90 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

Good argument, but the fact that the Fortune Teller has the monsters hide behind a curtain and come out the moment the starring character is unable to see them, clearly indicates a measure of malice... and it's not like the monsters are making him do things against his will since he breaks into laughter.
And strangely, the dungeons are referred to as the "Demon King's"... so none of this really makes much sense >_<
Unless he's conquered them all but for the room behind the bosses, who could be neutral guardians as you suggest. That is what I like to believe at least.

Fair enough. I suppose it could be the normal case of things: The fortune teller is evil and was trying to destroy the Hero of Light, maybe by breaking her spirit, but destiny flipped it on it's ass and made it a growing experience for her.

That is if we assume it is illusionary, which I don't.
I suspect Ganon wanted for the hero to collect the Triforce for him, confident that he would then be able to defeat the kid and take it. Wouldn't be the first time Ganon allows the hero to do stuff because he's overconfident.

"This world will disappear", and with the presence of the word "genkaku", the dialogue is kind've on my side with this one.

Why not seal Ganon in the Dark World in FSA, then?

Well, for one, it's implied that Ganon created the Dark World with the Mirror, and so it probably ceased existing at the end of the game. Plus the Four Sword is a reliable enough seal.

[Duke Serkol]

it could be the normal case of things: The fortune teller is evil and was trying to destroy the Hero of Light, maybe by breaking her spirit, but destiny flipped it on it's ass and made it a growing experience for her.

That could be possible. I would need very solid evidence to believe it but certainly it could be possible.

with the presence of the word "genkaku", the dialogue is kind've on my side with this one.

Okay, pretend for a moment that some of us here do not happen to speak Japanese...

it's implied that Ganon created the Dark World with the Mirror

What implies that?
I'm honestly curious because I find it an interesting idea... though could you clarify whether by create you mean create it out of nothing or out of something (like, say, the Sacred Realm).

[Raien]

It was always obvious that Ganon in FSA did not create the Dark World out of the Sacred Realm, because in order to do that, he would need to possess the Triforce. I'm not even going to bother debating whether or not Ganon has the Triforce in FSA, for obvious reasons.

Whether Ganon created the Dark World out of the Dark Mirror, I'm not so sure. After all, the Dark World still existed during the final battle, after the Dark Mirror was destroyed. Personally, I've always believed that the Dark World was the product of Ganon spreading his dark magic across Hyrule. It represents the transformation of Hyrule into Ganon's territory.

[Duke Serkol]

The Dark Mirror was not destroyed, it was taken by Zelda.

I'm not even going to bother debating whether or not Ganon has the Triforce in FSA, for obvious reasons.

Me neither but for different, likely contrary, reasons *lol*

Anyway, I'm curious to hear what MPS's theory on the matter is...

[MikePetersSucks]

Okay, pretend for a moment that some of us here do not happen to speak Japanese...

Genkaku means Illusion.

What implies that?
I'm honestly curious because I find it an interesting idea... though could you clarify whether by create you mean create it out of nothing or out of something (like, say, the Sacred Realm).

Well, for one, the Dark World pretty much radiates from/around the Temple of Darkness and the forest surrounding it. Second of all, the FSA manga claims that Shadow Link is from the Dark World via the Mirror, and that both are reflections born of it.

[Raien]

Well, for one, the Dark World pretty much radiates from/around the Temple of Darkness and the forest surrounding it.

But the Forest of Darkness was created by Ganondorf's Trident; I would argue that Ganondorf's dark magic is what spread the Dark World.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Well, for one, it's implied that Ganon created the Dark World with the Mirror, and so it probably ceased existing at the end of the game. Plus the Four Sword is a reliable enough seal.

1) Personally, I think the idea that Ganon "created" the Dark World we see in FSA, if it ever was true, has been overridden by the "reenvisioning" of the same elements in TP. The darkened world and cursed mirror have nothing to do with Ganon until he claims the latter in FSA.
2) The Four Sword is a reliable seal? Since when?

[Duke Serkol]

Genkaku means Illusion.

Ah, and what was the context? Was the line "this illusion world" or something that encompassed the whole experience? If it was, then I'd say that would remove all doubts, yes.

Well, for one, the Dark World pretty much radiates from/around the Temple of Darkness and the forest surrounding it.

Ah, that's somethihng I always wondered: did Ganon turn the forest and temple into the dark versions of them that we see in the game in order to take the mirror or after taking it. This could finally provide an answer to that question.

Second of all, the FSA manga claims that Shadow Link is from the Dark World via the Mirror, and that both are reflections born of it.

Uh, I don't recall that last bit (that both would be reflections born of it). Can you tell me what chapter to check?

[MikePetersSucks]

But the Forest of Darkness was created by Ganondorf's Trident; I would argue that Ganondorf's dark magic is what spread the Dark World.

And yet it's called the Dark World, and has the most connections to the actual Dark World, implying it's radiating from there.

1) Personally, I think the idea that Ganon "created" the Dark World we see in FSA, if it ever was true, has been overridden by the "reenvisioning" of the same elements in TP. The darkened world and cursed mirror have nothing to do with Ganon until he claims the latter in FSA.

Not everyone agrees that TP is a reenvisioning.

2) The Four Sword is a reliable seal? Since when?

Well, it only really broke once. So the Four Sword plus a Kekai around it should be satisfactory.

Ah, and what was the context? Was the line "this illusion world" or something that encompassed the whole experience? If it was, then I'd say that would remove all doubts, yes.

"Hurry, or this Genkaku will fade away." Genkaku got translated as world because that's an alternate meaning, the specific word being derived from Buddhism and it's principle that reality is an illusion.

Uh, I don't recall that last bit (that both would be reflections born of it). Can you tell me what chapter to check?

The last chapter Dark Link is in, plus Zelda's speech regarding him I think in a later chapter. Shadow Link is depicted as quite literally Link's shadow, and was brought to life by the Dark Mirror, while also summoned from the Dark World. The dots connect fairly easily even without the clearer speeches.

[Raien]

And yet it's called the Dark World, and has the most connections to the actual Dark World, implying it's radiating from there.

What do you mean by the "actual Dark World"? The Dark World simply refers to Ganon's territory; it's a non-specific location defined purely on the basis that it is covered in dark magic. Both Zelda and Dampe in FSA refer to Hyrule being turned into a Dark World, which at least tells us that Hyrule is in the process of transforming anyway.

I also think the fact that people are getting drawn into the Dark World indicates the wider relationship with Hyrule; namely that the whole kindgom is destined to get drawn into the Dark World if Ganon's sorcery continues as he planned. Thus Hyrule becomes the Dark World.

[Duke Serkol]

"Hurry, or this Genkaku will fade away." Genkaku got translated as world because that's an alternate meaning, the specific word being derived from Buddhism and it's principle that reality is an illusion.

Well that certainly does offer solid basis for your interpretation

Shadow Link is depicted as quite literally Link's shadow, and was brought to life by the Dark Mirror, while also summoned from the Dark World. The dots connect fairly easily even without the clearer speeches.

Ah, I see... but I don't know how reliable I consider those concepts since the later chapters of the manga differ so much from the original story (with Dark Link turning good, the mirror being broken so that Guufu can be defeated etc.)

[Lexxi Aileron]

Not everyone agrees that TP is a reenvisioning.

The same script writer wrote both games, and the plot (Hyrule turning into a Dark World; Ganon using a puppet to achieve his goals) and game elements (dark mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed that reflects people's evil hearts) are largely based on the scenario of FSA. Last time that happened was with ALttP and OoT.

Well, it only really broke once. So the Four Sword plus a Kekai around it should be satisfactory.

It broke once and they suspected that it broke again and got more than they bargained for. Leaving him in the light world would be tragically irresponsible.

[MikePetersSucks]

What do you mean by the "actual Dark World"? The Dark World simply refers to Ganon's territory; it's a non-specific location defined purely on the basis that it is covered in dark magic. Both Zelda and Dampe in FSA refer to Hyrule being turned into a Dark World, which at least tells us that Hyrule is in the process of transforming anyway.

By "actual Dark World" I meant the alternate dimension that is slowly consuming Hyrule.

Ah, I see... but I don't know how reliable I consider those concepts since the later chapters of the manga differ so much from the original story (with Dark Link turning good, the mirror being broken so that Guufu can be defeated etc.)

Fair enough, but it shows a possible intent.

The same script writer wrote both games, and the plot (Hyrule turning into a Dark World; Ganon using a puppet to achieve his goals) and game elements (dark mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed that reflects people's evil hearts) are largely based on the scenario of FSA. Last time that happened was with ALttP and OoT.

The first two points are really vague enough to apply to almost any game, and the second one is also a stretch. "reflects people's evil hearts"; when did this happen in TP?

It broke once and they suspected that it broke again and got more than they bargained for. Leaving him in the light world would be tragically irresponsible.

As opposed to sending him to the dwelling place of the Triforce? Atleast this way they can keep a goddamned eye on him.

[Raien]

By "actual Dark World" I meant the alternate dimension that is slowly consuming Hyrule.

But this dimension has never appeared before FSA; the Dark World always used to be a transformed Sacred Realm. It's due to the unique nature of the Dark World in FSA that I question how it relates to what has come before. In particular, I don't believe in the idea of a permanent Dark World; Ganon's territory has to be created by Ganon.

[MikePetersSucks]

But this dimension has never appeared before FSA; the Dark World always used to be a transformed Sacred Realm. It's due to the unique nature of the Dark World in FSA that I question how it relates to what has come before. In particular, I don't believe in the idea of a permanent Dark World; Ganon's territory has to be created by Ganon.

It doesn't matter where it's coming from. I call it the "Actual Dark World" since it's an ACTUAL DARK WORLD, and not a forest and village that were just magically tainted.

[Raien]

It doesn't matter where it's coming from. I call it the "Actual Dark World" since it's an ACTUAL DARK WORLD, and not a forest and village that were just magically tainted.

I don't agree that FSA's Dark World is something other than the magical taint covering Hyrule. The fact that Hyrule is getting drawn into the Dark World is a concrete indication that it represents the transformation of the kingdom.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The first two points are really vague enough to apply to almost any game

The Dark World actually spreading across Hyrule is a concept only really shown in FSA and TP.
Ganon also has put up fronts, but only in FSA and TP does he actually use puppets.

"reflects people's evil hearts"; when did this happen in TP?

The boss of Snowpeak is a prime and direct example.

As opposed to sending him to the dwelling place of the Triforce? Atleast this way they can keep a goddamned eye on him.

The Triforce may not even be there; your second argument isn't really a strong one since in that case why should they ever send him there at all?

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't agree that FSA's Dark World is something other than the magical taint covering Hyrule. The fact that Hyrule is getting drawn into the Dark World is a concrete indication that it represents the transformation of the kingdom.

Maybe so, but regardless, during this process, the Dark World functions as an alternate plane of existence, thus my terminology.

The Dark World actually spreading across Hyrule is a concept only really shown in FSA and TP.
Ganon also has put up fronts, but only in FSA and TP does he actually use puppets.

What about Agahnim?

The boss of Snowpeak is a prime and direct example.

That was more outright corrupting a totally innocent being, instead of manifesting an evil doppleganger.

The Triforce may not even be there; your second argument isn't really a strong one since in that case why should they ever send him there at all?

The Triforce doesn't seem to be in Hyrule in the FSA era, divided or otherwise, and if FSA comes before LTTP as many people believe, the Triforce is probably in the Sacred Realm. The second point of your seems a little abstract; why shouldn't they have sealed him in the Four Sword?

[Raien]

Maybe so, but regardless, during this process, the Dark World functions as an alternate plane of existence, thus my terminology.

Sure. Your explanation is the most obvious one, and I'd be more accepting if it didn't give me a headache regarding the timeline in general (i.e. what role it plays in other games, how it ties to Ganon's life/death, etc).

[MikePetersSucks]

Sure. Your explanation is the most obvious one, and I'd be more accepting if it didn't give me a headache regarding the timeline in general (i.e. what role it plays in other games, how it ties to Ganon's life/death, etc).

What's so headache inducing? The Dark World was created with the Dark Mirror. Stuff happens involving it and Hyrule. The Mirror is reclaimed and shortly after Ganon is sealed. Dark World soon disappears. QED.

[Raien]

What's so headache inducing? The Dark World was created with the Dark Mirror. Stuff happens involving it and Hyrule. The Mirror is reclaimed and shortly after Ganon is sealed. Dark World soon disappears. QED.

I don't believe the Dark World was created with the Dark Mirror; I find it a stretch at best.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, well, the manga says so, and at best, it gives us a hint of creator's intent. I don't really see how it's a stretch, as this isn't exactly the only case of villains creating pocket universes, or even the first.

[Raien]

Yea, well, the manga says so, and at best, it gives us a hint of creator's intent. I don't really see how it's a stretch, as this isn't exactly the only case of villains creating pocket universes, or even the first.

The OoT manga says that the Sheikah got their symbol for an act of betrayal from Hyrule's Royal family. As long as the manga writers are happy to make up fanfiction, then I don't consider the manga trustworthy sources for the canon.

I think the Dark World-Dark Mirror connection is a stretch because 1) FSA makes no connection between the Dark Mirror and Dark World (despite using "mirror" as a metaphor to describe the Dark World) and 2) because the Dark World has always been associated with Ganon, and continues to be associated with Ganon in FSA.

[Lexxi Aileron]

That was more outright corrupting a totally innocent being, instead of manifesting an evil doppleganger.

Where do you suppose all the monsters in the dungeons came from?

[MikePetersSucks]

The OoT manga says that the Sheikah got their symbol for an act of betrayal from Hyrule's Royal family. As long as the manga writers are happy to make up fanfiction, then I don't consider the manga trustworthy sources for the canon.

Yea, agreed, but the act of betrayal thing is also contradicted by the canon. I don't mind suppositioning things from the manga if it's consistent.

I think the Dark World-Dark Mirror connection is a stretch because 1) FSA makes no connection between the Dark Mirror and Dark World (despite using "mirror" as a metaphor to describe the Dark World) and 2) because the Dark World has always been associated with Ganon, and continues to be associated with Ganon in FSA.

The FS saga seems to play by different rules from the rest of the series. The Four Sword and Master Sword are both blades of Evil's Bane, a power from the Goddesses, but they otherwise have no connection.

Where do you suppose all the monsters in the dungeons came from?

Er...the same place every other fucking monster comes from?

[Lexxi Aileron]

Er...the same place every other fucking monster comes from?

Ever since the boss went funny in the head, there've been
scary monsters everywhere...
[...]
But the moment Darbus reached out and touched the treasure...everything went
wrong.
He collapsed...and before our very eyes transformed into an unspeakable
monster!
[...]
But...since I get mirror, I get sick, and then bad monsters appear...

From either the Twilight, the Fused Shadows, or the Mirror.

Check it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh, I know. but just because monsters appear and are attracted to it doesn't mean they're creations of it. Monsters are attracted to Triforce pieces, pendant, Maidens, and whatever the hell else Link has to collect. It's apparently in their biology to be dicks like that.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Oh, I know. but just because monsters appear and are attracted to it doesn't mean they're creations of it. Monsters are attracted to Triforce pieces, pendant, Maidens, and whatever the hell else Link has to collect. It's apparently in their biology to be dicks like that.

Proof? In most other games, it is from sources of evil that monsters spring.

[Raien]

I have to agree with Lex on this one. The obvious implication is that the monsters were created by the mirror shard.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I have to agree with Lex on this one. The obvious implication is that the monsters were created by the mirror shard.

And the Fused Shadows, Twilight Realm, etc.