86 replies to this topic

[Person]

Well, specific events may reoccur in the series, but the general decline of Hyrule from the "Hylian Age" to a small kingdom inhabited by their descendants is still pretty visible. The story of Hyrule is a linear progression, and we can determine the timeline on that basis.

We're led to believe this but any sort of progression shown? The closest thing to the golden Hylian Age we've seen so far is OoT and the Hylians don't seem to all that different in the people in ALttP. The Hylians in OoT certianly don;'t seem all that magically adept than the people in ALttP except for a few key people, such as Princess Zelda, but taht was the same case in ALttP. Hyrule always seems to be locked in some vague pseudo-medieval stasis with plenty of anachronisms thrown here and there which lead me to believe Hyrule's cultural and technological progression through the series isn't all that serious.

TWW's Ocean Punk world doesn't exactly smack of medieval stasis, and neither does Spirit Tracks.

[SOAP]

Well, specific events may reoccur in the series, but the general decline of Hyrule from the "Hylian Age" to a small kingdom inhabited by their descendants is still pretty visible. The story of Hyrule is a linear progression, and we can determine the timeline on that basis.

We're led to believe this but any sort of progression shown? The closest thing to the golden Hylian Age we've seen so far is OoT and the Hylians don't seem to all that different in the people in ALttP. The Hylians in OoT certianly don;'t seem all that magically adept than the people in ALttP except for a few key people, such as Princess Zelda, but taht was the same case in ALttP. Hyrule always seems to be locked in some vague pseudo-medieval stasis with plenty of anachronisms thrown here and there which lead me to believe Hyrule's cultural and technological progression through the series isn't all that serious.

TWW's Ocean Punk world doesn't exactly smack of medieval stasis, and neither does Spirit Tracks.

Yes but they don't show a linear progression either. And I already mentioned anachronisms. None of the changes in technology or culture seem to be serious indications of lenaer progression. They're just there to suit the individual game, not the overall timeline. Or they're there simply for comedic or atmospheric effect. TWW is an ocean punk world because they wanted a game to with lots of sailing so Hyrule was flooded and became a bunch of islands. PH they wanted to improve on the sailing so they came up with a steam-powered boat for Link to use. ST, wherever in tthe timeline it may fit, is just further expanding on the steam-powered boat. If levels of technology and changes in culture could be use to prove a linear timeline, then games like TWW, TP, ST, ect would be some of the LAST games of the timeline, while games like ALttP and LoZ would be in the beginning with OoT somewhere in the middle. This is not so with most timelines. There's not really much to go on for a linear timeline. Thoe closest thing would be to go with the NOA as they're more tailored to Western linear ways of thinking. Otherwise, if you want to go with the Japanese texts, then a cyclical view of time makes more sense. Everyone is reincarnated and everything gets reinvented. The players change roles but the story remains the same. Simple.

Edit: Actually my views on the Zelda timeline are neither cyclical or linear but is leaning more and more towards the multiple universes theory. with only some vague connections here and there.

Edited by SOAP, 28 May 2009 - 03:37 AM.

[Raien]

I'm saying he/they wouldn't invade Hyrule, and ignore the Triforce. I'm saying that the vision is virtually the same as ALttP/OoT backstory, just with the Dark Tribe involved. I'm saying that it can be the actual Triforce in the vision, because to have the Triforce serve as a symbol for Hyrule would be redundant, because they mean the same thing, and if you control the Triforce, you control Hyrule.

The ultimate goal of these villains, yes, is to rule Hyrule, and the world. I'm not arguing against that, and I never have (though I will admit I haven't been clear on that in the past.) I just don't see why they can't be fighting over the Triforce when we see them fighting over it.

1) The backstories of TP, ALttP and OoT are not similar to each other.

ALttP: The Hyrulians heard about the location of the Sacred Realm, fought over it, gave up.
OoT: The different tribes of Hyrule fought over the kingdom, the King of Hyrule won and united them.
TP: The Hyrulians fought over the kingdom, the Dark Tribe dominated with their evil magic and were exiled by the goddesses.

The only way you can make these events sound similar is by assuming that references to the kingdom are references to the Triforce, or vice versa. But that would be a fallacy, because you can say that anything sounds similar by replacing one object with another. For example, if we assume that the Light Force is the Triforce of Wisdom, then *gasp*, Zelda's possession of it in TMC is just like in TWW! SIMILARITY AHOY!

2) What are you talking about, saying the Triforce means the same thing as Hyrule? In what alternate reality do fictional characters refer to a magical object with the name of A KINGDOM!? And without contextual distinction, to boot. Next you'll be arguing that all references to England in the King Arthur legends are actually referring to Excalibur.

3) FSA demonstrates that if you control the Dark Trident, you can control Hyrule. The idea that the Triforce is necessary for conquering Hyrule IS AN ASSUMPTION.

4) Saying "we see the Dark Tribe fighting over the Triforce" means nothing when we've established that the imagery is almost entirely symbolic in nature. We see Shadow Links standing in front of the Triforce, but Lanayru tells us that the Dark Tribe were fighting over the kingdom.

I brought this up in my last post (which wasn't my main point because it only occurred to me when I was typing.) Lanayru wouldn't reference the Triforce, or "the" Sacred Realm because they're not referenced anywhere else in the game. The more I think about it the more I see places where the game text was deliberately changed to eradicate the Triforce and the Sacred Realm. In this view, "the Sacred Realm" to "the Sacred Realm, Hyrule" was one of these changes. As for the reason for these changes, well, like I said; that's for another thread.

So you're saying that TP is full of "invisible references" to the Triforce and Sacred Realm? Apart from referring to the Triforce as the "power of the gods", what other examples do you have? Because from my perspective, it looks like you're wandering into conspiracy theory territory.

We're led to believe this but any sort of progression shown? The closest thing to the golden Hylian Age we've seen so far is OoT and the Hylians don't seem to all that different in the people in ALttP. The Hylians in OoT certianly don;'t seem all that magically adept than the people in ALttP except for a few key people, such as Princess Zelda, but taht was the same case in ALttP. Hyrule always seems to be locked in some vague pseudo-medieval stasis with plenty of anachronisms thrown here and there which lead me to believe Hyrule's cultural and technological progression through the series isn't all that serious.

OoT says that the people are Hylians. ALttP says that the Hylians died out long ago. Thus, OoT takes place before ALttP in a linear progression of events.

Overcomplicate things as much as you want, but the threadbare connections between games are overt enough to determine a linear timeline.

Edited by Raien, 28 May 2009 - 10:17 AM.

[CID Farwin]

You're right. How dare I have a different view of things than you. How dare I try and say that there might be other possibilities than the way you see things. Why should I try to challenge what you think; I mean, you've proven time and time again, that you (and Impossible of course) are the authority when it comes to the Zelda timeline.

And of course, anyone who says differently is going against what is "generally accepted" to be the case.

ALttP: The Hyrulians heard about the location of the Sacred Realm, fought over it, gave up.
OoT: The different tribes of Hyrule fought over the kingdom, the King of Hyrule won and united them.
TP: The Hyrulians fought over the kingdom, the Dark Tribe dominated with their evil magic and were exiled by the goddesses.

Why do the three have to be mutually exclusive of each other? Why can't OoT's Back story be a clarification of the back story of ALttP? Why can't the back story of TP be one of the wars mentioned in OoT/ALttP?

Oh, that's right. I forget, you're one of those people who refuses to believe something can be the same if there's a discrepancy.

The only way you can make these events sound similar is by assuming that references to the kingdom are references to the Triforce, or vice versa. But that would be a fallacy, because you can say that anything sounds similar by replacing one object with another. For example, if we assume that the Light Force is the Triforce of Wisdom, then *gasp*, Zelda's possession of it in TMC is just like in TWW! SIMILARITY AHOY!

I do indeed believe that TMC throws strong hints towards a connection to the Light Force and Triforce. Later games, however, have proven this to not be the case.

But then, of course, in saying this, it means I'm encroaching on Lex territory to some extent, and that is, indeed, the greatest sin in Timeline Theorizing.

3) FSA demonstrates that if you control the Dark Trident, you can control Hyrule. The idea that the Triforce is necessary for conquering Hyrule IS AN ASSUMPTION.

When did I say this? That the Triforce is necessary for conquering Hyrule? And how does FSA demonstrate that the Dark Trident will make you control Hyrule? I just thought it housed Ganon's power. You accuse me of false equivalence all the time, and yet Triforce=Ganon's Trident? Really?

2) What are you talking about, saying the Triforce means the same thing as Hyrule? In what alternate reality do fictional characters refer to a magical object with the name of A KINGDOM!? And without contextual distinction, to boot. Next you'll be arguing that all references to England in the King Arthur legends are actually referring to Excalibur.

no, I won't because that would be ridiculous. I did not mean that the word itself applies to multiple things, but that the object called "Triforce" and the land called "Hyrule" are essentially the same. Rather, that they are two parts to a greater whole. MPS can correct me if I'm completely off here, but as I see it, the best comparison I can think of would be the heart of Davy Jones in Pirates of the Carribbean 2 and 3 (as much as I'd prefer pretending they didn't exist.) You control the Heart, you control Davy Jones, therefore the Flying Dutchman, and therefore the seas. The Triforce skips the middle-man altogether and is the "Heart" of Hyrule itself. (which, come to think of it, is a major reason I don't believe Hyrule to be truly "dead" in TWW, but I digress....)

4) Saying "we see the Dark Tribe fighting over the Triforce" means nothing when we've established that the imagery is almost entirely symbolic in nature. We see Shadow Links standing in front of the Triforce, but Lanayru tells us that the Dark Tribe were fighting over the kingdom.

Here we are again, saying that it's all symbolic, which I've addressed already. To the other part, I'll get to that below.

So you're saying that TP is full of "invisible references" to the Triforce and Sacred Realm? Apart from referring to the Triforce as the "power of the gods", what other examples do you have? Because from my perspective, it looks like you're wandering into conspiracy theory territory.

I'm not saying that there's "invisible references." I'm saying that--for one reason or another--the references to the Triforce and the Sacred Realm were changed. Personally, I believe, yes, that they are "invisible references," but they very well could have just wanted to overhaul the Mythology and have the backstory fight be about Hyrule, and have something other than the Triforce at play. I had nothing to do with the development of TP; I don't know what they were planning, jut that they changed it, because the visuals say one thing, the text says another.

But of course, why should you listen to me? I'm the crackpot with the "conspiracy theories." I don't find the text of an uncompleted game like TP as immutable as you do. For that matter, I don't find any of the games perfect and immutable.

Oh, and nice job with pointing out the "fallacy" of a strawman. (while ignoring the numerous fallacies of your own post, no less)

[Raien]

You're right. How dare I have a different view of things than you. How dare I try and say that there might be other possibilities than the way you see things. Why should I try to challenge what you think; I mean, you've proven time and time again, that you (and Impossible of course) are the authority when it comes to the Zelda timeline.

Please don't get dramatic with me. I'm not attacking you for having a different view, I'm attacking this particular view. I'm sorry for getting snarky, but please don't make it more personal than it has to be.

Why do the three have to be mutually exclusive of each other? Why can't OoT's Back story be a clarification of the back story of ALttP? Why can't the back story of TP be one of the wars mentioned in OoT/ALttP?

Oh, that's right. I forget, you're one of those people who refuses to believe something can be the same if there's a discrepancy.

Hold on a moment. You're saying that clear discrepancies aren't disproofs of two objects/events being the same? With that logic, how do you argue that two objects/events are different?

On a more serious note, if I had to choose one reason why the events aren't the same, it would be the distinction of the Hylians from their descendants. According to ALttP's backstory, the fighting over the Triforce began because the Hylian descendants had only just rediscovered it in their ancestors' history, whereas of course the Dark Tribe were sealed long before the death of the Hylian race.

I do indeed believe that TMC throws strong hints towards a connection to the Light Force and Triforce. Later games, however, have proven this to not be the case.

Actually, FSA was the first game to establish "Force", but at the time we didn't make the connection because the translations were still in their infancy. While the Light Force was almost certainly an analogue of the Triforce, it's highly unlikely that it was ever intended to be actively connected to the Triforce.

When did I say this? That the Triforce is necessary for conquering Hyrule? And how does FSA demonstrate that the Dark Trident will make you control Hyrule? I just thought it housed Ganon's power. You accuse me of false equivalence all the time, and yet Triforce=Ganon's Trident? Really?

It was stated in FSA that Ganon used the Trident to convert the Forest of Light into the Forest of Darkness, and that his goal was to cover the rest of Hyrule in Darkness, transforming it into his Makai. This was the exact same goal for Ganon as ALttP.

no, I won't because that would be ridiculous. I did not mean that the word itself applies to multiple things, but that the object called "Triforce" and the land called "Hyrule" are essentially the same. Rather, that they are two parts to a greater whole. MPS can correct me if I'm completely off here, but as I see it, the best comparison I can think of would be the heart of Davy Jones in Pirates of the Carribbean 2 and 3 (as much as I'd prefer pretending they didn't exist.) You control the Heart, you control Davy Jones, therefore the Flying Dutchman, and therefore the seas. The Triforce skips the middle-man altogether and is the "Heart" of Hyrule itself. (which, come to think of it, is a major reason I don't believe Hyrule to be truly "dead" in TWW, but I digress....)

Okay, I understand what you're saying here now.

PS: To your last line, you know that the Triforce flies up towards the heavens in TWW's ending? You don't think that would symbolise Hyrule's death?

I'm not saying that there's "invisible references." I'm saying that--for one reason or another--the references to the Triforce and the Sacred Realm were changed. Personally, I believe, yes, that they are "invisible references," but they very well could have just wanted to overhaul the Mythology and have the backstory fight be about Hyrule, and have something other than the Triforce at play. I had nothing to do with the development of TP; I don't know what they were planning, jut that they changed it, because the visuals say one thing, the text says another.

Examples please (apart from the "Triforce is called the power of the gods" example)?

Edited by Raien, 28 May 2009 - 05:39 PM.

[SOAP]

I'm overcompliacting things? I don't see how treating the games as separate smaller timelines is overcomplicated.

Besides, most of these linear progressions you provided are what's apparent enough in the English translations. You haven't provided any evidence that the original Japanese text gives any better understanding on how the games fit together in a linear sense. I'd agree they give a better understanding of that particular games individual story but not much else. Even if the creators did intend for all the canon games to fit on one linear timeline (aside from the split) how do you know they didn't leave that up to NOA in localization or that NOA didn't consult the creators on how the games should fit together before "making shit up"? How do you know you're not just forcing western logic on what probably makes more sense if you're Japanese and heavily influenced by Buddhism and other eastern philosophies that treat time as cyclical.

My bottom-line is: If you want a linear timeline, then the NOA translations, which are tailored made for that way of thinking, should be suffice enough. Especially since most of linear connections in the games are apparent enough in the NOA translation. The only major problems you'd run into is NOA's preference for a singular, non-split timeline sometimes comes through in translations despite the timeline split being officially Word of God. But many Zelda theorists accept the split timeline, even without the the Japanese original texts.

If you don't want a linear timeline or simply want to get a better understanding of each games individual story, such as the emotional impact of certian scenes taht get lost in transltion, ect, then the Japnese texts give pretty good insight. Otherwise, using them to lord over the "misquided fans" who go by the NOA translations just smacks of total dickery.

[Raien]

I'm overcompliacting things? I don't see how treating the games as separate smaller timelines is overcomplicated.

What's overcomplicated is, despite that every Zelda game provides a very simple, very obvious timeline connection to a previous game, your assertion that these games cannot be connected because there is no evidence of cultural/technological progression.

Besides, most of these linear progressions you provided are what's apparent enough in the English translations. You haven't provided any evidence that the original Japanese text gives any better understanding on how the games fit together in a linear sense. I'd agree they give a better understanding of that particular games individual story but not much else.

This is true enough, but timeline theorising is a general amalgamation of both the game orders and the general mythology. Even if the fan translations only shed new light on the general mythology, that is still important to theorists.

How do you know you're not just forcing western logic on what probably makes more sense if you're Japanese and heavily influenced by Buddhism and other eastern philosophies that treat time as cyclical.

Because, FOR THE SECOND TIME SAYING THIS, we have fan translators that are adept at the workings of Eastern philosophy.

Edited by Raien, 29 May 2009 - 08:03 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

MPS, what do you say about FSA, in which Ganon starts covering the land of Hyrule in darkness without the Triforce?

He was a big ass demon with big black magic. What are you getting at?

waht I understand from Japnese culture they view time as circular so a constantly rebooted timeline is probably closer to what the Japanese official timeline would be. MPS, can correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, for one, you're thinking of the Chinese. Two, cyclical time doesn't mean things repeat, it means things go on without an ultimate beginning or end. The universe is, was, and will always be, and therefore events repeat if the reason for them hasn't been learned, etc. This doesn't mean that the timeline makes a literal causal loop, or that time is ended, rebooted, or remade, it simply means that, if, say, people don't learn that oppressing black people was wrong because oppression is WRONG, they'll oppress someone else, such as gay people or chinese people.

I do indeed believe that TMC throws strong hints towards a connection to the Light Force and Triforce. Later games, however, have proven this to not be the case.

I have to say, thanks for recognizing this isn't the case, because if you thought this and didn't throw TMC out as non-canon garbage because of this, I would have to kill you.

It was incredibly obvious that the Light Force wasn't the Triforce even in the context of TMC alone.

no, I won't because that would be ridiculous. I did not mean that the word itself applies to multiple things, but that the object called "Triforce" and the land called "Hyrule" are essentially the same. Rather, that they are two parts to a greater whole. MPS can correct me if I'm completely off here, but as I see it, the best comparison I can think of would be the heart of Davy Jones in Pirates of the Carribbean 2 and 3 (as much as I'd prefer pretending they didn't exist.) You control the Heart, you control Davy Jones, therefore the Flying Dutchman, and therefore the seas. The Triforce skips the middle-man altogether and is the "Heart" of Hyrule itself. (which, come to think of it, is a major reason I don't believe Hyrule to be truly "dead" in TWW, but I digress....)

The Triforce is a Cosmic Keystone that allows the user to basically be a Fisher King.

http://tvtropes.org/.../CosmicKeystone

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/FisherKing

PS: To your last line, you know that the Triforce flies up towards the heavens in TWW's ending? You don't think that would symbolise Hyrule's death?

That never crossed my mind, and that is AWESOME.

How do you know you're not just forcing western logic on what probably makes more sense if you're Japanese and heavily influenced by Buddhism and other eastern philosophies that treat time as cyclical.

Ahem, cyclical time doesn't mean what you think it does.

And that's why I'm here: To give the Eastern culture context our translators would not possess.

[avroillusion]

Interesting. Thank you very much for the translation. It clears up some stuff. Is someone seriously saying he understands the Japanese way of thinking...? Sounds like internet research to me.

Anyway, about the cyclical thing, it's more about how Zelda, Link and Ganondorf are connected by "fate". They are more like roles to fill. The Wind Waker touches upon this, Link originally being a simple boy from Outset who jumps through the King's hoops until his is worthy to take up the Legendary Hero's mantle. Lack of technological advancement is usually due to either:
-the game takes place almost exactly after the first (OOT and MM, ALttP and LA, LoZ and AoL)
-the game takes place after a large cataclysm or disaster (OOT and WW)

[Raien]

He was a big ass demon with big black magic. What are you getting at?

The objective of Ganon in ALttP was to cover Hyrule in Darkness, transforming the land into his Makai. But without the Triforce, Ganon attempted that very task in FSA, and came close to succeeding.

My question to you is, why do you think that TP's Dark Tribe went after the Triforce, when they could have just done what FSA Ganon did?

Well, for one, you're thinking of the Chinese. Two, cyclical time doesn't mean things repeat, it means things go on without an ultimate beginning or end. The universe is, was, and will always be, and therefore events repeat if the reason for them hasn't been learned, etc. This doesn't mean that the timeline makes a literal causal loop, or that time is ended, rebooted, or remade, it simply means that, if, say, people don't learn that oppressing black people was wrong because oppression is WRONG, they'll oppress someone else, such as gay people or chinese people.

Thanks for clearing that up. Time is always one of the hardest things to grasp if you're not used to it.

The Triforce is a Cosmic Keystone that allows the user to basically be a Fisher King.

http://tvtropes.org/.../CosmicKeystone

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/FisherKing

Hang on a second. Isn't the "Makai" a land connected to its ruler, the Maou? So wouldn't Ganon become a Fisher King just by covering Hyrule in darkness?

That never crossed my mind, and that is AWESOME.

Thanks. My only concern with this theory though, is that the Triforce has been said to be the cornerstone of the entire world, as much as it is for the land of Hyrule. Still, it's very nice symbolism.

And that's why I'm here: To give the Eastern culture context our translators would not possess.

And comes with a three-year guarantee (exp. 2007).

[CID Farwin]

Hold on a moment. You're saying that clear discrepancies aren't disproofs of two objects/events being the same? With that logic, how do you argue that two objects/events are different?

No, I'm saying that clear discrepancies are SURE PROOF THAT THEY MUST BE THE SAME!

THEY'RE ALL THE SAME MIRROR!

THE DEKU TREE IS LUKE'S FATHER!

THE TRIFORCE IS MADE OF PEOPLE!



*gets hauled off by the men in white coats*

No, I'm just saying that what constitutes "clear discrepancies" varies from person to person.

On a more serious note, if I had to choose one reason why the events aren't the same, it would be the distinction of the Hylians from their descendants. According to ALttP's backstory, the fighting over the Triforce began because the Hylian descendants had only just rediscovered it in their ancestors' history, whereas of course the Dark Tribe were sealed long before the death of the Hylian race.

Wait, wha? I'm gonna have to see some sources for this. (not that I really doubt you, this is just kind of new to me)

Actually, FSA was the first game to establish "Force", but at the time we didn't make the connection because the translations were still in their infancy. While the Light Force was almost certainly an analogue of the Triforce, it's highly unlikely that it was ever intended to be actively connected to the Triforce.

...
...
sorry, I'm just trying to figure out what this has to do with what I said.

It was stated in FSA that Ganon used the Trident to convert the Forest of Light into the Forest of Darkness, and that his goal was to cover the rest of Hyrule in Darkness, transforming it into his Makai. This was the exact same goal for Ganon as ALttP.

...I'm not sure what you're getting at by telling me this...

Okay, I understand what you're saying here now.

Good.

PS: To your last line, you know that the Triforce flies up towards the heavens in TWW's ending? You don't think that would symbolise Hyrule's death?

Whoa, nice. Though technically it flew into the ocean.

Anywaaay, yeah, Hyrule (Old Daphnes's Ganon, Zelda, fight-for-the-Triforce Hyrule) is dead. You've already convinced me of that much. It's just something I've been thinking about, that maybe the Goddesses never intended Hyrule to be brought back. And that there'd be a "New Hyrule" that would start over and do things right. In other words, pure speculation.

Examples please (apart from the "Triforce is called the power of the gods" example)?

*Shrug* It's a new thought that there might be more than just that one change, I'd have to replay TP/look through translations to see if there's more. (which I'm not really up to right now.)

Two, cyclical time doesn't mean things repeat, it means things go on without an ultimate beginning or end. The universe is, was, and will always be, and therefore events repeat if the reason for them hasn't been learned, etc. This doesn't mean that the timeline makes a literal causal loop, or that time is ended, rebooted, or remade, it simply means that, if, say, people don't learn that oppressing black people was wrong because oppression is WRONG, they'll oppress someone else, such as gay people or chinese people.

Sorry, it's just that you've done that thing again where you inadvertently make Zelda make a whole lot more sense.

I have to say, thanks for recognizing this isn't the case, because if you thought this and didn't throw TMC out as non-canon garbage because of this, I would have to kill you.

It was incredibly obvious that the Light Force wasn't the Triforce even in the context of TMC alone.

I said "throws strong hints at," kind of like in TP with the Hero's shade "hinted at" being the HoT. (which he isn't.) I initially thought it was, and then thought better of it.

The Triforce is a Cosmic Keystone that allows the user to basically be a Fisher King.

http://tvtropes.org/.../CosmicKeystone

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/FisherKing

TV tropes does it again!

[Raien]

Wait, wha? I'm gonna have to see some sources for this. (not that I really doubt you, this is just kind of new to me)

Heh, upon reading the manual again, I guess it wasn't as plain as I remembered. This is Zethar-II's translation of ALttP's manual:

This documentation was written by the race of Hylia, the chosen people capable of hearing the voices of the gods. For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic. It is said that they passed on [stories of] their magic and prophecies to their descendants, who rooted themselves in all parts of the world.

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce. "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm.

It doesn't actually specify that the Hylian relics were found by their descendants, but I inferred it because of the previous line referring to the Hylians passing stories to their descendants. I could also argue that ALttP's manual implies that the fighting leads directly into the Imprisoning War but it suffers from the same problem of debatability.

Soo.. I'm going to bow out from this particular point saying that I think ALttP's manual implies a direct transition into the IW, and thus is unlikely to centuries before with other shit happening in-between. But I can't claim it to be fact.

sorry, I'm just trying to figure out what this has to do with what I said.

You said "later games proved the Light Force not to be the Triforce". Both MPS and me are saying "TMC already made that fact obvious. Later games had nothing to do with it".

...I'm not sure what you're getting at by telling me this...

Simple question. Why do we have to assume that the Dark Tribe went for the Triforce when they could have used their all-powerful dark magic to conquer the kingdom, just like Ganon did in FSA?

Edited by Raien, 30 May 2009 - 08:18 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Heh, upon reading the manual again, I guess it wasn't as plain as I remembered. This is Zethar-II's translation of ALttP's manual:

This documentation was written by the race of Hylia, the chosen people capable of hearing the voices of the gods. For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic. It is said that they passed on [stories of] their magic and prophecies to their descendants, who rooted themselves in all parts of the world.

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce. "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm.

It doesn't actually specify that the Hylian relics were found by their descendants, but I inferred it because of the previous line referring to the Hylians passing stories to their descendants. I could also argue that ALttP's manual implies that the fighting leads directly into the Imprisoning War but it suffers from the same problem of debatability.

Soo.. I'm going to bow out from this particular point saying that I think ALttP's manual implies a direct transition into the IW, and thus is unlikely to centuries before with other shit happening in-between. But I can't claim it to be fact.

Alright, I see where you're getting that from.

You said "later games proved the Light Force not to be the Triforce". Both MPS and me are saying "TMC already made that fact obvious. Later games had nothing to do with it".

Remember the first point of my last post? It wasn't so "obvious" to some people (myself included.)

Simple question. Why do we have to assume that the Dark Tribe went for the Triforce when they could have used their all-powerful dark magic to conquer the kingdom, just like Ganon did in FSA?

I thought Hyrule getting covered in darkness in FSA was a result of Ganon draining the "force" from the land, not from just his dark magic alone. Ganon always seems to be unable to just conquer Hyrule; he needs some sort of gimmick to change it into his Makai. (getting the Triforce, draining the "Force", offing the Light Spirits, etc.) TP doesn't mention the Dark Tribe doing anything like that, just that they used the fused shadow to get ahead of the competition (or just annihilate them, if visuals are to be believed) in the fight for Hyrule...or the Triforce, or...whatever it is they're really fighting over.

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 May 2009 - 11:23 AM.

[Raien]

I thought Hyrule getting covered in darkness in FSA was a result of Ganon draining the "force" from the land, not from just his dark magic alone. Ganon always seems to be unable to just conquer Hyrule; he needs some sort of gimmick to change it into his Makai. (getting the Triforce, draining the "Force", offing the Light Spirits, etc.)

Well, it's obvious that Ganon needs to weaken the forces of Light in order to cover Hyrule in Darkness. But the act of weakening Light itself does not transform Hyrule into Ganon's Makai. For example, when Ganon's monsters began ravaging Hyrule in the IW, Hyrule did not become the Makai. When they did the same thing in OoT, Hyrule did not become the Makai. As Ganon was draining the land of "Force" in FSA, that act did not transform Hyrule into the Makai. Only the Forest of Darkness, the first place Ganon struck with the Trident, was officially named the Makai.

So no, I think that in FSA, the Trident was the only thing that could actively transform Hyrule into Ganon's Makai, which gives him the power that only the Triforce had previously been able to give him.

TP doesn't mention the Dark Tribe doing anything like that, just that they used the fused shadow to get ahead of the competition (or just annihilate them, if visuals are to be believed) in the fight for Hyrule...or the Triforce, or...whatever it is they're really fighting over.

But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.
In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared.
With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land.
But the goddesses sent us light spirits to seal away the gigantic magic of those people.

The third line in particular suggests that the Dark Tribe were controlling the land of Hyrule with their dark magic, and this is the line that corresponds with the scene where the tribe destroy a Hyrulian. If the text and image combined doesn't conjure up the image of an iron-fisted tyranny, I don't know what does.

Edited by Raien, 30 May 2009 - 02:19 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The objective of Ganon in ALttP was to cover Hyrule in Darkness, transforming the land into his Makai. But without the Triforce, Ganon attempted that very task in FSA, and came close to succeeding.

My question to you is, why do you think that TP's Dark Tribe went after the Triforce, when they could have just done what FSA Ganon did?

Because there's a big ass glowing golden thingy that delivers total omnipotence over it's ruler, and the Fierce Wars (which this story is TOTALLY ALLUDING TO) was all about seizing it. I don't think the Goddesses would've taken action otherwise, as every other time they intervened, someone was trying to abuse this Power and Providence. Just covering the land in darkness doesn't seem to cut it.

Hang on a second. Isn't the "Makai" a land connected to its ruler, the Maou? So wouldn't Ganon become a Fisher King just by covering Hyrule in darkness?

The Makai and its Maou aren't necessarily connected in all instances, but even so, the Fisher King is the Rightful Ruler of the land who is able to shape it to their whims due to their divine connection with the land. Taking it over with magic and fusing your essence into it doesn't really count. In this case, the Fisher King is basically whoever owns the Triforce.

And comes with a three-year guarantee (exp. 2007).

....ouch dude.

Thanks. My only concern with this theory though, is that the Triforce has been said to be the cornerstone of the entire world, as much as it is for the land of Hyrule. Still, it's very nice symbolism.

Well, it could've simply went back to the Sacred Realm, which is as close to heaven as we're probably going to get. Though I suppose it's theoretically possible for someone to wish for the Triforce to disappear and rearrange the universe to not need it's presence. Basically, the Triforce is the workaround, then you install the patch, and the Triforce code isn't needed anymore and can be safely deleted.

They did it in a fangame without much trouble, so I guess Nintendo could do it too (though the Triforce didn't really disappear, according to said Fangame's sequel).

[CID Farwin]

Well, it's obvious that Ganon needs to weaken the forces of Light in order to cover Hyrule in Darkness. But the act of weakening Light itself does not transform Hyrule into Ganon's Makai. For example, when Ganon's monsters began ravaging Hyrule in the IW, Hyrule did not become the Makai. When they did the same thing in OoT, Hyrule did not become the Makai. As Ganon was draining the land of "Force" in FSA, that act did not transform Hyrule into the Makai. Only the Forest of Darkness, the first place Ganon struck with the Trident, was officially named the Makai.

So no, I think that in FSA, the Trident was the only thing that could actively transform Hyrule into Ganon's Makai, which gives him the power that only the Triforce had previously been able to give him.

.....You've completely lost me.

But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.
In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared.
With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land.
But the goddesses sent us light spirits to seal away the gigantic magic of those people.

The third line in particular suggests that the Dark Tribe were controlling the land of Hyrule with their dark magic, and this is the line that corresponds with the scene where the tribe destroy a Hyrulian. If the text and image combined doesn't conjure up the image of an iron-fisted tyranny, I don't know what does.

They "tried to rule," So? Ganon/dorf's tried what, 12 times now? The tribe destroying a Hyrulian comes right after we're told about people fighting, and "Link" stabbing "Ilia." I'd assume that they have something to do with each-other.

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 May 2009 - 04:53 PM.

[Raien]

Because there's a big ass glowing golden thingy that delivers total omnipotence over it's ruler, and the Fierce Wars (which this story is TOTALLY ALLUDING TO) was all about seizing it.

It's highly debatable that Lanayru was alluding to the fighting in ALttP's backstory, considering that this line is the only description of it:

しかし、やがて聖地ハイラルを巡り争いが起こった
But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.
But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued…

It's interesting that this is also the line that NOA changed to invent an actual allusion to ALttP's backstory. But the original Japanese line clearly does nothing to allude to fighting over the Triforce.

Furthermore, I think Lanayru also suggests that the Dark Tribe used their dark magic to control Hyrule:

強力な魔力によって聖地を治めようとした
With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land.

This simply doesn't sound like they were just in a race for the Triforce.

I don't think the Goddesses would've taken action otherwise, as every other time they intervened, someone was trying to abuse this Power and Providence. Just covering the land in darkness doesn't seem to cut it.

Considering that the only parallel to the Dark Tribe's sealing is the flooding of Hyrule in TWW's backstory, my opinion is that the goddesses only directly intervene as an act of desperation, when no earthly presence (like a Hero) can save the world. I also apply this belief to Ganon's acquisition of the ToP in TP, which I believe was constructed to revive Hyrule from its own downfall.

That said, arguing the logic of the goddesses (or presuming that there even is a consistent logic) is a pitfall that we could argue forever, because quite simply, we have no idea what the goddesses are ever thinking. Only rampant speculations based on their actions, and this is probably the worst ground to base a theory on.

.....You've completely lost me.

-Hyrule is protected by Light, the force of benevolence.
-To cover Hyrule in Darkness, Ganon must first weaken the protection of Light.
-Various games have shown that Light is weakened by the physical destruction of the land and by the emotional destruction of the people.
-Draining Hyrule of "Force" led to the physical destruction of the land and, as FSA Ganon said, the people as well.
-Only the Trident has actually been an active force in transforming the land of Hyrule into a Makai.
-The fact that FSA Ganon bypasses the acquisition of the Triforce to conquer Hyrule defeats the logic that all villains seek the Triforce to conquer Hyrule.

They "tried to rule," So? Ganon/dorf's tried what, 12 times now?

Yeah, and he failed because a Hero always appeared to thwart him. But the Dark Tribe were foiled by the goddesses, as Lanayru clearly establishes.

The tribe destroying a Hyrulian comes right after we're told about people fighting, and "Link" stabbing "Ilia." I'd assume that they have something to do with each-other.

You're right, I made a mistake. The Hyrulians were fighting each other (the "rivalry over Hyrule") and then the Dark Tribe appeared to control the kingdom with their magic.

Edited by Raien, 30 May 2009 - 05:36 PM.

[SOAP]

What's overcomplicated is, despite that every Zelda game provides a very simple, very obvious timeline connection to a previous game, your assertion that these games cannot be connected because there is no evidence of cultural/technological progression.

First that's not complicated. Perhaps taking simplicity to it's extreme but not complicated. Secondly you can connect the games if you want but it's mostly just fan speculation so technically there's more than one right way to assemble the games. I also don't assert that one game cannot be connected to another. There's direct sequels like LA is to ALttP and TP and TWW are obvious sequels to OoT. Beyond that there's not much to go one except that we're supposed to take LoZ to be after ALttP and ALttP after OoT. Most of the games can fit almost anywhere, hence the debates. It's not all that obvious.

This is true enough, but timeline theorising is a general amalgamation of both the game orders and the general mythology. Even if the fan translations only shed new light on the general mythology, that is still important to theorists.

And there's different version of real world mythology. How many version of Hercules are there again? If people prefer the mythos created by NOA just let them be. It's one thing to show them what the Japanese version is but it seemed like your attitude was that this preference is wrong and should be stamped out of the fan community so taht everyone agrees with you. I go by the Japanese mythos when available to me but I wouldn't force that on others and tell them they're wrong for going by the NOA translations. If that is not what you intended then I apologize.

Because, FOR THE SECOND TIME SAYING THIS, we have fan translators that are adept at the workings of Eastern philosophy.

Yes but you still put you still take the information given to you and interpret it your own way.

Edited by SOAP, 30 May 2009 - 07:04 PM.

[Raien]

There's direct sequels like LA is to ALttP and TP and TWW are obvious sequels to OoT. Beyond that there's not much to go one except that we're supposed to take LoZ to be after ALttP and ALttP after OoT. Most of the games can fit almost anywhere, hence the debates. It's not all that obvious.

Umm, actually everything except the FS trilogy and Oracles has a clear and obvious placement.

ALttP takes place before LoZ because it features the origin of Ganon, and explains the origin of Hyrule and the Triforce. That's obvious.
OoT takes place before ALttP because it shows the Hylians, which were said to have died out before ALttP. That's obvious.
We can then specify that ALttP takes place on the Child Timeline because Hyrule is destroyed in TWW. That's obvious.

So most of the games don't fit just anywhere; 9/14 games to be exact.

And there's different version of real world mythology. How many version of Hercules are there again? If people prefer the mythos created by NOA just let them be. It's one thing to show them what the Japanese version is but it seemed like your attitude was that this preference is wrong and should be stamped out of the fan community so taht everyone agrees with you. I go by the Japanese mythos when available to me but I wouldn't force that on others and tell them they're wrong for going by the NOA translations. If that is not what you intended then I apologize.

It depends on the purpose for debate. If people want to choose their own sources and make up their own timelines, we can't stop people from doing that. We're not internet police. But if people want to reach the shared goal of understanding Nintendo's timeline, then it's only to be expected that they stick to established sources of canon. Of course, people are free to debate the accuracy of certain sources, and we have debated quite a lot on that subject. But it's exactly because of those debates that no one really has any faith in NOA's translations. The discrepancies between NOA and the literal Japanese script are just too big to be ignored, and the fan translations have clarified a lot of confusion created solely by NOA's translations.

Yes but you still put you still take the information given to you and interpret it your own way.

What are you trying to say here? That because I'm a Westerner, I can never comprehend Eastern philosophy, no matter how well-explained it is by someone well-versed in it? That's like saying because I'm not a Christian, I can never truly comprehend Christianity. It just doesn't work in practice.


Btw, did you read MPS's response to your post about cyclical time? I'll quote it for you:

Well, for one, you're thinking of the Chinese. Two, cyclical time doesn't mean things repeat, it means things go on without an ultimate beginning or end. The universe is, was, and will always be, and therefore events repeat if the reason for them hasn't been learned, etc. This doesn't mean that the timeline makes a literal causal loop, or that time is ended, rebooted, or remade, it simply means that, if, say, people don't learn that oppressing black people was wrong because oppression is WRONG, they'll oppress someone else, such as gay people or chinese people.

[SOAP]

ALttP takes place before LoZ because it features the origin of Ganon, and explains the origin of Hyrule and the Triforce. That's obvious. [I alraedy mentioned this one]
OoT takes place before ALttP because it shows the Hylians, which were said to have died out before ALttP. That's obvious. [I alraedy called that one into question. We're told this yes, but OoT's Hylians are not at all different from their LttP descendants. Anyways we can debate this over and over we'll never go anywhere.]
We can then specify that ALttP takes place on the Child Timeline because Hyrule is destroyed in TWW. That's obvious. [It can also be it's own continuity with the pre-TWW games also. That's not an argument for cyclical time though.]

There are also anomalies. Such as Oracles which has knights in OoS admit to Link that they're Hylians even though Oracles makes the most sense post ALttP when Hylians are supposed to be extinct.

depends on the purpose for debate. If people want to choose their own sources and make up their own timelines, we can't stop people from doing that. We're not internet police. But if people want to reach the shared goal of understanding Nintendo's timeline, then it's only to be expected that they stick to established sources of canon. Of course, people are free to debate the accuracy of certain sources, and we have debated quite a lot on that subject. But it's exactly because of those debates that no one really has any faith in NOA's translations. The discrepancies between NOA and the literal Japanese script are just too big to be ignored, and the fan translations have clarified a lot of confusion created solely by NOA's translations.

Clearing up confusion is good. But at a certain point it becomes nitpicking. Whether the Sacred Realm is involved in TP or not does not change one's understanding of the timeline in an adverse way and in fact it would bridge ALttP to TP so I don't see why you're so against it.

What are you trying to say here? That because I'm a Westerner, I can never comprehend Eastern philosophy, no matter how well-explained it is by someone well-versed in it? That's like saying because I'm not a Christian, I can never truly comprehend Christianity. It just doesn't work in practice.

No. But it would be wrong if you weren't Christian, went up to someone who was Muslim, told them that according to your Christian friends and what you've read from the the Bible that Islam is whack and the Quran is unreliable.

Btw, did you read MPS's response to your post about cyclical time? I'll quote it for you:

I raed it. I used Battlestar Galactica to describe what I maent by Cyclical time. It's the same exact thing as MPS described. Man creates Cylons. Cylons evolve. They rebel. Kobol is nuked. Cylons flee. They find their own world. Call it Earth. Create their own Cylons. These new Cylons rebbel against their humanoid Cylon masters. 2,000 years later, on 12 colonies founded by the survivors of exodus from Kobol, Man creates Cylons.All of this has happened before.

That's a simmilar thing to how Hyrule seems to work.

Edited by SOAP, 31 May 2009 - 01:28 AM.

[Sparx401]

Such as Oracles which has knights in OoS admit to Link that they're Hylians even though Oracles makes the most sense post ALttP when Hylians are supposed to be extinct.

Well, it says that the specific CLAN was gone (the clan which guarded the Crest of Courage and whatnot) and Link is the last one. It doesn't make sense to say that Hyrule doesn't have ANY sort of defense anymore since that one family is all gone. Also, even in LttP we see guards that are under Agahnim's control and in the ending, they're back to normal. We have knights/soldiers in the SAME GAME that tells us of a clan/family of knights that once existed. This isn't an anomaly at all.

No. But it would be wrong if you weren't Christian, went up to someone who was Muslim, told them that according to your Christian friends and what you've read from the the Bible that Islam is whack and the Quran is unreliable.

Well then it doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not (in other words, one's position on a matter is exclusive of whether a source is reliable or not). This would call the sources into question and require a vigorous breakdown of the argument, the presuppositions, the concrete evidence, and so on. Personally as a Christian, I recently did research on gnosticism (because of my avid affection for apologetics no doubt) and had to learn from both Christian and non-Christian sources. Now, we must verify these sources based on their knowledge and application of their knowledge (high credentials? Best in the field? Widely acclaimed? What do their critics say? Are they good in one area, but not another?) And we can go on and on and on, but essentially, I don't need to be something or live out another belief set or paradigm in order to understand and argue a relative topic. We rely on others to do what we honestly can't, and that's why I bring up apologetics; they can't sensibly get a degree in every single field and learn all the different ANE languages, understand the cultures, and so on...they rely on other people in their respective fields who they themselves are honest about the data and present their findings in articles, magazines, websites, or scholarly journals. Raien (as well as other people) are not adept in Japanese culture or the Japanese language (and here I am feeling sorry for myself since I'm Japanese but I only speak broken Japanese and virtually no kanji...), we rely on many people who do know the culture and the language. Of course, we aren't going to bring in the experts because they have better things to do, but who we do have is sufficient in being able to trace back what exactly the developers were trying to convey originally.

You may be right in that there could be many interpretations on many passages because a language such as Japanese tends to be ambiguous and not "strict" on wording like in English, but the fact of the matter is that we can narrow down what is meant, and most of the time, many of the interpretations mean virtually the same thing (meaning that they convey the SAME message, but worded slightly differently; this isn't a problem). The only problem would be if the actual message itself is conveyed wrongly by one translator. We would have to call in others and see what the actual message is.

[Raien]

OoT takes place before ALttP because it shows the Hylians, which were said to have died out before ALttP. That's obvious. [I alraedy called that one into question. We're told this yes, but OoT's Hylians are not at all different from their LttP descendants. Anyways we can debate this over and over we'll never go anywhere.]

What does it matter if they're not all that different? As long as the descendants are established to be non-Hylians, we don't need anything more to establish progression between OoT and ALttP.

We can then specify that ALttP takes place on the Child Timeline because Hyrule is destroyed in TWW. That's obvious. [It can also be it's own continuity with the pre-TWW games also. That's not an argument for cyclical time though.]

What do you mean? TWW establishes that the state of the Triforce had not changed since the aftermath of OoT, so ALttP could not possibly take place pre-TWW.

There are also anomalies. Such as Oracles which has knights in OoS admit to Link that they're Hylians even though Oracles makes the most sense post ALttP when Hylians are supposed to be extinct.

There are plot inconsistencies in a lot of fictional narratives, but never have the clear and obvious progressions been called into question because of them.

Clearing up confusion is good. But at a certain point it becomes nitpicking. Whether the Sacred Realm is involved in TP or not does not change one's understanding of the timeline in an adverse way and in fact it would bridge ALttP to TP so I don't see why you're so against it.

I'm against it because I think it's wrong. As I said, there are lots of people who are happy picking and choosing their own personal timelines, but many of us are just interested in looking for the truth. I think that the Sacred Realm is not involved in TP because the evidence leads me to that conclusion; nothing else matters to me.

As for whether this debate changes our view of the timeline in any adverse way, that doesn't matter. It's a hobby. Just as a lot of people a happy to slave over the obscure details in real history, I'm just as happy to do the same with the Zelda timeline. If that's not your interest, then nothing's stopping you from starting your own topic and discussing what interests you.

No. But it would be wrong if you weren't Christian, went up to someone who was Muslim, told them that according to your Christian friends and what you've read from the the Bible that Islam is whack and the Quran is unreliable.

This has to be the most ridiculous comment I've heard from you... ever. Not only does it have absolutely no relation with how timeline theorists deal with different texts, but it doesn't seem to make sense in itself. If this is how you view timeline theorising, then it's really no wonder you don't understand what we're doing.

[SOAP]

Two things:

What YOU talking about? I didn't say LttP fits after TWW. I was positing that ALttP and the other pre-TWW games can easily be it's own continuity that's only loosely connected to the post-TWW games. Lots of fictional works reboot their continuity. Look at our American comics. Anime does this frequently. Video games do it [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. Of course that's not what cyclical time is either but interpretation is just as valid.

Secondly, I DO post topics taht interest me. Also where do you get the idea I don't want to to discuss the timeline. But I can do so without being an elitist either and telling people they're wrong for not going by the Japanese text. It's one thing to share that information with others but this whole attitude that people who don't use the Japanese text are aren't looking for the truth is elitism. Truth is highly subjective thing and no one of us have any authority to say what's true just because we use one version of the text over the other.

Edited by SOAP, 31 May 2009 - 01:44 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's highly debatable that Lanayru was alluding to the fighting in ALttP's backstory, considering that this line is the only description of it:

I wasn't talking about LTTP's backstory.

I also apply this belief to Ganon's acquisition of the ToP in TP, which I believe was constructed to revive Hyrule from its own downfall.

What downfall?

[avroillusion]

A better allusion would be Christians fighting over the many different versions of the Bible rather than fighting between other religions...comparing opinions on the Zelda timeline to religious conflict is somewhat in poor taste. It feels kinda like Goodwin's...

Not all truth is subjective. Methods of explaining and expressing truth can be. Truth predicts observable evidence that is consistent with the statement. It's more than a point of view. Truth contains information; it deals with the details of reality. The Zelda series isn't real so you can argue how much truth means but you can stick the games where you want as long as it fits in with the evidence.

[CID Farwin]

-Hyrule is protected by Light, the force of benevolence.

Debatable, but gotcha.

-To cover Hyrule in Darkness, Ganon must first weaken the protection of Light.

Yeah.

-Various games have shown that Light is weakened by the physical destruction of the land and by the emotional destruction of the people.

Here's where I say "citation needed"

-Draining Hyrule of "Force" led to the physical destruction of the land and, as FSA Ganon said, the people as well.

...okay.

-Only the Trident has actually been an active force in transforming the land of Hyrule into a Makai.

The Trident and, y'know, the Triforce.

-The fact that FSA Ganon bypasses the acquisition of the Triforce to conquer Hyrule defeats the logic that all villains seek the Triforce to conquer Hyrule.

So that's what this is all for?

I've asked you twice now when I said that every villain has to be after the Trifroce, and since you've ignored it, I'm assuming that you're just attacking a strawman so everyone can see how right you are.

I never said that every villain is after the Triforce, just that the Twili's ancestors were.

Yeah, and he failed because a Hero always appeared to thwart him. But the Dark Tribe were foiled by the goddesses, as Lanayru clearly establishes.

And in TWW, (TP's "parallel" game) Ganondorf was foiled by the Goddesses.

[Raien]

What YOU talking about? I didn't say LttP fits after TWW. I was positing that ALttP and the other pre-TWW games can easily be it's own continuity that's only loosely connected to the post-TWW games. Lots of fictional works reboot their continuity. Look at our American comics. Anime does this frequently. Video games do it [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. Of course that's not what cyclical time is either but interpretation is just as valid.

Oh, I see what you mean. It's possible, but not necessary because there is one timeline for all the games, according to Aonuma.

Secondly, I DO post topics taht interest me. Also where do you get the idea I don't want to to discuss the timeline. But I can do so without being an elitist either and telling people they're wrong for not going by the Japanese text. It's one thing to share that information with others but this whole attitude that people who don't use the Japanese text are aren't looking for the truth is elitism. Truth is highly subjective thing and no one of us have any authority to say what's true just because we use one version of the text over the other.

Tell that to a historian. "Truth is subjective, and therefore you are wrong to tell me that I cannot use mistranslated/doctored quotations as facts. THAT'S ELITIST!!!"

Right, I'm done debating with you. Your argument has been getting increasingly ridiculous and it's clear you don't have a leg to stand on.

I wasn't talking about LTTP's backstory.

So you were referring to OoT's back story? How did that allude to taking the Triforce in any way?

What downfall?

Well, "downfall" was probably the wrong word, but various characters in TP said that Hyrule was lacking its former glory, and needed a role model to inspire strength and courage in the people.

Here's where I say "citation needed"

It's kind of demonstrated by the fact that every attempt by Ganon to transform Hyrule into his Makai is preluded by the kingdom's general destruction, the people's suffering, and sometimes a direct attack on the force of Light itself. The only effect this has is to make the world darker.

I've asked you twice now when I said that every villain has to be after the Trifroce, and since you've ignored it, I'm assuming that you're just attacking a strawman so everyone can see how right you are.

I never said that every villain is after the Triforce, just that the Twili's ancestors were.

Okay, this quote from your initial post is what I've been arguing against throughout this topic:

Why would you invade Hyrule? to get to the Sacred Ream. Why would you fight to get to the sacred realm? so you can get the Triforce. Why would you want the Triforce? so you can rule Hyrule. It's all very circular to me, since basically they're all meaning the same thing.

The way you present this point implies a universal recognition in every game, in order to justify that the Triforce and Hyrule mean the same thing. But if it's not universal, and the Triforce and Hyrule do not universally mean the same thing, then I have to wonder why is it that you believe the Dark Tribe went after the Triforce when Lanayru implied no such thing, and the Triforce image is surrounded by several symbolic images.

And in TWW, (TP's "parallel" game) Ganondorf was foiled by the Goddesses.

We're going off the point here. "Tried to rule" clearly indicates that the Dark Tribe failed in their conquest of the land of Hyrule. It does not refer to failing to find a mystical artifact. It never has (whether within or outside of a Zelda game), and it never will.

Edited by Raien, 02 June 2009 - 08:44 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

So you were referring to OoT's back story? How did that allude to taking the Triforce in any way?

Are you joking? You realize what those wars were about? You know, greed for the Triforce, people accusing each other of having it and/or the secret of getting it, radda radda Link's mom dies and hands him to the Deku Tree?

[Raien]

Are you joking? You realize what those wars were about? You know, greed for the Triforce, people accusing each other of having it and/or the secret of getting it, radda radda Link's mom dies and hands him to the Deku Tree?

As far as I recall, the only reference to the "Fierce War" in OoT was from the Deku Tree Sprout, whose description of it said nothing about the Triforce. You must be confusing it with ALttP's manual; that's the only place where fighting for the Triforce is mentioned.

Edited by Raien, 02 June 2009 - 12:27 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Tell that to a historian. "Truth is subjective, and therefore you are wrong to tell me that I cannot use mistranslated/doctored quotations as facts. THAT'S ELITIST!!!"

Right, I'm done debating with you. Your argument has been getting increasingly ridiculous and it's clear you don't have a leg to stand on.

I know you said this to SOAP, but it just irritates me that you have to take this sort of attitude with everyone and every opinion that differs from yours.

You're a historian of a video game? That's not Elitist? Historians are different, because they actually have some authority on the subject. Did you work for years to get a masters degree of The Legend of Zelda? No. You're just a fan that's played the games, same as the rest of us. Your opinions are no more valid than ours. The Zelda mythos isn't like History, where there definitely is one way that things happened. It is subjective; in fact, they seem to change how things work with every game. If I remember correctly, TP actually involved a lot of corroboration between NoJ and NoA, so I wouldn't say that one version is definitely more "Canon." Only the developers can determine that. There's a difference between contradicting developers/games, and using what one believes to be correct.

But I will agree that NoA has made some major mistakes.

It's kind of demonstrated by the fact that every attempt by Ganon to transform Hyrule into his Makai is preluded by the kingdom's general destruction, the people's suffering, and sometimes a direct attack on the force of Light itself. The only effect this has is to make the world darker.

Fine, I'll be less subtle: Quote me.

Okay, this quote from your initial post is what I've been arguing against throughout this topic:

Why would you invade Hyrule? to get to the Sacred Ream. Why would you fight to get to the sacred realm? so you can get the Triforce. Why would you want the Triforce? so you can rule Hyrule. It's all very circular to me, since basically they're all meaning the same thing.

really? I thought you were arguing against a strawman:

The idea that the Triforce is necessary for conquering Hyrule IS AN ASSUMPTION.

The way you present this point implies a universal recognition in every game, in order to justify that the Triforce and Hyrule mean the same thing.

But they do. I think you're completely missing the implications of "Cosmic keystone" and "Fisher King." When you obtain the entire Triforce ("True Force to govern all," to quote OoT) you're practically instantly king. This is why Ganondorf thinks himself rightful ruler of Hyrule in TP. Why would someone conquer Hyrule and completely ignore the McGuffin of Supreme Power? To go with your LoTR example, it's like saying Sauron doesn't need the One Ring to conquer Middle Earth. (which he technically doesn't.)

Yes, yes, I know. FSA. But think about it, Ganon's tried the Triforce route at least once already, is it so hard to think that maybe he's just trying something different?

But if it's not universal, and the Triforce and Hyrule do not universally mean the same thing, then I have to wonder why is it that you believe the Dark Tribe went after the Triforce when Lanayru implied no such thing, and the Triforce image is surrounded by several symbolic images.

You've admitted yourself that it's impossible to symbolically represent the Triforce, so don't keep that up. You've said it's not only because of the Text, which is what I challenge.

Why am I so insistent that they went after the Triforce? because we see the freakin' Triforce! This is why I believe they changed the text, because if they meant it to be Hyrule, then they could have done it differently (I would have done some sort of King-of-the-Hill thing if I wanted to show them fighting over Hyrule, and not the Triforce.)

And in TWW, (TP's "parallel" game) Ganondorf was foiled by the Goddesses.

We're going off the point here. "Tried to rule" clearly indicates that the Dark Tribe failed in their conquest of the land of Hyrule. It does not refer to failing to find a mystical artifact. It never has (whether within or outside of a Zelda game), and it never will.

Why is obtaining the Triforce exclusive of ruling Hyrule? How, if they're after the Triforce, are they not trying to take over Hyrule?

As far as I recall, the only reference to the "Fierce War" in OoT was from the Deku Tree Sprout, whose description of it said nothing about the Triforce. You must be confusing it with ALttP's manual; that's the only place where fighting for the Triforce is mentioned.

because OoT wasn't supposed to be ALttP's backstory or anything...

Edited by CID Farwin, 02 June 2009 - 03:12 PM.