90 replies to this topic

[Impossible]

Why are people looking so deeply at an obvious copy/paste job? LoZ BS uses ALttP's back story because it provides an origin for the characters, as opposed to just saying "Here's the villain. Here's what you have to do to kill him".

Actually, that's kind of my point, but I want to be sure that there isn't other story information about BS LoZ that we're missing. It would be a bit premature to look at this only and not see if the actual LoZ story comes in somewhere. Obviously you're still getting Triforce of Wisdom pieces, right?

They do? Where have the creators said they think KnS is a true Zelda game?

It's in the Zelda no Video documentary. I don't think anyone considers BS LoZ a true Zelda game, though.

[Raien]

It's in the Zelda no Video documentary. I don't think anyone considers BS LoZ a true Zelda game, though.

Oh right. It's been an age since I read that. Anyone have a link for me?

[Lexxi Aileron]

If we treat the BS games as serious reflections of the canon, then we miss the point of why the games themselves are not canon. Non-canon stories exist as avenues for writers to exploit their creative freedom, offering alternative interpretations of the canon and/or questioning/parodying the nature of the canon. It is only because the BS games are not windows into the canon that we have already determined that they are not canon.

BS The Legend of Zelda does not make any real changes to the progression of the game it emulates (the only changes I can think of, besides the obvious inclusion of the BS mascot in place of Link, is the new graphical style and the somewhat edited world map). It makes an attempt to reconcile it with ALttP's story and environment- since ALttP had no real connection to LoZ, don't you find this the least bit interesting/relevant?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 January 2009 - 07:37 PM.

[Raien]

Okay, I can see that my current argument really doesn't apply to this particular context. The thing is I'm finding my argument difficult to explain because of the nature of the subject. To put it simply, I've been looking at various video game remakes and spin-offs with an intent to understand the development of the different Zelda games, and my impressions simply aren't matching with the approach taken by other theorists.

For this particular case, as well as ALttP GBA, I've realised that video game remakes are only as important as they are fundamentally different from the original stories. In any port/remake where the changes are insignificant to the point of needing close examination to find them, then there is a definite potential for the remake to be ignored (see Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes). Differences in presentation of the stories clearly don't count here, although a remake's presentation of gameplay may be a factor in determining its importance. In contrast, it takes an obvious addition or change to the original story to justify a remake actually replacing the original in its entirety (such as the addition of Lisa Trevor in the Resident Evil remake).

We've been debating the timeline on the basis that every Zelda remake has (potentially) replaced the original content, yet none of them have made significant change or additions to their respective stories and none of them have been subsequently emphasised by the Zelda staff. Comparing this general observation with our knowledge about Zelda timeline development, there just isn't any justification for this strain of theory. I don't think BS Zelda is going to represent a change to the timeline or the mythology for that reason; inothing indicates that it was meant to change anything.

With the understanding that BS Zelda doesn't change the timeline, yeah, the connection between ALttP and LoZ could be interesting.

Edited by Raien, 14 January 2009 - 08:18 AM.

[Evilsbane]

The way I see it, the fact that these games are presented as illusions induced by the fortuneteller and the fact that a japanese schoolkid with a baseball cap is the main character tells me that these games don't ACTUALLY take place. They're more like the Millennium World in Yu-Gi-Oh whereby Yami Yugi re-lives the events of the past without his actions in the 're-living' actually changing history.

However, in so far as the games contain aspects of Hyrule that have previously not been seen, I consider them fairly reliable sources of new information. For example, at the end of KnS, the portal to the Dark World (the only one in the game) is at Spectacle Rock, and on the other side, the only landmark of note is Ganon's Tower. Now, given that in the original NES LoZ, a doorway in Spectacle Rock leads to Ganon's Lair, and in ALttP, a Dark World Portal at Spectacle Rock (the most prominent one in the game, with various circles of contoured ground and bushes drawing attention to it) leaves you at the foot of Ganon's Tower, I come to the conclusion that Ganon's Lair in LoZ is actually in the Dark World. Ganon in the NES's LoZ is never seen (nor ever mentioned to have been) outside of his lair, and to even enter the Lair you must first possess powerful magic in the form of the Triforce of Wisdom in order to break through the seal. Add to this the fact that these loading intros for LoZ BS show the Seal War having already taken place, and you start to see what I mean.

[Duke Serkol]

BS The Legend of Zelda does not make any real changes to the progression of the game it emulates (the only changes I can think of, besides the obvious inclusion of the BS mascot in place of Link, is the new graphical style and the somewhat edited world map).

And all that this substitution involves: such as the hero being prophesized to be brought to Hyrule by a Guiding Star and said Star granting special powers to the old man of the sword, so he can help the hero.
Oh and Ganon having his lair (+Zelda's cell) in the back of that old man's cave, seemingly unbeknownst to him.

We've been debating the timeline on the basis that every Zelda remake has (potentially) replaced the original content, yet none of them have made significant change or additions to their respective stories and none of them have been subsequently emphasised by the Zelda staff.

Except for when they made a game in which Ganon ends up trapped in the Four Sword, sequel to the game that originally introduced the sword and that came paired with a port/remake in which said sword is (somehow) in Ganon's possession within the Dark World where he has been sealed.

the fact that these games are presented as illusions induced by the fortuneteller

I thought I explained that there is little to no basis for that.

However, in so far as the games contain aspects of Hyrule that have previously not been seen, I consider them fairly reliable sources of new information.

I like that approach, but I'm afraid I don't agree with the rest of your post.

Ganon in the NES's LoZ is never seen (nor ever mentioned to have been) outside of his lair

Sorry but that is not so. According to the retranslation of the manual, Ganon led his minions when stealing the Triforce of Power.
Besides, like I just said... Ganon isn't in Death Mountain in BS Zelda.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 14 January 2009 - 09:10 AM.

[Raien]

Except for when they made a game in which Ganon ends up trapped in the Four Sword, sequel to the game that originally introduced the sword and that came paired with a port/remake in which said sword is (somehow) in Ganon's possession within the Dark World where he has been sealed.

Funny, I would have thought Ganon ending up trapped in the Dark World would have connected FSA to ALttP, not Ganon trapped in the Four Sword and additional seal, making travelling to the Dark World impossible.

It's like a man who is trapped in a car which has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and then he finds himself on the moon. It does not make sense!

Edited by Raien, 14 January 2009 - 09:23 AM.

[Evilsbane]

Ganon in the NES's LoZ is never seen (nor ever mentioned to have been) outside of his lair

Sorry but that is not so. According to the retranslation of the manual, Ganon led his minions when stealing the Triforce of Power.

Perhaps but that is rather vague. It could have been a 'soul split' dealie or anything. It might just mean he commanded his men to steal it, and directed their efforts from his Lair. Can I see this retranslation?

Besides, like I just said... Ganon isn't in Death Mountain in BS Zelda.

Exactly. If his lair can be accessed from two vastly different locations, what does that tell you?

[Raien]

Soul-splitting is not a magical "get out of argument" clause. The only occasions involving soul-splitting is where the characters have specifically said to have done so (ALttP's Agahnim and PH's Ocean King and Ciela).

[Evilsbane]

Soul-splitting is not a magical "get out of argument" clause. The only occasions involving soul-splitting is where the characters have specifically said to have done so (ALttP's Agahnim and PH's Ocean King and Ciela).

I merely used that as an example of the many ways he could 'lead' his minions without leaving his lair. He does possess powerful magic, after all. I gave another one immediately afterwards, if you'll notice. Oh, and you forgot that Ganondorf MUST have used a soul split in TWW to be able to stand in the Forsaken Fortress while still technically sealed by the Master Sword.

Edited by Evilsbane, 14 January 2009 - 09:38 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The way I see it, the fact that these games are presented as illusions induced by the fortuneteller and the fact that a japanese schoolkid with a baseball cap is the main character tells me that these games don't ACTUALLY take place. They're more like the Millennium World in Yu-Gi-Oh whereby Yami Yugi re-lives the events of the past without his actions in the 're-living' actually changing history.

This would apply for the BS Legend of Zelda, but Stone Tablets has the same character actually being transported to Hyrule, the first BS game, the illusionary one, being a sort of training sequence, apparently.

Funny, I would have thought Ganon ending up trapped in the Dark World would have connected FSA to ALttP, not Ganon trapped in the Four Sword and additional seal, making travelling to the Dark World impossible.

It's like a man who is trapped in a car which has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and then he finds himself on the moon. It does not make sense!

....What? So if you suck some asshole into a sword, and chain it up with a kekai, and make sure the thing can't get out, and the person inside DOESN'T wind up in a totally different alternate dimension which the Four Sword has no connection with, then it's like a drowning car guy finding himself on the moon? Wouldn't that comparison be more accurate if he DID get sucked into the Dark World?

Oh, and you forgot that Ganondorf MUST have used a soul split in TWW to be able to stand in the Forsaken Fortress while still technically sealed by the Master Sword.

Actually, the word that got translated into his "power" was "Maozu", which basically translates to monster army. Ganondorf himself was able to escape the seal, but all of his followers, monsters, soldiers, and magical servants were still sealed away, making him some wizard relying on scrappy pirates to do his work for him.

[Raien]

....What? So if you suck some asshole into a sword, and chain it up with a kekai, and make sure the thing can't get out, and the person inside DOESN'T wind up in a totally different alternate dimension which the Four Sword has no connection with, then it's like a drowning car guy finding himself on the moon? Wouldn't that comparison be more accurate if he DID get sucked into the Dark World?

My comparison was with Duke Serkol's argument, not my own.

[Evilsbane]

The way I see it, the fact that these games are presented as illusions induced by the fortuneteller and the fact that a japanese schoolkid with a baseball cap is the main character tells me that these games don't ACTUALLY take place. They're more like the Millennium World in Yu-Gi-Oh whereby Yami Yugi re-lives the events of the past without his actions in the 're-living' actually changing history.

This would apply for the BS Legend of Zelda, but Stone Tablets has the same character actually being transported to Hyrule, the first BS game, the illusionary one, being a sort of training sequence, apparently.

Oh, and you forgot that Ganondorf MUST have used a soul split in TWW to be able to stand in the Forsaken Fortress while still technically sealed by the Master Sword.

Actually, the word that got translated into his "power" was "Maozu", which basically translates to monster army. Ganondorf himself was able to escape the seal, but all of his followers, monsters, soldiers, and magical servants were still sealed away, making him some wizard relying on scrappy pirates to do his work for him.

1- I see. Still don't think it's canon, though
2- That's a fairly large discrepancy in translation. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I'm still not convinced that Ganon physically left his lair in LoZ's backstory

[MikePetersSucks]

1- Tough luck, Nintendo apparently does.
2- It's not, really, since an army is literally a warlord's power, and the blessing of the Triforce of Power was apparently always generally the ability to rule over others. It's what I personally assumed even without the Japanese script.

[Duke Serkol]

I would have thought Ganon ending up trapped in the Dark World would have connected FSA to ALttP, not Ganon trapped in the Four Sword and additional seal, making travelling to the Dark World impossible.

It's like a man who is trapped in a car which has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and then he finds himself on the moon. It does not make sense!

Ah. but what if we have:
Stuck seatbelt = Four Sword
Crushed car door = Maidens Seal
Bottom of tyhe sea = Dark World?
In other words, couldn't the sword have been thrown into the Dark World before he got out (which he then did)?
That woud explain both what became of him after FSA and why the (now "shattered") sword was in his possession in ALttP GBA.

Can I see this retranslation?

Sure thing, it's on Zelda Legends.

This would apply for the BS Legend of Zelda, but Stone Tablets has the same character actually being transported to Hyrule, the first BS game, the illusionary one, being a sort of training sequence, apparently.

This notion doesn't... ah forget it, I'm not repeating myself again >_<

[Raien]

Sorry, Duke Serkol, but the presence of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA does not circumvent the fact that Ganon had no means of reaching the Dark World from his seal at the end of FSA. Furthermore, the only official word is that the bonus dungeon is non canon and the FSA staff have indicated that ALttP references were included for fun and nostalgia, as were the TWW references.

Your argument reminds me of the TWW > ALttP connection; people finding lots of little debatable connections to circumvent one massive contradiction.

Edited by Raien, 14 January 2009 - 09:03 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

the presence of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA does not circumvent the fact that Ganon had no means of reaching the Dark World from his seal at the end of FSA.

Yes, he most certainly didn't. I'm saying he may have been thrown in there, sword and all.

the only official word is that the bonus dungeon is non canon

Can you give me more details on that? I don't recall any official statements in that sense (or the opposite, naturally) and this greatly interests me.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Ganon isn't in Death Mountain in BS Zelda.

Is that so? Where is said cave?

Sorry, Duke Serkol, but the presence of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA does not circumvent the fact that Ganon had no means of reaching the Dark World from his seal at the end of FSA. Furthermore, the only official word is that the bonus dungeon is non canon and the FSA staff have indicated that ALttP references were included for fun and nostalgia, as were the TWW references.

1) I disagree that Ganon had no means of reaching the Dark World, for reasons already stated. If the official artwork of the Dark World seal is only a visual representation, the FSA maidens' seal could just as well be.
2) Quote for bonus dungeon being non-canon?
3) Isn't the timeline for nostalgia?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 14 January 2009 - 10:43 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

This notion doesn't... ah forget it, I'm not repeating myself again >_<

I said "apparently", as it's really pretty goddamned obvious, what with a lack of an explanation.

As for the idea that the player is "experiencing a temporary, dreamlike world weaved by a fortune teller"... there are some things that could be taken as indications of that. Both games start in a fortune teller's hut (though BS LoZ's has some of Ganon's minions hiding behind a curtain until the player departs... I dunno why. Maybe the fortune teller is sending Ganon someone who can gather the Triforce for him?) and in BS LoZ the old man doesn't say, when time is almost up, that you will soon leave that world, rather that it soon will disappear/vanish. Which IS kinda weird.
I didn't really see anything indicating that the first game only serves as training, though.

All of this pretty much supports that the entire world is an illusion, but it's important that you save it ANYWAY. Then in the next game, the same character is thrown into the real Hyrule. Either the illusionary world was some sort of training or vision of things to come or some sort of similar meaning, or the fortune teller was just doing it for the lulz.

[Showsni]

All of this pretty much supports that the entire world is an illusion, but it's important that you save it ANYWAY. Then in the next game, the same character is thrown into the real Hyrule. Either the illusionary world was some sort of training or vision of things to come or some sort of similar meaning, or the fortune teller was just doing it for the lulz.

Or remakes and the originals don't both occur as seperate events.

[MikePetersSucks]

My statements don't really reflect one way or another on the issue, Showsni.

[Duke Serkol]

Is that so? Where is said cave?

On the first screen (way south on tyhe map), in the back of the room where you are initially given the first sword.

I said "apparently"

That you did, yes... I just don't see much to back that idea up other than that weird line about the world disappearing, which could just have been poorly formulated.

what with a lack of an explanation.

I don't see any more nor less elaborate explanation for either of the two games. In both the starring character enters a Fortune Teller's hut and find themselves in Hyrule, to undertake a prphesized quest.

Both games start in a fortune teller's hut (though BS LoZ's has some of Ganon's minions hiding behind a curtain until the player departs

If anything, the fact that the first Fortune Teller has monsters hidihng behind a curtain makes me suspicious of his motives. He doesn't seem entirely trustworthy. What do you make of that?

[Evilsbane]

Can I see this retranslation?

Sure thing, it's on Zelda Legends.

Hmm, it says he led an army corps into Hyrule and snatched the ToP. Sounds oddly like OoT. It certainly suggests Ganon was physically there, although I still contend the Lair is in the Dark World. He did, after all, lead the army corps 'into' Hyrule, which means it came from somewhere else. And it has been stated many times that his evil army comes from his demon world or whatever the japanese word for that was. Odd that he could freely come and go, however. Which is why TWW is interesting too; how exactly does Ganon keep breaking through these seals as if they were nothing? Did the pirates at Forsaken Fortress intentionally free him? Do people like Koume and Kotake keep reviving him?

[Raien]

Can you give me more details on that? I don't recall any official statements in that sense (or the opposite, naturally) and this greatly interests me.

I'm afraid I don't keep a log of interviews, but this particular case was an interview with the director of TMC, who developed ALttP/FS. He said that there had never been any intention to connect the Four Swords games with the mainstream Zelda games. Thus, the bonus dungeon was clarified to be nothing more than extra content for the player's enjoyment (although that should have been obvious enough considering almost all bonus dungeons exist singularly for added gameplay).

I disagree that Ganon had no means of reaching the Dark World, for reasons already stated. If the official artwork of the Dark World seal is only a visual representation, the FSA maidens' seal could just as well be.

It could be, but it isn't. Just like "sealed away from the world" could be interpreted literally, but it isn't literal. Context allows us to determine the correct possibility from all the other random possibilities.

We can determine that the Maidens did not seal Ganon in the Dark World for two reasons:
1) FSA's introduction establishes that the Four Sword's seal can be broken by removing the sword, thus the added shield relates to that specific context. The pyramid prevents someone from releasing Ganon just as Link had released Vaati.
2) It doesn't make sense for the Maidens to seal Ganon in the Dark World. All conventional narratives run on the basis of logical cause-and-effect explained in the source material, not the basis of "let's make up stuff to connect these games".

[MikePetersSucks]

If anything, the fact that the first Fortune Teller has monsters hidihng behind a curtain makes me suspicious of his motives. He doesn't seem entirely trustworthy. What do you make of that?

I always figured that the dungeon boss monsters, and perhaps their minions, in the first two Zelda games were benevolent or atleast neutral guardians, perhaps the same here. They could be tamed monsters the Oracle trained for vis own protection. Or maybe captured ones that leaked over between worlds. Who the hell knows? Even if the Oracle was evil, what evil incentive is there to send some random asshole kid to an illusionary world where, if they succeed, they'll go on to save Hyrule as prophecized, and if they fail, they just go back home like nothing happened, wherein the prophecy will kick in anyway?

The only thing the illusionary world offers is experience for the Hero of Light.

[Lexxi Aileron]

He said that there had never been any intention to connect the Four Swords games with the mainstream Zelda games.

Luckily no one's arguing that Capcom intended FS to connect to the main series, but that Nintendo EAD intended FSA to connect to the main series and did so in such a way that exploited the Palace of the FS. The fact that FSA features Ganon at all more or less confirms that Capcom's original intent to keep the FS as a side-series has been overstepped.

1) FSA's introduction establishes that the Four Sword's seal can be broken by removing the sword, thus the added shield relates to that specific context. The pyramid prevents someone from releasing Ganon just as Link had released Vaati.
2) It doesn't make sense for the Maidens to seal Ganon in the Dark World. All conventional narratives run on the basis of logical cause-and-effect explained in the source material, not the basis of "let's make up stuff to connect these games".

1) True, but I'm arguing something about the nature of the pyramid based on the nature of other such pyramids in the past.
2) It never made sense for anyone to seal Ganon in the Dark World, since it was a world where he has power.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 15 January 2009 - 02:45 PM.

[Raien]

Luckily no one's arguing that Capcom intended FS to connect to the main series, but that Nintendo EAD intended FSA to connect to the main series and did so in such a way that exploited the Palace of the FS. The fact that FSA features Ganon at all more or less confirms that Capcom's original intent to keep the FS as a side-series has been overstepped.

Nintendo EAD have never uttered on suggestion that they intended FSA to chronologically connect to the main series, and the appearance of Ganon is not itself proof that FSA connects to the main series (for the same reason that the appearance of Link and Zelda did not connect the original FS to the mainstream series).

In order to determine that there is a narrative progression from one game to another, we need to see evidence of that progression (i.e. cause and effect). Given that FSA's ending made it impossible for Ganon to reach the Sacred Realm, there is no narrative progression; just a gaping contradiction between the two events. With that contradiction established, all you have to connect the two events are a scattering of phrases and visual parallels, to which all the connections are very debatable, and hence they have all been debated to the point where I've fucking had enough debating them.

2) It never made sense for anyone to seal Ganon in the Dark World, since it was a world where he has power.

In other games, the Sacred Realm was creating monsters as a reflection of Ganon's wish on the Triforce, and thus the Sacred Realm had to be sealed along with Ganon. In FSA, the Sacred Realm had no part to play in Ganon's dark power; hence there is no fucking point in sending him there.

Edited by Raien, 15 January 2009 - 04:51 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

this particular case was an interview with the director of TMC, who developed ALttP/FS.

Oh that, yes I remember now.
But like Lexxi said:

no one's arguing that Capcom intended FS to connect to the main series, but that Nintendo EAD intended FSA to connect to the main series and did so in such a way that exploited the Palace of the FS.
The fact that FSA features Ganon at all more or less confirms that Capcom's original intent to keep the FS as a side-series has been overstepped.

He totally beat me to that reply, guess i need to drop by more often *lol*

I always figured that the dungeon boss monsters, and perhaps their minions, in the first two Zelda games were benevolent or atleast neutral guardians, perhaps the same here. They could be tamed monsters the Oracle trained for vis own protection.

Good argument, but the fact that the Fortune Teller has the monsters hide behind a curtain and come out the moment the starring character is unable to see them, clearly indicates a measure of malice... and it's not like the monsters are making him do things against his will since he breaks into laughter.
And strangely, the dungeons are referred to as the "Demon King's"... so none of this really makes much sense >_<
Unless he's conquered them all but for the room behind the bosses, who could be neutral guardians as you suggest. That is what I like to believe at least.

Even if the Oracle was evil, what evil incentive is there to send some random asshole kid to an illusionary world where, if they succeed, they'll go on to save Hyrule as prophecized, and if they fail, they just go back home like nothing happened, wherein the prophecy will kick in anyway?

The only thing the illusionary world offers is experience for the Hero of Light.

That is if we assume it is illusionary, which I don't.
I suspect Ganon wanted for the hero to collect the Triforce for him, confident that he would then be able to defeat the kid and take it. Wouldn't be the first time Ganon allows the hero to do stuff because he's overconfident.

[Raien]

Nvm, I'm tired of arguing this.

Edited by Raien, 16 January 2009 - 06:59 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Nintendo EAD have never uttered on suggestion that they intended FSA to chronologically connect to the main series

It gives a history and backstory for several background elements of the series (trident, Desert Palace, maidens, etc.), and much of the history has reappeared in future titles (dark tribe sealed in a mirror), whereas the Capcom games, for example, usually made a point to establish its own elements, so if they're not trying to connect the game to the main series they're being awfully secretive about it.

Given that FSA's ending made it impossible for Ganon to reach the Sacred Realm

It's not given; not anymore given than TP making it impossible for Ganon to reach the Sacred Realm or the Triforce to have been united under his control.

In other games, the Sacred Realm was creating monsters as a reflection of Ganon's wish on the Triforce, and thus the Sacred Realm had to be sealed along with Ganon. In FSA, the Sacred Realm had no part to play in Ganon's dark power; hence there is no fucking point in sending him there.

Why not seal Ganon in the Dark World in FSA, then?