91 replies to this topic

[wring]

Ok I have a great theory about Zelda and Ezlo. Zelda is the seventh Sage from OoT, but she is never given an element. Some people believe she's the Sage of Time because the Temple of Time is without a Sage, plus she has the Ocarina of Time at the start of the game, and she sends Link back in time at the end of the game.

But what about Ezlo the Sage from the Minish Cap. He's never given an element either. Well I was thinking about it, and I think I got one. He could be the Sage of Ice! I got this because in Four Sword Adventure theirs a Temple of Ice, without a Sage. The Minish Cap is closely related to Four Sword Adventure storywise. So I figure it'd make sense if the Temple of Ice is his temple.

Another theory about the Sages from Twilight Princess. I haven't played the game yet, but I know about them. Anyways, my thought is that they are the ancient Sages who built the temples from Ocarina of Time. Rauru is one of them, he just changed appearence for some reason, it could be like the Zoras changing appearence between games. I also thought maybe the Sages are ghosts, which would also explain the change in appearence. The 5 sages could've died before OoT, and Rauru shortly after since he's so old. Another theory is that the Sages are immortal, but died when Ganondorf attacked Hyrule, which never happened in the Child Timeline, so they are alive during TP.

And one final theory. I just read that a gossip stone says the owl in OoT Kaepora Gaebora is actually a reincarnation of an ancient Sage. The perfect canidate for this is Ezlo, he's ancient by the time of Ocarina, he's a Sage, and he has a bird head when he's in hat form. Plus he gives Link hints throughout the game.

Feel free to add any other theories about the Sages here.

[Raien]

Ezlo (and Vaati) came from a completely different dimension to Hyrule altogether, through the portal that opens once every hundred years. Don't be fooled by the Minish living in Hyrule; it was stated in Minish Cap that they are the descendants of immigrants from the Minish dimension. Ezlo has no relation to the Sages in Hyrule; he is just a wise man.

Edited by Raian, 15 October 2008 - 12:14 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ezlo is a different kind of sage. He's lowercase ("Tetsujin"), while Sages like the ones from OOT are uppercase ("Seijin"). The former refers to generally wise, old men who may be well-learned in magic but with no innate talent, while the latter refers to spiritually enlightened, mystically elevated beings that could qualify as demi-gods. Kaepora Gaebora is also a reincarnation of a Tetsujin, not a Seijin.

Also, not all Seijin have an elemental affiliation, and not all temples have a Seijin. Only the temples of TWW and OOT do because of their specific roles. FSA's Temple of Ice was a holding place for an artifact, not a node to the Sacred Realm.

[FDL]

I never knew that Kaepora Gaebora was a different kind of Sage than the Sages who are in most of the games. It's too bad there was nothing to differentiate it in the English version, then we wouldn't have a thousand people theorizing he's Rauru even though that didn't make sense anyway.

[wring]

Ok, so Ezlo's not the Ice Sage.

But that still adds to my theory the he gets reincarnated into the owl guy! The same sage word is used for both.

I don't really think Zelda is the Sage of Time, since I believe the Temple is named after the Hero of Time. She's probably elementless, too.

[Raien]

But that still adds to my theory the he gets reincarnated into the owl guy! The same sage word is used for both.

Sound logic.

Link is referred to as a man.
Ganondorf is referred to as a man.
Thus, Link and Ganondorf are the same person.

[wring]

But that still adds to my theory the he gets reincarnated into the owl guy! The same sage word is used for both.

Sound logic.

Link is referred to as a man.
Ganondorf is referred to as a man.
Thus, Link and Ganondorf are the same person.

1 there can't be that many sages.
2 they both play similar roles in the games
3 Ezlo has a bird head!

[Raien]

1 there can't be that many sages.

In fantasy, there can.

2 they both play similar roles in the games

As a hint system, yes. In terms of the actual story, no.

3 Ezlo has a bird head!

Because he was cursed.

[Showsni]

Maybe Kaepora Gaebora is Sahasrahla's reincarnation! They're both sages, and both have tricky names to spell!

[MikePetersSucks]

Kaepora Gaebora probably isn't the reincarnation of any character we've ever met. Seriously, do you REALLY think they created Ezlo with the intent of "This is the guy who turns into that owl"? It's f*cking stupid. And given how reincarnations in Zelda seem to work, he probably got his name from his sage lifetime. It's not like Mama Owl named him that.

Besides, any smart old (wo)man, magical or otherwise, counts as a Tetsujin.

[jacensolo06]

Ezlo is a different kind of sage. He's lowercase ("Tetsujin"), while Sages like the ones from OOT are uppercase ("Seijin"). The former refers to generally wise, old men who may be well-learned in magic but with no innate talent, while the latter refers to spiritually enlightened, mystically elevated beings that could qualify as demi-gods. Kaepora Gaebora is also a reincarnation of a Tetsujin, not a Seijin.

Actually, the Sages in OoT are Kenja (賢者) not Seijin (聖人). Seijin is found nowhere in the OoT text dump.
Also, Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of a Kenja, so he was the same kind as the OoT sages.

Here's the text:
ケポラ・ゲボラという怪鳥は、大昔の賢者のうまれかわりらしい

Which translates to:
The mysterious bird called Kaepora Gaebora seems to be a reincarnation of an ancient Kenja.

[Raien]

Actually, the Sages in OoT are Kenja (賢者) not Seijin (聖人). Seijin is found nowhere in the OoT text dump.
Also, Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of a Kenja, so he was the same kind as the OoT sages.

That's a very interesting discovery. Thanks for clearing this up.

[MikePetersSucks]

Actually, the Sages in OoT are Kenja (賢者) not Seijin (聖人). Seijin is found nowhere in the OoT text dump.
Also, Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of a Kenja, so he was the same kind as the OoT sages.

Really? God damn, I'm sorry, I must've cross-referenced my mind with another game or something. I need to learn to stop playing games or reading japanese novels before going into the text dump. ( An Inuyasha game, incase you guys care )

[Lexxi Aileron]

Actually, the Sages in OoT are Kenja (賢者)

What does this mean, pray tell?

[jacensolo06]

According to the Japanese Wikipedia, a Kenja is a wise person (this is what the kanji literally mean as well). Later in the article, it says that in video games and fantasy stories a Kenja is a standard character that gives the protagonist advice. It says that in English these Kenja are referred to as "Wise Man" or "Wise Old Man". It also says that in RPGs a Kenja is a character that can use high level magic.

[wring]

It makes me wonder, Mr Owl was once an ancient Sage, but we've never heard anything about other Sages. What element was he? How many were in that group of Sages? Does he have a temple somewhere?

Ofcourse, you could say that its just gossip, and gossip is not always true. I don't know how they could know who he was in a past life anyways.

[MikePetersSucks]

It makes me wonder, Mr Owl was once an ancient Sage, but we've never heard anything about other Sages.

Yes we do. He was probably one of the Sages that created the temples and the Master Sword.

What element was he? How many were in that group of Sages? Does he have a temple somewhere?

Don't know. Any but Light. Probably one of the same Temples that one of the OOT Sages took up.

Ofcourse, you could say that its just gossip, and gossip is not always true. I don't know how they could know who he was in a past life anyways.

The Akasha.

[Crimson Lego]

It makes me wonder, Mr Owl was once an ancient Sage, but we've never heard anything about other Sages. What element was he? How many were in that group of Sages? Does he have a temple somewhere?

Ofcourse, you could say that its just gossip, and gossip is not always true. I don't know how they could know who he was in a past life anyways.

Some people say he's Rauru, the Light Sage from OoT, in the form of an owl. I personally believe this is reasonable.

[Raien]

Some people say he's Rauru, the Light Sage from OoT, in the form of an owl. I personally believe this is reasonable.

Except that Rauru wasn't dead and he was devoting his power to protecting the Chamber of Sages from Ganondorf's evil magic. And if you've been reincarnated, you can't switch between physical forms whenever you feel like.

Edited by Raian, 24 October 2008 - 05:36 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

REINCARNATION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY [/MORBO]

[wring]

You'd think Rauru would mention to Link, "Hey I'm that owl guy you keep seeing. I take that form when I leave the Sacred Realm." Since he never says that, I don't believe they are the same person. Heck, they have completely different names, too.

There is one more thing that bothers me about the Sages. How do Saria, Fire Sage, Spirit Sage, Ruto, and Impa have Hylian descendants in LttP? And how does Saria have descendants at all? You'd think they would've noticed this when making a game baised on the IW.

[Raien]

There is one more thing that bothers me about the Sages. How do Saria, Fire Sage, Spirit Sage, Ruto, and Impa have Hylian descendants in LttP? And how does Saria have descendants at all? You'd think they would've noticed this when making a game baised on the IW.

The ALttP Maidens could be descended from TP's Sages, who were assigned to guard the Mirror of Twilight before and after the events of OoT.

[Lexxi Aileron]

There is one more thing that bothers me about the Sages. How do Saria, Fire Sage, Spirit Sage, Ruto, and Impa have Hylian descendants in LttP? And how does Saria have descendants at all? You'd think they would've noticed this when making a game baised on the IW.

The line of sages is seen to be passed down through ritual in TWW, and this probably applies to every other game-- that and priesthoods are passed down by ritual in real-life cultures.

[Raien]

The line of sages is seen to be passed down through ritual in TWW, and this probably applies to every other game-- that and priesthoods are passed down by ritual in real-life cultures.

Ah yes. I forgot that the games actually refer to spritual bloodlines.

[Showsni]

There is one more thing that bothers me about the Sages. How do Saria, Fire Sage, Spirit Sage, Ruto, and Impa have Hylian descendants in LttP? And how does Saria have descendants at all? You'd think they would've noticed this when making a game baised on the IW.

Because OoT isn't the IW.

[MikePetersSucks]

They're spiritual descendants. Sagehood isn't a blood thing, it's passed from soul to soul. Saria should prove this already, since she's the "descendant" of the last Forest Sage, but all Kokiri are born directly from the Deku Tree, and have no parents like other races.

[wring]

I'm never reading Zeldapedia again.

It is possible that the Zoras have evolved into a bird-like race in The Wind Waker. This half-bird, half-human race known as the Rito make multiple references to the Zoras. The most convincing is the fact that Medli shares the bloodline of the Zora Earth Sage Laruto, just like how Makar was a Korok, a descendant of the Kokiri like Fado. Also, we see the symbol of the Zora's Sapphire, which is used as the Zora's royal family symbol, in multiple places on the Ritos' home of Dragon Roost Isle. It is even on the clothes worn by the Ritos. It is unknown why this change would have occurred since the Zoras in Oracle of Ages have been shown to be able to live in the sea off the coast of the island of Labrynna; however, unlike the Great Sea, the Zoras seemed to be living in a controlled environment without interruption from other sea dwellers. Regardless, the name similarity between "Rito" and "Princess Ruto" indicates strong evidence for this possibility. Also, in their general physiology Zoras and Ritos have many similarities, like the fact that the Rito have wings that hang down at their elbows, and the Zoras have fins at the same place. The most convincing piece of evidence is that almost every other race is accounted for from Ocarina of Time. The Kokiri became the Koroks, the Gorons the Traveling Merchants, and the Hylians the inhabitants of the various isles. Many things would have changed over the hundreds of years between Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker.

One major question remains. In A Link To The Past, the descendants of the seven sages are all human, despite Ruto being a Zora. In previous paragraphs it is explained that the Zora likely evolved into the bird-like Rito. Because Ruto is a princess, it is likely her descendant is the chief of the evolved Ritos, therefore through the prince. Since Valoo is required to give Rito their wings, they would be much like humans without them, and could intermarry with humans, thus producing Ruto's human heritage.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I knew something was off when they started talking evolution in Zelda... I left out the part when they mention Zola's are a missing link.

[MikePetersSucks]

There's no reason to think evolution isn't in Zelda, the reasoning in the above example is just flawed.

[Raien]

There's no reason to think evolution isn't in Zelda, the reasoning in the above example is just flawed.

I disagree to some extent, although I'm aware that I've explained my position before. For the sake of making the case, the natural world in traditional mythology (and the Zelda universe) is defined by its visible function, not by the invisible process that causes said function. For example, water is defined by its ability to nourish life, not by the process through which it nourishes life. That does not mean the invisible process does not exist, so much as the process is completely irrelevant to the mythology. You will never hear the process of water nourishment involved in a traditional myth or a Zelda story.

The theory of evolution is the same; it's an invisible process, having no relevant applications to the Zelda mythology. And since the term "evolution" can possess more general definitions, I think it makes more sense for it to refer to the purely magical change to the Rito's bodies brought about by Valoo's scales. If the Zoras had become human before they "evolved" wings, then I would argue that the goddesses changed them. They had good reason as the Zoras would have been able to interact with Hyrule after the flood.

Edited by Raian, 26 October 2008 - 07:42 PM.

[wring]

I'd say the Goddesses creating the world and life pretty much destroys any chance of evolution ever entering the Zelda universe. There is no reason to have evolution, because life was created supernaturally. The gods are what keeps life in Hyrule alive and in balance. There is simply no need to evolve.

Also, most people who believe the world was created supernaturally by a diety reject evolution. Zelda takes the side of supernatural creation, and because of that I think its taking the stance that evolution is impossible. Atleast in the Zelda universe.

The only reason to have evolution is to explain where life came from.