63 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Oracles easily bridges the gap between TP and and ALttP. I'd then have the FS games after Oracles.

But that only works if Link and Zelda managed to get the Triforce of Power from Ganon in TP, which doesn't seem the case.
And when you say you would then have the FS games after Oracles, you mean before ALttP? And are you talking of FS and FSA alone or also MC?

[MikePetersSucks]

Do people really not consider the Mastersword in the Oracle series important to it's time line placement. If aLttp's ending it to be taken literally that places the Oracles before ALttP. If you have a timeline with OoT> MM >> TP>> ALttP, Oracles easily bridges the gap between TP and and ALttP. I'd then have the FS games after Oracles.

People discredit the Master Sword in Oracles because it's not part of the plot, it's not in Hyrule, you get it by fixing a rusted and broken blade instead of being chosen by the sword, etc. It has absolutely none of the fucking properties except a name.

and Oracles and the FS games don't work where you put them. Do TP Link and Zelda take the Triforce of Power from the dead Ganondorf? If so, why did it disappear in the ending? Why is seeing Midna off such a sad moment when they can wish to see her literally any time? Then you have to ask why the Royal Family doesn't use the Triforce to fix the situation during the FS games at any point. If they don't have it any more, why? What the hell happened to it?

[Fin]

I don't strictly take LttP's ending literally, in that I won't disocunt the possibility of Nintendo making a post-LttP game that features the Master Sword. But I think the Oracles' use of it is too much of a secret to really count. In all the other games it's an actual plot item.

[Duke Serkol]

Why is seeing Midna off such a sad moment when they can wish to see her literally any time? Then you have to ask why the Royal Family doesn't use the Triforce to fix the situation during the FS games at any point.

There some things which may lead us to believe that you can only get one wish on the Triforce and once the wish is fulfilled it leaves (though until then no one can claim ownership of the Triforce unless the current owner is slain).
This is suggested by the Triforce flying off at the end of the credits in ALttP, just as it does in TWW after the King wishes upon it... and to a lesser extent, the Triforce disappearing once Zelda is awakened in AoL (but definitely a lesser extent, I mean, where would it be otehrwise? Floating creepily above of Link's head?)
I don't really believe this to be the case, especially since the King of AoL's backstory could rule with the Triforce for his entire lifetime (one could say his wish may have been to rule justly so the Triforce would stick to him up to the end, but even after his death he managed to determine the fate of the various Triforce parts, so that doesn't seem to work), but I do wish I knew where the heck the Triforce went at the end of TWW and why.

As for the Triforce being used to fix things in FSA (going with the assumption that theroyal family had it at the start)... couldn't the same question be asked of Oracles? (In which the Triforce IS in Hyrule castle but Link still has to do everything on his own).

[Sign of Justice]

Mountains in the north? A beach in the south? Water northeast? Desert southeast? Hell, even a castle that becomes ruins just east of center, a lake south of there, and forest-y areas to the west? HOLODRUM IS ACTUALLY KOHOLINT!

Good God someone else actually sees what I've been trying to argue on ZU for months now!

[SOAP]

Do people really not consider the Mastersword in the Oracle series important to it's time line placement. If aLttp's ending it to be taken literally that places the Oracles before ALttP. If you have a timeline with OoT> MM >> TP>> ALttP, Oracles easily bridges the gap between TP and and ALttP. I'd then have the FS games after Oracles.

People discredit the Master Sword in Oracles because it's not part of the plot, it's not in Hyrule, you get it by fixing a rusted and broken blade instead of being chosen by the sword, etc. It has absolutely none of the fucking properties except a name.

and Oracles and the FS games don't work where you put them. Do TP Link and Zelda take the Triforce of Power from the dead Ganondorf? If so, why did it disappear in the ending? Why is seeing Midna off such a sad moment when they can wish to see her literally any time? Then you have to ask why the Royal Family doesn't use the Triforce to fix the situation during the FS games at any point. If they don't have it any more, why? What the hell happened to it?

Okay the FS games don't work but OoX can still fit after TP. TP's ending is kinda vague. We just see Ganon's piece fading just before he dies standing up. Cut to Zant's neck snapping. Cut to Zelda, Link, and Midna in the Mirror Chamber saying their goodbyes. Wait, what happened in between? We don't know. They probably wished for Ganon's evil to be undone. Could explain why the castle is fine even though we see it blow up during the fight with Ganon. The point of Midna's goodbye is taht she couldn't stay,m Triforce or Not. She's the Twilight Princess and she had to be with her people. She broke the ties between their worlds because as long as their world's stayed seperate they each could live in peace until a later, unspecified time when their people are ready to get along. Greed for the Triforce would only turn her people against the people of Hyrule.

Edited by SOAP, 12 April 2009 - 05:59 PM.

[Impossible]

I can never comprehend this. OoX requires dead Trident Ganon and the whole Triforce in Hyrule. Those situations don't exist before ALttP. How the hell can a cameo of a sword that they give the name "Master Sword" for no particular reason outweigh that?

[Duke Serkol]

They probably wished for Ganon's evil to be undone. Could explain why the castle is fine even though we see it blow up during the fight with Ganon.

If that was the case, why not show us Link/Zelda wish on the Triforce in order to revive Midna rather than have the Light Spirits (which, btw were apparently deadly for her previously. Weird) revive her?
Personally, I think it was them who resotred the castle.
Especially because Kakariko is still in shambles, with most of its population likely dead. So I would say TP definitely doesn't have ALttP's happy ending.

[MikePetersSucks]

There some things which may lead us to believe that you can only get one wish on the Triforce and once the wish is fulfilled it leaves (though until then no one can claim ownership of the Triforce unless the current owner is slain).

The Triforce serves you as long as you live.

The point of Midna's goodbye is taht she couldn't stay,m Triforce or Not. She's the Twilight Princess and she had to be with her people.

So why can't the three of them just visit each other once in a while? She destroyed the Mirror because of it's evil powers, so the Triforce should be no problem. It's not like it can be stolen.

She broke the ties between their worlds because as long as their world's stayed seperate they each could live in peace until a later, unspecified time when their people are ready to get along. Greed for the Triforce would only turn her people against the people of Hyrule.

They ARE ready to get along. Zant got pissed because the Twili were mellow and without greed or desire, and his actions probably just showed him they were in the right.

(which, btw were apparently deadly for her previously. Weird)

I figured it was because A) She was only hurt because Lanayru was deliberately attacking and got her accidentally, B) Her merger with Zelda gave her the ability to be in the Light, and she retains this even after the two separated, or C) Being the Twilight Princess and the true ruler who controls the Mirror, she naturally gets the power, but this was limited when she was in her cursed imp form.

[Duke Serkol]

I figured it was because A) She was only hurt because Lanayru was deliberately attacking and got her accidentally, B) Her merger with Zelda gave her the ability to be in the Light, and she retains this even after the two separated, or C) Being the Twilight Princess and the true ruler who controls the Mirror, she naturally gets the power, but this was limited when she was in her cursed imp form.

Yeah, if I was to pick one, I'd say it's likely B. But I still think it's rather weird.

[Impossible]

Come on, don't let this die so easily. We're better than this, but we make ourselves look pathetic by posting so little. >_> I'm interested in hearing arguments for other placements, especially the fairly common ALttP/LA-OoS/OoA-LoZ/AoL.

[KJ Contrarian]

Come on, don't let this die so easily. We're better than this, but we make ourselves look pathetic by posting so little. >_> I'm interested in hearing arguments for other placements, especially the fairly common ALttP/LA-OoS/OoA-LoZ/AoL.

The problem with Oracles discussion is that the games almost always wind up getting placed based on one’s individual timeline, mostly because they really only have two requirements – The Triforce in the LW, Trident Ganon is dead, and perhaps also Twinrova being alive if you value “her” appearance in the linked game.

Ultimately, Oracles must follow either ALTTP or TWW, because that’s the only two possibilities I can see for the Triforce being in the LW. Both carry assumptions – After ALLTP, Link has to have brought the Triforce into the LW post-game (Unseen event), and After TWW, the Triforce spinning away does NOT mean it goes to the SR (Plus, a “New” Hyrule is formed – Unseen event).

From there, though, it’s really taking your pick, based on your individual timeline. There’s little else in Oracles other than that which demands a specific placement. For example, I place them after ALTTP in the CT, but that’s mostly because I see ALTTP there, I value the Twinrova appearance as an important storyline & timeline character appearance, and I don’t even have LoZ/AoL in the CT so that leaves that out. But that’s just me.

If there is a specific reason why Oracles can be in an unorthodox timeline or sandwiched between ALTTP & LOZ I would be most interested in hearing it.

[Erimgard]

Ultimately, Oracles must follow either ALTTP or TWW, because that’s the only two possibilities I can see for the Triforce being in the LW.

Adventure of Link?

The Triforce is even resting in a Hyrulean castle/palace, though not Hyrule Castle proper. All three pieces are together in the LW. Doesn't take much to assume that when the Kingdom was done being rebuilt (as talked about in the AoL manual) that the completed Triforce would be moved to Hyrule Castle.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ultimately, Oracles must follow either ALTTP or TWW, because that’s the only two possibilities I can see for the Triforce being in the LW. Both carry assumptions – After ALLTP, Link has to have brought the Triforce into the LW post-game (Unseen event), and After TWW, the Triforce spinning away does NOT mean it goes to the SR (Plus, a “New” Hyrule is formed – Unseen event).

You forgot AOL, and there's no Trident Ganon on the TWW timeline. That, and King Daphnes' wish was pretty much to make sure there would be no new Hyrule.

And the Triforce is totally in the Sacred Realm. XP

[KJ Contrarian]

Yes, AoL can be before Oracles, but then either ALTTP (Or TWW) would have to be before AoL as LoZ/AoL does not tell how the Triforce gets to the LW in-game. My point was actually not what games can come directly before Oracles, but what choice of games ultimately must come before Oracles for the Triforce to be in the LW. That's all I meant.

No Trident Ganon on the TWW timeline? Not necessarily. Aonuma did say they were "Thinking" of FS as the oldest game, didn't he? And that FSA was a sequel to that? I've never seen it proven that the quote was a mistranslation, or that it absolutely cannot be true.

Most theorists I have seen believe FSA comes before ALTTP, and that at "Some point" after FSA the FS (With Trident Ganon sealed inside) is placed in the SR (Evidenced by the PotFS in the ALTTP GBA), where Trident Ganon escapes, grabs the Triforce, leading to ALTTP, etc. It is not known for certain exactly when the "Some point" takes place. If Aonuma's statement is correct, and the FS series is before OoT, then that "Some point" (Where the FS is placed in the SR) could be before OoT. Nothing excludes that being a possibility in Aonuma's scenario.

If FS/FSA are before OoT, then we have two Trident Ganons:

One in the CT, who shortly before ALTTP breaks free from the FS, finds the Triforce whole in the SR, and wishes on it.

One in the AT, who as far as we know still remains in the FS sealed in the SR (PotFS) that OoT Ganondorf corrupted. This would, of course, open the possibility that should this AT Trident Ganon escape the FS like his CT counterpart did, he could easily emerge for a future game on the AT.

Edited by KJ Contrarian, 06 May 2009 - 01:57 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

The Triforce is even resting in a Hyrulean castle/palace, though not Hyrule Castle proper.

Speculation?

[Impossible]

There's an obvious difference between assuming the "unseen event" of what happens to the Triforce after TWW (whether to set up OoX or LoZ or any other game) and assuming the "unseen event" of Link, the master of the Triforce, taking the Triforce back with him to Hyrule. One is the logical, inferred, most natiural sequence of events, and no feasible alternative has ever actually been proposed. The other is people manipulating events to suit a particular theory, when it's not a logical sequence of events, but merely mass speculation. Try explaining this difference to you-know-who, though...

[MikePetersSucks]

No Trident Ganon on the TWW timeline? Not necessarily. Aonuma did say they were "Thinking" of FS as the oldest game, didn't he? And that FSA was a sequel to that? I've never seen it proven that the quote was a mistranslation, or that it absolutely cannot be true.

They were also "thinking of" having FSA be the Imprisoning War, so this doesn't really count for shit. Either way, the last Ganondorf on the TWW line had no intention of using piggy form at all.

[Erimgard]

The Triforce is even resting in a Hyrulean castle/palace, though not Hyrule Castle proper.

Speculation?

No.
Princess Zelda is in the "North Castle".
That's where you go in the end of the game, complete the Triforce, and awaken Zelda.

[Duke Serkol]

No, I mean... how do you know the one we see in Oracle couldn't be North Castle? Granted, the manual calls it Hyrule Castle, but it wouldn't really make sense to anyone who hasn't played AoL to call it North Castle (people would wonder what it is north of).
And since North Castle is not out of the Hyrule region it could very well come to be called Hyrule Castle.

...not that any of this really matters since, like you say, it's just a spossible that a new Hyrule Castle was built in the Small Kingdom and the Triforce was moved into it, but ya know...

And this doesn't mean I'm changing my placement to post AoL. I'm just keeping an open mind

[Impossible]

No.
Princess Zelda is in the "North Castle".
That's where you go in the end of the game, complete the Triforce, and awaken Zelda.

But nothing indicates that the Triforce would still be in North Castle, just because Zelda was.

Anyway, the North/Hyrule distinction is fairly silly when Hyrule Castle didn't exist until ALttP.

Edited by Impossible, 07 May 2009 - 09:10 PM.

[SOAP]

No.
Princess Zelda is in the "North Castle".
That's where you go in the end of the game, complete the Triforce, and awaken Zelda.

But nothing indicates that the Triforce would still be in North Castle, just because Zelda was.

Anyway, the North/Hyrule distinction is fairly silly when Hyrule Castle didn't exist until ALttP.

In the artwork, North Castle kinda reminds me of Hyrule Castle from OoT. Just saying.

[KJ Contrarian]

Anyway, the North/Hyrule distinction is fairly silly when Hyrule Castle didn't exist until ALttP.

Why is it so silly? Hyrule Castle from ALTTP is in the Death Mountain area. North Castle from AoL is not, and as per its name, far to the North.

Two distinct castles, in two very distinct locations. If the OoS manual made it a point to call out the Oracles castle as “Hyrule Castle”, then that makes some kind of statement about the state of Oracles Hyrule.

From there, it’s a debate over what having a “Hyrule Castle” means. Is it the same “Hyrule” Castle as in ALTTP? Did North Castle change its name to Hyrule Castle after AoL? Is it an entirely unrelated castle?

I have my own opinion on that, or course, but all I am saying is that it’s not unreasonable to ask questions about the distinction. If Oracles follows AoL, as most people believe, then what’s the explanation for differences in the castle names?

Edited by KJ Contrarian, 08 May 2009 - 07:47 AM.

[Impossible]

You know, it would help if you looked at both lines of my post... The issue is, nothing suggests that the Triforce should be in North Castle anyway. That's just where the game ended because Link went to awaken Zelda.

Also, lolNESgeography.

[Erimgard]

No, I mean... how do you know the one we see in Oracle couldn't be North Castle? Granted, the manual calls it Hyrule Castle, but it wouldn't really make sense to anyone who hasn't played AoL to call it North Castle (people would wonder what it is north of).
And since North Castle is not out of the Hyrule region it could very well come to be called Hyrule Castle.

...not that any of this really matters since, like you say, it's just a spossible that a new Hyrule Castle was built in the Small Kingdom and the Triforce was moved into it, but ya know...

And this doesn't mean I'm changing my placement to post AoL. I'm just keeping an open mind

I see what you mean, but it's not speculation.
Assuming that North Castle=Hyrule Castle would be speculating. Assuming their not is not speculation as they have different names and are not implied to be the same.

[Impossible]

LOL, but on ZU, it's not speculation at all to use Oracle maps to match AoL or LoZ or some crap. Even though it's a stated fact that the games were originally going to be remakes and a sequel. Even though none of the places have the same name or purpose, or can be proven to be the same, so it's utterly useless wild mass guessing.

[Duke Serkol]

I see what you mean, but it's not speculation.
Assuming that North Castle=Hyrule Castle would be speculating. Assuming their not is not speculation as they have different names and are not implied to be the same.

Well, it certainly would be more speculative to think the castle of Oracles is North Castle, I agree. But also thinking that it has to be another castle, specifically one that has to be in the Death Mountain area of Hyrule, is speculation because we can't consider it a fact. Especially since we know that over the course of time several castles were built in that area alone.

Interestingly, though it seems the castle of Ocarina did not survive into the next game for both timelines (in the adult timeline Ganon replaced it with his castle and in the child timeline, in TP, it seems that castle is gone in favor of the one that would later become that of ALttP), the castle we see in Oracle's introdution is identical in looks (not so much in position, perhaps) to that of Oot (and Smash Bros 64)

[Crazy Penguin]

Even though it's a stated fact that the games were originally going to be remakes and a sequel.

Remake. Singular. One remake of the original Zelda and two new games. There were never plans to remake Adventure of Link, it was a completely different style of game.

[Impossible]

It's hard to find specifics on whether or not AoL was planned as well, although this page seems to suggest it was. I think I'm missing some resources or interviews on OoX, though, including some stuff that was never translated from Japanese (except the first part or two of the former one) that might explain its development better. I think with that many Zelda games supposedly in development, and with the idea of a sequel to LoZ in mind, they must have been planning to include AoL as well. In reality it wasn't THAT many games, and IGN probably said that because they had information on various ideas Nintendo were experimenting with at the same times, like doing both remakes and new games.

Edited by Impossible, 09 May 2009 - 09:33 AM.

[Raien]

Wikipedia says:

Yoshiki Okamoto, a game director for Capcom, worked with a team to create a Zelda title, but could not agree on the direction the development should take. Okamoto wanted to remake the original Legend of Zelda for the Game Boy Color, using it as a test and moving on to a "more ambitious game" if successful. Other members of the team wanted to create an original Zelda title immediately.[29] Dismayed by the rate at which the team had been spending money for a year without results, Okamoto recruited Capcom director Yoshifumi Yamashita to the team. He also asked Shigeru Miyamoto, the game designer at Nintendo who created the series, for help.[29] Nintendo and Capcom began collaborating concurrently on six Game Boy Color Zelda titles: two based on previous games and four original works.[30]

The design team immediately ran into several problems. First, Okamoto wanted to release games in quick succession, spacing sequels only four or five months apart. Because Nintendo does not work in this fashion and Miyamoto was involved with other projects, the team asked Flagship, a design studio headed by Okamoto and funded by Nintendo, Sega, and Capcom,[31] to develop scenarios for the games.[32] This is in sharp contrast to Miyamoto's usual strategy of creating a game's plot and setting only after the gameplay has been defined. As a result, Flagship had to constantly rework the scenario and maps to match the changing gameplay.[29] The Game Boy Color's screen presented additional problems when attempting to rework existing Zelda titles. Since the Game Boy Color's screen is narrower than that of a television, players could not view an entire room without scrolling; this made it easy for the player to overlook stairways or clues on walls.[29]