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Potential timeline reveal?


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#31 FDL

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:48 PM

Well, the history overview doesn't seem to mention Skyward Sword either, so this timeline won't necessarily cover only the stuff explicitly delved into further. Eh, whatever, at least the story gets some representation. Personally I hope it gets translated by fans or released in the US even if it doesn't answer every timeline question ever, should be fun to read regardless.

#32 Jarsh

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:24 PM

Isn't a bunch of SS stuff covered in the section before the History of Hyrule? Maybe they thought it'd be redundant for SS to have its own section and take up a part of the second section.

#33 FDL

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:28 PM

Well there's a difference between story stuff being covered and development/art stuff being covered. They're not mutually exclusive.

#34 Person

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 02:01 AM

Interesting. Maybe they just don't count the 2D games for the purposes of story anymore.

#35 SOAP

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 06:23 AM

Well that simplifies things.

#36 ganonlord6000

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:09 AM

Interesting. Maybe they just don't count the 2D games for the purposes of story anymore.


No. I'm guessing they won't be including the 2D games since they know that those are the games that are hard to place. However, with SS on top of TP, I think they fall into place. I mean, what are the odds of both TP and SS showing the MS in the forest? I'd say that's a loud hint.

I've seen someone post this translation of the second section of the book's index on another forum: <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Quote

"History of Hyrule
~Finally Revealed, The Genealogy of the [Legend]~
The Timeline of Hyrule, Kingdom of the Gods......................................68
The Legend of Gods and the Hero of Time...........................................70
The Downfall of Hyrule and the last Hero...............................................92
The Twilight Realm and the Hero's Descendant................................. 110
The Hero of Wind and the new World.....................................................122
<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">It does seem to imply that the chronology will be explained, but judging by these subsections it'll only include the <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">SS - OoT - WW/PH -ST<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">::::::::::\MM - TP<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">part of the timeline.



What was I saying? I was guessing thus was all they were going to show. There's no way Nintendo would ruin all of the fun for us.

#37 KJ Contrarian

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 08:48 AM

Interesting. Maybe they just don't count the 2D games for the purposes of story anymore.

I'd say this kinda says the classic games are on their own timeline branch. :whistle:

#38 FDL

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:11 AM

I don't think so, Twilight Princess has quite a few allusions to Twilight Princess, especially in regards to the Master Sword. I don't think ALttP/LA and LoZ/AoL are really all that much of a package deal considering how little ALttP actually sets up it's "sequels", but I think ALttP itself still seems relevant.

#39 KJ Contrarian

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:11 PM

I don't think so, Twilight Princess has quite a few allusions to Twilight Princess, especially in regards to the Master Sword. I don't think ALttP/LA and LoZ/AoL are really all that much of a package deal considering how little ALttP actually sets up it's "sequels", but I think ALttP itself still seems relevant.

Or, the Sacred Grove in TP could just be an homage to ALTTP. Especially since, really, the Sacred Grove in the TP credits is all TP-ALTTP has going for it as far as evidence.

Edited by KJ Contrarian, 18 December 2011 - 12:12 PM.


#40 FDL

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:23 PM

Not just that, no. It's more than just a resemblance, it's the fact that it seems to be trying to bridge the gap between the Temple of Time and the Lost Woods of ALttP, the fact that language used to describe Ganondorf and used by Ganondorf directly reference ALttP, that much of the backstory of the game has to do with the search for the Triforce that rather resembles ALttP's own backstory, etc. There's really nothing to suggest ALttP has been forgotten or relegated to it's own timeline, so I don't know how the various references can just be dismissed. They could very easily just say "the first few games aren't part of the timeline" if it were that simple, instead of sending the message to those who already believed it by quietly omitting them from the chapters in the History guide. We still don't know if they'll be represented in the two-page timeline and simply not be elaborated on, if they will have representation in the proper history section, if they won't be mentioned at all, etc.

#41 KJ Contrarian

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:18 PM

Not just that, no. It's more than just a resemblance, it's the fact that it seems to be trying to bridge the gap between the Temple of Time and the Lost Woods of ALttP, the fact that language used to describe Ganondorf and used by Ganondorf directly reference ALttP, that much of the backstory of the game has to do with the search for the Triforce that rather resembles ALttP's own backstory, etc. There's really nothing to suggest ALttP has been forgotten or relegated to it's own timeline, so I don't know how the various references can just be dismissed. They could very easily just say "the first few games aren't part of the timeline" if it were that simple, instead of sending the message to those who already believed it by quietly omitting them from the chapters in the History guide. We still don't know if they'll be represented in the two-page timeline and simply not be elaborated on, if they will have representation in the proper history section, if they won't be mentioned at all, etc.

I see what you mean. Damn - We have to get that two-page timeline analyzed. It could yield something.

#42 SOAP

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:24 PM

I don't think so, Twilight Princess has quite a few allusions to Twilight Princess, especially in regards to the Master Sword. I don't think ALttP/LA and LoZ/AoL are really all that much of a package deal considering how little ALttP actually sets up it's "sequels", but I think ALttP itself still seems relevant.

I woukd hope Twilight Princess links to Twilight Princess, considering it's the same game. ;d

I kid, I kid...


I don't think so, Twilight Princess has quite a few allusions to Twilight Princess, especially in regards to the Master Sword. I don't think ALttP/LA and LoZ/AoL are really all that much of a package deal considering how little ALttP actually sets up it's "sequels", but I think ALttP itself still seems relevant.

Or, the Sacred Grove in TP could just be an homage to ALTTP. Especially since, really, the Sacred Grove in the TP credits is all TP-ALTTP has going for it as far as evidence.


If it was just in TP, I'd see your point but SS has a Temple in a forest by the same name as the one in TP in much the same location as TP's which--

Spoiler


So that's two games in a row that refer to the Master Sword being in the Temple of Time in a forest and since both games act as bookends to OoT, and since there's evidence the Temple of Time was originally intended to be in Lost Woods in OoT anyways, the Temple of Time seems to have been retconned to have always been in the same location as it is in ALttP. That sounds like a direct connection to me. And I don't want to hear any talk of it being a different forest because there's only one forest in the four games involved so the discrepancies can always be chalked up to artistic license just like every other time Hyrule turns out to be slightly different in each game.

Edit: Two sections kinda bother me right now. "The Legend of Gods and the Hero of Time" and "The Downfall of Hyrule and the last Hero." At first I thought this referred to OoT nd TWW respectively but there's a later section called the "Hero of Winds and New Hyrule" which could be referring to the whole AT as a whole including TWW and ST. But then what the heck is the Downfall of Hyrule supposed to be and who is the Last Hero? It could be that this section refers to OoT and the Hero of Time is actually SS Link considering he does much more time travelling but I djust don't know. It seems almost like they're trying to squeeze the classic games between OooT and TP, or possibly a third split. Progressive Legends Theory FTW? It's the Last Hero part that really gets me. Why last Hero if two Heroes are mentioned next and third one is implied?

Edited by SOAP, 18 December 2011 - 07:35 PM.


#43 FDL

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:32 PM


I don't think so, Twilight Princess has quite a few allusions to Twilight Princess, especially in regards to the Master Sword. I don't think ALttP/LA and LoZ/AoL are really all that much of a package deal considering how little ALttP actually sets up it's "sequels", but I think ALttP itself still seems relevant.

I woukd hope Twilight Princess links to Twilight Princess, considering it's the same game. ;d

I kid, I kid...


CURSE YOU FOR NOTICING MY GAFF!

#44 Showsni

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:43 PM

Maybe the "last hero" turns out to be AoL or something and confuses everything.

Still, what's the betting we'll get:

"Timeline of the Zelda games (by release date):
LoZ
AoL
etc..."

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


#45 Hooded Warrior

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:54 PM

I have a feeling that a lot of people will be disappointed. I don't think that this will reveal the timeline placement for the 2-D games. Maybe ALTTP will get a placement if we're lucky. I certainly wouldn't get my hopes up for the NES games getting a timeline placement.

#46 Beno

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:12 AM

Melora's History of Hyrule site as posted up some preview images of Hyrule Historia, including 4 pages from the timeline section: http://historyofhyru...storia/005.html It looks like it might be more detailed than I ever thought...

Attached File  Zelda110-111.jpg   605.29K   50 downloads

Here is the important text:

Twilight Realm and the Hero's Descendants
Link, the Hero of Time, was victorious and Ganon's seal was successful. He returned to his original time and met with Princess Zelda, and a different history was spun.

Another History of the Hyrule Kingdom

Period of the Hero of Time (Child Era):

Ocarina of Time:

The Hero of Time's Return
By rewinding the time of his 7 years sleep with Zelda's power, Link returned to his original time.
He now went to Hyrule Castle's courtyard. Princess Zelda was watching Ganondorf as before when they first met.

Notice of the Future
Link told Princess Zelda what will happen in the future. She listened and so to prevent Ganondorf from entering the Sacred Realm, entrusted Link with the Ocarina of Time and instructed him to leave with it.
This time, the back of Link's hand was shining with the proof of the Triforce of Courage. Finished with the battle with evil from the future world, the hero carried the burden of the secret journey.

Majora's Mask:

Link's Departure
Link borrowed Epona from Lon Lon Ranch. And after several months of wandering looking for his past friend Navi, he was lost in a mysterious forest where there was a way to the parallel universe called Termina.

Right side column text:

The Hero's Return
The place where Link returned was the Temple of Time. The Master Sword remained stuck before the time the Sacred Realm was opened. His friend Navi disappeared into the sky, and Link walked into the new history.

Triforce of Courage
The proof of courage was carried on the back of Link's hand. Since Ganondorf was sealed away with the Triforce of Power, the Triforce remained with the chosen ones of the Gods.

Caption:Link Carrying the Hero's Crest

#47 Snow

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:25 AM

Wow, this is great. Finally, an explanation of what actually happened in OoT's ending (and after it).

#48 FDL

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:33 AM

Yeah, awesome. And nice that actually made the Triforce of Courage relevant instead of forgetting about it as some people believed they did for TP's story. This is also perhaps the first confirmed instance of the two timelines interacting in some way.

Edited by FDL, 20 December 2011 - 11:36 AM.


#49 Nerushi

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:49 AM

Now that is useful!

This settles the enduring debate of WHEN Link returned in time. Before he saw Zelda and the Sacred Realm was never opened. Good to have that over and done with.
Also interesting how they addressed the ToC. Though it seem here that it is because AT Ganondorf was sealed with the ToP that caused the divine prank, if by 'remained' they mean the CT. Hmm, we need the translation for the TP section badly now :P

#50 FDL

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:13 PM

By the way, Beno, if you're the one who translated this thanks a ton. I greatly appreciate it, and I'm sure anyone else who has an interest in the Zelda storyline does as well.

EDIT: Also, I've been mulling this over, does this really imply Link met Zelda for the first time a second time? When you say someone's doing something as they did when you first met, it doesn't necessarily mean you're literally witnessing the same event again.

Edited by FDL, 20 December 2011 - 02:27 PM.


#51 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:53 PM

Well this called a lot of STUPID ASS arguments. Thank goodness!!!

#52 FDL

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:01 PM

Yeah, as much as I was a part of those arguments and I argued often for a theory that didn't end up being entirely true, I'm mainly just relieved a lot of the nonsense is over. Though I see even now people on ZU are refusing to believe this says that the Triforce remained split in the child timeline as well.

#53 Impossible

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:19 PM

Princess Zelda was watching Ganondorf as before when they first met.


Okay, so, this is confusing. The implication seems to be that, since Ganondorf is still in the castle and Link hasn't gotten the ocarina yet, this is not after Link gets the spiritual stones. So I'd take it to mean this is their first meeting.

In which case, I'm pretty worried about the contents of the overall timeline document and how consistent they are, because it would seem to me that Nintendo is overlooking some massive fucking plotholes. Like the references in TP to how the hero saved the Gorons and Zoras.

I really hope a full translation clarifies some things, because it doesn't make a lot of sense - the entire reason Zelda gave Link the Ocarina of Time was to prevent the Adult Timeline events from repeating... Except Ganon ALREADY had the Triforce of Power for some inexplicable reason, so I'm not sure how much he gains by entering the Sacred Realm. Just from what's there, it seems really ambiguous and open to interpretation, which would make it really fucking stupid, given that this is the first time Nintendo has had a chance to clear things up... And yet it's really not clear and kind of glossed over. Guess we have to hope that when it's fully translated, whoever does it does a good job.

Edited by Impossible, 20 December 2011 - 03:20 PM.


#54 Beno

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:46 PM

Princess Zelda was watching Ganondorf as before when they first met.


This quote is definitely ambiguous as fuck. I decided to try and stay true to the Japanese and make the English translation pretty literal, but it seemed to me that the definite implication is that they have not met yet.

Except Ganon ALREADY had the Triforce of Power for some inexplicable reason, so I'm not sure how much he gains by entering the Sacred Realm.


I doubt Ganondorf knows he has the Triforce of Power until he is getting sealed away by the sages in Twilight Princess backstory, thus the divine prank might just be a prank on Ganon? "You had the part of the Triforce all this time, but we're just now going to let you use it?" Just an idea and my opinion. Going to start translating that page on Twilight Princess next though.

EDIT: The more I think about it, I'm almost positive that's the case. It's not like Link knew he got the Triforce in the Adult Timeline until Zelda told him.

Edited by Beno, 20 December 2011 - 03:48 PM.


#55 FDL

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:53 PM

That Twilight Princess page might at least explain if Ganondorf was unaware of the Triforce sleeping within him...hopefully. Still, to me what was changed regardless of Ganondorf's knowledge is the fact that Ganondorf didn't have a dark realm to build an army of demons in. In ALttP even when Ganon has the entire Triforce it's said he needs to build his power before he can conquer Hyrule, OoT places importance on the darkness spreading forth from the temples as being a cause of Ganondorf being the boss by the time Link wakes up and the 3DS version has visual clues suggesting a battle was fought at Hyrule Castle, and The Wind Waker mentions he used "evil forces" to take over Hyrule both times, plus there's that whole plot point about Link unsealing his monster as if it's a big deal. Just my two cents, there...

#56 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:18 PM

In which case, I'm pretty worried about the contents of the overall timeline document and how consistent they are, because it would seem to me that Nintendo is overlooking some massive fucking plotholes. Like the references in TP to how the hero saved the Gorons and Zoras.


Ganondorf attacked in the child timeline anyway. Guess Link did some heroics either before or after Termina. Who knows?

In any case Child Link didn't use a fucking Bow to save the Gorons.

#57 JRPomazon

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:37 PM

You think they'd translate this book? I mean, I'd get it regardless of what language it was in but it can't hurt to ask.

#58 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:09 PM

These sort of books are pretty much never translated to English, unfortunately.

#59 Jarsh

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:47 PM

We didn't get the Nintendo Dream artbook either (although, to be fair, it's not as big a deal as this historia).

There's a small chance we could, but I think MPS is right.

#60 joeymartin64

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:17 PM

These sort of books are pretty much never translated to English, unfortunately.

There were plans to bring over one of the Rockman ones (Zero series, I think), but they fell through for some reason.

Like the references in TP to how the hero saved the Gorons and Zoras.

I've still yet to see a reference in TP of how the hero saved the Zoras. I looked like hell through the quote FAQ, and didn't find anything to that effect.

She listened and so to prevent Ganondorf from entering the Sacred Realm, entrusted Link with the Ocarina of Time and instructed him to leave with it.

And this is really weird for two reasons. 1) The Triforce is already split at this time, implying that Ganondorf was already in the SR, and 2) the flashback in MM doesn't gel with this at all, having no Ganon-related urgency, and a very different reason for Zelda giving him the OoT.

The book also says that they prevented Ganondorf from entering the SR, but also that he was sealed in the SR. Very strange.




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