervene either with floods, or light spirits. Which is against their idea of being hands off deities. After all, once the world was created, they left behind the Triforce and Hylia as a sign of prosperity and hope for all people.

__________

In a funny way, Hylia and Demise are balancing forces. Hylia gave up her mortality to obtain the Triforce and use it for good, while Demise achieved a form of immortality in his quest to obtain the Triforce to use for ill.

But Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, and A Link to the Past all seem to have a pre-destined goal. SS sets the thing in motion. Demise's curse is bound to the Triforce. As long as it exists, Evil will emerge to try to claim it. And Hylia set it in motion that a Hero will be found to fight that evil.

Ocarina of Time enforces this, with the need for balance of spirit in order to claim the Triforce.

A Link to the Past tells us that when ever the Evil emerges to claim the Triforce, a Hero will always emerge to fight it.

The other timelines are reactions to destiny being changed. The hero that will always appear, didn't. Evil did not claim the full Triforce, only part of it.

That's sort of like Terminator. In the first 3 movies they were trying to prevent the apocalypse and rise of the machines while saving John Connor, because that's what they thought they were supposed to do. But it turns out that's the way things were supposed to have happened anyway. As long as John Connor stayed alive he would defeat the machines in the future head on as opposed to tampering with time.

So maybe they should not of marked the 'what if' timeline as 'link fails' but rather as 'what was supposed' to have happened anyway. After all, the prophesy always maintained that a hero would rise when evil comes about. OOT Zelda manipulated a hero for her time because she didn't see a hero arising as the prophecy spoke of. So she took upon herself manipulate a hero because she played to much into the prophecy. But in essence there wasn't supposed to have been a 'Hero' of OOT's time period, just as there was no hero during the great flood.

[TheAvengerLever]

Ehh, to play devil's advocate it was more than Zelda who thought that a Hero had been called. Otherwise, what does the Deku Tree's cryptic speech mean? Why is Link having dreams about Ganondorf?

[Masamune]

So Ganon revived in LoZ. So that makes FSA the only reincarnation of Ganondorf. Awkward...

[Tri-Enforcer]

Ehh, to play devil's advocate it was more than Zelda who thought that a Hero had been called. Otherwise, what does the Deku Tree's cryptic speech mean? Why is Link having dreams about Ganondorf?

Maybe it's because he's destined be the saving hero in the other two alternated realities, but not in the reality where he 'fails'. I don't know, but I will say that the reveal of the timeline certainly has not destroyed debate and theorizing of other unexplained things.

[FDL]

Well, I'm sure more will be explained in the section that breaks down all the games and how they fit. But yeah, there's still some unanswered questions. Like what the Hero of Time did after MM, which I still hope they do a game about even though I know it'll probably never happen.

[Billy Goat]

Agh I don't really understand the "what-if" failure timeline. Is Link's death supposed as he's an adult? Or a child?

What I was thinking was that Link opens the portal to the Sacred Realm and then he just never comes back...and the failure timeline is just another alternation of the child timeline. But I don't think that's what the book intends to say. Any thoughts on this? I'm a bit confused.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Agh I don't really understand the "what-if" failure timeline. Is Link's death supposed as he's an adult? Or a child?

What I was thinking was that Link opens the portal to the Sacred Realm and then he just never comes back...and the failure timeline is just another alternation of the child timeline. But I don't think that's what the book intends to say. Any thoughts on this? I'm a bit confused.

Instead of Nintendo saying that Link 'failed' in the 'what if' timeline, they should of just left it as Zelda never bothering Link to get involved with a time travelling journey. But I would imagine that even if Zelda doesn't get Link into the mix, he would of found someway to get involved anyway(because he has Courage), but ends up failing without Zelda's timely guidance (Wisdom).

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 23 December 2011 - 02:09 PM.

[ganonlord6000]

So we officially have three splits? I actually like that idea. It allows all of the original intents for the classic games to occur, and it allows the newer games to occur in their own timelines. Not to mention it confirms that TMC is before OOT, which is the only place it could go. And the best part is that Nintendo can make new Zelda games that occur on all three timelines. This reminds me about what I heard about the timeline as of OOT. The timeline was pretty much set at that point, then the Oracles and TWW happened. I'm guessing that the only reason Nintendo gave us the timeline is because the next couple of games are going to completely screw with us. It'll be TWW all over again. Unless they're completely screwing with us here. What are the odds of that? I'm guessing about 90%.

On a side note, I like the fact that Legends Alliance is this active because of this, possibly combined with whatever is going on at ZI. I can't remember it ever being this active since...well, since I first joined this site.

[SOAP]

Agh I don't really understand the "what-if" failure timeline. Is Link's death supposed as he's an adult? Or a child?

What I was thinking was that Link opens the portal to the Sacred Realm and then he just never comes back...and the failure timeline is just another alternation of the child timeline. But I don't think that's what the book intends to say. Any thoughts on this? I'm a bit confused.

Instead of Nintendo saying that Link 'failed' in the 'what if' timeline, they should of just left it as Zelda never bothering Link to get involved with a time travelling journey. But I would imagine that even if Zelda doesn't get Link into the mix, he would of found someway to get involved anyway(because he has Courage), but ends up failing without Zelda's timely guidance (Wisdom).

I think the reason they said Link failed is that Link's involvement is still required in rescuing and awakening the Sages, who have all fallen captive of Ganondorf's evil, and bringing the Triforces pieces to Ganondorf in order for him to claim the full Triforce. Ganondorf still had a unbalanced heart, remember that? He still had to gather the other two with the crests. He got a hold of Zelda. He just needed Link. Note this does not mean Link is killed, though for simplicities sake they might as well say he was, only that the Triforce of Courage was extracted from him, in the same way Ganondorf managed to extract it from Link in TWW. Making OoT's game over scenario in the final battle canon is pretty much a requirement in order to lead into ALttP and match the SW. The only thing it doesn't explain is how the King becomes involved (He sends out the Sages in the SW but I think it's implied his dead by the second half of OoT if IRC) and the Knights of Hyrule (presumably the Knights of Hyrule could have been a bunch of soldier or even common folk who, inspired by Link's sacrficial courage, stepped up and beat Ganondorf into submission while the awakened Sages did their thing.)

[FDL]

Well, judging by the ZL translation of the bulk of ALttP's story, it was actually a family of knights as opposed to simply being Hylian knights. Maybe it'll shed some light on all that in the Downfall of Hyrule section of the book, but if we want to talk "original intent" they seem to be a specific prestigious clan of knights as opposed to some commoners fighting under Link's banner. But it's hard to say how much was retconned considering making OoT into the leadup to the IW in this way already changes what we were told about the IW.

[SOAP]

Well, judging by the ZL translation of the bulk of ALttP's story, it was actually a family of knights as opposed to simply being Hylian knights. Maybe it'll shed some light on all that in the Downfall of Hyrule section of the book, but if we want to talk "original intent" they seem to be a specific prestigious clan of knights as opposed to some commoners fighting under Link's banner. But it's hard to say how much was retconned considering making OoT into the leadup to the IW in this way already changes what we were told about the IW.

A family of Knights, huh? They could have been knighted afterwards in honor of their courage. I also think the Knights of Hyrule have something to do with the knights of the Kinght Academy on Skyloft. Their descendants could be commoners and soldiers whose courage awakened after Link failed. I guess a much simpler solution would be a cavalry of sorts that remained hidden during OoT (possibly on a mission in another country) and did not sure up until the last minute. In OOT's Adult Future, Link won, so they were not neccessary, hence their absense. But if he failed, they come just in time to slay Ganon and his army after he gains the Triforce. It's sorta strange though, why didn't they come in TWW's backstory. Did the flood happen too long after OoT where the Knights Bloodline was too thin?

[FDL]

Well, I have no idea if the same terms are used in the Japanese version as well, but towards the end of the game Daphnes claims the Knights of Hyrule "couldn't hope" to assail Ganon's Tower in the events of TWW's backstory. So maybe they were around but at that point they were incapable of facing Ganon, he had gathered too much power. Hell, maybe the Knights helped capture the Demon Thief version of Ganondorf in TP's backstory as well. Complete speculation of course, but if they existed in the two Ganon-ruled timelines I'd imagine they existed in the child era as well. But I suppose it's also possible what you said, that they weren't really big a deal until the Hero of Time fell in one timeline. I dunno, I doubt it'll be totally explained but maybe the book will at least mention the Knights and give us a sense of what their deal is.

Edited by FDL, 23 December 2011 - 11:13 PM.

[SOAP]

Well, I have no idea if the same terms are used in the Japanese version as well, but towards the end of the game Daphnes claims the Knights of Hyrule "couldn't hope" to assail Ganon's Tower in the events of TWW's backstory. So maybe they were around but at that point they were incapable of facing Ganon, he had gathered too much power. Hell, maybe the Knights helped capture the Demon Thief version of Ganondorf in TP's backstory as well. Complete speculation of course, but if they existed in the two Ganon-ruled timelines I'd imagine they existed in the child era as well. But I suppose it's also possible what you said, that they weren't really big a deal until the Hero of Time fell in one timeline. I dunno, I doubt it'll be totally explained but maybe the book will at least mention the Knights and give us a sense of what their deal is.

That all sounds logical to me. I had forgotten about Ganon's Tower in TWW. It looked pretty battle worn, as if Hyrule fought back and attempted to storm Ganon's tower, essentially bring to fight to him instead of just waiting around for a hero to appear. It actually makes the Hylians look a lot braver in their attempt as opposed to everyone just huddling in some mountian cave while their kingdom flooded. Some must've fought back and who else but the Knights of Hyrule?

Dammit! I really like this three-split timeline now.

Edited by SOAP, 24 December 2011 - 12:42 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

I do as well. I just wish people would stop calling the "failed timeline" a what if.

It just makes sense. Link fails, and we have confirmation on that in Alttp's manual, seeing as there is no mention of the Hero. There's no What If to it. It happened.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's being called a "What If" because there's no in-universe reason for this timeline's existence, like the Adult and Child timelines where an actual plot event divided time. This timeline is based on the idea that Link lost, but he DIDN'T, technically, so by it's very nature it's a What If.

[FDL]

And ALttP's manual doesn't necessitate Link dying at all, OoT was not originally envisioned as telling the tale of the IW only if the player gets a game over and there are still plenty of disparities between what's said in the two games even if Link fails and gets his Triforce stolen. This hardly solves all problems.

[CloneWarrior]

And ALttP's manual doesn't necessitate Link dying at all, OoT was not originally envisioned as telling the tale of the IW only if the player gets a game over and there are still plenty of disparities between what's said in the two games even if Link fails and gets his Triforce stolen. This hardly solves all problems.

While ALttP's backstory still doesn't exactly match the "Link fails" ending of OoT, it does match what we actually see in ALttP. They needed to reconcile Ganon having the whole Triforce and being in the Dark World. Everything else can be chalked up to legends being changed over time.

[SOAP]

Exactly. Ganon having the full Triforce and there not being a Hero to wield the Master Sword are two very important details and where the hardest to reconsile OoT as the Seal War. The Triforce thing was the hardest to reconsile because we see Ganon in possesion of the whole thing in ALttP. For the longest I had the SW as it's own thing, totally seperate from OoT, possibly some event that happens shortly after Ganondorf gets revived somehow after TP in the CT. With this, OoT still remains ALttP's prequel.

[FDL]

Eh, I think that's not necessarily such a great thing though. The actual connection between OoT and the IW was never that strong anyway, so I don't think it was necessary to try and preserve the connection. Also, if they were really so dead set on making ALttP a direct sequel to OoT then they should've done something different with The Wind Waker's story. And not introduce the giant inconsistency with what Triforce pieces Ganondorf has in OoT. Now it kind of begs the question how Zelda was still around to seal Ganon if he had the whole Triforce and had killed her protector. In general, it was described in OoT as though they needed Link to fight alongside them if they were to have a prayer of sealing Ganon. I guess we'll see exactly how it all went down when more scans of the book are put up.

Not to say I completely dislike this idea. While a lot of it doesn't sit right with me, at least it sorta proves Link is not destined to win, there's a chance he'll lose even if he never actually has. It ups the stakes a little more, at the very least. I'm still mostly glad this book was released, even if I don't like every decision that's been made about the timeline. Though I have a feeling after everything's been scanned and translated by people I'll be burnt out on Zelda for a little while.

Edited by FDL, 24 December 2011 - 10:38 AM.

[CID Farwin]

I WAS RIGHT??!?!??!!!??!?!?!?!??

Well, on the right track, anyway. I'm not sure if I should be elated or infuriated. It really bugs me that the old games are the 'what if' timeline, but I suppose it's better than trampling on the lore even more to attempt to fit them in.

Concerning the "sleeping Zelda" issue

Spoiler

It could be taken in Wind Waker that "you are really Zelda" refers to the fact that she's a reincarnation of Hylia. This would go the same for the Zeldas in other games, and why they all have the same name. The Sleeping Zelda of Zelda II would be the incarnation of Hylia, and the naming tradition would be to honor her. This would mean that the Zelda of the first game is the exception (since it's kind of hard to get reincarnated when you're still alive) and would explain why she split the Triforce of Wisdom rather than using it.

I don't particularly like it since it really tramples over the original intent of the first games, but at least it (sort of) makes sense. In fact, that pretty much sums up how I feel about this timeline (and the direction Nintendo's going with the series as a whole.)

Honestly it feels like they couldn't figure out a good way to deal with the old games and the direction they want to take the series, so they made the third timeline "so we can do whatever the heck we want."

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 December 2011 - 11:19 AM.

[Showsni]

It's being called a "What If" because there's no in-universe reason for this timeline's existence, like the Adult and Child timelines where an actual plot event divided time. This timeline is based on the idea that Link lost, but he DIDN'T, technically, so by it's very nature it's a What If.

Hey, you could just as easily call the other branches the What Ifs. There's nothing that says the good ending of OoT is the canon one - we can just as easily look at it as Link does fail in OoT, everyone who couldn't master energy ball tennis with Ganondorf saw the true ending of the game, and the Child/Adult splits are both What Ifs.

What they have done is openened up a hole can of worms with the rest of the series. If we can view the bad endings in any game as being possibly the true endings, where would it end?

Well, I for one am now going to say that Link never woke the Wind Fish. After seeing what the Nightmares had to say, he decided to save Koholint by letting the Wind Fish sleep forever. He's still living happily there with Marin. Canon! Simply switch your gameboy off after defeating DeathI and before playing the song of the sirens!