65 replies to this topic

[Person]

Masamune, on Aug 1 2009, 11:18 PM, said:

The Wario series is a spinoff of the Mario series, yet that remains very much in the Mario 'canon'. The Donkey Kong series isn't that far out of the Mario canon either, though there are some contradicting information (but there was contradictory information in the DKC series by itself). And it's not assumed that the DK in the Mario sports series is the Arcade one. In fact, he's been referred to as separate to the Arcade Donkey Kong. Mario Superstar Baseball comes to mind here. In any case, the Mario series is a terrible one to draw a parallel, because it's even messier than the Zelda series is. A better example are spinoffs like Frasier from Cheers, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine from Star Trek: The Next Generation, Stargate: Atlantis from Stargate: SG-1, and so forth. How does a spinoff render something noncanon? Is Stargate Atlantis not canon to the Stargate universe?

The Tingle games aren't comparable to Link's Crossbow Training or Super Smash Bros. Hell, even those two games aren't comparable to eachother. Link's Crossbow Training is canon insofar as Metroid Prime Pinball is. It's a simplification of another game (in this case Twilight Princess), portrayed in a different style. Super Smash Bros. is simply a crossover game, better compared to Soul Calibur II. The Tingle games, however, follow a major character from the Zelda series into his own series of games, much like Wario. The connections are loosely defined, but it still features some cameos of major Zelda characters (the Great Deku Tree comes to mind).

The difference is that with the Stargate and Star Trek examples, they attempt to maintain consistency with the parent series, while Tingle does not.

[Masamune]

GuardianNinja, on Aug 2 2009, 03:18 PM, said:

How isnt OoT and MM consistent???????????!! Your reasoning?

After he defeats ganon in OoT he reverts to a kid and isnt recognized by guys who thought he would be bigger, and then he heads into the lost woods and winds up in termina, at no point is it inconsistent.

He's talking about the manga and not the games, but I don't know what the inconsistencies are there.

Person, on Aug 2 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

Masamune, on Aug 1 2009, 11:18 PM, said:

The Wario series is a spinoff of the Mario series, yet that remains very much in the Mario 'canon'. The Donkey Kong series isn't that far out of the Mario canon either, though there are some contradicting information (but there was contradictory information in the DKC series by itself). And it's not assumed that the DK in the Mario sports series is the Arcade one. In fact, he's been referred to as separate to the Arcade Donkey Kong. Mario Superstar Baseball comes to mind here. In any case, the Mario series is a terrible one to draw a parallel, because it's even messier than the Zelda series is. A better example are spinoffs like Frasier from Cheers, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine from Star Trek: The Next Generation, Stargate: Atlantis from Stargate: SG-1, and so forth. How does a spinoff render something noncanon? Is Stargate Atlantis not canon to the Stargate universe?

The Tingle games aren't comparable to Link's Crossbow Training or Super Smash Bros. Hell, even those two games aren't comparable to eachother. Link's Crossbow Training is canon insofar as Metroid Prime Pinball is. It's a simplification of another game (in this case Twilight Princess), portrayed in a different style. Super Smash Bros. is simply a crossover game, better compared to Soul Calibur II. The Tingle games, however, follow a major character from the Zelda series into his own series of games, much like Wario. The connections are loosely defined, but it still features some cameos of major Zelda characters (the Great Deku Tree comes to mind).

The difference is that with the Stargate and Star Trek examples, they attempt to maintain consistency with the parent series, while Tingle does not.

Care to provide an example? Nevermind the fact the Zelda series can't even maintain consistency from one game to the next.

[SOAP]

Every game and every comic is canon. Even those horrendous fanfics fans shit out are canon.

The TV show is canon too. Link really does talk. His "Excuuuuuse me Princess" line just got so annoying Zelda put a spell on him to keep him mute.

There, now everyone's happy. (I'm a bit drunk right now)

Edited by SOAP, 02 August 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[GuardianNinja]

Masamune, on Aug 2 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

He's talking about the manga and not the games, but I don't know what the inconsistencies are there.

Me too.

[joeymartin64]

Quote

In DK64 its revealed within 10 minutes of gameplay that Kranky is DK's dad.

Yet he's referred to as his grandson in the SNES games... and this wasn't changed in the post-DK64 GBA remakes. The bottom line is that the games aren't consistent on this point.

[MikePetersSucks]

GuardianNinja, on Aug 3 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

Masamune, on Aug 2 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

He's talking about the manga and not the games, but I don't know what the inconsistencies are there.

Me too.

Have you read them?

[GuardianNinja]

GuardianNinja, on Aug 2 2009, 03:18 PM, said:

After he defeats ganon in OoT he reverts to a kid and isnt recognized by guys who thought he would be bigger, and then he heads into the lost woods and winds up in termina, at no point is it inconsistent.

Gee I dunno, someone who read it musta got my password and posted events from it!

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm just saying, since aside from the ending, there's still lots of inconsistent crap., such as Link's personality, and recounting certain parts of OOT differently in MM, and such.

And gee, you quoted me events of OOT's game ending. You definitely read the manga for sure.

[GuardianNinja]

GuardianNinja, on Aug 2 2009, 03:18 PM, said:

After he defeats ganon in OoT he reverts to a kid and isnt recognized by guys who thought he would be bigger, and then he heads into the lost woods and winds up in termina, at no point is it inconsistent.[/b]

That isnt in the game -___-

[Masamune]

Actually, that has me curious, since I never read any of the manga. Does the OoT manga end with the idea that Link was age regressed to his original age (since people don't recognize him) as opposed to going back to his original time?

[GuardianNinja]

They send him back in time, but It seems that people know that you are a hero, they just assume your bigger from word of mouth.

[joeymartin64]

That was in the MM manga, though, implying that kid Link made a name for himself afterward.

[TheAvengerLever]

joeymartin64, on Aug 3 2009, 02:55 AM, said:

Quote

In DK64 its revealed within 10 minutes of gameplay that Kranky is DK's dad.

Yet he's referred to as his grandson in the SNES games... and this wasn't changed in the post-DK64 GBA remakes. The bottom line is that the games aren't consistent on this point.

I got banned at the DK Vine for arguing this with them. Yes. What a dumb shit way to get banned.

[Masamune]

The DK Vine is amusing to read, not so much to post at.

[joeymartin64]

I've lurked at DK Vine for quite a while now, though I've never registered. They've provided me with some pretty good entertainment, especially during the build-up to Brawl. Good times, good times.

Edited by joeymartin64, 06 August 2009 - 02:17 AM.

[bjamez7573]

Ok, I don't know that I am following the current conversation so far, so I'll just post what games I think are canon (and the ranking of canon, i.e. which canon deserves more weight than others)

I think that the highest level of canon are the Japanese versions of the games. After that, the American versions are second in line. This includes their manuals unless the they contradict a fact in the game. These games include:

LOZ
AOL
GBA ALTTP
LA
OOA
OOS
OOT
MM
TP
WW
PH
FSA
FS
TMC

Although not games, creator quotes take third in line as canon.

What I don't consider canon:

SNES ALTTP (game and manual, American and Japanese versions) as the GBA is a remake and therefore the old SNES ALTTP is replaced
CDI games (LOL, these have the worst cut-scenes ever, but they are hilarious)
Spin-off games that don't really have a story as one of the focuses of the game.

Questionable Canon:

BS Zelda Satalleview games. These are questionable in that they were not widespread everywhere, they are only in Japan. Even though these are officially developed games be Nintendo, why would they count something as canon that not everyone could enjoy?

Tingle games, now that Masamune brought it up

Mind you, I am not an expert on all of the Zelda games or the reasons they shouldn't be canon, so I could be persuaded to include more games into this list.

Masamune, I am interested to hear your reasons for including the Tingle games as canon.

[Masamune]

I shouldn't think that the burden of proof of arguing Tingle's games being canon should rest on me. The games exist and are licensed by Nintendo, so shouldn't people making arguments for them to NOT be canon? It would seem to me that they would, by default, be considered canon until proven otherwise.

[Person]

Masamune, on Aug 9 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

I shouldn't think that the burden of proof of arguing Tingle's games being canon should rest on me. The games exist and are licensed by Nintendo, so shouldn't people making arguments for them to NOT be canon? It would seem to me that they would, by default, be considered canon until proven otherwise.

They don't seem to take place in the Zelda Universe. The first game has a popular Japanese comedian show up, and the upcoming one starts with Tingle being sucked into a TV and starring in a dating show.

[Masamune]

The games have plenty of references to the Zelda series. You have Tingle himself, you have the Great Fairy and other fairies showing up, you have the Great Deku Tree showing up, you have Rupees galore, you have the Stalfos pirates, and you have plenty of monsters that would easily fit into the Zelda universe.

The Foremen are based loosely on Hard Gay, but that's it. It's a cameo that is of no more relevance than Mr. Wright appearing in Link's Awakening. Being sucked into a TV is no more bizarre than traveling into a dream world or parallel dimension.

[Person]

Masamune, on Aug 9 2009, 11:31 PM, said:

The games have plenty of references to the Zelda series. You have Tingle himself, you have the Great Fairy and other fairies showing up, you have the Great Deku Tree showing up, you have Rupees galore, you have the Stalfos pirates, and you have plenty of monsters that would easily fit into the Zelda universe.

The Foremen are based loosely on Hard Gay, but that's it. It's a cameo that is of no more relevance than Mr. Wright appearing in Link's Awakening. Being sucked into a TV is no more bizarre than traveling into a dream world or parallel dimension.

A TV, however, is one of those things that is simply out-of-place in the Zelda universe. The various easter egg cameos in Link's Awakening were obviously there because it was a dream world and did not have to adhere to the "medieval stasis" level of technology that the rest of the Zelda Universe has exhibited. The most advanced thing we've seen outside of Link's Awakening was a camera. Suddenly jumping into television, which was invented only about 70 years ago, and dating shows (which weren't popularized until the 1990s) along with other stuff like laptop computers makes it seem like the series is moving away from its Zelda roots, with the Deku Tree and such acting as mere cameos. The game was also not developed by Nintendo, only published by them.

And if we're going to make the Tingle games canon with the main series, then we'd have to make Link's Crossbow Training canon, too. Shigeru Miyamoto was even directly involved in that one. It's got more claim to canon that the Tingle games do.


Of course if you read between the lines here the real reason I don't consider the Tingle games canon is because I think Tingle's an annoying little git. Sort of like how everybody invents reasons why the CD-i games aren't canon but the real reason is that they sucked.

[MikePetersSucks]

Guys, the Tingle games take place in the Windfish's dream world. Relax.

[Showsni]

Well, colour photogrpahy didn't exist until 1861. Practical television is what, the 1920s? Of course, TWW has the Tingle Tuner... GBAs weren't around until 2001. The phonograph is from 1877. And other anachronisms.

If they set a Zelda game in the modern day, would it not be canon?

[Masamune]

And let's not forget the train.

And Link's Crossbow Training absolutely can be canon, since it's little more than a reinterpretation of events from Twilight Princess, presented in an arcade style. It's only disregarded because it has no story. But neither does Tingle's Balloon Fight.

[bjamez7573]

Masamune, on Aug 9 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

I shouldn't think that the burden of proof of arguing Tingle's games being canon should rest on me. The games exist and are licensed by Nintendo, so shouldn't people making arguments for them to NOT be canon? It would seem to me that they would, by default, be considered canon until proven otherwise.

I guess the reason I ask this is because I haven't played the games and they seemed to be treated more like a spin-off than really part of the main series (as I haven't heard of them until I joined this forum, and usually I try to keep up on when the newest Zelda games are coming out). I don't even know who made them or what they are about. I assume storyline is an important part of the games? or are they just a game like Link's Crossbow Training?

Person, on Aug 9 2009, 11:07 PM, said:

Masamune, on Aug 9 2009, 11:31 PM, said:

The games have plenty of references to the Zelda series. You have Tingle himself, you have the Great Fairy and other fairies showing up, you have the Great Deku Tree showing up, you have Rupees galore, you have the Stalfos pirates, and you have plenty of monsters that would easily fit into the Zelda universe.

The Foremen are based loosely on Hard Gay, but that's it. It's a cameo that is of no more relevance than Mr. Wright appearing in Link's Awakening. Being sucked into a TV is no more bizarre than traveling into a dream world or parallel dimension.

A TV, however, is one of those things that is simply out-of-place in the Zelda universe. The various easter egg cameos in Link's Awakening were obviously there because it was a dream world and did not have to adhere to the "medieval stasis" level of technology that the rest of the Zelda Universe has exhibited. The most advanced thing we've seen outside of Link's Awakening was a camera. Suddenly jumping into television, which was invented only about 70 years ago, and dating shows (which weren't popularized until the 1990s) along with other stuff like laptop computers makes it seem like the series is moving away from its Zelda roots, with the Deku Tree and such acting as mere cameos. The game was also not developed by Nintendo, only published by them.

And if we're going to make the Tingle games canon with the main series, then we'd have to make Link's Crossbow Training canon, too. Shigeru Miyamoto was even directly involved in that one. It's got more claim to canon that the Tingle games do.

I disagree. Simply being "out of place" with previous zelda titles doesn't necessarily mean that they are considered non-canon. They will always be trying to find new ways to put Link and Zelda in the Zelda World. There may eventually be a Zelda game with a more modern day world.

Person, on Aug 9 2009, 11:07 PM, said:

Of course if you read between the lines here the real reason I don't consider the Tingle games canon is because I think Tingle's an annoying little git. Sort of like how everybody invents reasons why the CD-i games aren't canon but the real reason is that they sucked.

Couldn't have described Tingle better myself

[Person]

I suppose I should say why I don't consider the Tingle games canon, instead of trying to remain objective about it.

They were developed by Vanpool, not Nintendo, and do not make any effort to fit into the Zelda mythos. Unlike AST, they cannot be placed in any sort of coherent timeline involving the other games. I also hate Tingle.

There's also the "slippery slope problem." If the Tingle games are canon, then Link's Crossbow Training and the Super Smash Bros. games are canon as well.

The bare minimum standards I consider for canon is that it has to have a big fat "The Legend of Zelda" in the title (Zelda II still counts, even though the words "Legend of" are not in the title).

I suppose one could include the Tingle games in the canon, but they provide absolutely nothing worthwhile for timeline debaters.

[Masamune]

Person, on Aug 10 2009, 08:28 PM, said:

They were developed by Vanpool, not Nintendo

Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, and The Minish Cap aren't canon. Check. (That makes timelines a little easier)

Quote

and do not make any effort to fit into the Zelda mythos. Unlike AST, they cannot be placed in any sort of coherent timeline involving the other games. I also hate Tingle.

They're spinoffs. They build their own mythos that branches off the Zelda mythos. Wario and Donkey Kong each have their own mythos, but they are still part of the same universe.

Quote

There's also the "slippery slope problem." If the Tingle games are canon, then Link's Crossbow Training and the Super Smash Bros. games are canon as well.

That's a ridiculous argument to make. I already said LCT can be canon if you want it to, but there's no reason to consider the SSB games as canon. Unlike the Tingle games, they don't take place in the same world or even attempt to. They are intentionally meant to be crossover games. It's the same reason why Darth Vader can appear in Soul Calibur IV, but not be considered part of the Star Wars canon.

Quote

The bare minimum standards I consider for canon is that it has to have a big fat "The Legend of Zelda" in the title (Zelda II still counts, even though the words "Legend of" are not in the title).

That's certainly your prerogative, though it operates on weak reasoning. Is The Hobbit not part of the Lord of the Rings canon?

Quote

I suppose one could include the Tingle games in the canon, but they provide absolutely nothing worthwhile for timeline debaters.

I once proposed that Tingle's Rupeeland provided excellent evidence for the "New Hyrule" theory that suggests the Great Deku Tree attempts to tie the islands together into one, evidenced by the presence of the Great Deku Tree (with the same design as the TWW one) set in a series of very large islands that are very close together... almost as if they were being pulled back together by the Great Deku Tree's plan.

[Person]

I've also seen people try to use it to explain Legend of the Fairy. If I wanted to, I could try to use LCT to justify a theory. The simple fact is that the Tingle games don't really fit into the Zelda timeline because they were never meant to. Not being developed by Nintendo also affects that.

As for the "Is the Hobbit a part of the Lord of the Rings canon" question, that's not a fair comparison. LoTR was a sequel to the Hobbit from the beginning, and "Lord of the Rings" is really just one work in Tolkien's legendarium. The status of the canon outside of those two works is really even more debated than the Zelda canon, since most of them were finished by his son and purists might not consider them canon (Christopher Tolkien himself even admitted to making mistakes in Silmarillion, so later works like Children of Hurin don't exactly match up with it).

And if Smash Bros. is not canon because it is a crossover, why is Tingle canon then? One could argue that all of the Mario references in Zelda could point to a shared "Nintendo Multiverse."

Or they could both not be canon and the references to Zelda in Tingle could be Easter Eggs like the Mario references in Zelda. If anything, the announcement of a new Tingle game that's even further from its Zelda roots seems to confirm that Nintendo are thinking of Tingle like a separate franchise from Zelda now.

Edited by Person, 10 August 2009 - 08:27 PM.

[Masamune]

Even if they don't fit into the timeline (which is debatable), that has nothing to do with their status in canon. Sure, they may be of no use to timelines for some people, that doesn't automatically mean they are no longer part of the Zelda universe. They still are.

It may not be a fair comparison, but it's no less fair then comparing Super Smash Bros. to Tingle's Rupeeland. Simply dismissing an entry in a series because it does not follow certain conventions (such as the name) does not automatically exclude it from the canon.

Tingle RPG is meant to take place in the same world as the Zelda games. It does not feature cameos, but the actual inclusion of characters from the Zelda universe. Furthermore, it is presented in a way that suggests that it 'actually happens' within the confines of the world we're presented. The Smash Bros. series very clearly establishes that characters are trophies brought to life, rather than the actual inclusions of existing characters from various universes. If you really wanted to make a more challenging argument, then you'd bring up Link in Soul Calibur II. In this game he's provided with an actual backstory that suggests he might be the Link from A Link to the Past. Yet it's not canon. Why is that?

Link's presence in Soul Calibur II (or Smash Bros.) never has consequence in the Zelda universe. Likewise, the appearance of Spawn, Heihachi, Darth Vader, and Yoda never have any effects on their own universes. You might argue that Tingle's games have no consequence to the Zelda games and thus mean they are not canon either. However it is important to note that they have had an effect, to the extent that Tingle is no longer part of the Zelda series. Now that he has his own series, he no longer makes appearances in the Zelda games. He's not just making a cameo in some crossover games, because he now has the starring role. If Spider-Man introduces a character called Venom, he might receive a spinoff series and stop appearing in the Spider-Man comics, because he now has his own starring role. His comic series is still canon to the Spider-Man mythos, because his series has an effect on the Spider-Man series, namely by his lack of appearance. If Venom, however, appears in some crossover story instead (like Marvel vs. Capcom), he will still appear in Spider-Man comics without any repercussions on the Spider-Man universe.

[Person]

Masamune, on Aug 10 2009, 09:06 PM, said:

Even if they don't fit into the timeline (which is debatable), that has nothing to do with their status in canon. Sure, they may be of no use to timelines for some people, that doesn't automatically mean they are no longer part of the Zelda universe. They still are.

It may not be a fair comparison, but it's no less fair then comparing Super Smash Bros. to Tingle's Rupeeland. Simply dismissing an entry in a series because it does not follow certain conventions (such as the name) does not automatically exclude it from the canon.

Tingle RPG is meant to take place in the same world as the Zelda games. It does not feature cameos, but the actual inclusion of characters from the Zelda universe. Furthermore, it is presented in a way that suggests that it 'actually happens' within the confines of the world we're presented. The Smash Bros. series very clearly establishes that characters are trophies brought to life, rather than the actual inclusions of existing characters from various universes. If you really wanted to make a more challenging argument, then you'd bring up Link in Soul Calibur II. In this game he's provided with an actual backstory that suggests he might be the Link from A Link to the Past. Yet it's not canon. Why is that?

Link's presence in Soul Calibur II (or Smash Bros.) never has consequence in the Zelda universe. Likewise, the appearance of Spawn, Heihachi, Darth Vader, and Yoda never have any effects on their own universes. You might argue that Tingle's games have no consequence to the Zelda games and thus mean they are not canon either. However it is important to note that they have had an effect, to the extent that Tingle is no longer part of the Zelda series. Now that he has his own series, he no longer makes appearances in the Zelda games. He's not just making a cameo in some crossover games, because he now has the starring role. If Spider-Man introduces a character called Venom, he might receive a spinoff series and stop appearing in the Spider-Man comics, because he now has his own starring role. His comic series is still canon to the Spider-Man mythos, because his series has an effect on the Spider-Man series, namely by his lack of appearance. If Venom, however, appears in some crossover story instead (like Marvel vs. Capcom), he will still appear in Spider-Man comics without any repercussions on the Spider-Man universe.

Tingle never had an effect on the Zelda universe when he did appear. The biggest role he had was in TWW, and Purlo was supposed to be a realistically-rendered Tingle, so he did appear in TP, in a way. I suppose Tingle's games are canon in the same way Squirrel Girl is canon to the main Marvel Universe. Sure it might have technically happened, but it has no greater repercussions on the universe as a whole, and really only serves as a lighter or parodic take on the main universe.

[Masamune]

I can live with that. I just don't feel they should automatically be dismissed from canon forthright. I can understand not incorporating them, but I take issue with just saying they don't happen at all.