76 replies to this topic

[Lexxi Aileron]

After the recent surge of interest in translations of Japanese source texts for our favorite video game series, we've learned a few things about Ganon. I think if we put this knowledge to good work we can turn out patterns that will help us trace the history of Ganon throughout the timeline. This theory traces the various known forms of Ganon through the timeline and attempts to decipher the pattern of his appearances.

LoZ Ganon
Title: Daimaou (Big Demon King)
Form: Blue Demon Beast
Source(s) of Power: Triforce of Power, [Trident?]
Origin: According to the original SNES ALttP manual, Ganon (identified as referring also to LoZ Ganon by translators by his description) was "born" when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in the Imprisoning War
Killed: By the Silver Arrows

ALttP Ganon
Title: Yami no Maou (Demon King of Darkness)
Form: Blue Demon Beast
Source(s) of Power: [Triforce?], Trident
Origin: Ganondorf the thief/Ganon the King of Evil "rediscovered the Sacred Realm" and transformed it into a cursed Makai (Dark World), but was unable to return to the Light World to conquer it as well
Killed: By the Silver Arrows

OoT Ganon
Title: Daimaou (Big Demon King)
Form: Human (Gerudo), transforms into demon beast with the Triforce of Power
Source(s) of Power: Triforce of Power
Origin: Ganondorf the thief touches the Triforce when he enters the Sacred Realm and becomes the Daimaou (same as LoZ Ganon?)
Killed: Sealed, not killed

OoX Ganon
Title: Daimaou (Big Demon King); [self-proclaimed] Yami no Maou (Demon King of Darkness)
Form: Blue Demon Beast
Source(s) of Power: Trident
Origin: Twinrova sacrifices their body and calls the "Daimaou Ganon" (same as OoT/TWW/LoZ Ganon?) spirit into the yorishiro ("vessel": Trident?)
Killed: By a sword (Master Sword?)

TWW Ganon
Title: Daimaou (Big Demon King)
Form: Human (Gerudo)
Source(s) of Power: Triforce of Power
Origin: (Same as OoT Ganon)
Killed: By the Master Sword

FSA Ganon
Title: Yami no [Ma]ou ([Demon] King of Darkness), "Demon Beast" (refers to transformation of Ganondorf)
Form: Blue Demon Beast
Source(s) of Power: Trident
Origin: Ganondorf claims the demon's tool/vessel (Trident) and becomes the King of Darkness (same as OoX Ganon?)
Killed: Sealed, not killed

TP Ganon
Title: "Demon Thief," "Demon Beast" (same as FSA, refers to transformation of Ganondorf)
Form: Human (Gerudo), transforms into demon beast
Source(s) of Power: Triforce of Power, [Zant?]
Origin: (Same as OoT Ganon)
Killed: By the Master Sword

Notes: "Ganon" (both Daimaou and Jaaku no Ou Ganon) is said to be only killed by the Silver Arrows. Ganondorf is seen to be killed by the Master Sword twice. "Ganon" is "destroyed" by a sword in OoX.

Hypotheses:
1) If Ganon/dorf is felled by the Master Sword, the maou Ganon will survive.
2) If Ganon is killed by the Silver Arrows, a revival ritual is needed for his return.
3) Ganondorf reincarnates separate from Ganon.
4) The soul of "Daimaou Ganon" (LoZ Ganon) is placed in a vessel (the Trident) in OoX, and survives when Ganon is killed in that game. From this point on, Ganon is "Yami no [Ma]ou."
5) After OoX, the soul of "Yami no [Ma]ou Ganon" remains in the Trident until FSA, where it takes a new body from Ganondorf.
6) "Yami no Maou Ganon" is the same character that appears in ALttP.
7) Ganon in general is referred to as a Jaaku no Ou, or "evil king."

Conclusion
OoT: Daimaou Ganon is born when Ganondorf touches the Triforce. Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm at the end.
TWW: Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm and his killed. Daimaou Ganon can only be killed with the Silver Arrows, so he survives.
LoZ: Daimaou Ganon takes the Triforce of Power, and is later killed by Link with the Silver Arrows.
OoX: Daimaou Ganon is revived and his spirit is placed in the vessel. Daimaou Ganon's body is destroyed by Link, but since he can only be killed with the Silver Arrows, he survives. Before his death, Ganon declares himself Yami no Maou.
FSA: Yami no Maou Ganon is released by Ganondorf, whose body is used to revive him. Ganondorf becomes Yami no Maou Ganon, and is sealed in the Four Sword.
ALttP: Yami no Maou Ganon reenters the Sacred Realm, but before he can conquer the Light World he is killed by Link with the Silver Arrows.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 25 October 2008 - 09:26 PM.

[jacensolo06]

I have a few corrections on the titles of Ganondorf you have here:

1: ALttP's "Jaaku no Ou" means "King of Evil" not "King of Darkness".

2:FSA and OoX's Ganon is "Yami no (Ma)Ou" which means "(Demon) King of Darkness".

[Lexxi Aileron]

Oh, I see. (Does Jaaku no Ou appear anywhere else, then? My source appears to be wrong about its appearance in FSA.)

I had been meaning to inquire about the "maou of darkness" thing but it seems to line up pretty well in any case.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 25 October 2008 - 08:31 PM.

[jacensolo06]

I just checked and "Jaaku no Ou" does not appear in OoT, WW, FSA, or TP, so I think it's safe to say that it appears only in the ALttP manual story.

[Lexxi Aileron]

So I guess we could say, given the way it's used (to identify Ganon as the evil who constantly threatens Hyrule), that it refers to Ganon collectively, no single incarnation or appearance?

[jacensolo06]

The manual only says the "Jaaku no Ou Ganon" threatened Hyrule. There's no "constantly". Also, given that, at the time the manual was written, there was only one Ganon, all we can say with certainty is that the legend is referring to the creation of the Ganon who is in ALttP. Beyond that, it really depends on one's timeline.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Also, given that, at the time the manual was written, there was only one Ganon

Er, two? Ganon was killed in both of the games featuring him. The translators seem to think this reference is suggesting to veteran Zelda players that this is the origin of the character Ganon who they already know. While at the time this was limited to LoZ and AoL, there's no reason why it would exclude other games, is there?

[jacensolo06]

I just kind of ignored Ganon's death at the end of ALttP there, didn't I? My bad.

Anyways, yeah, that was definitely written for the veteran Zelda players. And other than my not thinking that the ALttP backstory is the original Ganon origin story anymore, I don't think there's really a good reason to exclude other games from it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Hypotheses:
1) If Ganon/dorf is felled by the Master Sword, the maou Ganon will survive.
2) If Ganon is killed by the Silver Arrows, a revival ritual is needed for his return.
3) Ganondorf reincarnates separate from Ganon.
4) The soul of "Daimaou Ganon" (LoZ Ganon) is placed in a vessel (the Trident) in OoX, and survives when Ganon is killed in that game. From this point on, Ganon is "Yami no [Ma]ou."
5) After OoX, the soul of "Yami no [Ma]ou Ganon" remains in the Trident until FSA, where it takes a new body from Ganondorf.
6) "Yami no Maou Ganon" is the same character that appears in ALttP.
7) Ganon in general is referred to as a Jaaku no Ou, or "evil king."

Better hypothesis: They're all the same general being with two forms, one that can be killed more than one way, one that can only be killed with Silver Arrows. The singular Ganon(dorf) reincarnates like everyone else in Hyrule, but can be preemptively revived magically with his dark powers intact so he doesn't have to start from scratch.

Origin: Twinrova sacrifices their body and calls the "Daimaou Ganon" (same as OoT/TWW/LoZ Ganon?) spirit into the yorishiro ("vessel": Trident?)

The yorishiro is the body that was being sacrificed, intended to be Zelda. Twinrova gave herself instead, but she didn't fit, so Ganondorf's soul wasn't called down into it.

[Hero of Legend]

Or we just accept that Nintendo canned the Silver Arrows long ago and don't bother making stupid theories where Ganon can be killed on multiple levels for no reason.

[Arturo]

ALttP Ganon
Title: Yami no Maou (Demon King of Darkness)
Form: Blue Demon Beast
Source(s) of Power: [Triforce?], Trident
Origin: Ganondorf the thief/Ganon the King of Evil "rediscovered the Sacred Realm" and transformed it into a cursed Makai (Dark World), but was unable to return to the Light World to conquer it as well
Killed: By the Silver Arrows

Why do you enjoy twisting ALttP so much?

[Showsni]

What's with all this "source of power: trident"? The only game we can say that of is FSA.

[Lexxi Aileron]

As for the Trident, it's mentioned because it's not known whether Ganon has direct access to the Triforce's individual powers in ALttP or whether it simply transformed the world to his whim in accordance with his wish.

Why do you enjoy twisting ALttP so much?

This description is entirely accurate, as that's exactly what the game says.

The yorishiro is the body that was being sacrificed, intended to be Zelda

Zelda was described as the "Holy Sacrifice" in the very same breath that the "yorishiro" was introduced. I say the Trident is the yorishiro because it's implied that Ganon's soul dwells inside it in FSA. The resurrection scene puts this concept in context.

Also, it looks like there are three forms:

1) Human Ganondorf
2) Daimaou Ganon (demon beast)
3) Yami no Maou Ganon (demon beast with soul in trident)

I distinguish between the latter two because it seems his soul being in the trident somehow allows him to survive in FSA despite being killed at some other point (probably OoX, given the context of the partial-resurrection).

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 26 October 2008 - 09:18 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Zelda was described as the "Holy Sacrifice" in the very same breath that the "yorishiro" was introduced.

Alright, that was a bit of a bad wording. The body BECOMES the "yorishiro", which would be the Ganon-body created from the sacrifice. The Trident can't really be one, as traditionally they have to be humanoid, like a doll.

I say the Trident is the yorishiro because it's implied that Ganon's soul dwells inside it in FSA.

No such thing is implied and you know it.

Also, it looks like there are three forms:

1) Human Ganondorf
2) Daimaou Ganon (demon beast)
3) Yami no Maou Ganon (demon beast with soul in trident)

NO WAI CAN HE HAVE TWO IDENTICAL FORMS WITH ALTERNATE TITLES THAT MEAN THE SAME DAMN THING! THEY HAVE TO BE DIBBRENT.

I distinguish between the latter two because it seems his soul being in the trident somehow allows him to survive in FSA despite being killed at some other point (probably OoX, given the context of the partial-resurrection).

I sometimes wonder if people on this board ever get penis rashes from all the excessive wanking.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The Trident can't really be one, as traditionally they have to be humanoid, like a doll.

If Zelda was the yorishiro, she would be called a "yorimashi" (憑坐) wouldn't she?
Also, it's common for weapons to serve as yorishiro, is it not?

http://eos.kokugakui...php?entryID=296

NO WAI CAN HE HAVE TWO IDENTICAL FORMS WITH ALTERNATE TITLES THAT MEAN THE SAME DAMN THING! THEY HAVE TO BE DIBBRENT.

More like "no wai does two titles being used sporadically make more sense than two titles being used consistently."

[MikePetersSucks]

If Zelda was the yorishiro, she would be called a "yorimashi" (憑坐) wouldn't she?
Also, it's common for weapons to serve as yorishiro, is it not?

http://eos.kokugakui...php?entryID=296

Well, I don't know, but my maternal family's shrine has always represented Yorishiro as humanlike figures, such as dolls or idols. This might be because we tended to one of the main shrines for Amaterasu, though, whom had an issue with being represented by non-anthropomorphic forms (Which is part of the pun in Okami, if any of you have played it).

Either way, Yorimashi is a form of Yorishiro, not an entirely separate class, but a subset, as a Yorishiro can be "an object or a person." Given the ritual Twinrova was using, they were obviously conducting a human-based ritual, and, as in all cases of Zelda vocab, went with the "grander" word.

[jacensolo06]

I don't know too much about this, so I could be wrong. But if Ganon is resurrected via a Yorishiro, wouldn't the Yorishiro turn into his new body? Therefore, if the trident was the Yorishiro, Ganon couldn't be wielding it.

[Arturo]

This description is entirely accurate, as that's exactly what the game says.

We must have played different games, then. Because there's no fucking mention to the Trident in the game. None. At all. So don't invent things and pretend them to be true.

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't know too much about this, so I could be wrong. But if Ganon is resurrected via a Yorishiro, wouldn't the Yorishiro turn into his new body? Therefore, if the trident was the Yorishiro, Ganon couldn't be wielding it.

Yes, exactly.

[Raien]

The end of this scene sums up my thoughts on this topic:

Edited by Raian, 27 October 2008 - 02:23 PM.

[wring]

Four Sword Adventure strongly implies Ganon is just a shortened version of Ganondorf. Which is how the Red Maiden recognises him in the first place. But she doesn't recognise the name Ganon, only Ganondorf.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I interpret the scene, now that I know the nature of the "vessel," as follows:

Zelda was needed as "Holy Sacrifice" to summon the spirit of Ganon. (Twinrova had to be used instead)
Once her offering was complete, Ganon's spirit entered the Trident.
After this point, the trident can act as it does in FSA.

And before anyone accuses me of interpreting this in light of my theory: I have always vehemently opposed the very idea I have just proposed.

We must have played different games, then. Because there's no fucking mention to the Trident in the game. None. At all. So don't invent things and pretend them to be true.

I never said it was mentioned. I said he uses it.

[Arturo]

And that makes it the source of his evil power? Riiiiiiiiiiiight ¬¬

[Lexxi Aileron]

And that makes it the source of his evil power? Riiiiiiiiiiiight ¬¬

Of the two things known to be sources of his power in the Zelda series, he is seen using that one. The other was used to fulfill his wish, but seems to have been locked in that one room for most of the game. Is this somehow not accurate, or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 27 October 2008 - 07:47 PM.

[wring]

I thought the revived Ganon didn't have a spirit in the Oracles games. Wasn't he a mindless monster or something?

[Lexxi Aileron]

He didn't have a mind. Which helps explain that whole blood-thirsty description in FSA...

[MikePetersSucks]

Zelda was needed as "Holy Sacrifice" to summon the spirit of Ganon. (Twinrova had to be used instead)
Once her offering was complete, Ganon's spirit entered the Trident.
After this point, the trident can act as it does in FSA.

The spirit was intended to enter the sacrificed body, which is why Twinrova's transforms into Ganon's. It doesn't matter, though, since no spirit ultimately comes down. OOX Ganon is an empty shell running on pure malevolence and anger.

He didn't have a mind. Which helps explain that whole blood-thirsty description in FSA...

Blood-thirsty != Mindless.

And if you really try and say that FSA Ganon is mindless, you are the ultimate in braindead.

[Arturo]

And that makes it the source of his evil power? Riiiiiiiiiiiight ¬¬

Of the two things known to be sources of his power in the Zelda series, he is seen using that one. The other was used to fulfill his wish, but seems to have been locked in that one room for most of the game. Is this somehow not accurate, or are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it?

It is inaccurate until it's demonstrated that the Trident is the source of his power in ALttP, which there's no indication in the game that it is. You just like inventing things from ALttP, biased by what happens in FSA: and if you are trying to take every game separately, you are supposed not to do it.

You could say that the Trident might be the source of his power, and then I wouldn't disagree, although I personally believe it to be false. But you cannot treat it as a canon fact, because that's just plain false.

[Lexxi Aileron]

MPS: FSA Ganon isn't mindless, no. FSA Ganondorf isn't, so why would his transformation be? This isn't like OoX where a body is being sacrificed to revive his.

It is inaccurate until it's demonstrated that the Trident is the source of his power in ALttP, which there's no indication in the game that it is. You just like inventing things from ALttP, biased by what happens in FSA: and if you are trying to take every game separately, you are supposed not to do it.

You could say that the Trident might be the source of his power, and then I wouldn't disagree, although I personally believe it to be false. But you cannot treat it as a canon fact, because that's just plain false.

I'm not saying it is the source of his power; the "source(s) of power" section lists all the things that are sources of his power that he uses in each game. The Trident happens to be the one we see in ALttP. His power could come from the Triforce just as well, but since he's using the Trident, it's safe to say that he's using its powers.

[wring]

I never found the part of FSA that said the Trident was what turned Ganondorf into Ganon...