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TMC WAS suppose to be first


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#1 SOAP

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:18 PM

Okay this may be pretty old news by now, especially for those who frequent other Zelda sites (or lurk like I do :P) but I don't care. We need more actual storyline discussions here and as far I know, we haven't really talked about this particular subject that much. Okay, so apprently there's a few theories out there that TMC was originally suppose to be the origin story of not of Link's trademark cap but of Link's trademark sword. Well, Link's cap was enough to make some fans place TMC before OoT but it was a tough sale for most. However, if these theories are correct (and they actually make a lot of sense) it would had solidified TMC's placement as pre-OoT had it been the origin of the Master Sword, not the Four Sword. I retrospect, having actually played TMC it did seem like there was some last minute change to wedge the Four Sword into TMC's story. And none of the Four Sword's attributes are mentioned or shown visually in the Picori Blade's backstory. And the Picori Blade's origin as coming from race of sky beings sounds like what we know of the Skyward Sword.

Could it be that The Minish Cap WAS suppose to be Pre-OoT as the Master Sword's origin story, but then that element got scrapped (maybe Miyamoto upended the table again) and later reused in the upcoming Skyward Sword? Since the two games share the same director I think it's possible he would recycle an unused idea from a previous work. And what does this say about TMC's timeplacement since something that would strongly place it pre-OoT was instead thrown out? Could it be that TMC really was suppose to be first but there was a change of plan before it's release? And what of all the allusions to the FS games that keep popping up in canonically post-TWW games, like Force Gems, mentions of Force power flowing in Hylian princesses, ect? Is TMC (and the FS games by association) being retconned to the adult timeline?

Edited by SOAP, 06 September 2010 - 08:31 PM.


#2 Pinecove

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:29 PM

Yeah that's pretty much what I think.
Despite what themes TMC may have, Nintendo seems to be taking a more literal approach for the origin of the series.

#3 Jarsh

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:29 PM

I do think TMC was meant to be first, and I do think that it was originally meant to show the origins of the Master Sword. Nintendo probably wanted more emphasis on their Four Swords games, however, and probably made a last minute change to the Master Sword, making it the Four Sword. I think a lot of the leftover "origin" things about it such as Link's cap are leftover intent from that period of development. Whether the FS games take place on AT, I think it's a possibility at this point. Regardless, I think SS might be what TMC was supposed to be.

#4 Average Gamer

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:21 PM

It could be possible, though from what I've heard on ZU and this board, the potential Master Sword aspect of TMC didn't last too far into development. While SS could be the new earliest game, I'd rather wait until SS is released before making any theories about it. I've seen too many people jump the gun and make theories along the lines of "Zelda's robe means she's evil" and "Ganon is the Demon Train", which were torn to shreds by TP and ST respectively. Aonuma's final word on a game is important as well, and some things might change in development. After all, Aonuma once said that TP was going to fit betweeen OoT and TWW while it was being created, and that certainly wasn't the case in the end.

#5 ganonlord6000

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:55 PM

It could be possible, though from what I've heard on ZU and this board, the potential Master Sword aspect of TMC didn't last too far into development. While SS could be the new earliest game, I'd rather wait until SS is released before making any theories about it. I've seen too many people jump the gun and make theories along the lines of "Zelda's robe means she's evil" and "Ganon is the Demon Train", which were torn to shreds by TP and ST respectively. Aonuma's final word on a game is important as well, and some things might change in development. After all, Aonuma once said that TP was going to fit betweeen OoT and TWW while it was being created, and that certainly wasn't the case in the end.

I am tired of all of the SS theorizing threads. I'm fine with theories about existing games, but not a game that won't come out until April at the latest. Especially since many of the theories about ST were shot down shortly after the game's release. Like when the ocean realm was shown in one of the trailers.

I do think TMC was meant to be first, and I do think that it was originally meant to show the origins of the Master Sword. Nintendo probably wanted more emphasis on their Four Swords games, however, and probably made a last minute change to the Master Sword, making it the Four Sword. I think a lot of the leftover "origin" things about it such as Link's cap are leftover intent from that period of development


That would explain the pre-release logo with the MS, and why the Picori blade looks like the Master Sword.



#6 Snow

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

While I'm not against the possibility of MC's placement being retconned or disregarded because of SS, I'm fairly certain that MC was intended to be first even after its release. After all, it was clearly hinted at taking place far back in the past by various Zelda staff.

#7 ganonlord6000

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 01:52 PM

While I'm not against the possibility of MC's placement being retconned or disregarded because of SS, I'm fairly certain that MC was intended to be first even after its release. After all, it was clearly hinted at taking place far back in the past by various Zelda staff.


It sure was. The ending definitly implied that. Even the last couple of games seemed to point to it. But now with SS, I guess the intent of the Capcom games are being ignored, as TMC's story could fit after the WWS (Wind Waker saga) as well.

#8 Snow

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:53 PM


While I'm not against the possibility of MC's placement being retconned or disregarded because of SS, I'm fairly certain that MC was intended to be first even after its release. After all, it was clearly hinted at taking place far back in the past by various Zelda staff.


It sure was. The ending definitly implied that. Even the last couple of games seemed to point to it. But now with SS, I guess the intent of the Capcom games are being ignored, as TMC's story could fit after the WWS (Wind Waker saga) as well.


I wouldn't be so quick to move MC yet, though. I'd rather wait until SS comes out before jumping to any conclusions. Also, I prefer putting the Four Sword saga on the Child Timeline anyway, given the many implied connections between FSA and ALttP.

#9 Pinecove

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:13 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to move MC yet, though. I'd rather wait until SS comes out before jumping to any conclusions. Also, I prefer putting the Four Sword saga on the Child Timeline anyway, given the many implied connections between FSA and ALttP.


Except TP doesn't have connections to the FSS at all.

#10 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 02:01 PM

Does it matter? Being connected to one end is better than having no connections in either direction.

#11 Pinecove

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 02:33 PM

But the FSS does have connections to ST. You can insult and debate those connections all you want, but regardless, they're still connections.

#12 Snow

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 04:34 PM

But the FSS does have connections to ST. You can insult and debate those connections all you want, but regardless, they're still connections.


What connections, exactly? I don't recall any connections with the FSS and ST that aren't more than minor references without any real relevance to the timeline as a whole.

#13 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:28 PM

The list that Pinecove is most likely to give is this:

Force gems.
ST sets up for Tingle ( we don't see him on the CT, but we do see him in the ST credits.)
Geography.
Hero of Men connection.
Lokomo being reincarnated as Minish idea.

More or less. It might have changed since this was on page one out of 30+ where AG and Pinecove are still arguing about stuff right now.

#14 Person

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 12:02 AM

I think trying to stick the FS games on the AT is an exercise in futility.

Force gems

Which would appear before the Four Sword has even existed. This seems to create more problems than it solves.

ST sets up for Tingle ( we don't see him on the CT, but we do see him in the ST credits.)

Purlo was the TP version of Tingle. Tingle's first appearance was also on the CT (MM). And I doubt Nintendo is trying to tie together the whole timeline on a recurring character whose own games have no continuity with each other.

Geography


All geography arguments will boil down to "If you suspend disbelief and squint really hard, you can totally see it!"

Hero of Men connection

Where?

Lokomo being reincarnated as Minish idea

Just an idea. If anything, that was just a sequel hook for a post-ST game.

My current opinion is that if SS overrides the intent to make TMC first, then it's sort of in its own universe. The Capcom games links to the main games are tenuous at best, after all. If one was to construct a timeline of the Capcom games by themselves, it would probably go:

TMC-FS-FSA-OoS/OoA

#15 Snow

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:34 AM

Yeah, those are all pretty flimsy arguments. Eiji Aonuma explicitly said that the Force Gems were just a gameplay element, making them irrelevant to timeline theorising, and Tingle himself isn't seen in ST; only a statue of him is. And as for the FSS geography, the only obvious connection that can be made is the clear similarity between the maps of FSA and ALttP. The map similarities between MC and ST are minor at best.

#16 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:30 PM

But the FSS does have connections to ST. You can insult and debate those connections all you want, but regardless, they're still connections.


Yea, I'm aware, but let's see at what you most likely mean:

Force gems.
ST sets up for Tingle ( we don't see him on the CT, but we do see him in the ST credits.)
Geography.
Hero of Men connection.
Lokomo being reincarnated as Minish idea.


Force Gems, according to the plot, have always existed. Whether or not Link interacts with them, and especially given that the Force Gems exhibit wildly different possibilities, isn't an indication of chronology.

Ahem, Majora's Mask. Anyway, the use and reuse of characters isn't a timeline indicator given Nintendo's habit of recycling.

Worthless.

Elaboration needed.

Baseless fanfiction.

#17 Pinecove

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:19 PM

Force Gems, according to the plot, have always existed. Whether or not Link interacts with them, and especially given that the Force Gems exhibit wildly different possibilities, isn't an indication of chronology.


Except Force gems have never been used as energy for anything on the child timeline ans seem to onyl exist as life force. They're used all the time on the AT however...

Ahem, Majora's Mask. Anyway, the use and reuse of characters isn't a timeline indicator given Nintendo's habit of recycling.


MM takes place in another universe. Try again.

Elaboration needed.


Guards in ST wear green, the elder guards don't wear hats.

Baseless fanfiction.


Not as strong as some I'll give you that, but still possible as the lokomo WILL reincarnate some day.

An I haven't mentioned the Dark Mirror Twilight Mirror connection yet. :P
Regardless, I'm already having this debate on ZU. I'm not going to have it here too.

#18 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:22 PM

Except Force gems have never been used as energy for anything on the child timeline ans seem to onyl exist as life force. They're used all the time on the AT however...


This is only assuming that the Four Swords games are on the Adult Timeline. You're starting to use your speculations as arguments for further speculations. Point invalid.

MM takes place in another universe. Try again.


It's still a game on the Child Timeline. Deal with it.

Guards in ST wear green, the elder guards don't wear hats.


More likely a reference to the Hero of Winds being like one of the founders of the fucking country moreso than anything Hero of Men-related.

Not as strong as some I'll give you that, but still possible as the lokomo WILL reincarnate some day.


Still, absolutely no reason to assume Minish.

#19 Pinecove

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:21 PM

This is only assuming that the Four Swords games are on the Adult Timeline. You're starting to use your speculations as arguments for further speculations. Point invalid.


The point isn't invalidated at all as no force gems have EVER appeared on the child timeline. I don't CARE that they're only chrystalized force - I care that there's a focus of them on one timeline but not the other.

It's still a game on the Child Timeline. Deal with it.


Once again, its an alternate world and we're not even sure if Link made it back to Hyrule at the end of MM. Don't bend facts to suit your theories.

More likely a reference to the Hero of Winds being like one of the founders of the fucking country moreso than anything Hero of Men-related.


WELL DUH. Of coarse it's based on the fucking Hero of winds. But that doesn't mean it doesn't give us an explanation for the green garb the HoM wears sans the hat.

Still, absolutely no reason to assume Minish.


I'll give you that.

#20 Average Gamer

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:12 PM

[quote name='Pinecove' date='14 September 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1284520885' post='540921']The point isn't invalidated at all as no force gems have EVER appeared on the child timeline.[/quote]

Considering the placements of TMC and FS brought up by Nintendo, the gems can apparently fit before the split with no problem, so you really aren't making a point. The very nature of force gems allows them to have essentially existed anywhere from the beginning of time as well.

[quote name=Once again, its an alternate world and we're not even sure if Link made it back to Hyrule at the end of MM.[/quote]

We blatantly see Link back in Hyrule in MM's ending. He and Epona made it back to the Lost Woods, and quotes from TP suggest that OoT/MM Link lived out his life as a hero.

As for this Hero of Men stuff, ST shows that the hat isn't forgotten and the other guards at least have some sort of hat, so I don't see why the Hero of Men would lack one if he was a guard. As for the Minish, they are a mortal race that is skilled with magic, whereas the Lokomo were divine in their own right and there seem to have only been seven of them.

#21 Snow

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:55 AM

Once again, its an alternate world and we're not even sure if Link made it back to Hyrule at the end of MM. Don't bend facts to suit your theories.


I still don't see how a statue of Tingle that's more of an easter egg than anything else can be considered evidence for your theory. Or how MM being in an alternate dimension makes the inclusion of Tingle any less relevant, for that matter.

#22 Alastair

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:34 AM


Once again, its an alternate world and we're not even sure if Link made it back to Hyrule at the end of MM. Don't bend facts to suit your theories.


I still don't see how a statue of Tingle that's more of an easter egg than anything else can be considered evidence for your theory. Or how MM being in an alternate dimension makes the inclusion of Tingle any less relevant, for that matter.

I agree. If nothing else, the presence of Tingle in MM and tWW (games undeniably on seperate branches of the timeline, and as you point out one set in an alternate dimension) shows that the character is not exclusive to one timeline. You cannot ignore MM to suggest that Tingle's inclusion in a game is indicative of its placement.

#23 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:56 PM

The point isn't invalidated at all as no force gems have EVER appeared on the child timeline. I don't CARE that they're only chrystalized force - I care that there's a focus of them on one timeline but not the other.


If I put the Four Swords games on the Child Timeline, then they've appeared on the Child Timeline. Your argument only exists in the face of your theory. "X is in support of Theory Y, but X is only true BECAUSE of Theory Y." It's a fucking circular argument.

Once again, its an alternate world and we're not even sure if Link made it back to Hyrule at the end of MM. Don't bend facts to suit your theories.


It's still on the Child Timeline; what does it fucking matter whether or not it's in an alternate world? Does Link's Awakening no longer count as a Child Timeline game because it was a dream? How about Phantom Hourglass? Does that not count as an Adult Timeline game anymore because it's apparently in another world? Oh wait that's one of the Force Gem games you're trying to cite in the first argument. Looks like you just fucked your own reasoning in the ass.

WELL DUH. Of coarse it's based on the fucking Hero of winds. But that doesn't mean it doesn't give us an explanation for the green garb the HoM wears sans the hat.


The Hero of Men wears green because he's a Link. He doesn't wear a hat because he's apparently ruggedly handsome and badass and he has to not wear one so that TMC Link can have a hat without known precedent and create a spiritual echo theme. No explanation needed (this is exactly what I mean about people disregarding the intention of games in their self-contained narrative in order you dickinmouf them to place).

#24 SOAP

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:35 PM

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Y'all went and took over my thread. I don't even know where to start, lol. Well, as far as SS speculations go, I don't think it's that much of a wild speculation that SS might have something to do with TMC since it has the same director who has used elements of past games. And given how SS has been confirmed to be a origin story of sorts for the Master Sword and how that was TMC original intent before that story element got scrapped, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say SS may put to rest the whole TMC placement debate for good. At first I was hesitant to make such a guess before the game was released but now I think it's very likely it will tie up some loose ends TMC left behind.


I do think TMC was meant to be first, and I do think that it was originally meant to show the origins of the Master Sword. Nintendo probably wanted more emphasis on their Four Swords games, however, and probably made a last minute change to the Master Sword, making it the Four Sword. I think a lot of the leftover "origin" things about it such as Link's cap are leftover intent from that period of development. Whether the FS games take place on AT, I think it's a possibility at this point. Regardless, I think SS might be what TMC was supposed to be.


That's what I'm getting at. I think making a big deal about the Hero of Men being capless in unneccessary because the only image we have of him is the stain glass picture which has him holding a very Master Sword-looking Picori Blade. Which could just meant it's just another remnant of TMC original intent that got scrapped. It's never emphasized in the game, really. So why fuss over it?

Edited by SOAP, 15 September 2010 - 03:47 PM.


#25 Pinecove

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:22 PM

@Average Gamer: I'm already debating these points with you on ZU so I'm not going to reply to them here.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Y'all went and took over my thread. I don't even know where to start, lol. Well, as far as SS speculations go, I don't think it's that much of a wild speculation that SS might have something to do with TMC since it has the same director who has used elements of past games. And given how SS has been confirmed to be a origin story of sorts for the Master Sword and how that was TMC original intent before that story element got scrapped, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say SS may put to rest the whole TMC placement debate for good. At first I was hesitant to make such a guess before the game was released but now I think it's very likely it will tie up some loose ends TMC left behind.



I do think TMC was meant to be first, and I do think that it was originally meant to show the origins of the Master Sword. Nintendo probably wanted more emphasis on their Four Swords games, however, and probably made a last minute change to the Master Sword, making it the Four Sword. I think a lot of the leftover "origin" things about it such as Link's cap are leftover intent from that period of development. Whether the FS games take place on AT, I think it's a possibility at this point. Regardless, I think SS might be what TMC was supposed to be.


That's what I'm getting at. I think making a big deal about the Hero of Men being capless in unneccessary because the only image we have of him is the stain glass picture which has him holding a very Master Sword-looking Picori Blade. Which could just meant it's just another remnant of TMC original intent that got scrapped. It's never emphasized in the game, really. So why fuss over it?


I agree completely with your logic...but the question is that if TMC doesn't do first then does it go on the CT with the rest of the FSS or the adult timeline?

@MPS:

If I put the Four Swords games on the Child Timeline, then they've appeared on the Child Timeline. Your argument only exists in the face of your theory. "X is in support of Theory Y, but X is only true BECAUSE of Theory Y." It's a fucking circular argument.


Of the CONFIRMED games on the timeline, only PH and ST have force gems. TP or OoT or whatever does not. Deal with it and please NEVER accuse me of that logic again.

It's still on the Child Timeline; what does it fucking matter whether or not it's in an alternate world? Does Link's Awakening no longer count as a Child Timeline game because it was a dream? How about Phantom Hourglass? Does that not count as an Adult Timeline game anymore because it's apparently in another world? Oh wait that's one of the Force Gem games you're trying to cite in the first argument. Looks like you just fucked your own reasoning in the ass.


What the fuck are you talking about? LA is a dream not confirmed to fall on the CT, PH could be a variety of things and MM is an alternate world. Now please stop being rude to me.

The Hero of Men wears green because he's a Link. He doesn't wear a hat because he's apparently ruggedly handsome and badass and he has to not wear one so that TMC Link can have a hat without known precedent and create a spiritual echo theme. No explanation needed (this is exactly what I mean about people disregarding the intention of games in their self-contained narrative in order you dickinmouf them to place).


The hero of Men was most likely Swiftblade the first. And if we focus on the individual themes of the games that would make TMC first which it obviously isn't. If you can't have this discussion without acting like a 5 year old than I'm leaving. Go back and look at your posts. We're all on the same side and I am NOT your enemy.

@Snow:

I still don't see how a statue of Tingle that's more of an easter egg than anything else can be considered evidence for your theory. Or how MM being in an alternate dimension makes the inclusion of Tingle any less relevant, for that matter.


I'm saying there is no tingle on the CT in Hyrule whereas there is in Hyrule on the AT...also it isn't a statue. Please watch the credits.

#26 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:30 PM

My only tiny bit of input.

LA is a dream not confirmed to fall on the CT

It is however the confirmed sequel of ALttP, which is on the CT.

#27 Pinecove

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:40 PM

ALttP has a probability of being on the CT yes, but is not confirmed. This is what I hate - and just to clarify this isn't directed at anyone, it's just me stating things - I hate people who say theories are confirmed. Just because a majority agrees on something doesn't mean it's confirmed. ALttP is NOT confirmed to come on the CT and never has been.

#28 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:49 PM

No, it hasn't been confirmed on the CT. However, it cannot appear on the AT, due to the appearances of the MS & the Triforce, and probably some other reasons, that I don't recall.

Regardless, since it cannot appear on the AT, we place it on the CT.

Simple as that.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 15 September 2010 - 04:56 PM.


#29 Snow

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:56 PM

I'm saying there is no tingle on the CT in Hyrule whereas there is in Hyrule on the AT...also it isn't a statue. Please watch the credits.


I've watched the credits, and it's clearly a statue. Linebeck III has a Tingle statue in his shop; the ending credits shows this statue standing in the exact same place as the Tingle statue does in game, with same pose as the Tingle statue does in the game and with the exact same size (which is like, not even half the size of Link) as the Tingle statue. What exactly makes you think that it's not the same Tingle statue as the one shown in Linebeck's shop throughout the entire game?

#30 Pinecove

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:19 PM

No, it hasn't been confirmed on the CT. However, it cannot appear on the AT, due to the appearances of the MS & the Triforce, and probably some other reasons, that I don't recall.

Regardless, since it cannot appear on the AT, we place it on the CT.

Simple as that.


The sages had to "search for the existence" of the master sword during the seal war as it is lost/has not been seen in...a long time. Since it's known about at the end of TP, TWW actually sets up the Master Sword better for ALttP than TP does. Ad for the Triforce, that doesn't really provae anything. So no, it isn't simple as you put it.

I'm saying there is no tingle on the CT in Hyrule whereas there is in Hyrule on the AT...also it isn't a statue. Please watch the credits.


I've watched the credits, and it's clearly a statue. Linebeck III has a Tingle statue in his shop; the ending credits shows this statue standing in the exact same place as the Tingle statue does in game, with same pose as the Tingle statue does in the game and with the exact same size (which is like, not even half the size of Link) as the Tingle statue. What exactly makes you think that it's not the same Tingle statue as the one shown in Linebeck's shop throughout the entire game?


My mistake Snow, I just played ST again, I had never seen the statue of tingle previously. I thought it was just something in the credits...




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