76 replies to this topic

[wring]

The pig form need not cease to exist without the Triforce, as we have seen.

Really? Name one such instance where Ganondorf gained his pig form from the Triforce, lost it, but kept his pig state.

Didn't that happen in Adventures of Link. He lost his Triforce of Power, but was still drawn as a pig on the game over screen. And I think there was art of him as a dead pig.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Really? Name one such instance where Ganondorf gained his pig form from the Triforce, lost it, but kept his pig state.

There is no instance where Ganondorf explicitly gained his pig form from the Triforce that we know of, nor has there ever been an instant where pig Ganon has lost the Triforce (except AoL, where he is still a pig), but there have been instances in which the pig form has existed without the Triforce (OoX, FSA).

What's the difference between a spirit and a mind?

Spirit = sentience.
Mind = intelligence.

Animals are sentient, but not intelligent as we understand it.

Yes. That's exactly it. That's how it usually goes down.

But it also happens that objects are used as vessels in summoning ceremonies, you must admit.

[MikePetersSucks]

Didn't that happen in Adventures of Link. He lost his Triforce of Power, but was still drawn as a pig on the game over screen. And I think there was art of him as a dead pig.

Actually, he turns to ashes, and he's never revived anyway, so it's moot (especially since his revival means he would seize the Triforces again. Not that it matters, since we can't say for sure if LoZ Ganon got his form from the Triforce of Power or not.

There is no instance where Ganondorf explicitly gained his pig form from the Triforce that we know of, nor has there ever been an instant where pig Ganon has lost the Triforce (except AoL, where he is still a pig), but there have been instances in which the pig form has existed without the Triforce (OoX, FSA).

Yea, and both of those were created with outside magic that aren't necessarily Triforce-related.

Spirit = sentience.
Mind = intelligence.

Animals are sentient, but not intelligent as we understand it.

The animals in Zelda disagree.

But it also happens that objects are used as vessels in summoning ceremonies, you must admit.

Actually, no, it only happens to humanoid vessels, which is why they're preferred, but harder to use. In most cases, an object, such as a weapon, is usually a temporary storage space for the soul and/or spirit until a better vessel is prepared, or it might even be used as a cage in of itself, similar to the Four Sword.

[Lexxi Aileron]

In most cases, an object, such as a weapon, is usually a temporary storage space for the soul and/or spirit until a better vessel is prepared

Does demon-possession via object occur in Japanese mythology? (i.e., for argument's sake, if the trident possessed Ganon's spirit, if Ganondorf took it, would Ganon possess Ganondorf?)

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, it does, but not in the form that grabbing the object would possess you. Possessed objects, in mythology, are usually just douches who try and hurt and/or curse whoever is around them and so forth, with cases of bodily possession being possible, but not very common.

Besides, there's still no reason to think that Ganon and Ganondorf are two separate entities, which to me is still a silly assertion.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Besides, there's still no reason to think that Ganon and Ganondorf are two separate entities, which to me is still a silly assertion.

I suppose it doesn't make sense to me that a human and a demon (a literal one, anyhow) could possibly be the same entity. I have always understood Ganon to be a demon born of Ganondorf's hatred. I don't know how well this lines up with Japanese lore, but it's been my impression since I played OoT and was only reinforced when I saw that Ganon was "born" when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in the IW.

[Raien]

I've always understood that despite taking a human form, Ganondorf was a demon in Adult OoT, TP and TWW. The beast form in those games was just one transformation to fight Link with.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I'm admittedly coming from a Judeo-Christian view of the relationship between spiritual and corporal beings.

Human beings derive their divinity from the influence of the spirit of the Divine and their demonic attributes from the influence of evil spirits. Through their wills they can incorporate attributes of either or sometimes both in various aspects of their lives. When acting in full accord with the Divine human beings can literally said to be Christ to the world; human beings can similarly be possessed by evil spirits.

In the same way, I believe that Ganondorf's evil nature came from the influence of evil spirits/an evil spirit and the demon is a manifestation of this evil (the spirit made incarnate).

I don't know if, since the game has many elements that appeal to Western mythology, this is an accurate interpretation. It makes sense to me, especially considering what we see (when viewed from my perspective) and considering the line that says that something new was "born" (Ganon).

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 09 November 2008 - 08:36 PM.

[Raien]

I think that, given the elaborate Eastern terminology in the Japanese script, anything that has a definition outside the specific Zelda universe (like "Courage") will be an Eastern definition.

As I understand it, there is a distinct separation between humans and spirits (whether good or evil) in Eastern mythology. Humans can become spirits, but not vice versa. The nature of a human-turned spirit depends on the nature of the transformation. Okami provided an interesting story about a woman who was obsessed with her beauty, so she poured her soul into her hand-mirror until it devoured her. The mirror became a spirit of ice, as her heart was cold to everyone.

Ganondorf the Human's transformation into Ganon the Demon King is based upon the magical reflection and enlargement of his evil heart in every game including, to some extent, FSA.

[MikePetersSucks]

I suppose it doesn't make sense to me that a human and a demon (a literal one, anyhow) could possibly be the same entity. I have always understood Ganon to be a demon born of Ganondorf's hatred. I don't know how well this lines up with Japanese lore, but it's been my impression since I played OoT and was only reinforced when I saw that Ganon was "born" when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in the IW.

In Japanese lore, being hateful and/or wicked enough is enough to transform an ordinary human being into a demon king in of itself.

I've always understood that despite taking a human form, Ganondorf was a demon in Adult OoT, TP and TWW. The beast form in those games was just one transformation to fight Link with.

Pretty much.

I'm admittedly coming from a Judeo-Christian view of the relationship between spiritual and corporal beings.

Human beings derive their divinity from the influence of the spirit of the Divine and their demonic attributes from the influence of evil spirits. Through their wills they can incorporate attributes of either or sometimes both in various aspects of their lives. When acting in full accord with the Divine human beings can literally said to be Christ to the world; human beings can similarly be possessed by evil spirits.

In the same way, I believe that Ganondorf's evil nature came from the influence of evil spirits/an evil spirit and the demon is a manifestation of this evil (the spirit made incarnate).

I don't know if, since the game has many elements that appeal to Western mythology, this is an accurate interpretation. It makes sense to me, especially considering what we see (when viewed from my perspective) and considering the line that says that something new was "born" (Ganon).

That seems to take away from Ganondorf's inherent villainy while throwing in faceless, baseless forces of evil for no real reason; it's more problematic than anything. In Japanese mythology, demons are not exactly spirits opposed to divinity as they are aggregations of negative emotion. A particularly malevolent ghost can be a demon, as can a ruthless warrior who's killed 1000 Youkai. Being a demon isn't exactly a "race", it's a status.

As I understand it, there is a distinct separation between humans and spirits (whether good or evil) in Eastern mythology. Humans can become spirits, but not vice versa. The nature of a human-turned spirit depends on the nature of the transformation. Okami provided an interesting story about a woman who was obsessed with her beauty, so she poured her soul into her hand-mirror until it devoured her. The mirror became a spirit of ice, as her heart was cold to everyone.

Spirits can become human as well, though it's a lot harder. You posted an excellent example though.

Ganondorf the Human's transformation into Ganon the Demon King is based upon the magical reflection and enlargement of his evil heart in every game including, to some extent, FSA.

Pretty much. It seems that Ganondorf's ascension to demonhood, while helped by external magic, was mostly caused by his greedy heart, hearkening way back to LTTP.

[Raien]

Spirits can become human as well, though it's a lot harder. You posted an excellent example though.

Okami was a good window into understanding the nature of Eastern mythology. Monotheism tends to categorise all magic under heaven and hell, which ultimately restricts the nature of magic to good or evil. By attributing magic to emotions and elements in nature, I get this sense of "anything's possible" so long as it is simple and, to some extent, symbolic. It also gives different writers the freedom to give their own unique slants on the mythology.

Pretty much. It seems that Ganondorf's ascension to demonhood, while helped by external magic, was mostly caused by his greedy heart, hearkening way back to LTTP.

The Trident's inscription was calling out to an evil heart to take the Trident, after all. It sounds very much like a desire on Ganondorf's part to wield the Trident was important in his transformation.

[MikePetersSucks]

Okami was a good window into understanding the nature of Eastern mythology. Monotheism tends to categorise all magic under heaven and hell, which ultimately restricts the nature of magic to good or evil. By attributing magic to emotions and elements in nature, I get this sense of "anything's possible" so long as it is simple and, to some extent, symbolic. It also gives different writers the freedom to give their own unique slants on the mythology.

Before you get carried away here, I'm going to explain that this is because emotions are/were thought to be a force in of themselves, like light, gravity, water, etc. that could change reality. This is partly because humans are basically the cousins of the gods, and not their creations, in Eastern myth. It's not meant to lean towards a symbolic fairy-tale reasoning so much.

The Trident's inscription was calling out to an evil heart to take the Trident, after all. It sounds very much like a desire on Ganondorf's part to wield the Trident was important in his transformation.

Indeed. The Tridents powers don't seem like they can work unless you want to use them of your own free will. The "call" seems to be an assisted beacon to those who would seek it anyway.

[wring]

I think he transformed because the writers wanted to be nostalgic. The game doesn't say why nor how he transformed, and it doesn't say if he was able to transform before, and it also doesn't say its a permanent transformation either.

[Raien]

Before you get carried away here, I'm going to explain that this is because emotions are/were thought to be a force in of themselves, like light, gravity, water, etc. that could change reality. This is partly because humans are basically the cousins of the gods, and not their creations, in Eastern myth. It's not meant to lean towards a symbolic fairy-tale reasoning so much.

That all makes sense. And for the record, I wasn't trying to put much emphasis on the symbolism, I'm just reminding everyone for the millionth time that there is an inherent connection.

[MikePetersSucks]

I think he transformed because the writers wanted to be nostalgic. The game doesn't say why nor how he transformed, and it doesn't say if he was able to transform before, and it also doesn't say its a permanent transformation either.

Oh come on.

That all makes sense. And for the record, I wasn't trying to put much emphasis on the symbolism, I'm just reminding everyone for the millionth time that there is an inherent connection.

Oh, I know. Symbolism is important, it just bothers the hell out of me when you take it to the total extreme.

[Raien]

Oh, I know. Symbolism is important, it just bothers the hell out of me when you take it to the total extreme.

Sometimes I refer to symbolism because it interests me personally rather than because it has an important impact on the storyline. I enjoy understanding the complex between good and evil even if most people are happy to view it as a simple contradiction. But to be fair, when I have used symbolism to decide conclusions on subjects like the balanced heart, I haven't seen much complaining on your part. The only time you've ever really taken offense to my symbolism philosophy is when I've opposed your belief that contemporary science is applicable to the Zelda mythology (which is not surprising, because my emphasis on symbolism derived from my opposition to that very understanding).

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, I wouldn't say that "contemporary science is applicable to the Zelda mythology", I was just using it as the most relatable example because, in my opinion, reducing everything to a symbolic sense of cause and effect is almost totally antithetical to Nayru's contributions to the world. But let's not get into an argument about that.