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Goddess of the Wind?


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#31 FDL

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:39 PM


I don't really buy into the idea that the Oracles are representative of stuff the Gods they're named after are, necessarily. Seasons would logically fall under what Nayru contributed as they're more "laws" of the world. And "secrets" seems like a weird vague concept that I doubt any one God can really be the boss of. And even the time songs have the symbols of each Goddess represented. But who knows.


I guess he Oracle Din got Seasons because it has to do with changes on the earth, which the Goddess Din is strongly associated with, while the passage of time has more to do with the movement of the sky, which I guess the Goddess Nayru is associated with. I don't know about Secrets though. I guess you can tie it with esoteric spiritual knowledge. Spirituality you can associate with Spirits which you can associate with Breath which you can associate with Wind. A bit of a stretch but...


Definitely, in regards to Din. However, I do think of the Goddesses the one who gave seasons to the world is most likely Nayru.


Plus associating Nayru with Water lets you divy up the OoT races amongst them - Din gets Gorons, Nayru gets Zoras, and Farore gets Kokiri. (With their represetnative Spiritual stones.)


I think the tribes definitely have some special ties to the individual goddesses, but at the same time it's probably not always set in stone. Mainly because the Zora ended up being the ones given Din's Pearl when they were choosing people to guard the Tower of the Gods and their bloodline is also tied to a temple of Earth.

#32 SOAP

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:40 AM

Well I wouldn't divide the goddesses to specific races, even in OoT. Each race seems to have their own tribal deity anyways and having a plethora of faiths coexisting peacefully adds to the multi-ethnicity of Hyrule. You could could say the Goddesses are major gods worshipped by all of Hyrule's Citizens and maybe in countries outside of Hyrule, and there's smaller tribe-specific religions for lesser gods like how the Zora worship Lord Jabuu-Jabuu. I guess I could certain races favoring one goddess over the other though, like Gorons admiring Din's Strength, the Kokiri valuing farore's life-giving breath ect. Hylians/Humans probably worship all three.

And just to throw this out there, I don't think the Goddess of the Sands has anything to do with Din. We've seen what the Goddess of the Sands looks like in the Spirit Temple. She looks like you're typical Gerudo Woman with a snake wrapped around her. Din, in her various depictions, is always potrayed as the ideal Hylian Woman, just like her sisters. The Goddess of the Sands is propably something specific to the Gerudo race, kinda like the Deku Tree is to the Kokiri.

Edited by SOAP, 06 April 2011 - 02:37 AM.


#33 FDL

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:29 AM

Not to say Din is surely the Goddess of the Sand, but the only times we've seen her as more than a golden mannequin kind of thing with almost no features of any kind, it was in a statue where she and her sisters were all portrayed exactly the same and bizarrely had long tongues, and in the little statues on the Triangle Isles. And in the latter they weren't totally portrayed as ideal Hylian women I think, Nayru had fins on her head and all that. But, again, that's not to say the Goddess of the Sand is definitely Din. And if it is, I'd assume the Gerudo were taking creative license.

#34 SOAP

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:20 PM

Not to say Din is surely the Goddess of the Sand, but the only times we've seen her as more than a golden mannequin kind of thing with almost no features of any kind, it was in a statue where she and her sisters were all portrayed exactly the same and bizarrely had long tongues, and in the little statues on the Triangle Isles. And in the latter they weren't totally portrayed as ideal Hylian women I think, Nayru had fins on her head and all that. But, again, that's not to say the Goddess of the Sand is definitely Din. And if it is, I'd assume the Gerudo were taking creative license.


I disagree! Here's a compilation of how the goddesses have been portrayed throughout the series.

Posted Image
In their first appearance in ALttP, they're potrayed as identical blonde haired, blued-eyed Hylian women.

Posted Image
In OoT, indeed they are featureless golden mannequins but the whole cutscene seems to be metaphorical akin to cutscene in TP where Lanayru talks about the interloppers. In that vision also, Link, Multiple Shadow Links, Ilia, the Triforce, the Fused Shadows appear around a grassy hill in the midst of a pitch black backdrop. All of it was symbolic. I think that's the same thing with Zelda's retelling of Hyrule's Creation Myth and if you think of it has a scene only in Link's Mind, as a boy who grew up in the forest with no knowlege of the outside world or Hyrule's religion, he probably did take the concept "Golden Goddesses" quite literally and imagined vaguely female shapes made of gold. That is not the only definition of golden though. It can alo mean "perfect" or "ideal." In alll other depictions, they're given more details and look like ideal Hylain women.

Posted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image
These are the statues you were talking about in TWW, Yes Nayru does appaer to have fish-like ears but I think this is only maent to be thematic. Nayru is often associated with water so the ears make sense. Farore is associated with forests, plantlife, ect so she has flowers in her hair. Din is associated with fire and has more dragon-looking ears. But all of them look more-or-less Hylian to me. At the very least Nayru isn't exactly a Zora nor is Din a dragon in these depictions. Also it should be noted taht they bear passing resemblances to the Oracles that share their names below.
Posted Image
The Oracles appear Hylian as well. Some argue that Din looks more Gerudo-ish and therefore use that as evidence that Din is a Gerudo Goddess by association but I disagree. While her skin is dark and she has red hair, Hylians can have a wide arrange of skin tones and hair color and besides, she has pointy ears and lacks a distinctly prominent Gerudo nose.
Posted Image
And finally in TP, which seems to reference back to their ALttP potrayal.

As for statues with long tonues, I don't know what you're talking about unless you're referring to the statues in Stone Tower from MM, in which case I never really bought the whole Strone Tower being a big fat "Fuck You" to the Goddesses. They're just creepy statues nothing more. Unless I'm missing something.

All in all, they've been consistently potrayed as Hylian woman unless they've been intentionally simplified for symbolic purposes, such as in OoT. This just makes common sense since the Hylians are their chosen people and therefore would make the Hylians in their own image and likeness. The only other race they could resemble is... maybe the Oocca, since they're supposedly much closer to the Goddesses than even the Hylians but there's been no evidence of that whatsoever. One thing's for sure, Din just isn't Gerudo. Din is a Hyrulean Goddess, and the Gerudo are not part of Hyrule. They're fringe society living on the borderlands betweem the fertile Hyrule and the desolate desert wastes. They've never been part of Hyrule proper and are either depicted as plundering invaders or peaceful nomads. Either way there'd be no reason for them to share the same religion as the people of Hyrule. THe Goddess of the Sands was probably their deity long before they even had any contact with Hyrule and their beliefs.

#35 SOAP

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:24 PM

double post

Edited by SOAP, 08 April 2011 - 12:24 PM.


#36 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:58 PM

These are the statues you were talking about in TWW, Yes Nayru does appaer to have fish-like ears but I think this is only maent to be thematic. Nayru is often associated with water so the ears make sense. Farore is associated with forests, plantlife, ect so she has flowers in her hair. Din is associated with fire and has more dragon-looking ears. But all of them look more-or-less Hylian to me. At the very least Nayru isn't exactly a Zora nor is Din a dragon in these depictions. Also it should be noted taht they bear passing resemblances to the Oracles that share their names below.


Actually, if you look closely, Din's "dragon wings" are above normal, rounded ears, so they're probably just hair decs like Farore's flowers. Most likely, Nayru's fish fins are the same and her ears are just behind it or something.

#37 FDL

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 02:11 PM

@SOAP: I don't really agree with you totally. First of all, the Oracles are not, as far as we know, actual representations of the goddesses and may not even be from Hyrule, they seem to be from Labrynna and Holodrum. Secondly, the statues all have ears that aren't like those of the Hylians one way or the other. And finally, whether or not they're portrayed that way by the Hylians, it doesn't mean they actually are just superpowerful Hylians or anything like that. And I don't agree with that Stone Tower theory either, I was talking about the statues in TP. But now that you mention it, maybe those aren't supposed to be tongues and are instead supposed to be their breath like in the ALttP manual. Also, even if they're of a separate country, I think the Gerudo were created by the Goddesses as well, which is why I think them having their own related mythology to Hyrule's is a possibility. But one can't be sure.

#38 SOAP

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:26 PM

These are the statues you were talking about in TWW, Yes Nayru does appaer to have fish-like ears but I think this is only maent to be thematic. Nayru is often associated with water so the ears make sense. Farore is associated with forests, plantlife, ect so she has flowers in her hair. Din is associated with fire and has more dragon-looking ears. But all of them look more-or-less Hylian to me. At the very least Nayru isn't exactly a Zora nor is Din a dragon in these depictions. Also it should be noted taht they bear passing resemblances to the Oracles that share their names below.


Actually, if you look closely, Din's "dragon wings" are above normal, rounded ears, so they're probably just hair decs like Farore's flowers. Most likely, Nayru's fish fins are the same and her ears are just behind it or something.

I was thinking hair decs as well. It's similar to Zelda's too in that same respect. I'm not sure if Din's ears are rounded though. It looks like that's just the lowest part of the "dragon wing" hair acessorry.

Edit: I looked at it again. Whether they're round or not, they're the same as Farore's. Hard to tell if ears are round or not in TWW's art style. The points are more subtle.


@SOAP: I don't really agree with you totally. First of all, the Oracles are not, as far as we know, actual representations of the goddesses and may not even be from Hyrule, they seem to be from Labrynna and Holodrum. Secondly, the statues all have ears that aren't like those of the Hylians one way or the other. And finally, whether or not they're portrayed that way by the Hylians, it doesn't mean they actually are just superpowerful Hylians or anything like that. And I don't agree with that Stone Tower theory either, I was talking about the statues in TP. But now that you mention it, maybe those aren't supposed to be tongues and are instead supposed to be their breath like in the ALttP manual. Also, even if they're of a separate country, I think the Gerudo were created by the Goddesses as well, which is why I think them having their own related mythology to Hyrule's is a possibility. But one can't be sure.

Well first of all, I didn't say the Oracles are accurate representations of the Goddesses. Only that the statues of the Goddesses bear passing resemblance to the Oracles which I provided as well for comparison purposes only. Secondly, I'm not suggesting that the Goddesses are just super-powered Hylian women, only that's the most common representation of them so far therefore that's what I think the creators intended them to look like. They're not actually Hylian no more than Zeus is a Greek man shooting lightning bolts from the sky or Odin is some raelly, really old viking dude or Yahweh is a Jew who likes to flood stuff when he gets pissed. Could other races see the Goddesses as more closey resembling themselves? I guess. THere has been no evidence of that though. You never see a Zora Nayru or Goron Din for that matter. The latter would be kinda bizarre... But even if they do, there's no raeson, as far as I can tell, why the Gerudo would do that, since the Goddesses are from the Hyrulean religion, and the Gerudo are kinda outsiders of almost everything having to do with Hyrule, and if Ganon's speech in TWW reflects Gerudo sentimentality in any way, they'd probably scorn anything having to do with Hyrule and it's gods. Even if they don't what's wrong with a group of people on the borderlands having their own distinct religion that has nothing to do with Hyrule's Golden Goddesses? They're a nomadic race, therefore most likely had their own religion well before they had any contact with Hyrule.

Edit: I mean at most, if you were to say the Golden Goddesses are a more universal concept like how "God" is in our world, then yeah I guess you could say the Gerudo would draw parallels between their goddess and Din through syncretism. However, you could draw the same parallels with Nayru. The Goddess of the Sands is often depicted with a snake, and Nayru is assocaited with snakes via Lanayru and the Water Temple in OoT (water being Nayru's element) has a snake as it's motif. Aaaaaannnnd, the desert is awfully close to Lake Hylia, depending on which maps you use. So.... I mean if we're going to grasp at straws let's be fair and not rule anything out here either.

Edited by SOAP, 09 April 2011 - 01:23 AM.


#39 FDL

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 10:16 AM

It's hardly grasping at straws when I'm not advocating that it's true, just that it could be and that it'd make some sense.

#40 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 12:16 PM

Even if you're not advocating it, drawing the logic on flimsy basis is still grasping straws.

#41 FDL

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:12 PM

How is it any more grasping at straws than saying the Gerudo would have nothing to do with even their own creators just because they share them with Hyrule? Or that they must look like Hylians because of vague statues and drawings based on them, and thus wouldn't be given any note amongst the Gerudo? The whole damn motivation of Ganondorf hinges on the idea that they do very much believe in the mythology of Hyrule. "Grasping" would imply I'm acting assured that it must be true or that I'm claiming something proves it. I am not. At all. I've literally not mentioned any so-called proof, merely said it was possible and that none of those likenesses of the Gods really indicate otherwise.

#42 SOAP

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:01 PM

@FDL:

Here:


What did the King of Hyrule say? ...That the gods sealed Hyrule away? And they left behind people who would one day awaken Hyrule?! How ridiculous... So many pathetic creatures, scattered across a handful of islands, drifting on this sea like fallen leaves on a forgotten pool... What can they possibly hope to achieve? Don't you see? All of you... Your gods destroyed you!

Emphasis mine. At the very least it shows Ganondorf does not have faith in the Goddesses despite acknowledging their existence. We don't know much about what the other Gerudo believe other than some sided with him and some, like Nabooru, were against him.

This is what we do know about the Goddess of the Sands (Speculations in paranthesis):
  • She's a female personification of the desert.
  • If the statue is supposed to represent her, she looks to be Gerudo.
  • Snakes, mirrors, and flames seem to be her motif. Mostly Snakes.
  • Her temple is the Spirit Temple. (It's also shaped likea woman's ovaries, possibily making her a fertility Goddess of sorts that the Gerudo try to appaese so they may give birth to the next Gerudo male.)
  • Her temple is the secret headquarters for Koume and Kotake, witches who weild fire and ice. (This one's interesting since you could say Kotake gets her fire power from Din but if you go by Ganon's speech in TWW, their powers reflect the dual harshness of the desert fiery hot days and chilly icy nights. Therefore both powers could be derived from the same Goddess).
  • If the Nintendo Power Player's Guide has any merit of canon, her temple was built by the ancestors of the Gerudo who were female masons and engineers.)


This is what we know about Din:
  • She is one of three creator deities
  • Has been potrayed as Hylian and as a vaguely humanoid female shape made of gold. If anything, she has never once been potrayed as something that her sisters are not.
  • She's associated with fire, earth, and raw power. Nothing ties her with snakes or mirrors though.
  • She is revered by the Hylian people, but that doesn't exclude other races of Hyrule, such as the Gorons and the Rito, from regarding her as their patron goddess since they're entrusted with relics associated with her. Nothing of the sort has linked the Gerudo to her though.

This is what we know of Nayru:
  • She is one of three creator deities
  • Has been potrayed as Hylian and as a vaguely humanoid female shape made of gold. If anything, she has never once been potrayed as something that her sisters are not.
  • She's associated with water, the laws of physic, wisdom, and possibly time. Time as a concept has been linked to sand, such as the Sands of Hours in PH and how sand in the rael world is used to measure time. She also linked to sanked via Lanyru being a giant serpent and the water temple having snake statues. Snakes in the real world are associated with wisdom in Greek mythology.
  • She is revered by the Hylian people, but that doesn't exclude other races of Hyrule, such as the Zora, from regarding her as their patron goddess since they're entrusted with relics associated with her. Nothing of the sort has linked the Gerudo to her though.

This is what we know of Farore:
  • She is one of three creator deities
  • Has been potrayed as Hylian and as a vaguely humanoid female shape made of gold. If anything, she has never once been potrayed as something that her sisters are not.
  • She's associated with wind, forests, courage, and is said to have a great spirit that breathed life into all living beings. (The Goddess of the Sand's Temple is a the Spirit Temple.... hmm...)
  • She is revered by the Hylian people, but that doesn't exclude other races of Hyrule, such as the Kokiri and the Koroks, from regarding her as their patron goddess since they're entrusted with relics associated with her. Nothing of the sort has linked the Gerudo to her though.

What we know of Hyrule's Religion:
  • It's polytheistic, seemingly drawing inspiration from real world mythologies such as Greek, Egyptian, and Shinto.
  • The Golden Goddesses are major craetor deities but other gods are recognized and venerated, such as the Wind Gods Zephos and Cyclos.
  • Further more, each tribe in Hyrule seems to have it's own exclusive diety such as the Zora praying to Lord Jabu Jabu, but it's possible they pray the Golden Goddesses as well since they're entrusted with their relics.
  • The Gerudo also have their own Goddess but have never been entrusted with any of the Golden Goddesses' relics. The only thing tht ties them to Hyrule is the Sage of Spirit and the Spirit Medallion. Which Goddess these correspond to is anyone's guess seeing as there's six of these and three Goddesses.

All in all, their are some parallels but you if were link the Goddess of the Sands with Din, you make the same arguement for any of the other three. It's easier to just go by what we do know and say she's the Gerudo's own specific Goddess.

Edited by SOAP, 09 April 2011 - 07:28 PM.


#43 FDL

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:21 PM

The NP guide said the Gerudo's ancestors were masons? That's pretty interesting in that it's consistent with some of the things said in FSA about the Gerudo IIRC. And Din was kind of a mason herself(just kidding). Do you know where I could check out the scans from that one or something? I seem to recall a topic about it being around a long time ago but I can't find it.

As for the Goddess thing, I'm not trying to say I think there's solid evidence one way or the other. Just that it's a possibility. And I think the Gerudo must have been created by the Goddesses, the kingdom of Hyrule doesn't appear to be all they created and Ganondorf's desire is to have their power. Being worshiped as a God oneself and then obtaining the power of the gods doesn't seem too conducive to being a pious man, but still. They seem to have some relation to the Goddesses so worshiping a deity which turns out to be one of the main three wouldn't be too strange. *shrugs*

#44 SOAP

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 08:20 PM

The NP guide said the Gerudo's ancestors were masons? That's pretty interesting in that it's consistent with some of the things said in FSA about the Gerudo IIRC. And Din was kind of a mason herself(just kidding). Do you know where I could check out the scans from that one or something? I seem to recall a topic about it being around a long time ago but I can't find it.

As for the Goddess thing, I'm not trying to say I think there's solid evidence one way or the other. Just that it's a possibility. And I think the Gerudo must have been created by the Goddesses, the kingdom of Hyrule doesn't appear to be all they created and Ganondorf's desire is to have their power. Being worshiped as a God oneself and then obtaining the power of the gods doesn't seem too conducive to being a pious man, but still. They seem to have some relation to the Goddesses so worshiping a deity which turns out to be one of the main three wouldn't be too strange. *shrugs*


Well that's the odd thing about the Zelda's mythos. The way the creation myth goes, it's as if Hyrule is supposed to encompass the whole known world, not just the Kingdom. The word Hyrule gets used interchangeably [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] between talking about the whole world to a specific region on the world. We know the former can't be true at least because other lands in the world are said to be outside Hyrule such as Ordona, Holodrum, Labrynna, ect. I never understood why Hyrule's craetion myth talks about the Goddesses forging Hyrule out of chaos and not the whole world. Maybe they only molded a specific patch of land of a pre-existing planet to their liking (cue Chariot of the Gods conspiracy theories!). However the latter seems too silly and maybe they meant to say the whole world, not Hyrule. Unless Hyrule s both the name of the planet and the Kingdom (Kinda like an Earth Kingdom on planet Earth)? *shrugs too*

As I said earlier, it MAY be possible that the Gerudo, after the fact, probably linked their Goddess with Din through syncretism.... Buuuuut. Occam Razor's prevents me from assuming the Goddess of the Sands has anything to to do with Din. It could be possible that some Gerudo worship the Goddess of the Sands AND the Golden Goddesses but that's the extent of it until something more concrete ties Din with the Gerudo.

#45 Fin

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 08:34 PM

Probably Hyrule's lore just recounts the creation of the world as the creation of Hyrule. My understanding is that Japanese mythology regarded the islands of Japan as the world, so I imagine the Zelda writers were just being consistent with the emphasis on Japan in the Kuniumi legend.

#46 SOAP

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

Probably Hyrule's lore just recounts the creation of the world as the creation of Hyrule. My understanding is that Japanese mythology regarded the islands of Japan as the world, so I imagine the Zelda writers were just being consistent with the emphasis on Japan in the Kuniumi legend.


Excellent point. I completely forgot about that.

So how do you think the Gerudo fit into all that? I wonder if at the time of OoT, Hyrule was severly isolated and it's people regarded it as the whole known world up until the Gerudo come from desert beyond Hyrule's western border and are like "Um yeah, you're not the only ones." Or maybe they were fully aware of other lands and Zelda's just intentionally keeping with ancient mythology which was similar to real-world Japans.

#47 FDL

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 12:50 AM

You guys really think the Goddesses only created a small kingdom? :huh: Well, if so, I disagree. But not really in the mood for a huge debate on it. Anyway, SOAP, hate to badger you but could you help me out with that NP guide?

#48 Fin

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:44 AM

Actually, I think the goddesses created the entire world, but Hylian lore only talks about Hyrule. Chosen people tend to be vain.

#49 SOAP

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:19 AM

You guys really think the Goddesses only created a small kingdom? :huh: Well, if so, I disagree. But not really in the mood for a huge debate on it. Anyway, SOAP, hate to badger you but could you help me out with that NP guide?


I'm not sure if the NP guide is canon but here's a wiki link on the Spirit Temple that quotes it.

Speaking of wikis I came across mentions of a Mountain Goddess in Spirit Tracks. If any goddess could be Din it could be her. In any case the Gorons pray to her and she's associated with Volcanic activity but I've got to question if anyone in New Hyrule even remembers the Golden Goddesses by this point. In TWW, the Triforce is nearly forgotten and distorted into the Triumph Forks.

Also, is FPTRR canon? Because if so, we might have our God of War.

#50 FDL

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 10:08 AM

Actually, I think the goddesses created the entire world, but Hylian lore only talks about Hyrule. Chosen people tend to be vain.


Ah, gotcha.


You guys really think the Goddesses only created a small kingdom? :huh: Well, if so, I disagree. But not really in the mood for a huge debate on it. Anyway, SOAP, hate to badger you but could you help me out with that NP guide?


I'm not sure if the NP guide is canon but here's a wiki link on the Spirit Temple that quotes it.

Speaking of wikis I came across mentions of a Mountain Goddess in Spirit Tracks. If any goddess could be Din it could be her. In any case the Gorons pray to her and she's associated with Volcanic activity but I've got to question if anyone in New Hyrule even remembers the Golden Goddesses by this point. In TWW, the Triforce is nearly forgotten and distorted into the Triumph Forks.

Also, is FPTRR canon? Because if so, we might have our God of War.


Yeah, I would think the big issue would be that it seems like no one remembers the Goddesses in New Hyrule, and the spirits of good would appear to have that place in the lore of the new land. However, I have to wonder what's up with this tribe of Gorons, whether they're supposed to have come from the old Hyrule like the merchants in TWW, and if so what they remember of the old land.




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