76 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganondorf stole the Trident of Darkness in FSA, which grants dark powers to it's holder. FSA Ganondorf has no other powers at his disposal. Connect the dots.

[Arturo]

MPS: FSA Ganon isn't mindless, no. FSA Ganondorf isn't, so why would his transformation be? This isn't like OoX where a body is being sacrificed to revive his.

It is inaccurate until it's demonstrated that the Trident is the source of his power in ALttP, which there's no indication in the game that it is. You just like inventing things from ALttP, biased by what happens in FSA: and if you are trying to take every game separately, you are supposed not to do it.

You could say that the Trident might be the source of his power, and then I wouldn't disagree, although I personally believe it to be false. But you cannot treat it as a canon fact, because that's just plain false.

I'm not saying it is the source of his power; the "source(s) of power" section lists all the things that are sources of his power that he uses in each game. The Trident happens to be the one we see in ALttP. His power could come from the Triforce just as well, but since he's using the Trident, it's safe to say that he's using its powers.

Then put the double swords as source of his power in OoT, TWW and TP.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Then put the double swords as source of his power in OoT, TWW and TP.

They've never been shown to be a source of his power, nor does modifying that section to read "weapons" really work.

Also, he uses only one sword in TP.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 28 October 2008 - 04:21 PM.

[wring]

Ganondorf stole the Trident of Darkness in FSA, which grants dark powers to it's holder. FSA Ganondorf has no other powers at his disposal. Connect the dots.

How do we know he couldn't already turn into Ganon?

[Arturo]

The Trident was just a weapon in ALttP.
The double swords were just a weapon in OoT.
The Trident was the source of his power in FSA.

Those are the canon facts, how you interpret them is your theory. But the Trident as a source of power outside FSA is just speculation.

[wring]

He obviously had some power outside of the Trident, to break inside the Pyramid and make it through the Desert of Doubt. I wouldn't say the Trident is the source to all of his power. It just makes him even more powerful then before.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The Trident is a source of power (as shown in FSA) and is present in ALttP (even though it does not have this express role).
The Triforce grants wishes when it is touched (as shown by ALttP) and is present in AoL (even though it does not have this express role).
The double swords in TWW are never a source of power, so I'm not noting them under the "sources of power" section, as it only includes sources of power.

I apologize that me pointing this out is too much for your nitpicky self.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 28 October 2008 - 04:35 PM.

[Arturo]

The Trident is a source of power (as shown in FSA) and is present in ALttP (even though it does not have this express role).

If it doesn't have this express role, then correct it in the initial post. It's not me being nitpicky, but just reading the Trident to be the only sure source of power of him in ALttP hurts me more than you can imagine.

[Lexxi Aileron]

If it doesn't have this express role, then correct it in the initial post.

The express role is irrelevant if I'm only listing the things that are sources of power that he has and/or uses...

Would you feel better if I broke it up like this:

Triforce: Yes/Triforce of Power/No
Weapon(s): Trident/Double Swords/etc.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 28 October 2008 - 04:42 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

How do we know he couldn't already turn into Ganon?

Because before he got the Trident he was "some desert nomad" not worth mentioning. That wouldn't be the case if he had the power to turn into a Demon King.

He obviously had some power outside of the Trident, to break inside the Pyramid and make it through the Desert of Doubt. I wouldn't say the Trident is the source to all of his power. It just makes him even more powerful then before.

He could've gotten through the same way the Links did: Solving puzzles, dodging traps, and kicking ass. No super sorcerer magic needs to be involved.

Also, there's no proof it's even the same Trident. Quit ass-pulling.

[Lexxi Aileron]

There's no proof that it's the same Master Sword in OoT & TWW, either.

Just sayin'.

[Raien]

There's no proof that it's the same Master Sword in OoT & TWW, either.

The "Master Sword" title is established in both games, and its function as the "blade of evil's bane" is established as the same in both games. The trident has no title to connect it in either FSA or ALttP, and the function as a "mighty weapon" that can banish light is not established in ALttP. In short, the connection is yet another visual parallel.

As for what sources Ganon's power in ALttP, repeated references to the Dark World are made in establishing the building of Ganon's power. When you consider that Ganon's identity as the Demon King is defined by his possession of the Dark/Demon World, it makes sense that through the creation and strengthening of the Dark World, Ganon's own Demon King power was created and strengthened. This is how the Triforce allowed Ganondorf to fulfil his wish.

Edited by Raian, 28 October 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

There's no proof that it's the same Master Sword in OoT & TWW, either.

Yea, except the exact opposite of that is true.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The "Master Sword" title is established in both games, and its function as the "blade of evil's bane" is established as the same in both games. The trident has no title to connect it in either FSA or ALttP, and the function as a "mighty weapon" that can banish light is not established in ALttP. In short, the connection is yet another visual parallel.

Actually, the function as the blade of evil's bane differs between the two games. In OoT the sword did not have near the same extent of the abilities the TWW sword did. Or rather these abilities were not shown. Thus, again, the differences being raised are pointless nitpicking, as if they were applied in other cases there'd be no such thing as concepts/items/etc. being carried over from other games.

[MikePetersSucks]

In OoT the sword did not have near the same extent of the abilities the TWW sword did.

Evil's Bane is Evil's Bane, dude.

Thus, again, the differences being raised are pointless nitpicking, as if they were applied in other cases there'd be no such thing as concepts/items/etc. being carried over from other games.

Bullshit, that's a copout. You can't defend your exertion of comparing a significant plot element to some random, nothing-special Trident with the fallacy of "if not this then what does count?"

[wring]

I think the creators were just being nostalgic when they gave Ganon a Trident.

[Raien]

In OoT the sword did not have near the same extent of the abilities the TWW sword did. Or rather these abilities were not shown.

What abilities were not shown?

Kills demons. Check.
Deflects evil magic. Check.

[Lexxi Aileron]

What abilities were not shown?

Kills demons. Check.
Deflects evil magic. Check.

Breaks evil barriers?
Seals monsters away?
Requires prayers of sages to operate?

[Raien]

MPS's argument still applies. You cannot claim that details vital to the identity of an item are equivalent to one-off functions that cannot be used to identify the item on a constant basis. The Master Sword was not the only item to break evil barriers or seal monsters away, and thus those abilities cannot be recognised as unique or significant to the Master Sword. Likewise, there are many weapons that possess dark magic, so that trait cannot be recognised as a unique and identifiable part of the Trident's identity.

What makes FSA's Trident unique and significant is its power to banish Light and to transform Ganondorf into the Demon King, neither of which are identified by Ganon's Trident in ALttP. There is no more evidence that the FSA and ALttP Tridents are the same than there is to argue that the White Swords in TMC and LoZ are the same.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Can you come up with a reason why they should be considered different, or are you only going to point out that the trident(s) was/were never given significance in any other game before FSA? Because as far as I know that's a weak argument in series with ongoing continuities; they can choose to give things more or less significance as time goes on. I do not exempt the White Sword from this rule; however, given the history of the White Sword as described in TMC, it seems unlikely that the two are the same (it is given the name in TMC when it is reforged and later becomes the Four Sword, leaving no room for LoZ/OoX). The Trident is a different case as something that has no concrete origins is given significance in one place that happens to line up with another event that suggests a similar significance.

i.e., Ganon's soul is revived in OoX and placed in a vessel, and later a vessel is released that results in Ganon again being revived.

[Raien]

Can you come up with a reason why they should be considered different, or are you only going to point out that the trident(s) was/were never given significance in any other game before FSA?

It is not my burden to establish the difference until you can provide significant evidence to ground the connection in the first place. ALttP's Trident can only possess significance if it is significantly related to FSA's Trident, but you have yet to provide any evidence to establish a significant relation between them. You must jump one hurdle before you reach the other, and I don't see the grounds for which you can jump that first hurdle.

Edited by Raian, 30 October 2008 - 09:31 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Breaks evil barriers?
Seals monsters away?
Requires prayers of sages to operate?

The first two are part of the Power of Evil's Bane. The third, for all we know, was always in operation, but since no one fucked with the praying Sages before, it never had to be a plot-point.

i.e., Ganon's soul is revived in OoX and placed in a vessel

Yea, except the dialog pretty much says that's exactly what DIDN'T HAPPEN.

But yea, the burden of proof is on you, Lexxi. Since it's already been established that Zelda reuses shit without needing to be correlated, it's your responsibility to prove your positive claim.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The first two are part of the Power of Evil's Bane. The third, for all we know, was always in operation, but since no one fucked with the praying Sages before, it never had to be a plot-point.

Precisely. Therefore the same argument applies to the significance of the Trident as described in FSA. It was always the weapon used by demon Ganon in the 2D games, but only FSA showed him obtaining it.

Yea, except the dialog pretty much says that's exactly what DIDN'T HAPPEN.

The dialogue explicitly says that a yorishiro, a vessel, was used.

ALttP's Trident can only possess significance if it is significantly related to FSA's Trident, but you have yet to provide any evidence to establish a significant relation between them.

Again, "daimaou" Ganon's spirit was called into a vessel in OoX. Daimaou Ganon appeared in LoZ, so it's not referring to ALttP Ganon. Ganon declares himself the "yami no maou," the same title he uses in FSA and ALttP. FSA shows Ganondorf taking a vessel and becoming "yami no maou" Ganon.

A likely scenario is that the vessel in FSA is the vessel in OoX, and OoX is the origin of both the Trident as a vessel and of the "yami no maou" identity of Ganon. It does not prove that they are the same Trident between FSA and ALttP, but whether they are the same Trident is immaterial to ALttP. Nevertheless, in all games in which Ganon is "yami no maou" he wields a Trident, similar to how every legendary hero wields the Master Sword. Disprove this scenario, else provide a more convincing alternative.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 31 October 2008 - 11:53 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Precisely. Therefore the same argument applies to the significance of the Trident as described in FSA. It was always the weapon used by demon Ganon in the 2D games, but only FSA showed him obtaining it.

The problem, however, is that one would have to explain where the LTTP Trident would come fromand when he had a chance to obtain it. He turned into Pig Ganon when he touched the Triforce, so he can't of had it on him, and if he created it as part of his wish, it's not the same Trident right then and there.

The dialogue explicitly says that a yorishiro, a vessel, was used.

Yea, but no soul was successfully summoned, so the yorishiro was fueled entirely by nikushimi if anything.

Again, "daimaou" Ganon's spirit was called into a vessel in OoX.

No it wasn't. It's even said outright that the ritual was botched without Zelda's sacrifice, and the Ganon we see is an incomplete, insentient beast. The body and power of Ganon were revived, but not his soul. It's effectively undead.

A likely scenario is that the vessel in FSA is the vessel in OoX, and OoX is the origin of both the Trident as a vessel and of the "yami no maou" identity of Ganon. It does not prove that they are the same Trident between FSA and ALttP, but whether they are the same Trident is immaterial to ALttP. Nevertheless, in all games in which Ganon is "yami no maou" he wields a Trident, similar to how every legendary hero wields the Master Sword. Disprove this scenario, else provide a more convincing alternative.

How about you do prove it? The games don't suggest even remotely similar to "A soul was successfully summoned, then the very anthropomorphic Ganon vessel turned into a Trident for the lulz."

We see a vessel created incompletely. Link makes it go a splode. Fin. That's exactly what the game's visuals and dialog suggest happen. The Legend of Zelda's cervix isn't THAT flexible, I would like for you to quit raping it to make your unfounded theories work.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The problem, however, is that one would have to explain where the LTTP Trident would come fromand when he had a chance to obtain it. He turned into Pig Ganon when he touched the Triforce, so he can't of had it on him, and if he created it as part of his wish, it's not the same Trident right then and there.

Why is there a problem? He doesn't die in FSA.

Yea, but no soul was successfully summoned, so the yorishiro was fueled entirely by nikushimi if anything.

This isn't clarified. His "mind" is not summoned, according to OoX. A Ganon "without intelligence." Apparently at least something of him was revived, the evil bloodthirsty part.

We see a vessel created incompletely.

The game doesn't specify what object serves as the vessel. The conclusion here is made based on another object being identified as a vessel in another title.

[MikePetersSucks]

Why is there a problem? He doesn't die in FSA.

Yea, but LTTP Ganon(dorf) becomes a demon upon touching the Triforce. He lacked such power beforehand, since he was a thief traveling with a band of likeminded individuals.

This isn't clarified. His "mind" is not summoned, according to OoX. A Ganon "without intelligence." Apparently at least something of him was revived, the evil bloodthirsty part.

The mind is pretty obviously correlated with the soul; and it's probably innate to the body to be evil and bloodthirsty. Yorishiro take on base aspects of the soul they're intended to take. A more modern, Sci-Fi example would be robots intended to hold the personality of someone that's trying to be revived, as a place-holder until an actual brain-upload is placed inside.

The game doesn't specify what object serves as the vessel. The conclusion here is made based on another object being identified as a vessel in another title.

A body needed to be sacrificed so that Ganon could have one. Zelda was the intended Yorishiro.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Yea, but LTTP Ganon(dorf) becomes a demon upon touching the Triforce.

This is not specified, unless you consider ALttP Ganon to be the IW Ganon (and not OoT Ganon), which you obviously do.

The mind is pretty obviously correlated with the soul; and it's probably innate to the body to be evil and bloodthirsty. Yorishiro take on base aspects of the soul they're intended to take.

Exactly; which is why I take the mindless, raging bloodthirst that seems to be associated with the trident in FSA, based on the trident inscription, to be a reference to the "mindless raging" Ganon who was revived in OoX. Obviously you disagree.

A body needed to be sacrificed so that Ganon could have one. Zelda was the intended Yorishiro.

Possibly. I don't see why the object must be necessarily excluded for consideration when it was not specified that Zelda was the yorishiro...

[MikePetersSucks]

This is not specified, unless you consider ALttP Ganon to be the IW Ganon (and not OoT Ganon), which you obviously do.

OOT Ganon or not, the pig form exists because of the Triforce, not outside magic.

Exactly; which is why I take the mindless, raging bloodthirst that seems to be associated with the trident in FSA, based on the trident inscription, to be a reference to the "mindless raging" Ganon who was revived in OoX. Obviously you disagree.

How can a soulless being be the Spirit of the Trident? Besides, FSA Ganon isn't mindless, bloodthirsty, or raging. He very cooly and calmly seemed to plan out most of the strife in FSA in order to amass more power.

Possibly. I don't see why the object must be necessarily excluded for consideration when it was not specified that Zelda was the yorishiro...

But it WAS! Her body was the intended sacrifice so that Ganon's body could be created, serving as the Yorishiro. I know you habitually rape context, but come on.

[Lexxi Aileron]

OOT Ganon or not, the pig form exists because of the Triforce, not outside magic.

The pig form need not cease to exist without the Triforce, as we have seen.

How can a soulless being be the Spirit of the Trident?

The spirit was revived in OoX, just without a mind. FSA Ganondorf would have supplied the mindpower in FSA.

But it WAS! Her body was the intended sacrifice so that Ganon's body could be created, serving as the Yorishiro. I know you habitually rape context, but come on.

"Sacrifice" = "vessel"?

Is this what you are saying? The context I am using is that in a single sentence Zelda is referred to as the "holy sacrifice" which when sacrificed will call the soul into the yorishiro. If Zelda was intended to be the yorishiro there is a verbal confusion.

[MikePetersSucks]

The pig form need not cease to exist without the Triforce, as we have seen.

Really? Name one such instance where Ganondorf gained his pig form from the Triforce, lost it, but kept his pig state.

The spirit was revived in OoX, just without a mind. FSA Ganondorf would have supplied the mindpower in FSA.

What's the difference between a spirit and a mind?

"Sacrifice" = "vessel"?

Yes. That's exactly it. That's how it usually goes down.