323 replies to this topic

[NM87]

You seem to think that every time the word "God" comes up it's referring to Din, Farore, and Nayru. That's not the case. Destiny and all comes from "The Gods." That's not the three Creator Goddesses, that's the Kami; which when used like this refers to your general, unspecified, everyday, run-of-the-mill gods. Western ideas of God don't really apply here; this is Shinto country.

I seems to me that the Triforce only represents three gods and their power. And if destiny has to come from more than just those gods, I don?t see the problem either way.

...Yes it does.

It comes up from the floor?as the essence and then comes together as the full piece. My point is still that Ganon at least had the Triforce of Power, so why do the other two pieces go to Link after he defeats Ganon? And?

And ALttP wouldn't say anything about it because the concept wasn't thought of yet.

?no. I am not arguing ALTTP in 1991 and I am not arguing OOT in 1998. I am discussing both games now, in 2008, by looking at the series as a whole and how things relate to each other today. If you are going to keep arguing that things weren?t this way 15 years ago, then that?s a poor case since it isn?t 15 years ago anymore.

Ganon wasn't balanced, seen by his pig form.

He became the pig after touching the Triforce. Before, he could have been balanced. He gains untold amounts of power hat his evil heart only knows what to do with.

Besides, his wish to rule the world seems to go on just fine in OoT with only the one piece.

Only because he used the power of the Triforce of Power to take over. With what power, I don?t know, most likely the power of Din contained in that piece, nothing else.

What is this?

ALTTP implies being evil as a negative quality as the gods try to prevent evil from gaining the True Force. Therefore, being appropriate to gain the entire power of the Triforce means being in balance without and evil heart.

You make it sound like he's literally siphoning power from Din, rather than just being granted extra power by the Triforce.

That?s because the Triforce of Power contains Din?s power and/or is her essence.

Taken out of the mouth of Jumbie: "pieces = titles = powers = crests."

It doesn?t matter what you call them, I shift between those words so it doesn?t sound like I am saying ?power? thirty times in one post.

[NM87]

If the three Triforce pieces govern power, wisdom and courage, then the power to govern all would be the combined Triforce.

Ganon doesn?t seem to have that power although he owns the Triforce.

Look at it from the context of any other fictional villain who was said to be controlled by the power they wielded.

I know right, it appears Zelda could simply be saying : ?He could not control Din?s power.?

Anyway, seriously, I?m tired of discussing this. Lets say you guys (all twenty of you) win and call it a day(s). I?m going to find something else to talk about. Besides, all you had to do was say:













The Triforce governs all. The one who owns the Triforce governs all.

*fwoooosh*

[Raien]

Ganon doesn’t seem to have that power although he owns the Triforce.

I was never under the impression that Link became more courageous or Zelda more wise at possessing their Triforce pieces in OoT. Courage and Wisdom are just symbols of what the Triforce pieces represent about the world; they are all powers nonetheless.

Edited by Raian, 05 June 2008 - 09:54 AM.

[LionHarted]

I think NM87 is talking about ALttP, Raian.

[Raien]

I think NM87 is talking about ALttP, Raian.

I know, and my point is that it has never been implied that the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom bestow those qualities on their holders.

[LionHarted]

I know, and my point is that it has never been implied that the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom bestow those qualities on their holders.

I suppose, but that's not relevant to what you quoted, which was NM87 saying that there's nothing to convince us that Ganon has the True Force in ALttP, despite owning the entire Triforce.

[Raien]

I suppose, but that's not relevant to what you quoted, which was NM87 saying that there's nothing to convince us that Ganon has the True Force in ALttP, despite owning the entire Triforce.

Apart from having his wish granted and being potentially unstoppable in the Light World?

[LionHarted]

Apart from having his wish granted and being potentially unstoppable in the Light World?

His wish wasn't granted and, indeed, he needed a power outside that of the Triforce to fulfill it.

[Raien]

His wish wasn't granted and, indeed, he needed a power outside that of the Triforce to fulfill it.

He did? Didn't all the power he need to conquer Hyrule come from the Triforce? Isn't that where his powers of Darkness and evil minions came from?

[LionHarted]

He did? Didn't all the power he need to conquer Hyrule come from the Triforce? Isn't that where his powers of Darkness and evil minions came from?

Nope.

He couldn't even get to Hyrule.

[Raien]

Nope.

He couldn't even get to Hyrule.

So what extra power did he need to get to Hyrule (given that the portal he was creating during the game somehow doesn't count)?

[LionHarted]

So what extra power did he need to get to Hyrule (given that the portal he was creating during the game somehow doesn't count)?

He needed the power of the sages to break the seal.

[Raien]

He needed the power of the sages to break the seal.

Okay. I think you're ignoring the entire meaning of the story, but whatever.

Edited by Raian, 05 June 2008 - 04:13 PM.

[LionHarted]

Okay. I think you're ignoring the entire meaning of the story, but whatever.

I understand what you're getting at, of course - if he could get to the light world he would be poised to rule the world.

But it is also true that the Triforce does not give him the power to get to the light world, and thus he does not govern all.

[Raien]

But it is also true that the Triforce does not give him the power to get to the light world, and thus he does not govern all.

This is true, but let's face it, if Ganondorf was given ultimate power with no form of limitation, then there wouldn't be a game to play. We need to stop splitting hairs and look at the general meaning, which was that Ganondorf was given the strongest form of power possible. "To govern all" does not mean "To govern all immediately" or "To govern all without opposition".

[LionHarted]

This is true, but let's face it, if Ganondorf was given ultimate power with no form of limitation, then there wouldn't be a game to play. We need to stop splitting hairs and look at the general meaning, which was that Ganondorf was given the strongest form of power possible. "To govern all" does not mean "To govern all immediately" or "To govern all without opposition".

I suppose what I was getting at was that he who has the Triforce does not necessarily gain the power to rule the world, even though that is its purpose.

[Jumbie]

I don?t know?the True Force is said to be the power that one uses to govern all, which is what ALTTP was describing in the passage I provided.

The great King in AoL's backstory governed with the Triforce. What was the difference between his rule and that of other Hyrulian kings? That he had his wishes for the benefit of the kingdom fulfilled by the Triforce. Thus, he governed all.

ALTTP states that Ganon got his desires granted (?we do not know what Ganon wished from the Triforce? coupled with the fact no other chosen ones appeared to fight him or receive Triforce), therefore he had the whole Triforce.

Does it say his wish was fulfilled, or just that he pronounced his wish? OoT Ganondorf, too, had a wish in his heart when he touched the Triforce. But then... it split. He never got his wish granted, and yet he had created the Dark World and became the Demon King. In ALttP things are no different.

Anyway, seriously, I?m tired of discussing this. Lets say you guys (all twenty of you) win and call it a day(s).

Sounds like a good idea, but an even better idea would be that you finally give up on your misinterpretation of ALttP's manual. You currently have five competent theorists telling you you're wrong - is that still not enough to make you reconsider?

His wish wasn't granted and, indeed, he needed a power outside that of the Triforce to fulfill it.

He did? Didn't all the power he need to conquer Hyrule come from the Triforce? Isn't that where his powers of Darkness and evil minions came from?

OoT tells where these things came from. The dark magic he had all along (therefore feared as the demon thief in TP and ALttP), and his monsters were bred in his Makai, the tainted Sacred Realm. And all of that with just one Triforce piece in his possession.

[Raien]

OoT tells where these things came from. The dark magic he had all along (therefore feared as the demon thief in TP and ALttP), and his monsters were bred in his Makai, the tainted Sacred Realm. And all of that with just one Triforce piece in his possession.

And yet Hyrule was not the Dark World in OoT; it was not Ganon's Dominion. I think that plays a large part in the proceedings.

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 04:28 PM.

[NM87]

The great King in AoL's backstory governed with the Triforce. What was the difference between his rule and that of other Hyrulian kings? That he had his wishes for the benefit of the kingdom fulfilled by the Triforce. Thus, he governed all.

The difference is that his rule was with the True Force, making him greater than any previous king. The king was made great because he could Conquer Power, Govern Wisdom and Temper Courage. Including the goddesses personal power contained in the three Triforce.

Does it say his wish was fulfilled, or just that he pronounced his wish? OoT Ganondorf, too, had a wish in his heart when he touched the Triforce. But then... it split. He never got his wish granted, and yet he had created the Dark World and became the Demon King. In ALttP things are no different.

I'm not going to keep quoting ALTTP manual, you should know it. The text goes so far as to say the Triforce asked Ganondorf what his desires were. It wouldn't have bothered asking if he wasn't in balance, it would have split. In OOT it splits right when he touches it. The Japanese also goes on to say he had acquired the whole Triforce and its entire power, in which they don't know what he wished for after that.

Edited by NM87, 06 June 2008 - 11:35 AM.

[LionHarted]

The dark magic he had all along

Of course we're aware he has dark powers all along, but I'm still convinced that the "power of darkness" (the one strong enough to blot out the light) comes from the Triforce.

[Hero of Legend]

OoT tells where these things came from. The dark magic he had all along (therefore feared as the demon thief in TP and ALttP), and his monsters were bred in his Makai, the tainted Sacred Realm. And all of that with just one Triforce piece in his possession.

And yet Hyrule was not the Dark World in OoT; it was not Ganon's Maou. I think that plays a large part in the proceedings.

To be honest, I don't think Ganon even has a Maou* (since, well, he *is* the Maou). Moreover, I don't think it matters if Hyrule was part of his Makai in OoT (which it might have been, 'Ganondorf's evil power flowing from the temples' and all) since his evil is said to spread from the Sacred Realm anyway. None of this is any different from the story told in ALttP, by the way.

*PS. I figure you just wrote the wrong word, but whatever.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 June 2008 - 03:58 PM.

[Raien]

Yeah, I meant Makai (aka Dominion). I figure that although Ganon could rule Hyrule without transforming it into the Makai, I feel that transforming is secures his power. It's harder for Light to strike back when it is overwhelmed by Darkness.

[Jumbie]

The difference is that his rule was with the True Force, making him greater than any previous king. The king was made great because he could Conquer Power, Govern Wisdom and Temper Courage. Including the goddesses personal power contained in the three Triforce.

I doubt it. The true force of the Triforce is nothing else than to get one's wish(es) granted. To rule a country as a great king, you need nothing more than that.

OoT tells where these things came from. The dark magic he had all along (therefore feared as the demon thief in TP and ALttP), and his monsters were bred in his Makai, the tainted Sacred Realm. And all of that with just one Triforce piece in his possession.

And yet Hyrule was not the Dark World in OoT; it was not Ganon's Dominion. I think that plays a large part in the proceedings.

What role does that play? Hyrule wasn't the Dark World in ALttP either, after all.

[Raien]

What role does that play? Hyrule wasn't the Dark World in ALttP either, after all.

Hyrule was conquered in OoT; Ganon had rulership of the land for seven years.
Hyrule was not conquered in ALTTP; Ganon's final assault was on the castle.

So to judge the full extent of Ganon's power with the combined Triforce, we would need to see Ganon have rulership over Hyrule in ALTTP. Since we don't, we don't have a comparison to make that judgment. I personally believe that the final act of conquest would be to transform Hyrule into the Dark World, which Ganondorf would need the full Triforce to achieve (hence, he looks for Zelda in OoT).

PS: I know you believe that OoT is the IW, and therefore the above scenario doesn't work for you, but it works for me and it maintains what I believe to be the actual meaning of "true force".

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 07:46 PM.