84 replies to this topic

[Veteran]

Where else would they go?

[Raien]

Where else would they go?

I'm sure there were more plausible ways to escape the situation. It's not like Neil Gaiman isn't famous for having an active imagination.

[Veteran]

CHRIST ON A BIKE!

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Why did the last scene remind me so much of that darned awful sex scene from Species II? (I regret ever watching the first X minutes of that film, even though I didn't pay any money to watch it).

[JRPomazon]

I think I rather like this

Spoiler

Voldemort ganger doctor.

Delightfully terrifying.

[Veteran]

Nominating the Sontaran nurse as best character ever!

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Nominating the Sontaran nurse as best character ever!

Seconded! I look forward to seeing him again, so that I may ruthlessly kill him in battle... or maybe not.

[Raien]

Once again I'm late to the party, but this latest episode has given me a few things to think about.

First, I'll say that the entire half-series has been excellent, although I'm hurting over how easily Moffat tricked me into predicting a dual-timeline plotline with some well-placed red herrings in the early episodes.

What's got me thinking is that the final episode makes the point that the Doctor in New Doctor Who hasn't been behaving much like the Doctor in Classic Doctor Who. The reason is obvious; in order to compress full stories into fifty-minute episodes, the writers have had to give the Doctor much more power so that he can quickly and efficiently beat the villains. But the Rebel Flesh two-parter, on the other hand, was Classic Doctor Who in everything but the name. The event was a tragic conflict that the Doctor attempted to end by encouraging peace between the two parties. I can seriously imagine a classic Doctor like Jon Pertwee or Tom Baker in the same kind of storyline with the cheap special effects. I honestly hope that this is a sign that the writers are going to take steps to bring back some of the old themes and stories of Classic Doctor Who for the new series. Doctor Who has its roots in classic invasion stories and I'd like to see some more of that in Doctor Who.

PS: I loved how the serious and emotional ending was immediately followed by "Next episode: Let's Kill Hitler!" Monty Python couldn't have done it better themselves.

Edited by Raien, 07 June 2011 - 05:31 PM.

[Nevermind]

I'm still sticking to my theory that the Doctor is acting in a far more sinister fashion to make way for

Spoiler

The Valeyard as a new super-villain with Davros and The Master both gone.

[Veteran]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dream Lord from last series turns out to be the Valeyard.

[Nevermind]

Well he has been considered a potential early development of the Valeyard's creation. If they do decide to include him in the new series, then it won't come about until Matt Smith's run is over.

[JRPomazon]

Spoiler

I think that's the thing. Fans expect that the Dream Lord and the Valeyard have a connection because they are both creations of the Doctor's inner negativity. We can feel free to speculate and propose that these two characters are one and the same but if I was in Moffat's shoes and I caught wind of this, I would consider other ways to screw with the fans for a big shock at the end when the fans realize that all this time they were wrong. Makes for a more interesting story when things are less predictable.

[Nevermind]

I think the Dreamlord and Valeyard only have a connection in that they are both negative manifestations of The Doctor. Look at this latest episode, though.

Spoiler

The implication that The Doctor, for all he has said and done, is becoming known as a warrior - or a tyrant in some cases - across the entire universe. He's becoming increasingly angry, cold, sometimes on the verge of being cruel. Moffat has already recycled The Master and Davros, so I don't think it's predictable of him to use The Valeyard. Assuming he is following continuity as much as he can, then people know The Valeyard is coming anyway. Those who desire/think it to be The Valeyard will be looking - likely rather excitedly - to see if Moffat pulls it off as well as he did The Master.

[Veteran]

Moffat had nothing to do with the Master, that was all Rusty. If Sherlock (written by Moffat) is anything to go by, his Master will be even crazier!

[Chikara Nadir]

So. A couple of days I FINALLY got around to watching the final two episodes up to the mid-season break. Yeah, I know, I'm a little slow. I've had them saved on my computer for how long now?

Anyway, thoughts. Unrelated to the Valeyard.

Spoiler

First off, the dilemmas we've had since going to the '60s. I'd assumed that somehow Amy was in an alternate reality all along, seeing glimpses of the other side - where I knew she was pregnant, and crazy eyepatch chick was watching over her. Even up until the end of the Flesh episodes, I hadn't realized that it wasn't a matter of the Rory/Doctor reality being fake, but that Amy herself was the fake. Damn.

But what else about those 'gangers? Amy admitted to Doctor-ganger that she had seen him die, not realizing that he was the real Doctor all along. Being the Doctor, and there being more important things at the time, he ignored her comment and Amy - and thus also a large percentage of viewers - completely forgot the correlation.

Now, about River Song. I'll admit that since the very fist episode with Amy, I've been trying to decide what significance there might (or might not be) in her name. Ever since the Doctor remarked on there being a duck pond with no ducks, and her claiming that it's just what they've always called it. Pond, huh. Her last name. Of course, enter the droves of fans thinking that River Song WAS Amy, and I'm glad that didn't come to pass. Rory put too much effort (and too many deaths) into that relationship, and they were far too adorable together. Still, then we found out that "The only water in the forest is the river." Back to me wondering - why would they bring up water sources again? More River/Pond speculation.

Then we find out that Melody Pond=River Song? So here we have Amy and Rory knowing, from this day forward, that their baby is going to bang the Doctor in a few years/centuries/millennia? Oh dear. Okay, but back to the '60s. First, the kid's room. By then we know that it wasn't real Amy anymore, because it was (I think) her first encounter with eyepatch chick. The photos that the little girl (who we now know as Melody) had in her room of her mother. Does this mean that she will see Amy again in her baby/toddler days? Or was that photo from their super-brief time together in the beginning?

Anyway. I'm speculating, as I assume others are, that Melody/River was the one in the spacesuit that killed the Doctor. It's her only purpose, as far as she knows. Whether that'll be the incident of her killing the best man she ever knew, that much I'm unsure about (who knows, she could end up killing Rory. It happens often enough). However, it'd make plenty of sense and be very fitting - she would have been barely conceived when the Doctor died, happening at the same time that River was speculating she would be dying soon, as she had received her last (and the Doctor's first) kiss. Furthermore, it'd mean the first time she meets the Doctor is on the day of his death, just as he first met River before her death. Messy and tidy at the same time, aye?

Also - if at the end of that episode, River knew Gallifreyan (as I assume she did at that point in her life), then we can assume that if she didn't already know the Doctor's real name...well, she sure as hell would have learned it from the side of that crib. I'm still not convinced that she wasn't pointing his eyes toward the name on the crib itself, not just the prayer leaf.

And randomly, just happened to find this:

[Veteran]

I'm wondering if the point of all this is to firmly get some kind of Time Lord civilisation going again. That the reason the silents or Kovarian or both were involved with what we assume to be young Melody was to learn how a child conceived in the time vortex can become a Time Lord.

As all anyone's seen since the revival are evil Time Lords, a soft reset on them might be a decent way to bring them back. It also means no strings attached in terms of the Doctor's history and you know they love to keep that vague to non-existant.

[Chikara Nadir]

The Wedding of River Song. How about that episode, there?


And of course, spoilers aside, all I have to say is...Doctor Who?

[Emiko]

The Wedding of River Song. How about that episode, there?


And of course, spoilers aside, all I have to say is...Doctor Who?

Loved it....but I kinda figured half of what happened..glad to see the other half that happened that I didn't call..that was pretty sweet. can't wait till December

[Chikara Nadir]

I honestly thought that The Doctor asking River to marry him was going to be "the question". I'm surprised that they decided to pull the actual one on us - the first, the oldest, the one hidden in plain view!

[JRPomazon]

I can't believe it's over for now. GAH! So much happened! I'm not entirely certain how I feel about the finale, I sorta wanted a different end to things without the addition of more questions! MY MIND IS POOP.

EDIT: And now that my mind has had time to sort itself out, I think the general feeling I get is sentimentality. Not really the whole River Song thing. It was the mentioning of the Brigadier's death. I've been watching some classic who recently (3rd Doctor stuff) and Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart was a huge character during the times of the 2nd-7th doctors, despite that his appearances were fewer as the years went on. The actor who played the character had passed away recently, so it makes sense that they would eventually address the character having died. It was how the Doctor reacted to the news that one of his oldest friends has died over the phone that really made this episode for me.

Edited by JRPomazon, 01 October 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Oh, I'm glad you posted that up, because I missed that bit. My mother was talking on the phone... loudly. Then complained about how she couldn't understand what was going on.

OF COURSE YOU COULDN'T UNDERSTAND! YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THE CHARACTERS WERE SAYING!

[Chikara Nadir]

I'm also glad you brought that up, Jerp. We heard the bit on tv, but couldn't quite make out who they'd said had died, so with the online search trying to determine it and all...it lost a lot of its significance. Seeing it in the show's real-time again makes it much more touching - not to mention the weight of The Doctor's realization that inevitably, time must go on (of course, the same point he spent the episode trying to get across to River). It's a shame that UNIT has only had brief mentions in the new series.

I really enjoyed the full circle that this season accomplished, even if some might argue that the Doctor's death was a little anticlimactic. In my opinion, if you have a problem with the show pulling deus ex machina every five minutes, then you should have stopped watching a long time ago.

Spoiler

I know I may be in the minority at this point, but I'm very satisfied with everything River. Hell in high heels trying to rip the universe apart for her Doctor, lying to her at the wedding alter to get a point across, and him traipsing across the stars with her during the evenings even after his 'death'. Although I believe the majority of points in River's life that are relevant to the Doctor's timeline have been played out, I'd like to hope that she hasn't 'outgrown her usefulness' to the show. There are still plenty of possible adventures for the two in her timeline - Easter Island, the picnic at Asgard, the Bone Meadows, meeting Jim the Fish, ice skating on the River Thames with Stevie Wonder, and of course their last night in the Singing Towers, where he would give her the upgraded sonic screwdriver to be used in the The Library.

Of all the appearances of old allies/enemies, for some reason seeing Dorium's head was one of my favorites. Also, I was surprised but pleased that Amy, in the end, was the one to get final revenge on Madame Kovarian.

Also, yay for fun pictures!

(Look, look, Doctor has the head-in-a-box!)

[Alastair]

Oh, I'm glad you posted that up, because I missed that bit. My mother was talking on the phone... loudly. Then complained about how she couldn't understand what was going on.

OF COURSE YOU COULDN'T UNDERSTAND! YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THE CHARACTERS WERE SAYING!

Maybe its just a mum thing. Mine insists on talking loudly at people when they are trying to watch a programme/film, and then criticises said programme/film for having an incomprehensible plot (but she is often drunk)!

[Selena]

Finally got to watch it at the tender hour of 2 AM.

Spoiler

I generally liked it. The second half of this series was so-so, but the finale managed to close it well enough. Alex Kingston probably has a lot to do with that, along with her moments of direct interaction with the Doctor. She has a theater background, and I think she's someone who can make otherwise hum-drum lines sound a lot better than they actually are. She knows precisely when to make things light or when to give things a lot of meaning without it sounding forced.

The episode was a lot to take in, but some of my confusion probably stems from watching it so late at night. Then again, Doctor Who making logical sense is an impossibility, so it's best just to hang on and focus on the little moments along the way. If nothing else, it should make for an interesting next series, but I had similar hopes for the second half of this one.

Nice little tribute paid to the Brigadier, though relative death shouldn't mean much to a person who can jump back to any point in time and visit. I guess it'd be a matter of potentially crossing his own time stream, given his association with him.

And on a side note, I thought it was rather nice how they used his bowtie for their handfasting.



My only real complaint is how they've gone about using the Doctor and River's time streams. Initially, it felt they were two people traveling in opposite directions.

<--- River
Doctor --->

This made for an interesting, almost heartbreaking metaphor. It represented a couple with a sort of dementia. River had to watch the Doctor slowly but surely forget her as time went on, fearing the day when he wouldn't recognize her at all. It was expected, then, that the Doctor would have to suffer the same fate and watch River forget all about him as well.

Except, the way things have gone, River is being pulled almost randomly out of her time stream. It's hard to keep track of where River is in her life. In this episode alone, we've got: Assassin-River not long after her Mels regeneration, River as a witness to Lake Silencio, and then River showing up after the Byzantium to have a wine-filled chat. The last of which places her at the closest point to Silence in the Library yet.

It's all over the place. So while we are generally going backwards into River's timeline as things progress, it's realistically impossible to go back any further than "Let's Kill Hitler," because I doubt they're going to routinely bring back "Mels" instead of Alex Kingston. Which means River has to be pulled from random, older points in her time stream to make things work.

River will probably be around for a while longer - you can't marry the Doctor to someone and then immediately get rid of her - but I have a feeling it will get very confusing, very fast.

[JRPomazon]

Another Brigadier moment, punching out the Master in the Five Doctors

[Veteran]

I was a tad underwhelmed by the finale, but I was kind of expecting it since it wasn't a two-parter. I'm disappointed a little by the whole Silence thing now set to extend across a third year of Dr Who. Yet I still have unshakable faith in the Grand Moff... or maybe I'm wavering slightly. I don't know.


Now if River's distress signal in the temporary alternate reality had been picked up as the final scene? I would have said the episode was awesome. Imagine:

"The question! Hidden in plain sight! Doctor, who? Doctor, who? DOCTOR WHO?"

<close up of the Doctor>

<scene fades with the same effect as the alternate reality disappearing>

<camera follows the distress signal on top of the pyramid up into the sky and outer space until it reaches...>

I can see breaking a fixed point in time could also break a time lock around, oh I don't know, GALLIFREY AND SKARO.

[Emiko]

I still don't get what the question is that is hidden in plain sight... D:

[Selena]

The question they kept repeating at the end, Emi.


"Doctor who?"


His name. His real identity. The one question the series has had from the beginning, but never answered.

[Emiko]

The question they kept repeating at the end, Emi.


"Doctor who?"


His name. His real identity. The one question the series has had from the beginning, but never answered.

oooo duh....lol

I wanna know what his name is

[Sir Deimos]

Here's what I wanna know from the finale....



How'd the Tessalector do the Time Lord regeneration process?