234 replies to this topic

[Beno]

I have a lot to say, but I want to wait until all information is available to be sure. Too many people are jumping the gun with theories before we have the translation. Though from what we've seen so far I highly suspect that the explanation for the third timeline will be totally unsatisfactory and leave a lot of gaps. Even the explanations so far, for things we COULD infer reasonably from the games, are very sparse and bare-bones, and require a bunch of speculation to make any sense. And this is something they've never even hinted at before.

I do want to get in on this naming stuff before we get something shitty. At first I was thinking Downfall Timeline or something, because I remembered seeing that as one translation of that section of the book. But really, I suppose Classic Timeline would suffice.

Edit: OH! Better one: Imprisoning War Timeline.

The three timelines are:
Period of the Hero of Time (Child Era)
Period of the Hero of Time (Adult Era)
Period of the Decline

[Masamune]

Seems tricky, since it's 'what if Ganon was genre savvy?' as a basis for a timeline. Having the ALttP outcome be the 'original timeline' where no time travel shenanigans were involved seems the most appropriate. And to clarify, I guess this would mean Link would have been allowed to wield the Master Sword despite his young age and not be flung into the future. Which is still a 'what if', but seems better linked to the other two.

Link sleeping for seven years is not time travel.

Okay. Link's consciousness traveling back and forth is time travel. So what? That's just semantics. Either way, my point is tracing all the three timelines back to one incident (the Master Sword being drawn) rather than branching off a bunch of 'what ifs?' that could lead to an infinite number of split timelines.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm just pointing out that Link can perfectly well lift the Master Sword and whatnot without causing Time Shenanigans, allowing Adult Link to fight Ganondorf and fail.

Which is significantly different from theorizing that he caps a kid's ass and manages to break into the Sacred Realm on his own.

[Beno]

Not sure if someone mentioned this here, but I honestly like the idea of LoZ/AoL being a "what if" of the Oracles, if Link lost and Ganon was revived. That's the only other game (that's been made) that I can see going after a "what if" Link loses in the games.

[SOAP]

I agree. If you're gonna kill timeline theory, do so with a massive troll. What a 25th anniversary gift, eh?

A massive troll perhaps, but killing theorizing outright? Hardly. It think it did the exact opposite. It settled some the oldest debates that have been plaguing theorists for years and gave everything fresh to talk about. It's more like the theorizing community got a big restart and everyone gets to start from clean slate. Tabular Rasa and all that. It's refreshing actually. I mean just look at all the activity it's brought us. Of course if you just want to be a negative Nancy and look at the bad side of everything then sure.

Edited by SOAP, 22 December 2011 - 09:18 PM.

[Beno]

Knight of Hyrule on ZU just posted this:



Someone flipping through the entire book! 3 way timeline 100% confirmed!

[Smertios]

A massive troll perhaps, but killing theorizing outright? Hardly. It think it did the exact opposite. It settled some the oldest debates that have been plaguing theorists for years and gave everything fresh to talk about. It's more like the theorizing community got a big restart and everyone gets to start from clean slate. Tabular Rasa and all that. It's refreshing actually. I mean just look at all the activity it's brought us. Of course if you just want to be a negative Nancy and look at the bad side of everything then sure.

I agree with this. The impact this will cause will probably be similar to Blue Swamp. A lot of people will quit theorizing, the rest will accept the current timeline and continue theorizing from it...

[SOAP]

That's interesting... it seems the first FS is now retconned as TMC's direct sequel with the same Link and Zelda. At least that's the impression I got. It was group with TMC much in the same way PH was grouped with TWW and Oracles was sandwhiched between ALttP and LA.

A massive troll perhaps, but killing theorizing outright? Hardly. It think it did the exact opposite. It settled some the oldest debates that have been plaguing theorists for years and gave everything fresh to talk about. It's more like the theorizing community got a big restart and everyone gets to start from clean slate. Tabular Rasa and all that. It's refreshing actually. I mean just look at all the activity it's brought us. Of course if you just want to be a negative Nancy and look at the bad side of everything then sure.

I agree with this. The impact this will cause will probably be similar to Blue Swamp. A lot of people will quit theorizing, the rest will accept the current timeline and continue theorizing from it...

And just like Blue Swamp, I feel really good about this timeline. The only thing that bugs me is FS's placement. IMO, they should have ignored the original FS completely and just counted FSA. It's not like we consider Tetra's Trackers or Shadow Battle as canon games. It would be a much more streamlined timeline without FS in it.

Edited by SOAP, 22 December 2011 - 11:54 PM.

[Hooded Warrior]

There are a lot of upset fans on ZU.

[SOAP]

I'm seeing some familiar faces from ZI. How are you guys?

[Person]

There are a lot of upset fans on ZU.

LOL at the people threatening to quit the series altogether because of this.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Well there we go, it's said and done. Guess we can all go home now.

Actually, I'm really content with this timeline. It solves the problem of OoT having three sequels, and finally explains how Ganon has the whole triforce in ALttP. And the fact that OoT seemed to have been retconned out of being ALttP's prequel, when it was obviously originally intended to be, was something that disappointed me for a long time.

[Mad Scrub]

I kind of dislike the way TMC has been wedged between SS and OoT. I suppose it works but I thought the whole point of SS was to lead into OoT although that might've just been an assumption on my part. Another assumption I had always made was that one Link generally stars in two games. For example, TLoZ and TAoL star the same Link, so does OoT and MM and I assumed ALttP and LA starred the same Link too because of their release dates, art direction etc. This is apparently not the case for FS and FSA or ALttP and LA which bugs me a little. Also one Link could possibly star in three games (OoS, OoA and LA).

Does the guide clear up which Link's are the same and which aren't?

[Beno]

I kind of dislike the way TMC has been wedged between SS and OoT. I suppose it works but I thought the whole point of SS was to lead into OoT although that might've just been an assumption on my part. Another assumption I had always made was that one Link generally stars in two games. For example, TLoZ and TAoL star the same Link, so does OoT and MM and I assumed ALttP and LA starred the same Link too because of their release dates, art direction etc. This is apparently not the case for FS and FSA or ALttP and LA which bugs me a little. Also one Link could possibly star in three games (OoS, OoA and LA).

Does the guide clear up which Link's are the same and which aren't?

We don't know for sure yet. But it does seem like the ones that are group together in the chart are supposed to be the same. We won't know for sure until we can read some of the explanations, which I don't have the ability to do until we get something better than this video.

And also, I translated the chart from the timeline page. There are a few parts I couldn't make out from the video, but I think it's still helpful.

 full timeline.jpg   229.94K   94 downloads

[MikePetersSucks]

That image is HELLA useful, thanks!

[Mad Scrub]

FSA's introduction is a little hard to understand to say the least. Link didn't just appear, he was Zelda's childhood friend and he defeated Vaati in TMC. It also says Vaati kidnapped young girls but if I remember correctly he only kidnapped Zelda. Link destroyed Vaati in TMC but FSA seems to suggest he later binded Vaati in remote area of Hyrule. It then says ages flowed by until he broke free so you would think that they can't be the same Link. It then says Princess Zelda's childhood friend Link used the Four Sword to seal Vaati again. Does the word again mean that the same Link sealed Vaati a second time or does it mean that Vaati was sealed for a second time by a different Link? Or by calling Link a young boy are the writers trying to distinguish between TMC Link and FS Link? Maybe they're all separate Link's after all.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 23 December 2011 - 03:32 AM.

[Beno]

That image is HELLA useful, thanks!

No problem! I still need to clean that translation up (and fill in the holes) and make the names a little nicer, but I just love now that there are official era names. I was so tired of people trying to be cool and make that stuff up.

Edited by Beno, 23 December 2011 - 03:41 AM.

[martinDTanderson]

Nice to see the Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword typefaces are explained, shame the person making the video overlooked them!

[MikePetersSucks]

FSA's introduction is a little hard to understand to say the least. Link didn't just appear, he was Zelda's childhood friend and he defeated Vaati in TMC. It also says Vaati kidnapped young girls but if I remember correctly he only kidnapped Zelda. Link destroyed Vaati in TMC but FSA seems to suggest he later binded Vaati in remote area of Hyrule. It then says ages flowed by until he broke free so you would think that they can't be the same Link. It then says Princess Zelda's childhood friend Link used the Four Sword to seal Vaati again. Does the word again mean that the same Link sealed Vaati a second time or does it mean that Vaati was sealed for a second time by a different Link? Or by calling Link a young boy are the writers trying to distinguish between TMC Link and FS Link? Maybe they're all separate Link's after all.

Nintendo SERIOUSLY fucked up the Four Swords Trilogy entirely. Just accept it.

[joeymartin64]

Nice to see the Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword typefaces are explained, shame the person making the video overlooked them!

Really now? I noticed that the glyphs on Beedle's "sold out" sign repeated where the two "O"s would be, making me think that maybe they did the "English with different glyphs" thing like in TP, but I never really looked into it. That is what they did?

[Beno]

Nice to see the Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword typefaces are explained, shame the person making the video overlooked them!

Really now? I noticed that the glyphs on Beedle's "sold out" sign repeated where the two "O"s would be, making me think that maybe they did the "English with different glyphs" thing like in TP, but I never really looked into it. That is what they did?

Yeah, it's the same idea as TP's script. Some people (I think on Zelda Informer) were able to figure it out from the trailers and screen shots before the game even came out if I remember correctly.

[joeymartin64]

Ah. Well, that's what I get for spoiler-dodging for once, I guess.

[SOAP]

I kind of dislike the way TMC has been wedged between SS and OoT. I suppose it works but I thought the whole point of SS was to lead into OoT although that might've just been an assumption on my part. Another assumption I had always made was that one Link generally stars in two games. For example, TLoZ and TAoL star the same Link, so does OoT and MM and I assumed ALttP and LA starred the same Link too because of their release dates, art direction etc. This is apparently not the case for FS and FSA or ALttP and LA which bugs me a little. Also one Link could possibly star in three games (OoS, OoA and LA).

Does the guide clear up which Link's are the same and which aren't?

We don't know for sure yet. But it does seem like the ones that are group together in the chart are supposed to be the same. We won't know for sure until we can read some of the explanations, which I don't have the ability to do until we get something better than this video.

And also, I translated the chart from the timeline page. There are a few parts I couldn't make out from the video, but I think it's still helpful.

 full timeline.jpg   229.94K   94 downloads

Huh. There's still calling the sleeping Zelda the founding Zelda even though there's several Zeldas before her.

[Beno]

I kind of dislike the way TMC has been wedged between SS and OoT. I suppose it works but I thought the whole point of SS was to lead into OoT although that might've just been an assumption on my part. Another assumption I had always made was that one Link generally stars in two games. For example, TLoZ and TAoL star the same Link, so does OoT and MM and I assumed ALttP and LA starred the same Link too because of their release dates, art direction etc. This is apparently not the case for FS and FSA or ALttP and LA which bugs me a little. Also one Link could possibly star in three games (OoS, OoA and LA).

Does the guide clear up which Link's are the same and which aren't?

We don't know for sure yet. But it does seem like the ones that are group together in the chart are supposed to be the same. We won't know for sure until we can read some of the explanations, which I don't have the ability to do until we get something better than this video.

And also, I translated the chart from the timeline page. There are a few parts I couldn't make out from the video, but I think it's still helpful.

 full timeline.jpg   229.94K   94 downloads

Huh. There's still calling the sleeping Zelda the founding Zelda even though there's several Zeldas before her.

Weirded me out too. I'm guessing it's because they don't seem to be actually retconning anything. It's just annoying to have a "founding" Zelda that only accounts for two of the Zeldas we meet. But I guess they fixed the issue of Zelda being named Zelda already anyways.

[GlitterBerri]

Here's the complete translation, guys. I'm a little late and Beno's already done a great job! Thanks to him for tipping me off.

http://www.glitterbe...da_timeline.jpg

[Beno]

Here's the complete translation, guys. I'm a little late and Beno's already done a great job! Thanks to him for tipping me off.

http://www.glitterberri.com/zelda_timeline.jpg

Awesome, awesome! Thanks so much!

[martinDTanderson]

You shouldn't think of the 3rd timeline as a "what if" or "link is defeated" situation, and more like the way things were predestined to be.

Take away the Adult and Child timelines and you have a consistent timeline which involves the notions of destiny and pre-destiny according to legend.

Ganondorf was destined to obtain the Triforce (OoT), and Link was destined to defeat him and claim it back(ALttP).

Now look at where Zelda intervened in OoT and "screwed things up". Her actions broke the predestined path, and caused two timelines which deal with the consequences. One where Ganondorf obtained the Triforce of Power as some kind of "divine prank", and one where no hero emerged to counter the threat at all.

In both scenarios, the Gods were forced to intervene either with floods, or light spirits. Which is against their idea of being hands off deities. After all, once the world was created, they left behind the Triforce and Hylia as a sign of prosperity and hope for all people.

__________

In a funny way, Hylia and Demise are balancing forces. Hylia gave up her mortality to obtain the Triforce and use it for good, while Demise achieved a form of immortality in his quest to obtain the Triforce to use for ill.

But Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, and A Link to the Past all seem to have a pre-destined goal. SS sets the thing in motion. Demise's curse is bound to the Triforce. As long as it exists, Evil will emerge to try to claim it. And Hylia set it in motion that a Hero will be found to fight that evil.

Ocarina of Time enforces this, with the need for balance of spirit in order to claim the Triforce.

A Link to the Past tells us that when ever the Evil emerges to claim the Triforce, a Hero will always emerge to fight it.

The other timelines are reactions to destiny being changed. The hero that will always appear, didn't. Evil did not claim the full Triforce, only part of it.

[Beno]

I actually really like your explanation. It's a very elegant way to deal with it. We don't know for sure yet, but it looks like it says Link is indeed defeated by Ganondorf. Which means that Zelda would have already intervened at that point.

Edited by Beno, 23 December 2011 - 06:59 AM.

[martinDTanderson]

I actually really like your explanation. It's a very elegant way to deal with it. We don't know for sure yet, but it looks like it says Link is indeed defeated by Ganondorf. Which means that Zelda would have already intervened at that point.

The result is the same if Link confronts Ganondorf, or if he just does not fight at all. Ganondorf claims the full Triforce, and is sealed away along with the Triforce, into the sacred realm/dark world.

[River Zora]

Weirded me out too. I'm guessing it's because they don't seem to be actually retconning anything. It's just annoying to have a "founding" Zelda that only accounts for two of the Zeldas we meet. But I guess they fixed the issue of Zelda being named Zelda already anyways.

people keep saying that when they've done no such thing. NOTHING about SS implied Princesses would always be called Zelda, nothing at all. The fact we don't even see a Princess Zelda in SS shows that we haven't even had the first Princess yet. Moreover, pushing the ACTUAL legend of Zelda to the very end of only one of the timelines? What the flying funk? What was the Prince thinking?

"Gee, you know how a hundred generations of Princesses have passed and they're all called Zelda... And, not that I'd know in universe, but the destiny to be called Zelda exists on other timelines, not just as tradition but actual law it would seem from Tetra's name change upon discovering her heritage... And the fact we've never had a Princess not called Zelda since the founding of our nation... LET'S MAKE A DECREE THEY SHOULD ALL BE NAMED ZELDA FROM NOW ON UNTIL MY SISTER AWAKES WHICH WILL ONLY AFFECT ONE MEANING tWW NOW MAKES NO SENSE AND THERE ARE TEN TIMES AS MANY ZELDAS OUTSIDE THE NAMING TRADITION THAN THERE WILL END UP BEING WITHIN IT. HERP DERP."

Seriously. tWW all but insisted that the naming tradition existed prior to OoT, and now we know that the whole 'you're really Zelda' thing was nothing more than the deranged ramblings of an insane old man.

Way to ruin the legend.