91 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

I disagree to some extent, although I'm aware that I've explained my position before. For the sake of making the case, the natural world in traditional mythology (and the Zelda universe) is defined by its visible function, not by the invisible process that causes said function. For example, water is defined by its ability to nourish life, not by the process through which it nourishes life. That does not mean the invisible process does not exist, so much as the process is completely irrelevant to the mythology. You will never hear the process of water nourishment involved in a traditional myth or a Zelda story.

The theory of evolution is the same; it's an invisible process, having no relevant applications to the Zelda mythology. And since the term "evolution" can possess more general definitions, I think it makes more sense for it to refer to the purely magical change to the Rito's bodies brought about by Valoo's scales. If the Zoras had become human before they "evolved" wings, then I would argue that the goddesses changed them. They had good reason as the Zoras would have been able to interact with Hyrule after the flood.

Fair enough

I'd say the Goddesses creating the world and life pretty much destroys any chance of evolution ever entering the Zelda universe. There is no reason to have evolution, because life was created supernaturally. The gods are what keeps life in Hyrule alive and in balance. There is simply no need to evolve.

Also, most people who believe the world was created supernaturally by a diety reject evolution. Zelda takes the side of supernatural creation, and because of that I think its taking the stance that evolution is impossible. Atleast in the Zelda universe.

The only reason to have evolution is to explain where life came from.

That's never what evolution have meant at all.

http://en.wikipedia....istic_Evolution Also, read this, and educate yourself. Your continued ignorance is hurting my head.

[wring]

Well, I don't think anybody would argue that the Goddesses creating the world was actually a metaphor for evolution, so that's off topic.

[MikePetersSucks]

No one's saying it is. Just because evolution exists in a world doesn't mean a deity didn't create the world and vice versa. Evolution isn't the origin of the universe, or even the origin of LIFE! It's just how life changes over the years.

[CID Farwin]

No one's saying it is. Just because evolution exists in a world doesn't mean a deity didn't create the world and vice versa. Evolution isn't the origin of the universe, or even the origin of LIFE! It's just how life changes over the years.

*Applause*

Now, on topic, considering the fact that fish-people turn into bird-people, I don't find it so far fetched myself that the various races become more human.

But, that's not necessary, seeing as how they're spiritual bloodlines anyway...

[wring]

We don't even know if DNA exsists in Hyrule. This is the same series where you can cure disease by sucking up a ghost, or by mixing a magic potion. And the basic elements are Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth.

Evolution is just so far out of place in the Legend of Zelda, by no stretch of the imagination could you put it in.

Zelda doesn't fit to modern science. It fits the ancient philosophies. Which is why we have the four elements in Minish Cap. The Minish were a reference to elves. The different races are ment to mimic ancient legends about unusual races of men. The closest thing to a reference to modern science is time travel which wasn't thought of til fairly recently, and was more of a gameplay mechanic then anything. (Multiple Universes was thought of in some areas during ancient times.)

There is some evolution in ancient times, it was more like mixing dust and wheat and wait a few days and it will turn into a mouse, and I don't think it was very wide spread. that kind of thing I could see in Zelda, but whatever animal evolving into a new species would be far too out of place in a series trying to mimic ancient legends.

[MikePetersSucks]

We don't even know if DNA exsists in Hyrule. This is the same series where you can cure disease by sucking up a ghost, or by mixing a magic potion. And the basic elements are Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth.

So? None of that is any reason to doubt the existence of DNA, especially since no alternative is provided, and the existence of the four spiritual elements doesn't mean that the atomic elements don't exist. Though magic and symbolism are prevalent, there's no legitimate reason to doubt the existence of secular phenomena. If anything, the existence of Nayru's law would imply otherwise unless some magical intervention is provided.

Evolution is just so far out of place in the Legend of Zelda, by no stretch of the imagination could you put it in.

The blood of the Hylians can thin. Evolution exists.

There is some evolution in ancient times, it was more like mixing dust and wheat and wait a few days and it will turn into a mouse, and I don't think it was very wide spread. that kind of thing I could see in Zelda, but whatever animal evolving into a new species would be far too out of place in a series trying to mimic ancient legends.

1) The example you provided is Spontaneous Generation, which is an entirely different concept.
2) Evolution isn't just "one species turning into another", it's just the changing of life-forms over time, no matter how significant or drastic. Races in Hyrule do subtly change, by both the Hylian example and by the fact that there's both fresh-water and salt-water Zora.

[Raien]

The blood of the Hylians can thin. Evolution exists.

The blood-thinning could be brought about by a magical decline, as it is the magical powers and connection to the gods that actually change.

[MikePetersSucks]

The blood-thinning could be brought about by a magical decline, as it is the magical powers and connection to the gods that actually change.

The context implies it's due to being bred-out. There's no real reason or evidence to suggest that the magic is just waning for the lulz.

[Raien]

The context implies it's due to being bred-out.

There are no implications at all that the Hylians were breeding with another race of humans, let alone that this invisible breeding was causing their decline. As I see it, you're assuming it must have been bred-out because you currently won't accept magical alternatives.

There's no real reason or evidence to suggest that the magic is just waning for the lulz.

Not everything needs a proper reason to be symbolic; there was no good reason why Tony Stark's weak heart (love Iron Man) should hold out over Obadiah Stane's stronger heart, but it was clearly a symbol for love conquers all. I already provided the hypothesis that the Hylian blood was stagnating due to a lack of change in Hyrule. Another possibility is that because the Hylians' descendants forgot their history and connection to the gods in ALttP, this was symbolically applied to their magical connection with the gods.

Maybe there is no evidence to suggest a magical explanation, but that just puts it on an even footing with the breeding explanation. To say "The Hylians declined, which proves evolution exists." is hogwash.

Edited by Raian, 30 October 2008 - 07:26 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

There are no implications at all that the Hylians were breeding with another race of humans, let alone that this invisible breeding was causing their decline. As I see it, you're assuming it must have been bred-out because you currently won't accept magical alternatives.

I can accept magical alternatives, but the shortening of the ears implies it's not as magical as one would think. Perhaps all the Gerudo picking up Hylian men in town started to have an effect on their population, or something.

Not everything needs a proper reason to be symbolic; there was no good reason why Tony Stark's weak heart (love Iron Man) should hold out over Obadiah Stane's stronger heart, but it was clearly a symbol for love conquers all.

You're right, but I don't see any relevant symbolism here.

I already provided the hypothesis that the Hylian blood was stagnating due to a lack of change in Hyrule.

TWW kinda throws a wrench in that one.

Another possibility is that because the Hylians' descendants forgot their history and connection to the gods in ALttP, this was symbolically applied to their magical connection with the gods.

Their history doesn't seem very forgotten in LTTP., but even so, it would just take the gods speaking to someone still connected, like Zelda, and get her to re-enlighten the people. Problem solved. Plus, if the ears are shortening, this implies that people are being born this way, cutting through the "forgotten history" thing and getting into the iffy "Original Sin"-ish type of territory.

Maybe there is no evidence to suggest a magical explanation, but that just puts it on an even footing with the breeding explanation. To say "The Hylians declined, which proves evolution exists." is hogwash.

No, it isn't. Occam's Razor would definitely apply. Hylians HAVE been breeding outside their race, this has been observed. It's a total leap in logic to think that this didn't effect them at all, but their magic just randomly started waning. Even if it was magical decline, the traits of the Hylian population are still changing over the generations, fitting the definition of evolution in the context of a fictional world.

[Raien]

I can accept magical alternatives, but the shortening of the ears implies it's not as magical as one would think.

The only significance of the long ears is that they are visual representations of the magical ability to hear the voices of the gods. The decline of this magical ability would thus be depicted as a shortening of the ears.

Perhaps all the Gerudo picking up Hylian men in town started to have an effect on their population, or something.

It's evident from OoT that the offspring of Gerudo-Hylians are Gerudo women, due to the clear absence of mixed-races. The inter-breeding shouldn't really have any effect on the Hylian population, and if we look centuries down the line in TP, we can see it doesn't. If anything, it was the Gerudo who died out, not the Hylians.

TWW kinda throws a wrench in that one.

TWW's change didn't really benefit the Hylians though, just like the change brought about by Ganondorf's reign over Hyrule wouldn't benefit them. What separates the "worthy" from everyone else is the ability to keep the Hylian population thriving, not to undermine them or even destroy them.

No, it isn't. Occam's Razor would definitely apply. Hylians HAVE been breeding outside their race, this has been observed. It's a total leap in logic to think that this didn't effect them at all, but their magic just randomly started waning. Even if it was magical decline, the traits of the Hylian population are still changing over the generations, fitting the definition of evolution in the context of a fictional world.

It's really annoying when people pass things off as "random" because they don't immediately understand it. I am not arguing that the Hylians declined for no reason, nor by chance, so please stop suggesting that the debate is taking place on those lines, because it isn't.

Your point about Hylians inter-breeding with Gerudo is null because there is no evidence that it affected the Hylian population.
Your point about the Hylian population physically changing over the generations is null because the only evidence of physical change is the shortening of the ears, which represents a purely magical function.
You cannot claim to follow Occam's Razor and assert that there is any evidence the decline of the Hylians resulted from inter-breeding.

[wring]

I think the shortening of the ears happened because regular humans moved in and took over hyrule. The Hylian population just shrunk, as it was being replaced with regular people.

As for them loosing their magic, just like the Sage's seal was growing weaker over time, the Hylian's magic also grew weaker over time. And there are certian things that would've been lost to history such as spells.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's evident from OoT that the offspring of Gerudo-Hylians are Gerudo women, due to the clear absence of mixed-races. The inter-breeding shouldn't really have any effect on the Hylian population, and if we look centuries down the line in TP, we can see it doesn't. If anything, it was the Gerudo who died out, not the Hylians.

Absence of mixed-races does not equate to a lack of genetic influence. Biology does not work that way. Either way, there's plenty of non-Hylian humanoids to copulate with.

TWW's change didn't really benefit the Hylians though, just like the change brought about by Ganondorf's reign over Hyrule wouldn't benefit them. What separates the "worthy" from everyone else is the ability to keep the Hylian population thriving, not to undermine them or even destroy them.

Neither of us said anything about the change needing to be beneficial, don't backpedal.

It's really annoying when people pass things off as "random" because they don't immediately understand it. I am not arguing that the Hylians declined for no reason, nor by chance, so please stop suggesting that the debate is taking place on those lines, because it isn't.

There's no reasoning provided whatsoever for the magic to just decline, so until one is provided, it IS random.

Your point about Hylians inter-breeding with Gerudo is null because there is no evidence that it affected the Hylian population.
Your point about the Hylian population physically changing over the generations is null because the only evidence of physical change is the shortening of the ears, which represents a purely magical function.
You cannot claim to follow Occam's Razor and assert that there is any evidence the decline of the Hylians resulted from inter-breeding.

"Thinning of Hylian blood" wouldn't happen if there wasn't non-Hylian blood diluting it, unless the Hylian blood is just magically turning into "human" (for lack of a better word) blood for the lulz. Either way, there's a genetic change that would imply some form of evolution.

As for them loosing their magic, just like the Sage's seal was growing weaker over time, the Hylian's magic also grew weaker over time. And there are certian things that would've been lost to history such as spells.

The Sage's seal was growing weaker because Agahnim was sacrificing Maidens, the magic of the Hylians weren't related.

[Raien]

Absence of mixed-races does not equate to a lack of genetic influence. Biology does not work that way. Either way, there's plenty of non-Hylian humanoids to copulate with.

The absence of mixed-races establishes that there is a lack of evidence for the theory of inter-breeding. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you have no real proof.

Neither of us said anything about the change needing to be beneficial, don't backpedal.

I thought it was assumed that the change would have to be beneficial. Leaving food in a fridge for too long will cause it to go mouldy, but taking the food out of the fridge isn't going to prevent that mould growing. Why should change, regardless of context and meaning, always result in the Hylians maintaining their powers?

There's no reasoning provided whatsoever for the magic to just decline, so until one is provided, it IS random.

There is a difference between "no reason" and "unknown reason". If the hypothesis asserts that the magic declined for unknown reasons, then it does not take randomness into account. What you are doing is belittling my argument by asserting that I am resorting to mere chance, which is not constructive criticism. Imagine if I argued that the blood randomly thinned because there is no reason or evidence for inter-breeding. It just doesn't achieve anything.

"Thinning of Hylian blood" wouldn't happen if there wasn't non-Hylian blood diluting it, unless the Hylian blood is just magically turning into "human" (for lack of a better word) blood for the lulz. Either way, there's a genetic change that would imply some form of evolution.

The magical and physical are inter-related, hence the long ears are related to hearing the voices of the gods. But if a decline in the blood can lead to a decline in the magic, then why cannot a decline in the magic lead to a decline in the blood? If the magic thins, then surely the blood would thin as well.

Edited by Raian, 30 October 2008 - 10:02 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The absence of mixed-races establishes that there is a lack of evidence for the theory of inter-breeding. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you have no real proof.

On what grounds can we legitimately say there's no mixed-races? Especially since interbreeding doesn't technically make mixed-races anyway? Not to mention that you're denying my example a priori of your own conclusion. "Subject A can't be a mixed-race because there are no mixed-races."

I thought it was assumed that the change would have to be beneficial. Leaving food in a fridge for too long will cause it to go mouldy, but taking the food out of the fridge isn't going to prevent that mould growing. Why should change, regardless of context and meaning, always result in the Hylians maintaining their powers?

I agree with the last clause. Hell, why does the magic of the Hylians, or whatever, have to correlate with the state of Hyrule at all? They're not Fisher Kings.

There is a difference between "no reason" and "unknown reason". If the hypothesis asserts that the magic declined for unknown reasons, then it does not take randomness into account. What you are doing is belittling my argument by asserting that I am resorting to mere chance, which is not constructive criticism. Imagine if I argued that the blood randomly thinned because there is no reason or evidence for inter-breeding. It just doesn't achieve anything.

No reasoning whatsoever is brought forth, not even "an unknown Blank." It's not like fantasy races getting it on with each other is anything new for the genre, and the Gerudo and Ruto herself imply that it happens more than we might think. And, if you believe in that sort of thing, the Zora's potential evolution, and almost DEFINITELY the Twili are support for my end.

The magical and physical are inter-related, hence the long ears are related to hearing the voices of the gods. But if a decline in the blood can lead to a decline in the magic, then why cannot a decline in the magic lead to a decline in the blood? If the magic thins, then surely the blood would thin as well.

That's silly. A loss of magic would result in the lack of the blood's potency, but it wouldn't just grab-bag switch genes and characteristics, and there's still no viable reason for the magic to decline at all. It's extremely obvious, given LTTP's place in the mythology and series developmental history, that they're referring to actual ethnic lineage.

[Raien]

On what grounds can we legitimately say there's no mixed-races? Especially since interbreeding doesn't technically make mixed-races anyway? Not to mention that you're denying my example a priori of your own conclusion. "Subject A can't be a mixed-race because there are no mixed-races."

Your argument is like Lex's current argument about the Trident. You're asking me to establish that inter-breeding does not affect the Hylian population, when it is your burden to establish that it does.

I agree with the last clause. Hell, why does the magic of the Hylians, or whatever, have to correlate with the state of Hyrule at all? They're not Fisher Kings.

The connection between land and people has been known to be magical as well as physical, such as the Zoras and the Twili. The Hylians may or may not be magically connected to the land, but I would say the evidence in other races allow suitable comparison to ground the hypothesis.

And, if you believe in that sort of thing, the Zora's potential evolution, and almost DEFINITELY the Twili are support for my end.

Wasn't Ganondorf shown to be using Twili magic at the end of TP? Weren't the Twili reacting to the magical Light and Twilight? I would say the physical change to the Twili was brought about by magic, as was Ganondorf, which is what I'm arguing takes place with the Hylians.

That's silly. A loss of magic would result in the lack of the blood's potency, but it wouldn't just grab-bag switch genes and characteristics, and there's still no viable reason for the magic to decline at all. It's extremely obvious, given LTTP's place in the mythology and series developmental history, that they're referring to actual ethnic lineage.

I would argue that given the mythological context, it was obvious that ALttP wouldn't involve invisible processes, such as genetics, in its story. And now that I consider it, the term "blood-thinning" doesn't even have an established meaning with relation to genetics. For a pure-blood race to become mixed-race is not recognised anywhere as "blood-thinning", so the term could in fact refer to a lack of potency in the blood.

Edited by Raian, 31 October 2008 - 08:28 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

You're asking me to establish that inter-breeding does not affect the Hylian population, when it is your burden to establish that it does.

The Hylian blood has thinned; provide an explanation for this that does not include interbreeding of some sort that has some grounding in evidence.

Wasn't Ganondorf shown to be using Twili magic at the end of TP?

Not necessarily. For all we know those could have been a revised depiction of dark magic.

the term "blood-thinning" doesn't even have an established meaning with relation to genetics.

Or magic.

It's not a matter of genetics per se, it's a matter of racial purity. I'm not full-blooded Polish, but I am predominantly Polish. My fiancée is fully Italian. Our children will be even less Polish than me and much less Italian than her. These things have impacts on ancient societies, including Hylian ones.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 31 October 2008 - 01:07 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Your argument is like Lex's current argument about the Trident. You're asking me to establish that inter-breeding does not affect the Hylian population, when it is your burden to establish that it does.

I've already presented a fair amount of evidence, and you're disregarding it because "Hyrule is symbolic."

The connection between land and people has been known to be magical as well as physical, such as the Zoras and the Twili.

Elaborate.

I would argue that given the mythological context, it was obvious that ALttP wouldn't involve invisible processes, such as genetics, in its story. And now that I consider it, the term "blood-thinning" doesn't even have an established meaning with relation to genetics. For a pure-blood race to become mixed-race is not recognised anywhere as "blood-thinning", so the term could in fact refer to a lack of potency in the blood.

The effects of genetics can be seen even in a fantasy story. People from the mythological era realized that traits of the parents were carried on to the children, and apparently they also realized that if they didn't want a trait to disappear, you shouldn't bread with people who don't have it. That's pretty much what caused royal inbreeding.

[wring]

Interbreeding doesn't necesarily mean evolution anyways. Even in ancient times they knew that children inherited the traits of their parents. Besides, there was interbreeding in ancient times between different races.

My arguement is that ideas that are purely modern shouldn't appear in the Zelda universe which is mostly baised on mythology. DNA shouldn't appear in Zelda because people didn't know about DNA until recently. But they knew about the effects of DNA, so I don't mind if the effects of DNA are shown in Zelda as long as DNA itself isn't. But I wouldn't mind if an atom appeared in Zelda, as long as it was the mythological atom predicted by the ancient Greeks, or something similar with a Zelda twist.

[MikePetersSucks]

Interbreeding doesn't necesarily mean evolution anyways. Even in ancient times they knew that children inherited the traits of their parents. Besides, there was interbreeding in ancient times between different races.

Any change to a genome whatsoever, no matter how big, small, beneficial, harmful, relevant, or not is a form of evolution. Evolution applies once you have a change in alleles, which happens with every new generation, no matter how minimal. Don't f*cking judge what qualifies for evolution if you don't understand the goddamned theory.

My arguement is that ideas that are purely modern shouldn't appear in the Zelda universe which is mostly baised on mythology. DNA shouldn't appear in Zelda because people didn't know about DNA until recently. But they knew about the effects of DNA, so I don't mind if the effects of DNA are shown in Zelda as long as DNA itself isn't. But I wouldn't mind if an atom appeared in Zelda, as long as it was the mythological atom predicted by the ancient Greeks, or something similar with a Zelda twist.

Nayru says no. She put down the laws of the world down, so if she wants DNA and atoms, that's what we have. Zelda has shown technology and scientific knowledge going all the way up to the steampunk era, and (depending on your theory about stuff like the Tower of the Gods), technology more advanced than what we have in the real world. You can't just disregard science just because it doesn't fit your view of what Zelda should be.

[Raien]

I've already presented a fair amount of evidence, and you're disregarding it because "Hyrule is symbolic."

You haven't presented a fair amount of evidence. The one example of inter-breeding you provided was with the Gerudo in OoT, but this was established as the means by which the Gerudo were keeping their tribe alive. Since the Gerudo only give birth to women, the Gerudo tribe we see in OoT are clearly the products of Hylian inter-breeding. So how can the Gerudo traits be integrated into the Hylian blood when the Gerudo don't even pass Hylian traits to their children? Or are you arguing that the Gerudo in OoT possess the Hylians' magical powers? But then how do they pass those traits to the Hylians when they separate themselves as a tribe?

There are too many complications (and it requires too many assumptions) to give this example any real credibility, and with this being the only example of inter-breeding between Hylians and other races, I really don't see how you can claim this to be suitable proof for the theory as a whole.

Elaborate.

The loss of Hyrule's Light magic transformed Hyrule's denizens into spirits. The loss of the Twilight Realm's Twilight magic transformed the Twili into shadow beasts. Midna asserted that the Dark Tribe's transformation into Twili was brought about by the Twilight magic. Ganondorf was shown to wield magic akin to the Twili, which implies that he was also changed by the magic of the Twilight Realm.

There is a general implication that everything physical has a magical essence at its core that controls it. All living things have spirits, the elements have magical essences, the entire world has the Triforce to maintain it from the Sacred Realm. And just as different things in the physical world are connected, the magical essences are also connected. The Sages temples in OoT and TWW established a connection between the races sharing an affinity with the physical elements and their magical essences.

In all of this, Hyrule represents a magical culmination of everything the goddesses’ made. It is a holy land, and the Hylians are a divine people. The kingdom and people are connected magically in the same way that the Zoras are connected to waterways and the Gorons are connected to the mountains. As nothing occurs to keep that magic thriving, it declines.

The effects of genetics can be seen even in a fantasy story. People from the mythological era realized that traits of the parents were carried on to the children, and apparently they also realized that if they didn't want a trait to disappear, you shouldn't bread with people who don't have it. That's pretty much what caused royal inbreeding.

This is true, but it still doesn't establish that the term "blood-thinning" is related to inter-breeding. Considering that the magical abilities of the Hylians are affected more prominently by the "blood-thinning" than their physical appearance, I see no reason to believe that magic shouldn't be the cause.

Any change to a genome whatsoever, no matter how big, small, beneficial, harmful, relevant, or not is a form of evolution. Evolution applies once you have a change in alleles, which happens with every new generation, no matter how minimal. Don't f*cking judge what qualifies for evolution if you don't understand the goddamned theory.

If we’re going into detail on evolution, may I ask how it applies to humans in the first place? As I understand it, animals evolve when a mutated individual outlives and out-breeds its rivals. For example, rabbits used to have short ears, but a long-eared mutation was better able to sense and hide from predators. All the long-eared descendants shared this same advantage, which allowed them to overtake the original short-eared population. But humans have replaced mutation with knowledge. We don’t need to evolve fur in cold conditions; we can just make shelter and fire. So if a human was to mutate, then it is almost impossible that the mutation would extend beyond close family.

Zelda has shown technology and scientific knowledge going all the way up to the steampunk era, and (depending on your theory about stuff like the Tower of the Gods), technology more advanced than what we have in the real world.

The Zelda mythos is connecting man to machines in the loosest possible sense, in most cases using magic to replace the invisible processes that normally occur in science (the best example being the magical machines in the Tower of the Gods). As I pointed out earlier, there is a general implication that the physical world has a magical essence at the core that controls it. If the world is inherently magical, then how can it be effectively argued that magic does not have any relevance in defining the invisible processes?

Edited by Raian, 01 November 2008 - 08:48 AM.

[wring]

Interbreeding doesn't necesarily mean evolution anyways. Even in ancient times they knew that children inherited the traits of their parents. Besides, there was interbreeding in ancient times between different races.

Any change to a genome whatsoever, no matter how big, small, beneficial, harmful, relevant, or not is a form of evolution. Evolution applies once you have a change in alleles, which happens with every new generation, no matter how minimal. Don't f*cking judge what qualifies for evolution if you don't understand the goddamned theory.

So because Hylians reproduce that means they MUST fit the theory of evolution exactly. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

[MikePetersSucks]

You haven't presented a fair amount of evidence. The one example of inter-breeding you provided was with the Gerudo in OoT

And it's implied that Hylians and Zora might be able to. And I wouldn't doubt Hylians and Sheikah mix. There's probably more.

but this was established as the means by which the Gerudo were keeping their tribe alive. Since the Gerudo only give birth to women, the Gerudo tribe we see in OoT are clearly the products of Hylian inter-breeding. So how can the Gerudo traits be integrated into the Hylian blood when the Gerudo don't even pass Hylian traits to their children?

All it would take is one Gerudo male gettin' down with Hylian women, or something.

Or are you arguing that the Gerudo in OoT possess the Hylians' magical powers? But then how do they pass those traits to the Hylians when they separate themselves as a tribe?

You know I'm not arguing any such thing.

The loss of Hyrule's Light magic transformed Hyrule's denizens into spirits. The loss of the Twilight Realm's Twilight magic transformed the Twili into shadow beasts. Midna asserted that the Dark Tribe's transformation into Twili was brought about by the Twilight magic. Ganondorf was shown to wield magic akin to the Twili, which implies that he was also changed by the magic of the Twilight Realm.

I always figured that the first example was because Light-based beings don't mix with Shadow, and that the Shadow Beasts were a direct result of a CURSE, instead of a loss of magic. Ganondorf doesn't use magic in any instance, and even if he did, he could've simply stolen it or something.

There is a general implication that everything physical has a magical essence at its core that controls it. All living things have spirits, the elements have magical essences, the entire world has the Triforce to maintain it from the Sacred Realm. And just as different things in the physical world are connected, the magical essences are also connected. The Sages temples in OoT and TWW established a connection between the races sharing an affinity with the physical elements and their magical essences.

In all of this, Hyrule represents a magical culmination of everything the goddesses’ made. It is a holy land, and the Hylians are a divine people. The kingdom and people are connected magically in the same way that the Zoras are connected to waterways and the Gorons are connected to the mountains. As nothing occurs to keep that magic thriving, it declines.

Fair enough, but why would things need to keep changing to keep the magic thriving? I mean, it's not like the country is DYING, so why should the magic decline?

f we’re going into detail on evolution, may I ask how it applies to humans in the first place? As I understand it, animals evolve when a mutated individual outlives and out-breeds its rivals. For example, rabbits used to have short ears, but a long-eared mutation was better able to sense and hide from predators. All the long-eared descendants shared this same advantage, which allowed them to overtake the original short-eared population. But humans have replaced mutation with knowledge. We don’t need to evolve fur in cold conditions; we can just make shelter and fire. So if a human was to mutate, then it is almost impossible that the mutation would extend beyond close family.

Humans still mutate all the time, and if they get a chance to breed and pass them on, then there you go. The thing is that with our society, we don't need to play by some of evolution's rules. For example, a blind person would not usually breed, but in civilization, it's possible. If that blindness is genetic, then the gene for blindness is passed on. Or hell, just bad eyesight. Not a favorable trait, but with glasses, no one really brings it in as a factor when choosing a mate. This is probably why almost all humans the world over end up needing some sort of optical correction. We've never stopped mutating, we've just rendered most of the implications moots since just about any flaw in our genes can be compensated for with our technology.

The Zelda mythos is connecting man to machines in the loosest possible sense, in most cases using magic to replace the invisible processes that normally occur in science (the best example being the magical machines in the Tower of the Gods). As I pointed out earlier, there is a general implication that the physical world has a magical essence at the core that controls it. If the world is inherently magical, then how can it be effectively argued that magic does not have any relevance in defining the invisible processes?

I never said they didn't have an involvement in the invisible processes, but that doesn't mean the more secular elements don't coexist. Why can't we have a genome that has a gene for Hylian magic? I also remember a really amazing post where someone charted out how it'd be genetically possible for a female-only species to have one male a century.

So because Hylians reproduce that means they MUST fit the theory of evolution exactly. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

Did I SAY they have to fit the theory exactly? No I did not. If you're not going to read my words and properly understand them, shut the hell up and don't respond to them.

[Raien]

And it's implied that Hylians and Zora might be able to. And I wouldn't doubt Hylians and Sheikah mix. There's probably more.

There's still no proof, which is what I'm asking for. Ruto's childhood ideals of marriage do not relate to a general culture of inter-breeding between Hylians and Zoras.

All it would take is one Gerudo male gettin' down with Hylian women, or something.

This is a farfetched idea with no proof.

I always figured that the first example was because Light-based beings don't mix with Shadow, and that the Shadow Beasts were a direct result of a CURSE, instead of a loss of magic. Ganondorf doesn't use magic in any instance, and even if he did, he could've simply stolen it or something.

For the first point, this is still an example of the magical affecting the physical.
For the second point, Midna specifically stated that the loss of the Sols caused the Twili to transform into Shadow Beasts.
For the third point, Ganondorf created the portals and black squares that the Twili use, and Midna stated that the power of the Sols were needed to deflect Ganondorf's magic, which has never happened in any other game. It's clear that he has developed Twili powers from his stay in the realm.

Fair enough, but why would things need to keep changing to keep the magic thriving? I mean, it's not like the country is DYING, so why should the magic decline?

It's symbolic. The principle is that too much order leads to stagnation, and the decline of magic represents that stagnation.

Humans still mutate all the time, and if they get a chance to breed and pass them on, then there you go. The thing is that with our society, we don't need to play by some of evolution's rules. For example, a blind person would not usually breed, but in civilization, it's possible. If that blindness is genetic, then the gene for blindness is passed on. Or hell, just bad eyesight. Not a favorable trait, but with glasses, no one really brings it in as a factor when choosing a mate. This is probably why almost all humans the world over end up needing some sort of optical correction. We've never stopped mutating, we've just rendered most of the implications moots since just about any flaw in our genes can be compensated for with our technology.

Humans mutate like animals do, but because knowledge has replaced the need for mutation in the development of the species, it is practically impossible for one mutated gene to take over an entire population of people. If an animal is born with special strength and agility, its' superior survival skills allow the gene to survive and spread. If a human is born with special strength and agility, it will never give him/her an advantage over someone with a man-made weapon. Social constraints in humans do not favour a mutated gene any more than anyone else either.

I never said they didn't have an involvement in the invisible processes, but that doesn't mean the more secular elements don't coexist. Why can't we have a genome that has a gene for Hylian magic?

Magic is what connects the real world to the divine, magic is core to everything that is physical; earth, water, fire, living things. Spirits are representative of a connection to the divine; they are magical. But spirits don't have genes; the spiritual relationship between families and bloodlines don't involve genes. Spirits and magic go beyond the gene pool; they are not defined or constrained by anything in the physical world. In other words, magic cannot be treated as something physical and scientific, because magic symbolises everything that is not constrained by the laws of the physical world.

[Hero of Legend]

Ruto's childhood ideals of marriage do not relate to a general culture of inter-breeding between Hylians and Zoras.

Eh, we do know there are other Zoras that feel the same way, given how one of them hangs out by the pirate fortress in MM.

Midna specifically stated that the loss of the Sols caused the Twili to transform into Shadow Beasts.

Well, she also said it was Zant's power that transformed them into monsters.

Ganondorf created the portals and black squares that the Twili use, and Midna stated that the power of the Sols were needed to deflect Ganondorf's magic, which has never happened in any other game. It's clear that he has developed Twili powers from his stay in the realm.

Actually, Ganondorf said that he drew his power from the Twili, so I'm going to assume that's why he has their powers.

It's symbolic. The principle is that too much order leads to stagnation, and the decline of magic represents that stagnation.

That's actually partially true if you look at TP. The people are complacent and the land is falling into ruins.

In other words, magic cannot be treated as something physical and scientific, because magic symbolises everything that is not constrained by the laws of the physical world.

Actually it's very common for characters in fantasy settings to treat magic like science - alchemists, for example.

And about this debate, I still don't buy Raians symbolism, but I don't see the need for actual DNA in Hyrule either. It is plain as day that the Hylian blood was thinned by interbreeding with other humans, but that could still work without genetics as such.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 November 2008 - 05:56 PM.

[Raien]

Eh, we do know there are other Zoras that feel the same way, given how one of them hangs out by the pirate fortress in MM.

I personally don't think MM was treated with the same level of seriousness as OoT or ALttP, so far as the mythology is concerned. Things like the aliens abducting cows and the Zora music group make me find it hard to interpret events in MM as canon in the mainstream Zelda universe. That's why I never participate in MM discussions.

Well, she also said it was Zant's power that transformed them into monsters.

Zant's power stole the Sols, or it could be a mix of both. Never mind, it doesn't really affect the point that I was making.

Actually, Ganondorf said that he drew his power from the Twili, so I'm going to assume that's why he has their powers.

Good idea.

That's actually true if you look at TP. The people are complacent and the land is falling into ruins - that's why they needed Ganondorf to shake things up a bit.

Perhaps. It was the goddesses who ultimately instigated the change, so we would have to assume this was their intention.

Actually it's very common for characters in fantasy settings to treat magic like science - alchemists, for example.

That's a very interesting example, but it still doesn't mean magic is constrained by physical laws. Magic has magical laws, which naturally operate differently and with relation to symbolism.

Edited by Raian, 01 November 2008 - 06:09 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

There's still no proof, which is what I'm asking for. Ruto's childhood ideals of marriage do not relate to a general culture of inter-breeding between Hylians and Zoras.

The Hylians and Gerudo prove that interbreeding does happen. It's foolish to assume they're the only race to do so, ever.

This is a farfetched idea with no proof.

No proof, sure, but farfetched? It's no more farfetched than Gerudo females reproducing with Hylian males, what's so "out there" about a gender switch?

For the first point, this is still an example of the magical affecting the physical.
For the second point, Midna specifically stated that the loss of the Sols caused the Twili to transform into Shadow Beasts.
For the third point, Ganondorf created the portals and black squares that the Twili use, and Midna stated that the power of the Sols were needed to deflect Ganondorf's magic, which has never happened in any other game. It's clear that he has developed Twili powers from his stay in the realm.

The first point I was disregarding as necessarily being the land effecting the individual.
The Second Point, she actually said the lose of the Sols is what caused the Twilight Realm to shoot all up to hell, and the Sols can break Zant's curse.
Third, no he did not, he only gave Zant the ability to do so. The Sols were needed in any other scenario because that was the only one involving the Twilight Realm. After all, you kick Ganon's ass damn well enough without them, and the Master Sword can dispel the curse just as well.

It's symbolic. The principle is that too much order leads to stagnation, and the decline of magic represents that stagnation.

That would be against the principles of order and stagnation. Otherwise magic would refuse to change for the better or worse.

Humans mutate like animals do, but because knowledge has replaced the need for mutation in the development of the species, it is practically impossible for one mutated gene to take over an entire population of people. If an animal is born with special strength and agility, its' superior survival skills allow the gene to survive and spread. If a human is born with special strength and agility, it will never give him/her an advantage over someone with a man-made weapon. Social constraints in humans do not favour a mutated gene any more than anyone else either.

We're basically agreeing with each other.

Magic is what connects the real world to the divine, magic is core to everything that is physical; earth, water, fire, living things. Spirits are representative of a connection to the divine; they are magical. But spirits don't have genes; the spiritual relationship between families and bloodlines don't involve genes. Spirits and magic go beyond the gene pool; they are not defined or constrained by anything in the physical world. In other words, magic cannot be treated as something physical and scientific, because magic symbolises everything that is not constrained by the laws of the physical world.

I appreciate your imposing your not-at-all-universal definitions of spirits and magic on the Zelda series.

Actually it's very common for characters in fantasy settings to treat magic like science - alchemists, for example.

And about this debate, I still don't buy Raians symbolism, but I don't see the need for actual DNA in Hyrule either. It is plain as day that the Hylian blood was thinned by interbreeding with other humans, but that could still work without genetics as such.

It doesn't need to be DNA, but it has to be some kind of analog. I personally find Raian's symbolism to be total and complete bunk, as it gets dangerously close to "Goddidit" territory.

I personally don't think MM was treated with the same level of seriousness as OoT or ALttP, so far as the mythology is concerned. Things like the aliens abducting cows and the Zora music group make me find it hard to interpret events in MM as canon in the mainstream Zelda universe. That's why I never participate in MM discussions.

How convenient.

That's a very interesting example, but it still doesn't mean magic is constrained by physical laws. Magic has magical laws, which naturally operate differently and with relation to symbolism.

The general idea is that Magic, while being above physical law, has to follow metaphysical law.

[Raien]

The Hylians and Gerudo prove that interbreeding does happen. It's foolish to assume they're the only race to do so, ever.

The Gerudo are forced into a unique situation by their inability to produce males; they must actively seek out Hylian males to mate with or else their tribe dies. There is no indication here that the Gerudo or the Hylians are part of a culture of casual inter-breeding for reasons other than to keep the Gerudo tribe alive. There is no indication that the Gerudo maintain relationships with Hylians before or after their babies are born. There is no indication that the Gerudo babies form any part of Hylian society, which would allow them to affect the Hylian population. And most importantly, there is no indication that any of these points occur for other races in Hyrule.

In short, you take the simple fact that Gerudo rely on inter-breeding to keep their tribe alive, and you build on top of that with a lot of baseless assumptions to suit your theory. Unless you have anything more concrete to justify your theory, then I have nothing more to say on the subject.

That would be against the principles of order and stagnation. Otherwise magic would refuse to change for the better or worse.

So you are arguing that because stagnation is itself a form of change, stagnation cannot be visibly represented by the decline of magic? How can be the principles of order and stagnation be upheld if stagnation cannot by definition be seen to occur?

I appreciate you imposing your not-at-all-universal definitions of spirits and magic on the Zelda series.

I never provided any specific definitions of spirits and magic, but I am stating that spirits and magic exist for people to explain the nature of our existence, and that they thus operate beyond physical laws. The fact that everything physical in the Zelda universe has a magical essence demonstrates this clearly.

How convenient.

It's called context. Majora's Mask takes place in another dimension, in which the characters are given different identities than in Hyrule. The Gerudo are no longer thieves, but pirates. The Deku now have a royal family, the Zoras all enjoy a modern rock music group. I don't think that what applies in Termina applies to Hyrule because Termina is not meant to be a reflection of Hyrule.

The general idea is that Magic, while being above physical law, has to follow metaphysical law.

Could you elaborate please? Metaphysics is a form of philosophy, not science, and I cannot find any defined metaphysical laws on the internet that relate to this debate.

Edited by Raian, 01 November 2008 - 09:30 PM.

[Arturo]

*Reads the genetics debate*
*Grumbles nonsense about Hardy-Weinberg's Principle*

And Goddidit.

[Raien]

*Reads the genetics debate*
*Grumbles nonsense about Hardy-Weinberg's Principle*

And Goddidit.

As much as I would like to support a principle that agrees with me, I think we go way off-target when we start involving complicated science in a children's story. "Goddidit" should be based on the fact that magic is what myths have always used to explain our existence in face of the divine.