91 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

The Gerudo are forced into a unique situation by their inability to produce males; they must actively seek out Hylian males to mate with or else their tribe dies. There is no indication here that the Gerudo or the Hylians are part of a culture of casual inter-breeding for reasons other than to keep the Gerudo tribe alive. There is no indication that the Gerudo maintain relationships with Hylians before or after their babies are born. There is no indication that the Gerudo babies form any part of Hylian society, which would allow them to affect the Hylian population. And most importantly, there is no indication that any of these points occur for other races in Hyrule.

In short, you take the simple fact that Gerudo rely on inter-breeding to keep their tribe alive, and you build on top of that with a lot of baseless assumptions to suit your theory. Unless you have anything more concrete to justify your theory, then I have nothing more to say on the subject.

None of that, whatsoever, is a smidge of evidence against the possibility of other races interbreeding for any other reason. And given the issue with LTTP, and the fact that your beloved "Magical symbolism" wasn't yet constructed in the series, implies that interbreeding is the culprit. What part of "thin blood" is so hard? It's not even like the issue where the Sages, where the kanji for blood has alternative meanings.

So you are arguing that because stagnation is itself a form of change, stagnation cannot be visibly represented by the decline of magic? How can be the principles of order and stagnation be upheld if stagnation cannot by definition be seen to occur?

No, the decline of magic is change, so it can't be stagnation.

I never provided any specific definitions of spirits and magic, but I am stating that spirits and magic exist for people to explain the nature of our existence, and that they thus operate beyond physical laws. The fact that everything physical in the Zelda universe has a magical essence demonstrates this clearly.

Saying things like "Magic is a connection to the divine" is by no means universal, even in the context of the series, is what I meant.

It's called context. Majora's Mask takes place in another dimension, in which the characters are given different identities than in Hyrule. The Gerudo are no longer thieves, but pirates. The Deku now have a royal family, the Zoras all enjoy a modern rock music group. I don't think that what applies in Termina applies to Hyrule because Termina is not meant to be a reflection of Hyrule.

So Termina doesn't apply to your Magical Symbolism stuff? If you're going to make big sweeping observations about the series multiverse, you can't just exclude a world because it doesn't fit cozy.

Could you elaborate please? Metaphysics is a form of philosophy, not science, and I cannot find any defined metaphysical laws on the internet that relate to this debate.

Metaphysical law, as in laws that work outside physics and/or OVER physics. An example would be "all souls must be reincarnated based on their karma" or something.

[Raien]

None of that, whatsoever, is a smidge of evidence against the possibility of other races interbreeding for any other reason.

And there is no evidence against the possibility that aliens abducted Zelda in OoT! Right, I'm done with this.

And given the issue with LTTP, and the fact that your beloved "Magical symbolism" wasn't yet constructed in the series, implies that interbreeding is the culprit.

Magical symbolism is inherent to all mythology; it's been around long before the Zelda series and we can see basic applications in even the first Zelda game. The very fact that the magical Triforce pieces are related to concepts of Wisdom and Power is symbolic. The series elaborated the symbolism over time, but to say that it did not exist from the very beginning is rubbish.

What part of "thin blood" is so hard? It's not even like the issue where the Sages, where the kanji for blood has alternative meanings.

The spiritual connection between father and son has always been referred to as a blood connection. "Thin blood" has no more established connotations with inter-breeding than it relates to the spirtual/magical, and my belief that it refers to a simple lack of magical potency in the Hylian blood is no more-or-less proven than yours.

No, the decline of magic is change, so it can't be stagnation.

Then what would count as stagnation? How do we actually see a civilisation stagnating?

So Termina doesn't apply to your Magical Symbolism stuff? If you're going to make big sweeping observations about the series multiverse, you can't just exclude a world because it doesn't fit cozy.

Termina does apply to magical symbolism, but the characters are not the same as in Hyrule. The fact that boss villains Koume & Kotake are good-natured in Termina shows that Nintendo were taking a very liberal approach to the characters in Majora's Mask. The fact that the Deku Tribe have a royal family and the Zoras have a music group establish that Termina's culture in general is quite different from Hyrule's culture. I don't believe that one Zora fancying a Gerudo in Termina's culture justifies an entire culture of inter-breeding in Hyrule. It's a clearly silly connection just by saying it out loud.

Metaphysical law, as in laws that work outside physics and/or OVER physics. An example would be "all souls must be reincarnated based on their karma" or something.

I'm not convinced. It sounds like you want metaphysics to do what magic does in the Zelda universe; provide a connection between the physical world and the forces that created it. And what makes metaphysical theory justified in the face of other forms of philosophy? It's not established as a science and it doesn't have a mythological basis, so what reason do you believe it should be applied to the Zelda universe?

Edited by Raian, 02 November 2008 - 10:13 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

And there is no evidence against the possibility that aliens abducted Zelda in OoT! Right, I'm done with this.

Yes there is, if you played the game. Come on, don't be immature. You're taking my legitimate proposition and insultingly comparing it to "LULZ ALIENS BLRWD UP HYROOL"

Magical symbolism is inherent to all mythology; it's been around long before the Zelda series and we can see basic applications in even the first Zelda game. The very fact that the magical Triforce pieces are related to concepts of Wisdom and Power is symbolic. The series elaborated the symbolism over time, but to say that it did not exist from the very beginning is rubbish.

Yea, and until roughly OOT, the series had a vibe that implied it could've taken place in a kingdom of our world. And before LTTP, the Triforce was intended to be alien floppy disks. Your theory is bunk.

The spiritual connection between father and son has always been referred to as a blood connection.

[citation needed.]

Then what would count as stagnation? How do we actually see a civilisation stagnating?

Stagnation would be...stagnation. A lack of progress or decline. Breaking even.

Termina does apply to magical symbolism, but the characters are not the same as in Hyrule. The fact that boss villains Koume & Kotake are good-natured in Termina shows that Nintendo were taking a very liberal approach to the characters in Majora's Mask. The fact that the Deku Tribe have a royal family and the Zoras have a music group establish that Termina's culture in general is quite different from Hyrule's culture. I don't believe that one Zora fancying a Gerudo in Termina's culture justifies an entire culture of inter-breeding in Hyrule. It's a clearly silly connection just by saying it out loud.

It's one more piece of evidence. Apparently, Zora having a desire to interbreed isn't altogether uncommon in EITHER world, and I'm sure that desire wouldn't be there if it weren't possible, and therefore proven to be possible by demonstration. You've still yet to explain how or why races wouldn't or couldn't interbreed. Even stories rife with magical symbolism have it, such as Greek Mythology, Tolkein, C.S. Lewis...

I'm not convinced. It sounds like you want metaphysics to do what magic does in the Zelda universe; provide a connection between the physical world and the forces that created it. And what makes metaphysical theory justified in the face of other forms of philosophy? It's not established as a science and it doesn't have a mythological basis, so what reason do you believe it should be applied to the Zelda universe?

*headdesk* That's not what I fucking said at all. Magic by definition is metaphysical. What I stated was a fact, not a proposition. Reincarnation is metaphysical. Gods are metaphysical. Souls are metaphysical. The very word means "beyond the physical."

Please atleast Google up words before making an immense ass of yourself.

[wring]

Phantom Hourglass states that the Life Force is responsible for things being alive. In ancient times they didn't know about cells nor DNA, so they believed there was some sort of magical force, or object that makes things alive, and the inanimate objects are missing this thing. Phantom Hourglass fits that belief perfectly. So life in Hyrule is a magical force, not a chemical reaction and it implies that Cells and DNA don't exsist in Hyrule, but are replaced with this force.

So for evolution to exsist, you have to completely ignore the plot of Phantom Hourglass. Either that or heavily reinterpret it.

[Raien]

Yes there is, if you played the game. Come on, don't be immature. You're taking my legitimate proposition and insultingly comparing it to "LULZ ALIENS BLRWD UP HYROOL"

Your proposition is not legitimate. The Gerudo mate with Hylians to keep their tribe alive; that is the only information regarding the Gerudo-Hylian inter-breeding. Everything you add on top of that is fanfiction, and you cannot ask me to disprove fanfiction.

Yea, and until roughly OOT, the series had a vibe that implied it could've taken place in a kingdom of our world. And before LTTP, the Triforce was intended to be alien floppy disks. Your theory is bunk.

Hyrule in LoZ and AoL was distinguished from the real world by the existence of specific magical powers, demons and a demon world, which instigated the fight between good and evil. Link was a heroic young boy with sword-in-hand fighting hideous monsters to rescue the fair princess Zelda. This is all symbolism.

[citation needed.]

The Hero's bloodline. Link inherited his heroic spirit from his ancestor, and the spiritual connection between the two heroes was visually represented as the "divine beast". I'm pretty confident that neither of them possess "wolf-magic" genes; it's a symbolic representation. I could also refer to The Lion King again, which defined Simba's character as a king by the spiritual connection to his father.

Stagnation would be...stagnation. A lack of progress or decline. Breaking even.

But the consequence of stagnation always takes the form of a decline. Stagnation would not possess negative connotations if it did not have negative consequences.

It's one more piece of evidence. Apparently, Zora having a desire to interbreed isn't altogether uncommon in EITHER world, and I'm sure that desire wouldn't be there if it weren't possible, and therefore proven to be possible by demonstration. You've still yet to explain how or why races wouldn't or couldn't interbreed. Even stories rife with magical symbolism have it, such as Greek Mythology, Tolkein, C.S. Lewis...

I don't think it's impossible for the races in Hyrule to inter-breed, just that there is no proof that it took place or this is how the Hylians declined. I'm also aware that there is no proof for my argument either, and that's why all I'm really looking for is an acknowledgement that there isn't any conclusive proof on the subject. You are asserting that the "blood-thinning" is proof of inter-breeding, and I am asserting that what causes the blood-thinning is really unknown.

*headdesk* That's not what I fucking said at all. Magic by definition is metaphysical. What I stated was a fact, not a proposition. Reincarnation is metaphysical. Gods are metaphysical. Souls are metaphysical. The very word means "beyond the physical."

Please at least Google up words before making an immense ass of yourself.

I googled up "metaphysics" and read the wikipedia article, and I saw nothing that shows a relationship between the theory of metaphysics and the dynamics of magic defined in the Zelda mythology. Does metaphysics account for the unity of the elemental magics or the people's transformations under Light magic? Is the balance of Power, Wisdom or Courage accounted for in metaphysical theory? Is there anything in the Zelda games at all that tell us the writers were working under metaphysical theory?

Edited by Raian, 02 November 2008 - 05:03 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Phantom Hourglass states that the Life Force is responsible for things being alive. In ancient times they didn't know about cells nor DNA, so they believed there was some sort of magical force, or object that makes things alive, and the inanimate objects are missing this thing. Phantom Hourglass fits that belief perfectly. So life in Hyrule is a magical force, not a chemical reaction and it implies that Cells and DNA don't exsist in Hyrule, but are replaced with this force.

So for evolution to exsist, you have to completely ignore the plot of Phantom Hourglass. Either that or heavily reinterpret it.

Since when did life energy equate to the physical matter composing life?

Your proposition is not legitimate. The Gerudo mate with Hylians to keep their tribe alive; that is the only information regarding the Gerudo-Hylian inter-breeding. Everything you add on top of that is fanfiction, and you cannot ask me to disprove fanfiction.

I'm just saying that interbreeding does exist, and it takes more leaps in logic to assume this is the only instance despite common sense.

Hyrule in LoZ and AoL was distinguished from the real world by the existence of specific magical powers, demons and a demon world, which instigated the fight between good and evil. Link was a heroic young boy with sword-in-hand fighting hideous monsters to rescue the fair princess Zelda. This is all symbolism.

The word you're looking for is archetypes, not symbolism. There is a difference, and the latter word is inappropriate and misleading. But either way, that doesn't change that Hyrule was originally compatible with a "Fantastic Earth."

But the consequence of stagnation always takes the form of a decline. Stagnation would not possess negative connotations if it did not have negative consequences.

Always? Prove it.

I don't think it's impossible for the races in Hyrule to inter-breed, just that there is no proof that it took place or this is how the Hylians declined. I'm also aware that there is no proof for my argument either, and that's why all I'm really looking for is an acknowledgement that there isn't any conclusive proof on the subject. You are asserting that the "blood-thinning" is proof of inter-breeding, and I am asserting that what causes the blood-thinning is really unknown.

Well, considering that there's nothing within the text or context to imply there's anything non-literal about the "blood-thinning" aspect like with the issue of the Sages, I'm going to assume it's literal. Occam's Razor applies, here.

I googled up "metaphysics" and read the wikipedia article, and I saw nothing that shows a relationship between the theory of metaphysics and the dynamics of magic defined in the Zelda mythology. Does metaphysics account for the unity of the elemental magics or the people's transformations under Light magic? Is the balance of Power, Wisdom or Courage accounted for in metaphysical theory? Is there anything in the Zelda games at all that tell us the writers were working under metaphysical theory?

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say, here. Metaphysics is an umbrella term for all potentially supernatural trans-physical laws of the universe, whether ours or a fictional one, not just one single theory. For example, the metaphysics of Hyrule would state that magic is a force derived from the elements of the goddesses or what have you, while the metaphysics of Discworld state that magic is the absence of reality, fueled by narrativium. You're basically saying that "cosmology" can't be used to describe Hyrule's space/time properties because it doesn't fit Wikipedia's description of studying astrophysics.

[Raien]

I'm just saying that interbreeding does exist, and it takes more leaps in logic to assume this is the only instance despite common sense.

Inter-breeding does exist, but only because it is forced by the Gerudo's inability to reproduce their own males. If a group of people were forced to commit murder to save themselves, it doesn't mean that everyone commits murder on a regular basis.

The word you're looking for is archetypes, not symbolism. There is a difference, and the latter word is inappropriate and misleading. But either way, that doesn't change that Hyrule was originally compatible with a "Fantastic Earth."

Archetypes are symbolic. Good and evil are symbols representing morality in human nature. Heroes and villains symbolise character types revered and loathed in society.

Always? Prove it.

It comes with the term. "Stagnation" is a negative word; you yourself said that too much order can lead to stagnation, which is negative. I'm asking you why stagnation is negative if it doesn't demonstrate anything negative.

Well, considering that there's nothing within the text or context to imply there's anything non-literal about the "blood-thinning" aspect like with the issue of the Sages, I'm going to assume it's literal. Occam's Razor applies, here.

The only literal definition of blood-thinning is related to "a drug used to prevent the formation of blood clots by hindering coagulation of the blood". Your interpretation of the term in ALttP is no more literal than mine. If we were really applying Occam's Razor, we'd have to wonder why the Hylians were trying to prevent the formation of blood clots.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say, here. Metaphysics is an umbrella term for all potentially supernatural trans-physical laws of the universe, whether ours or a fictional one, not just one single theory. For example, the metaphysics of Hyrule would state that magic is a force derived from the elements of the goddesses or what have you, while the metaphysics of Discworld state that magic is the absence of reality, fueled by narrativium. You're basically saying that "cosmology" can't be used to describe Hyrule's space/time properties because it doesn't fit Wikipedia's description of studying astrophysics.

I'm asking what evidence there is that the Zelda writers were working with metaphysical laws in the development of its story, as opposed to simply creating a fictional magic. It hardly matters whether metaphysics can or cannot be applied to Zelda mythology if the writers weren't writing it into their stories in the first place.

Edited by Raian, 03 November 2008 - 07:35 AM.

[Arturo]

Since when did life energy equate to the physical matter composing life?

Since the vitalistic hypothesis was disproved... 200 years ago.

[MikePetersSucks]

Inter-breeding does exist, but only because it is forced by the Gerudo's inability to reproduce their own males. If a group of people were forced to commit murder to save themselves, it doesn't mean that everyone commits murder on a regular basis.

Fair enough, but it's not realistic to assume that no one else does it, even if it's just a handful of taboo-breaking people in the shadows.

Archetypes are symbolic. Good and evil are symbols representing morality in human nature. Heroes and villains symbolise character types revered and loathed in society.

Archetypes have slightly different connotations, but otherwise yea.

It comes with the term. "Stagnation" is a negative word; you yourself said that too much order can lead to stagnation, which is negative. I'm asking you why stagnation is negative if it doesn't demonstrate anything negative.

Because negative things don't always lead to DECLINE. Stagnation is a bad thing because it keeps changes from happening of any sort, which is antithetical to meaning in life.

The only literal definition of blood-thinning is related to "a drug used to prevent the formation of blood clots by hindering coagulation of the blood". Your interpretation of the term in ALttP is no more literal than mine. If we were really applying Occam's Razor, we'd have to wonder why the Hylians were trying to prevent the formation of blood clots.

Now you're just being silly. "Blood-thinning" isn't even a noun.

I'm asking what evidence there is that the Zelda writers were working with metaphysical laws in the development of its story, as opposed to simply creating a fictional magic. It hardly matters whether metaphysics can or cannot be applied to Zelda mythology if the writers weren't writing it into their stories in the first place.

That fictional magic IS metaphysics. Every time you incite magic, you're inciting magic. Everytime you say "The seal can only be broken by sacrificing the Maidens", you're making a statement about the metaphysical nature of the seal.

Since the vitalistic hypothesis was disproved... 200 years ago.

Lol. But seriously, Life Force doesn't equate to the actual physical matter composing people in Hyrule.

[Raien]

Fair enough, but it's not realistic to assume that no one else does it, even if it's just a handful of taboo-breaking people in the shadows.

If it's just a handful of people, then there's no way it could affect the entire Hylian population. Inter-breeding would have to be a common occurence for it to have any meaningful impact, on at least the scale that different races commonly mate in the real world today. The problem with Hyrule is that apart from a couple of tradesmen and tourists, the different races keep very much to themselves; especially the Sheikah. It's not impossible for regular inter-breeding to take place in Hyrule, but there's no evidence that the culture exists to make it a real likelihood.

Because negative things don't always lead to DECLINE. Stagnation is a bad thing because it keeps changes from happening of any sort, which is antithetical to the meaning in life.

That's a fair point. But considering that the Hylian magic is a specific representation of the connection between the Hylians and the gods, I still think that the decline represents some sort of failure by the Hylians to uphold that connection. I considered a lack of faith earlier in this debate, but you pointed out that the goddesses were still believed in by the Hylians' descendants. I've considered stagnation, and I still think this may possible with respect for someone being "worthy" of the Triforce. Maybe the problem isn't actually stagnation, but that the Hylians are regressing over time. I get the impression that Hyrule is less culturally sophisticated in ALttP and LoZ than it was in OoT and TP (although that could just be to do with the age of the games).

Now you're just being silly. "Blood-thinning" isn't even a noun.

Google "blood-thinning" and provide me an article where the term refers to genetic impurity. Do that, and I'll accept that your definition is literal. If you can't, I'm calling bullshit.

That fictional magic IS metaphysics. Every time you incite magic, you're inciting metaphysics. Everytime you say "The seal can only be broken by sacrificing the Maidens", you're making a statement about the metaphysical nature of the seal.

But are the writers aware that they are inciting metaphysics or dealing with the metaphysical nature of seals? I don't think that just because magic can be defined by metaphysical laws, that the writers were actually applying metaphysical laws to their stories. I don't believe that the relation between the physical and magical in the Zelda mythos relates to metaphysics unless the writers intended this to be true.

Edited by Raian, 03 November 2008 - 05:04 PM.

[CID Farwin]

C'mon, people, it's getting to the riddiculous point.

Google "blood-thinning" and provide me an article where the term refers to genetic impurity. Do that, and I'll accept that your definition is literal. If you can't, I'm calling bullshit.

Sorry, I had to go to ask.com, but I hope you won't mind
http://www.ford-truc...-tennessee.html

True story: Wolves ARE on the endangered list, and where once they roamed pretty much all of north america, they are now found in only a very few locations.

Some of the reasons they are disappearing are not so obvious as we might think at first.

There is, for example, a breed of Red Wolf in Tidewater Virginia that has been found to be inter-breeding with local domestic dogs and coyotes, thereby thinning the bloodline.

Before long, if this continues, there will be no more pure Red Wolves in this part of the country.

http://www.etoile.co...ibe/040621.html

With three consanguineous marriages of monarchs in only five generations, it could be said that the royal blood was running a bit thin in Britain.

The exact term "blood-thinning" no, but don't be ridiculous; the term's not even used in Zelda. Reference to thinning of blood, while talking about genetic impurity. There you go.

Or were you going for something else?

Edited by CID Farwin, 03 November 2008 - 06:12 PM.

[Raien]

The exact term "blood-thinning" no, but don't be ridiculous; the term's not even used in Zelda. Reference to thinning of blood, while talking about genetic impurity. There you go.

Or were you going for something else?

No, that was what I was asking for. I'm still not convinced that the decline of the Hylian blood was due to general inter-breeding, simply because I don't see any implications of it anywhere else in the series. It's the lack of further implications that convinces me that the magical decline is symbolically related to the goddesses, as well as the fact that it fits more concisely with my current frame of understanding.

Edited by Raian, 03 November 2008 - 06:31 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

I'm still not convinced that the decline of the Hylian blood was due to general inter-breeding, simply because I don't see any implications of it anywhere else in the series. It's the lack of further implications that convinces me that the magical decline is symbolically related to the goddesses, as well as the fact that it fits more concisely with my current frame of understanding.

I could go on about the principles of logic and reasoning, but I'll just say you can't deny evidence simply because it is incompatible with your current theory - our views of the world must be judged on the basis of what facts are currently known, not the other way around. Saying "A can't be evidence against B because B is true." is simply fallacy.

And as for the matter itself, it's hardly something that needs further mention. Tolkien used genetical blood-thinning in his lore, but only briefly touched upon it in the Lord of the Rings. To make a grand point of it, like he did in some of his other works, basically leads to political intrigue (pure-bloods vs outsiders) on a level thus far unseen in LoZ.

But are the writers aware that they are inciting metaphysics or dealing with the metaphysical nature of seals? I don't think that just because magic can be defined by metaphysical laws, that the writers were actually applying metaphysical laws to their stories. I don't believe that the relation between the physical and magical in the Zelda mythos relates to metaphysics unless the writers intended this to be true.

No offence, but the fact that you talk about "metaphysical laws" as if they were already set tells me you do not understand the concept of metaphysics. Like MPS said, the connection between the divine/mortal, ethereal/corporeal, physical/spiritual is by definition metaphysical. The laws of metaphysics are what you make them - Zelda's writers don't need to mention them by name to make use of them.

Anyway, as I see it, Raian wants to mystify the world by making "magic" or "symbolism" the pivotal point of the Zelda mythos. MPS argues that the world is governed by laws - physical (like gravity) and metaphysical (like the power of the Triforce) and that there is nothing mysterious about them, and that once they have been lain down, they are not easily changed (in-universe). Of course, you could call it magic or metaphysics - it's really just different words for the same thing - but the truth probably lies somewhere in between. I honestly think symbolism is not as powerful Raian wants it to be (personally, I consider the monomyth to be one good, basic outline for a story, but nothing more) but of course the writers can change the less central laws of Zelda to accommodate for whatever story/gameplay they wish to include in that particular game, like they have with pretty much every game so far. Still, in-universe, the laws were pretty much laid down when the goddesses created the world.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 November 2008 - 09:16 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

If it's just a handful of people, then there's no way it could affect the entire Hylian population. Inter-breeding would have to be a common occurence for it to have any meaningful impact, on at least the scale that different races commonly mate in the real world today. The problem with Hyrule is that apart from a couple of tradesmen and tourists, the different races keep very much to themselves; especially the Sheikah. It's not impossible for regular inter-breeding to take place in Hyrule, but there's no evidence that the culture exists to make it a real likelihood.

The results speak for themselves. Something similar happened along the way.

That's a fair point. But considering that the Hylian magic is a specific representation of the connection between the Hylians and the gods, I still think that the decline represents some sort of failure by the Hylians to uphold that connection. I considered a lack of faith earlier in this debate, but you pointed out that the goddesses were still believed in by the Hylians' descendants. I've considered stagnation, and I still think this may possible with respect for someone being "worthy" of the Triforce. Maybe the problem isn't actually stagnation, but that the Hylians are regressing over time. I get the impression that Hyrule is less culturally sophisticated in ALttP and LoZ than it was in OoT and TP (although that could just be to do with the age of the games).

I've actually considered that the failure of the Hylian's side of the connection might be breeding outside of the Hylian race. Chosen races usually have this thing about blood purity.

Also, Hero of Legend rocks for delivering what I wanted to say excellently.

[Raien]

I could go on about the principles of logic and reasoning, but I'll just say you can't deny evidence simply because it is incompatible with your current theory - our views of the world must be judged on the basis of what facts are currently known, not the other way around. Saying "A can't be evidence against B because B is true." is simply fallacy.

The problem for me is the context surrounding the definition. Taking an example from another debate, we know that the Sacred Realm is referred to as the "holy land" in Japanese, but two characters in TP said that the holy land was Hyrule itself. When that debate ended, you accepted that the definition of "holy land" was the same but the context surrounding it was overly vague, whereas I decided that the definition had changed in TP, writing out the Sacred Realm from TP's story altogether. Likewise in this case, you accept the definition of "blood-thinning" as the result of inter-breeding and the context surrounding it as overly vague, whereas I presume the definition is not literal because of an absence of context.

I don't think I'm wrong on either of the above points. I don't think that just because something is clearly defined, like even the Master Sword in Oracles, that it can deny conflicting context which may or may not be evidence of change in the definition.

No offence, but the fact that you talk about "metaphysical laws" as if they were already set tells me you do not understand the concept of metaphysics. Like MPS said, the connection between the divine/mortal, ethereal/corporeal, physical/spiritual is by definition metaphysical. The laws of metaphysics are what you make them - Zelda's writers don't need to mention them by name to make use of them.

Anyway, as I see it, Raian wants to mystify the world by making "magic" or "symbolism" the pivotal point of the Zelda mythos. MPS argues that the world is governed by laws - physical (like gravity) and metaphysical (like the power of the Triforce) and that there is nothing mysterious about them, and that once they have been lain down, they are not easily changed (in-universe). Of course, you could call it magic or metaphysics - it's really just different words for the same thing - but the truth probably lies somewhere in between. I honestly think symbolism is not as powerful Raian wants it to be (personally, I consider the monomyth to be one good, basic outline for a story, but nothing more) but of course the writers can change the less central laws of Zelda to accommodate for whatever story/gameplay they wish to include in that particular game, like they have with pretty much every game so far. Still, in-universe, the laws were pretty much laid down when the goddesses created the world.

Here's my current stance on the subject. Symbolism is not at its core a philosophical dogma, but an inherent part of communication. When you create an image or word that represents a meaning, you are creating a symbol. Symbolism is inherent to everything man-made because we could not communicate our individual identities without it. Human emotions are attached to symbols, but those symbols must be clear and identifiable to create a strong emotional response. Any intelligent person today will tell you that morality is a series of subtle grays, but stories that present good and evil as absolutes are ultimately going to be more emotionally powerful. When you start delving into the subtle grays, you encourage the audience to consider where they stand on the subject matter, which ultimately diminishes a potential emotional response.

My theoretical perspective of Zelda, in both the timeline board and outside of it, takes the form of a question: "What makes Zelda popular?" I choose to focus much of my attention on symbolism in the Zelda mythology because I believe it to be key to Zelda's popularity. The reason why I have compared it to The Lion King on a few occasions is because I believe symbolism made that film so generally popular as well. Now, from my investigations into the symbolism of Twilight Princess, I am convinced that the Zelda writers didn't bump into this storytelling formula by accident. I believe the writers have used symbolism intentionally to create an emotional response from the audience, and this has led to the Zelda series being revered as one the most emotionally powerful video-game series of all time. I'm not "mystifying the Zelda mythology" out of a personal conviction, but because this is how I see the Zelda series appealing to the popular mass, who are ultimately the audience that the Zelda writers are writing for. By focusing on accessibility, and how emotionally strong meanings are constructed in the Zelda series, I believe that I have pieced these meanings together to establish the fundamental mythology in Zelda.

Now, my problem with metaphysics is that it is just one of several different philosophies pertaining to the nature of existence in the real world. It may appear to be all-inclusive with regards to fictional concepts like magic, but you can theoretically apply any philosophy to magic. Let's say I make up this philosophy where "all magic has a protein-basis"; there's nothing stopping me from applying this to Zelda and saying that all the spirits are made of protein. MPS is apparently arguing that magic is defined by genetics because that is based upon his preferred philosophy of metaphysics, and I'm asking whether the writers really establish any suggestion that it is metaphysics they are working with, and not a different philosophy altogether. For example, is there any evidence that karma exists in the Zelda mythology? I've yet to see a single reference to it, and I've checked the translation topics. Personally, I have always considered the creation of an entirely new religion pertaining to the three goddesses as evidence that the Zelda mythology is based upon its own magical laws.

Edited by Raian, 04 November 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Any intelligent person today will tell you that morality is a series of subtle grays, but stories that present good and evil as absolutes are ultimately going to be more emotionally powerful

That can be argued.

Now, my problem with metaphysics is that it is just one of several different philosophies pertaining to the nature of existence in the real world. It may appear to be all-inclusive with regards to fictional concepts like magic, but you can theoretically apply any philosophy to magic.

Metaphysics isn't a philosophy in of itself, it's a study of those types of philosophies.

MPS is apparently arguing that magic is defined by genetics because that is based upon his preferred philosophy of metaphysics

No. Read better.

For example, is there any evidence that karma exists in the Zelda mythology?

Well, considering that fate and reincarnation both exist in Hyrule and bad guys tend to get their just desserts...

[Raien]

Metaphysics isn't a philosophy in of itself, it's a study of those types of philosophies.

Dictionary definitions, wikipedia and various articles establish that Metaphysics is a philosophy that examines the nature of existence.

No. Read better.

Make your point better. I said that magic cannot be defined by DNA because magic is the essence of the physical being. You then referred to metaphysics, but you never clarified how exactly it supports your argument.

Well, considering that fate and reincarnation both exist in Hyrule and bad guys tend to get their just desserts...

Fate and reincarnation exist in other philosophical traditions. Bad guys get their just-desserts in most stories, regardless of mythological origin.

Edited by Raian, 04 November 2008 - 04:24 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Dictionary definitions, wikipedia and various articles establish that Metaphysics is a philosophy that examines the nature of existence.

No, wikipedia (correctly) defines it as "the branch of philosophy investigating principles of reality transcending those of any particular science." It's a subset of philosophy, and either you have a theory on metaphysics or you don't.

Symbolism is not at its core a philosophical dogma, but an inherent part of communication. When you create an image or word that represents a meaning, you are creating a symbol. Symbolism is inherent to everything man-made because we could not communicate our individual identities without it.

And, in some cases, even with it.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"What makes Zelda popular?" I choose to focus much of my attention on symbolism in the Zelda mythology because I believe it to be key to Zelda's popularity. The reason why I have compared it to The Lion King on a few occasions is because I believe symbolism made that film so generally popular as well. Now, from my investigations into the symbolism of Twilight Princess, I am convinced that the Zelda writers didn't bump into this storytelling formula by accident. I believe the writers have used symbolism intentionally to create an emotional response from the audience, and this has led to the Zelda series being revered as one the most emotionally powerful video-game series of all time. I'm not "mystifying the Zelda mythology" out of a personal conviction, but because this is how I see the Zelda series appealing to the popular mass, who are ultimately the audience that the Zelda writers are writing for. By focusing on accessibility, and how emotionally strong meanings are constructed in the Zelda series, I believe that I have pieced these meanings together to establish the fundamental mythology in Zelda.

In my experience, virtually every viable narrative employs some form of symbolism (the monomyth, for example), and Zelda is not much better at it than anyone else. Of course, the monomyth is so vague that pretty much any story can be made to fit with it. At any rate, I agree that symbolism is useful in telling a story, but I think your interpretation of it is are so intricate and off-beat that the "popular mass" can't possibly be expected to pick up on it (granted, people generally don't even know why they liked the story afterwards). And anyway, even if I agree with you (to some extent) in principle, I certainly don't need to do so in practice.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 04 November 2008 - 07:10 PM.

[Raien]

No, wikipedia (correctly) defines it as "the branch of philosophy investigating principles of reality transcending those of any particular science." It's a subset of philosophy, and either you have a theory on metaphysics (i.e. the supernatural, like ontology) or you don't.

My mistake then. I still believe that how metaphysics relates to a fictional universe ultimately depends on the writer, not the reader. What I like about studying symbolism is that I feel like I am deconstructing the writer's own understanding (regardless of how successful I am), which an application of real-world metaphysics does not do.

In my experience, virtually every viable narrative employs some form of symbolism (the monomyth, for example), and Zelda is not much better at it than anyone else. Of course, the monomyth is so vague that pretty much any story can be made to fit with it. At any rate, I agree that symbolism is useful in telling a story, but I think your interpretation of it is are so intricate and off-beat that the "popular mass" can't possibly be expected to pick up on it (granted, people generally don't even know why they liked the story afterwards). And anyway, even if I agree with you (to some extent) in principle, I certainly don't need to do so in practice.

Every narrative employs symbolism, but Zelda makes the symbolism more emotionally accessible to audiences. An abstract film can be symbolic, but the lack of an obvious meaning prevents most audiences from emotionally responding to it. Likewise, a film that focuses too much on subtle grays can have audiences considering the subject matter, which also distracts from a potential emotional response.

I think that where you can find a real dispute among audiences is in whether characters should have inner conflicts. Some audiences hate Link because he is a one-dimensional character, whereas others revere Link as representing an ideal (i.e. heroism). I think a similar situation appears when you compare Marvel comic characters to DC comic characters. Superman and Green Lantern represent ideals, whereas Spider-man and X-Men are about inner conflict. Interestingly though, Batman walks the line as both an ideal and a character with inner-conflict, which I think gives him an advantage over the other comic book characters.

[MikePetersSucks]

Fate and reincarnation exist in other philosophical traditions. Bad guys get their just-desserts in most stories, regardless of mythological origin.

All that karma requires is that your own actions come to bite you in the ass, for better or worse.

[Raien]

All that karma requires is that your own actions come to bite you in the ass, for better or worse.

That doesn't mean the writers were writing karma into the Zelda mythology, no more than any it would mean any of the ancient Western storytellers were writing karma into their stories. Bad-guys getting their just-desserts is a plot device that exists with or without an understanding of karma, and so it isn't evidence that the writers have applied the concept of karma (and by extension, metaphysics) to the Zelda mythology.

Edited by Raian, 05 November 2008 - 07:25 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I could say the same for your magical symbolism; the writers wanted to just plug in stereotypical save the princess plots with a bit more padding to justify fetch quests, they didn't MEAN for us to delegate elaborate symbolic meanings to everything.

[Raien]

I could say the same for your magical symbolism; the writers wanted to just plug in stereotypical save the princess plots with a bit more padding to justify fetch quests, they didn't MEAN for us to delegate elaborate symbolic meanings to everything.

Perhaps they didn't, and perhaps I have analysed the symbolism in too much detail, but I haven't applied any concepts to my theory that didn't appear in some form in the Zelda series. All my conclusions were derived from my own observations of the games themselves, rather than a reliance on real-world philosophies to fill the gaps.

[wring]

Since the vitalistic hypothesis was disproved... 200 years ago.

Lol. But seriously, Life Force doesn't equate to the actual physical matter composing people in Hyrule.

They arn't made of Life Force, they are made of the stone like material Tetra was changed into. The Life Force is what made that stone like material animate. It has nothing to do with real world genetics.

[Raien]

They arn't made of Life Force, they are made of the stone like material Tetra was changed into. The Life Force is what made that stone like material animate. It has nothing to do with real world genetics.

Interesting idea; reminds me of the "God made Adam from clay" concept.

[MikePetersSucks]

Perhaps they didn't, and perhaps I have analysed the symbolism in too much detail, but I haven't applied any concepts to my theory that didn't appear in some form in the Zelda series. All my conclusions were derived from my own observations of the games themselves, rather than a reliance on real-world philosophies to fill the gaps.

Way to insinuate that I do, when I've done no such thing.

They arn't made of Life Force, they are made of the stone like material Tetra was changed into. The Life Force is what made that stone like material animate. It has nothing to do with real world genetics.

That's silly. Tetra was a special case in the first place, for one. According to the dialog, those who get their Life Force totally drained become undead ghouls under Bellum's command, so if anything, Tetra's petrification was probably due to her spiritual purity or something.

Also, rocks don't reproduce.

[Raien]

Way to insinuate that I do, when I've done no such thing.

Why bring metaphysics into the discussion if you weren't intending to apply it to the mythology?

That's silly. Tetra was a special case in the first place, for one. According to the dialog, those who get their Life Force totally drained become undead ghouls under Bellum's command, so if anything, Tetra's petrification was probably due to her spiritual purity or something.

Where was it said that the lack of Life Force transforms people into undead ghouls?

Also, rocks don't reproduce.

Clay doesn't reproduce, but Adam was made from it. It's just a symbol of what separates the living from the non-living.

Edited by Raian, 05 November 2008 - 06:33 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Why bring metaphysics into the discussion if you weren't intending to apply it to the mythology?

I WAS JUST USING THE WORD. I consider every matter about how magic, souls, deities, planes, etc. to be metaphysical matters, since they're trans-physical affairs that often govern physical laws.

Where was it said that the lack of Life Force transforms people into undead ghouls?

The things that hunt you in the Ghost Ship (I forget what they were called Reapers or something) are previous victims of Bellum's, according to one of the Culex Sisters.

Clay doesn't reproduce, but Adam was made from it. It's just a symbol of what separates the living from the non-living.

Wring's statement implies that Hyrulians are literally stone creatures that are being magically animated; Adam was converted into flesh and blood with God's power, and it wasn't so much clay as "the earth", and considering what man is made of, one could interpret it as God making Adam out of the elements that naturally compose our bodies.

[Raien]

The things that hunt you in the Ghost Ship (I forget what they were called Reapers or something) are previous victims of Bellum's, according to one of the Culex Sisters.

According to a Quote FAQ I've found on Zelda Legends, it says that the abducted have fallen victim to the Reapers. This looks like a job for TRANSLATION MAN! *runs to the translation topic*

[Raien]

Update: In light of what jacensolo has revealed, I am inclined to believe that Tetra was not an exception in her stone transformation.