156 replies to this topic

[Fin]

Oh noesss! she offered to marry him in Four Swords! what will the kids be like?!

But... she didn't. Did she?

[Person]

Oh noesss! she offered to marry him in Four Swords! what will the kids be like?!

But... she didn't. Did she?

Doesn't she kiss him in AoL and OoX? But my favorite bit was in ALttP when the Uncle says "Zelda is your..." and everybody assumed he was going to say "sister."

[GuardianNinja]

Not the ending, but the beginning of the four swords/Lttp GBA game.

I think she did more than that in AoL/LoZ Person

[MikePetersSucks]

Yet something no more asinine like the flood subsiding and/or islands becoming part of a new land somehow isn't? We don't know where the line is, so it's totally possible.

I find it such because it requires successfully defying the will of the Goddesses, which doesn't strike me as possible.

It was very early in the plan.

Not at all. He and the Koroks have been doing this ritual every year, apparently as far back as the original deluge, so he's been at it a while. What, you think he just DECIDED to do this the moment Link showed up?

I don't doubt it. This is the Triforce. Up until then, it had been elaborately sealed away, so anyone with a hunk of it is probably taken pretty damn seriously.

I'm not denying that, but taking his story of an alternate history seriously, and having documentation OF that history as if someone besides this Hero of Time fellow actually experienced it, is not the same thing.

Of course they're celebrating. Ganondorf just effectively ate it, and he's been ruling them iron-fisted for the last seven years. Plus, it makes for a nice backdrop for the staff roll.

But if the scene is happening in a scenario where Link is changing history, then their celebration CAN NEVER HAPPEN because Link just instantly erased the entire future for the new one the moment he went back in time and closed the doors. Our vision of the Future should end with Zelda sending him back.

It never says that. He may simply be not tipping his enemy's hand to him. Notice how he seems not to give a shit about Link at all, despite having been owned by at least one Link no matter how you look at it. Mind games? Not saying this is confirmed, but it does make some sense.

Well, if you go from OOT's child history, then TP's backstory, then TP, then Ganondorf never confronted Link, making his behavior completely logical and in character. Instead of just suddenly deciding to act differently for no reason, and for some reason having slightly different motives, speaking characteristics, a lot less humility, etc.

To me, TP and TWW Ganondorf come off as almost entirely different people, to the point where I just can't see one progressing into the other without amnesia or something.

Also: why is it impossible for a Triforce-wised-back Hyrule to be the same as the old one? or for one drudged out of the water to have similar landmarks?

Reviving it with the Triforce is possible, though unlikely (impossible if it went back to the Sacred Realm), but you can't revive Hyrule just by draining out thewater. King Daphnes' wish was to "Wash away the land."

He's basically a god in TP (however the hell that happened). He may mistakenly believe it's just not strong enough to take him.

Ganondorf was lying out his ass when he said that.

Also, just because OOT Link and Zelda are sisters doesn't mean all their incarnations are. Otherwise there's a lot of inbreeding going on, and the family tree of TWW is a TANGLED MESS.

[joeymartin64]

I find it such because it requires successfully defying the will of the Goddesses, which doesn't strike me as possible.

I happen to see it differently, and I've provided possible scenarios that would allow this.

Not at all. He and the Koroks have been doing this ritual every year, apparently as far back as the original deluge, so he's been at it a while. What, you think he just DECIDED to do this the moment Link showed up?

In the same way the USA is a young country in the grand scheme after 200-odd years.

I'm not denying that, but taking his story of an alternate history seriously, and having documentation OF that history as if someone besides this Hero of Time fellow actually experienced it, is not the same thing.

Shit happens, Hero of Time wins the day with the Master Sword, vanishes through time. That's not exactly a lot of detail.

But if the scene is happening in a scenario where Link is changing history, then their celebration CAN NEVER HAPPEN because Link just instantly erased the entire future for the new one the moment he went back in time and closed the doors. Our vision of the Future should end with Zelda sending him back.

The vision after that scene shows Link arriving at the Temple of Time. That sucks as justification, I know, but I'm sticking with the "nice backdrop" thing.

To me, TP and TWW Ganondorf come off as almost entirely different people, to the point where I just can't see one progressing into the other without amnesia or something.

Being all crazy and shit doesn't quite work out in TWW, and he's somewhat more cautious and calculating afterward in TP.

Reviving it with the Triforce is possible, though unlikely (impossible if it went back to the Sacred Realm)...

Because nobody's ever been to the Sacred Realm before.

...but you can't revive Hyrule just by draining out thewater. King Daphnes' wish was to "Wash away the land."

I'm pretty sure I mentioned a shitload of time passing, allowing for repopulation, rebuilding, and the like.

Ganondorf was lying out his ass when he said that.

So you can decide when characters are lying, telling the truth, bluffing, ect.? Since when could he assume that freaky cloudy head form, possess people, or destroy Hyrule castle with a mere thought?

Edited by joeymartin64, 31 July 2009 - 03:32 PM.

[bjamez7573]

The problem is, the King said that the Hero of Time journeyed through time, and he said that he left. This has to be in the same timeline as WW and the adult timeline in OOT, as that is the only one where he left through time. Therefore, the adult timeline must exist because WW itself exists.

"Journeyed through time"=Returning to the child era in the ending. This would be included in what kid Link passes along.
"Left="Termina.
Problem solved.

Not quite:

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

He said clearly that the Hero of Time left by traveling through time. There is no way Link, who came back, would tell the king this when he was clearly present. This solidifies that the adult timeline must exist. And going by the ending of OOT, the child timeline must exist also, giving us a split timeline.

Not to mention:

His name is Ganondorf.

He obtained the power of the gods, planned on transforming the world into a Makai of darkness, and was sealed by the power of the gods.

The emperor of the Makai in the ancient legend is that Ganondorf.

do not know why the gods’ seal has broken, but, now that he has been revived, the world has once again begun to be threatened by his evil magical powers.
...........................................................
I couldn’t hold him back with my power. There was nothing to do but pray to the gods and entrust the fate of the kingdom to them… Hearing this, the gods sealed Ganon and Hyrule by sinking them to the bottom of the ocean with a great rain and flood.

He was clearly talking about his personal experience with Ganondorf coming back from the seal (the first time). This isn't just a legend that was passed down by child Link.

TP's Ganondorf did absolutely nothing about it. Given what he did in WW, he would be really stupid to not take measures against the Master Sword if he knew about its power.

He's basically a god in TP (however the hell that happened). He may mistakenly believe it's just not strong enough to take him.

He's considered a god by Zant, but not anyone else. Regardless of what anyone else thought of him, if he fought Link before, and was defeated by the Master Sword - He knows that it is strong enough to to take him. Therefore, he would have taken measures to ensure that the odds were in his favor - like he did in WW. However, he did nothing

I know that's your intention. I am just trying to understand why you would put the games in a single timeline (which requires events to happen that the games do not indicate) over putting them in a split timeline (which the games seem to indicate more). You said, shove them in an order that seems to fit. Why does a single timeline "seem to fit" better than a split? I mean, anyone can create any order of the games they wish if you make enough stuff up. I am not trying to be pushy, just curious to hear why you think the way you do as I haven't debated a single timeline theorist before.

First of all, I want to thank you for going about this respectfully. Second, I've stated my reasons for this, but I think I did so before you came into this.

Quotes, emphasis new:

I'm not trying to change your mind. In fact, more than anything else, I'm bouncing stuff off you just to make sure I didn't forget some detail that would make things completely impossible. I no longer care about a "true" timeline, as there isn't one. I just want one that's single-timeline, and isn't impossible, that I can hold as my own viewpoint. I have several fanwank theories about several properties that fall into the same "sure, why not?" category; I don't care if people espouse them, nor do I expect them to. It's just for fun.

We couldn't come to a real consensus even when there were only five or six games; there's no way in hell we're coming to one now. Thus, I gave up on finding a "right" answer, and decided to just come up with something I personally liked. You see, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself. Any way you want it, that's the way you need it.

And the biggest one:

And it has nothing to do with gameplay or feel. It's kinda similar to how a lot of Star Trek fans felt screwed by the new movie, since the reboot rendered all the previous media "illegitimate." I know that's not really the case, but that's how some people took it. It just feels cheap to me to know that some events happen in different universes, rather than being one unified series. And don't throw Termina or Koholint in my face; you know what I mean.

There's more than that, but that should cover it pretty well. And yes, I do like Journey.

Okay, I understand now. I did read those posts, but not carefully enough

[MikePetersSucks]

I happen to see it differently, and I've provided possible scenarios that would allow this.

See it as differently as you want, but the King made a wish on the Triforce that physically elimated the deluged land of Hyrule. If Hyrule is to be revived, it's through a new land being found/created.

In the same way the USA is a young country in the grand scheme after 200-odd years.

The loss of Hyrule is treated by the game as Not Recent, therefore the Deku Tree's plans, which were certainly started at around the same time, are also Not Recent.

Shit happens, Hero of Time wins the day with the Master Sword, vanishes through time. That's not exactly a lot of detail.

There's still the issue of Ganondorf REMEMBERING THAT HE FOUGHT LINK, which is impossible if the adult future was erased.

Being all crazy and shit doesn't quite work out in TWW, and he's somewhat more cautious and calculating afterward in TP.

No one else got to carry memories over reincarnations, I doubt Ganondorf got to.

Because nobody's ever been to the Sacred Realm before.

All the portals to the Sacred Realm are in Hyrule, which is under water and washed away, since Hyrule was the Holy Land where the Triforce was hidden. You can't get to the Sacred Realm through Calatia or Termina or anything.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned a shitload of time passing, allowing for repopulation, rebuilding, and the like.

Doesn't change the fact that there's nothing left under water to actually salvage.

So you can decide when characters are lying, telling the truth, bluffing, ect.? Since when could he assume that freaky cloudy head form, possess people, or destroy Hyrule castle with a mere thought?

I can know if a character is lying if, well, their information is WRONG. He assumed a freaky cloudy head form because it was the shape of his spirit. He possessed people because he has Black Magic, which is usually responsible for some of that crap, and he destroyed Hyrule Castle in an obviously-awesome-but-unshown Giant Monster Fight with Midna. He's not a god, he even says he was merely gifted with power by the Gods when you confront him. Hell, he never even actually says that he's a god; only Zant ever actually said so. Crazy guy must've started worshipping him, and Ganondorf took advantage of it.

[GuardianNinja]

MC>FSA\FS>LttP>LA>OoA\OoS>OoT>MM>TP>Wii>WW>PH>ST>LoZ>AoL

Sweep...

[joeymartin64]

He said clearly that the Hero of Time left by traveling through time.

Not necessarily. Could be two different events. Traveled through time, then left Hyrule. English is kinda vague that way. What does the Japanese say?

He was clearly talking about his personal experience with Ganondorf coming back from the seal (the first time). This isn't just a legend that was passed down by child Link.

The way I see it, this all happens after OoT Link has died a natural death, rendering the Hero of Time unable to return.

He's considered a god by Zant, but not anyone else. Regardless of what anyone else thought of him, if he fought Link before, and was defeated by the Master Sword - He knows that it is strong enough to to take him. Therefore, he would have taken measures to ensure that the odds were in his favor - like he did in WW. However, he did nothing

Since when could he assume that freaky cloudy head form, possess people, or destroy Hyrule castle with a mere thought?

He really could just think it's not up to how strong he's become. This is weak, I know.

Okay, I understand now. I did read those posts, but not carefully enough

It's a pretty important philosophical difference. I fully realize that everything everybody's said makes more sense than what I'm putting forth. The thing is, I don't care. I do not care about the "right" answer, and I won't unless and until Nintendo releases a sourcebook or something.

See it as differently as you want, but the King made a wish on the Triforce that physically elimated the deluged land of Hyrule. If Hyrule is to be revived, it's through a new land being found/created.

All the mystical magical stuff that's happened in Zelda, and somehow restoring something that's been underwater is impossible? Really?

The loss of Hyrule is treated by the game as Not Recent, therefore the Deku Tree's plans, which were certainly started at around the same time, are also Not Recent.

Nobody in-game or otherwise ever said that. Even so, the point still remains. Even if it did start at around the same time, it's likely a very, very gradual process.

There's still the issue of Ganondorf REMEMBERING THAT HE FOUGHT LINK, which is impossible if the adult future was erased.

Oy, that's right. I'll have to think on that one. Maybe all the Triforce bearers retained their memories of the future. Hell, that would even explain why Zelda is at the castle when she'd otherwise be hiding from Ganondorf. Yeah, I'll buy that.

No one else got to carry memories over reincarnations, I doubt Ganondorf got to.

You just contradicted your own point. If this is true, then why WOULD he recognize the Master Sword? Besides, I don't consider this a reincarnation. What happens between TWW and TP, I don't know. He does say how he was "awakened" in TP, so... eh.

All the portals to the Sacred Realm are in Hyrule, which is under water and washed away, since Hyrule was the Holy Land where the Triforce was hidden. You can't get to the Sacred Realm through Calatia or Termina or anything.

If you're going to keep throwing things at me that hinge on "TWW Hyrule is gone forever and ever and ever," which I have said numerious times now that I don't believe, the copy/paste "Not necessarily" is going to get very tiresome, if it hasn't already.

Doesn't change the fact that there's nothing left under water to actually salvage.

See the first response in this post.

I can know if a character is lying if, well, their information is WRONG. He assumed a freaky cloudy head form because it was the shape of his spirit. He possessed people because he has Black Magic, which is usually responsible for some of that crap, and he destroyed Hyrule Castle in an obviously-awesome-but-unshown Giant Monster Fight with Midna. He's not a god, he even says he was merely gifted with power by the Gods when you confront him. Hell, he never even actually says that he's a god; only Zant ever actually said so. Crazy guy must've started worshipping him, and Ganondorf took advantage of it.

Exactly what information being WRONG are you referring to?

Also, you completely made up what I bolded up there, unless I've forgotten a quote. (Yes, I've made stuff up in abundance, but I've never tried to pass it off as fact.) And I said he was "basically" a god, not a literal god.

Yeah, I'll grant that the castle was probably destroyed in the crossfire, so let's take that off the table.

However, he never did any of that other stuff before, as well as doing the Twilight teleport thing, so it's possible that the whole thing about drawing power from the Twili's grief made him stronger and/or with new/stronger abilities than before.

[bjamez7573]

I don't have much time to respond to your other comments, but

He said clearly that the Hero of Time left by traveling through time.

Not necessarily. Could be two different events. Traveled through time, then left Hyrule. English is kinda vague that way. What does the Japanese say?

The quote I gave you was a translation from the Japanese made by jaconsolo06. However, I forgot to mention that a correction was made by Jumbie, where the King of Red Lions actually says: "when the Hero of Time left Hyrule traveling through time"

There is no possible interpretation other than how he left was by traveling through time. If he left through that method, which only can happen on the adult timeline, the adult timeline must exist, since WW exists. And we know that the child timeline exists, due to the ending of OOT with child link and MM itself.

[MikePetersSucks]

All the mystical magical stuff that's happened in Zelda, and somehow restoring something that's been underwater is impossible? Really?

Daphnes, according to the Japanese script, wanted the land of Hyrule washed away to nothingness. There's nothing down there to revive with magic anymore. The only thing that can reverse that is reversing the Triforce wish. Do you think a few magic spells could do that?

Nobody in-game or otherwise ever said that. Even so, the point still remains. Even if it did start at around the same time, it's likely a very, very gradual process.

I was trying to work off your previous statements, but it doesn't much matter. I don't see much reason for the Deku Tree to just fart around, counting his leaves or whatever, then suddenly decide, "Eh. This water stuff isn't doing it for me, go plant some trees."

Oy, that's right. I'll have to think on that one. Maybe all the Triforce bearers retained their memories of the future. Hell, that would even explain why Zelda is at the castle when she'd otherwise be hiding from Ganondorf. Yeah, I'll buy that.

That's such an unbelievable asspull. Come on, dude, if you do that, then NOTHING can prove a split timeline for you. You could just say "Oh, Triforce bearers" and handwave it away. Link had time travel, and Zelda has established precognition. Ganondorf has no such excuse, otherwise I doubt your beloved "got his ass stuck in the Sacred Realm when Link closed the gate" thing would work.

Sorry to be rude, but these ideas to get around the Split Timeline have even less support than it does, and requires greater and greater and greater leaps in logic.

You just contradicted your own point. If this is true, then why WOULD he recognize the Master Sword? Besides, I don't consider this a reincarnation. What happens between TWW and TP, I don't know. He does say how he was "awakened" in TP, so... eh.

I believe that the Ganondorf of TWW and TP are both the same as the OOT Ganondorf. His not recognizing it as TP Ganondorf is thus perfectly consistent.

If you're going to keep throwing things at me that hinge on "TWW Hyrule is gone forever and ever and ever," which I have said numerious times now that I don't believe, the copy/paste "Not necessarily" is going to get very tiresome, if it hasn't already.

Regardless of Hyrule's "gone" status, all the portals to the Sacred Realm are there (series fact). Unless you revive Old Hyrule somehow, the New Hyrule will have no connection to the Sacred Realm because it's not the holy land where the Goddesses set foot and left their power. And if the Triforce went to the Sacred Realm after Daphnes' wish, then the onl thing that could revive Old Hyrule requires having access to Old Hyrule. It's a total lock-out.

Exactly what information being WRONG are you referring to?

Also, you completely made up what I bolded up there, unless I've forgotten a quote. (Yes, I've made stuff up in abundance, but I've never tried to pass it off as fact.) And I said he was "basically" a god, not a literal god.

It's an easy inference to make that it's Ganondorf's spirit form. Hyrulian beings of Light turn into Spirits when they enter the Twilight, and the only other time Ganondorf took that form was when you kill his body and it dissolves/melts. And what's the difference between being "basically" a god, and a literal god?

Yeah, I'll grant that the castle was probably destroyed in the crossfire, so let's take that off the table.

However, he never did any of that other stuff before, as well as doing the Twilight teleport thing, so it's possible that the whole thing about drawing power from the Twili's grief made him stronger and/or with new/stronger abilities than before.

The drawing power from the Twili's grief thing was a metaphor, as made explicit in the Japanese script. I highly advise going through the Japanese Translation thread, it's way worth the time.

And what? Ganondorf showing powers he didn't have before? Like he technically does in every Zelda game where he features as a boss fight? Pray it isn't so. Ganondorf's powers have never been explicitly defined. He could of been able to do all this stuff before and just never used it. Honestly, in how many instances has Ganon had to possess someone? Though you could make a case that there's series precedent for him doing so, considering if you count Agahnim as being a proper reincarnation or some guy he possessed.

[joeymartin64]

The only thing that can reverse that is reversing the Triforce wish. Do you think a few magic spells could do that?

No, which is why the scanario I put forth involves the Triforce.

I was trying to work off your previous statements, but it doesn't much matter. I don't see much reason for the Deku Tree to just fart around, counting his leaves or whatever, then suddenly decide, "Eh. This water stuff isn't doing it for me, go plant some trees."

That... really doesn't have anything to do with what I've said.

That's such an unbelievable asspull. Come on, dude, if you do that, then NOTHING can prove a split timeline for you.

Oh, it's absolutely an asspull, but why is it "unbelievable"? I've said repearedly that I make shit up, and used the word "fanwank" to describe my own assertions.

Ganondorf has no such excuse, otherwise I doubt your beloved "got his ass stuck in the Sacred Realm when Link closed the gate" thing would work.

I put that forth as a possibility that seemed to work based on what was being discussed at the time. Nothing "beloved" about it. Besides, I don't see why being able to remember would affect where he was or what he could do anout it.

Sorry to be rude, but these ideas to get around the Split Timeline have even less support than it does, and requires greater and greater and greater leaps in logic.

I've been aware of this all along. This is why I asked Person not to use Occam's Razor on me back on page one. It is complete fanwankery, and really, the main purpose of it is indeed to avoid a timeline split, a concept that I just hate. I've never once asserted that anything I've put forth is official or "true," because none of it is. It's bullshit that I made up simply for my own personal view of the timeline, which I prefer to be single.

The thing is, I entered this discussion just kinda to have some fun with it, and to bounce stuff off people to make sure I hadn't forgotten or overlooked anything that would place a single timeline in the same "absolutely impossible" category as a single Link theory. As illogical as I know it is, it hasn't reached that point. It started kinda getting strange when people (myself included) started taking it seriously. It was probably a mistake on my part to let it get to that point, since not caring what anyone else thinks is a cornerstone of my views on the timeline as it stands, but there you go.

Honestly, though, this thread has gotten me to thinking about the whole timeline split thing. And actually, I no longer hate the idea as much as I did at the start. That said, I would like to see official media (and please, please do NOT mention creator quotes, as I've covered that what seems like a million times now) to acknowledge the split. Seems unlikely, yes, but it has been done before (Chrono Cross).

His not recognizing it as TP Ganondorf is thus perfectly consistent.

This isn't so much a defense of my own argument, but OoT Ganondorf at least knew what the Master Sword was, and may have known it was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm. Maybe. He may have just tailed Link assuming he had the keys, but didn't give a shit what they were.

Regardless of Hyrule's "gone" status, all the portals to the Sacred Realm are there (series fact). Unless you revive Old Hyrule somehow, the New Hyrule will have no connection to the Sacred Realm because it's not the holy land where the Goddesses set foot and left their power. And if the Triforce went to the Sacred Realm after Daphnes' wish, then the onl thing that could revive Old Hyrule requires having access to Old Hyrule. It's a total lock-out.

Don't really see why the Goddesses can't take a liking to a new Hyrule and bestow it with that sort of thing.

It's an easy inference to make that it's Ganondorf's spirit form. Hyrulian beings of Light turn into Spirits when they enter the Twilight, and the only other time Ganondorf took that form was when you kill his body and it dissolves/melts. And what's the difference between being "basically" a god, and a literal god?

But why would that change him into that form? Nobody else ever got all spirity when they died.

Literally a god means... well, that he'd literally be a god. Basically a god means that he's so ball-bustingly powerful that his power almost rivals or does rival that of a god. Just pretend I said "basically as strong as a god" instead, I guess.

And what? Ganondorf showing powers he didn't have before? Like he technically does in every Zelda game where he features as a boss fight? Pray it isn't so. Ganondorf's powers have never been explicitly defined. He could of been able to do all this stuff before and just never used it. Honestly, in how many instances has Ganon had to possess someone? Though you could make a case that there's series precedent for him doing so, considering if you count Agahnim as being a proper reincarnation or some guy he possessed.

When was he more formidable than in TP, though? It's not so much the things he can do, but the level of power (OVER 9000 joke goes here) that they imply. It's iffy, I know.

One instance that comes to mind, though, about the possession thing, specifically. He had Twinrova brainwash people in OoT, rather than possessing them himself.

In any case, like I said somewhere above, my way of doing this whole timeline thing straight up doesn't belong here, so I think I'm going to bow out, at least of this particular discussion, unless something comes up that I really feel like responding to. I'm still not totally buying into the whole split deal, but I am thinking about it.

Edited by joeymartin64, 03 August 2009 - 02:51 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, which is why the scanario I put forth involves the Triforce.

Better hope the Triforce didn't go back to the Sacred Realm, then, which, imo, is implied to have happened.

Oh, it's absolutely an asspull, but why is it "unbelievable"? I've said repearedly that I make shit up, and used the word "fanwank" to describe my own assertions.

"Unbelievable" as in "audacious."

Honestly, though, this thread has gotten me to thinking about the whole timeline split thing. And actually, I no longer hate the idea as much as I did at the start. That said, I would like to see official media (and please, please do NOT mention creator quotes, as I've covered that what seems like a million times now) to acknowledge the split. Seems unlikely, yes, but it has been done before (Chrono Cross).

The problem with this is that Chrono Cross specifically had the timeline split be a major plotpoint, where in Zelda is a device to resolve a paradox and then move on with things. I don't see much reason to have the split timeline come into the forefront of the plot unless something wanks the space-time continuum for some reason, which I don't see happening, considering how the Hyrule cosmology seems to apparently work. I still don't understand why you're so averted to the idea.

Don't really see why the Goddesses can't take a liking to a new Hyrule and bestow it with that sort of thing.

The implications of the creation myth speeches and such is that the Sacred Realm's creation and connection to Hyrule is specifically to be because they stepped foot on Hyrule's soil, in much the same way that worlds of Termina exist as accidental creations when their breathing life into Hyrule slipped through the cracks (I know it was NoA, but shut up, it was cool). Presumably, to connect New Hyrule to the Sacred Realm, the Goddesses would have to physically manifest and be all like "Sup?" which I think would be heavily recorded. Oh, and a new Master Sword would have to be created.

But why would that change him into that form? Nobody else ever got all spirity when they died.

Probably because he turned into a demon and was abusing the powers of his Triforce piece, or something. He's been throwing around the power of Darkness the whole game to pull off miraculous events despite being only an empowered mortal, regardless of his ego.

One instance that comes to mind, though, about the possession thing, specifically. He had Twinrova brainwash people in OoT, rather than possessing them himself.

Now come on, this is silly. For what reason would Ganondorf put himself on the front lines by possessing the body of some temple guardian out in the damned desert? An important thing to keep in mind is that Zelda's soul wasn't currently in her body, so he might need an empty vessel in order to possess it, or only possessed it because you can't brainwash an empty piece of meat. I also imagine he entered Zelda in a sort of "oh ho ho can't hurt your princess, can you?" sort of thing, which you can't do with some random grunt.

In any case, like I said somewhere above, my way of doing this whole timeline thing straight up doesn't belong here, so I think I'm going to bow out, at least of this particular discussion, unless something comes up that I really feel like responding to. I'm still not totally buying into the whole split deal, but I am thinking about it.

Fair enough. And hey, sorry about blowing up earlier in the thread. I haven't had a good week or so. Brother deleted all my files and sent me to the hospital with a broken shoulder and leg and shit, so I've been on pissed off + mood-altering pain medication. I'm not usually like this.

[GuardianNinja]

Fair enough. And hey, sorry about blowing up earlier in the thread. I haven't had a good week or so. Brother deleted all my files and sent me to the hospital with a broken shoulder and leg and shit, so I've been on pissed off + mood-altering pain medication. I'm not usually like this.

Oh shit, thats pretty f'n gay. Beat your brother, lol.

[ganonlord6000]

I know that this has nothing to do with the current argument, but it seems that OcarinaHero10 (The one who posted that responce on Youtube that said there was no timeline and the reason this thread even exists) is trying to get NOA to admit that there is a timeline as he knows there is one. He told me this in a comment he made on a video I posted on YouTube about the responce he got from NOA (The video basically said that NOA can't be taken seriously and the fact that Aonuma (sorry if I spelled this wrong) and Miyamoto said that there is a timeline). This has a possibility of resurrectig the YouTube timeline community (I don't know if this is good or bad). And I (sadly) saw that NOA responce and it clearly shows that NOA didn't pay attention to TWW at all and said that timeline debating was put to rest becaused of TWW. I LOL'd at this as the exact opposite happened BECAUSE of TWW.

[Masamune]

I dunno, I kind of missed the old days when there wasn't an 'official' timeline. We could do whatever the hell we wanted.

[Zola Revolution]

There was still a story...

BS:TG:DI:HFLZ:AL

[ganonlord6000]

There was still a story...

BS:TG:DI:HFLZ:AL

Why do you like using the Japanese names? It can confuse most of us who are used to the American names even though I know a few of the Japanese names.

[Masamune]

I'll translate.

Battle Star : The Germans : Dalek Invaders : Her Fully Loaded Zoo : Alf Lives!

[joeymartin64]

Acronyms that nobody uses for titles that nobody uses: a double whammy of pointlessless.

I'm pretty sure BS means backstory. TG is Triforce of the Gods/A Link to the Past, DI is Dreaming Island/Link's Awakening, HFLZ is The Hyrule Fantasy: The Legend of Zelda/the first game, and AL is The Adventure of Link.

Dude, seriously, just use the names everyone else does, so we don't have to go through this shit.

[Person]

In the old days, the timeline was:
OoT-ALttP-LA-LoZ-AoL.

The biggest debate was whether or not there was more than one Link and whether the comics and TV show should count.

Ah, for a simpler time!

[Masamune]

And we actually took the US ALttP Instruction manual at face value. What fools we were!

[Person]

And we labeled Links, like Link I, Link II, etc. Now we have like 9 or 10 to deal with and people just gave up.

[joeymartin64]

I miss discussing Hyrule's geography. I mean, we always knew the maps weren't meant to be perfect representations, but we could discuss it all the same, just basically for the hell of it.

[Zola Revolution]

Why do you like using the Japanese names?

I use the Japanese titles because the games were made in Japan.

[Person]

Why do you like using the Japanese names?

I use the Japanese titles because the games were made in Japan.

But they were localized in the English-speaking world under other titles with Nintendo's approval. Using the Japanese titles when nobody else does is needlessly purist (and that's saying something coming from an uberpurist like me) and frankly pointless, given that the localized titles were chosen by Nintendo themselves.

It's like all of the Kaijuphiles referring to Godzilla as Gojira all the time whenever Toho Studios themselves approved his English name and even made puns off of it in later movies (the American version of Godzilla was at one time referred to as Zilla because it "Took the 'God' out of Godzilla").

Simply put, Nintendo is not 4Kids, and the name changes and such were done with their approval. The retranslation thread on this forum was just done in order to clarify things. Note that in 9 times out of 10, the American and Japanese versions say the same thing. The number of legitimate mistranslations I've seen I can count on one finger.

[Nerushi]

I use the Japanese titles because the games were made in Japan.

Then why don't you use the Japanese titles such as Toki no Ocarina, Kaze no Takuto or 4tsu no Tsurugi+? Or why not even take it a step further and use actual Japanese character, Kanji and hiragana etc.? Now you're just using rough translation that doesn't make sense to anyone as they lack context and looking at your timeline is just a headache, hence why I don't even try to. For the rest of it, I agree with Person.

Edited by Nerushi, 01 September 2009 - 12:46 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I use the Japanese titles because the games were made in Japan.

What Nerushi said. Stop being a pretentious twit. If you're going to call things by their term in the nation of origin, you have to stop using...pretty much every English word that was created before the 1960's. Stop calling it a chair, it's a Stuhl.

[Masamune]

I'm pretty sure this is a lost cause.

You could do like Fire Emblem fans. They actually remember names like "Rekka no Ken" and "Seisen no Keifu". They're terrible like that.

[Person]

I'm pretty sure this is a lost cause.

You could do like Fire Emblem fans. They actually remember names like "Rekka no Ken" and "Seisen no Keifu". They're terrible like that.

The less pretentious ones just call them FE7 and FE4, or their unofficial names "Blazing Sword" and "Genealogy of the Holy War." Of course, things are different when you're dealing with titles that haven't been localized. There was a big firestorm whenever the DS version of Shadow Dragon changed the names, so that common terms like "Jeigan" were now obsolete because the character's official name was "Jagen" now. Let's not even get into the differences in the US and UK versions. Is it "Shiida," "Sheeda," or "Caeda?"

But FE generally hasn't had as many high-quality localizations as Zelda has. The American localization of FE10 comes to mind. Hey, did you know that Muarim is Ike's sister?