323 replies to this topic

[Marty]

This may seem at first to be a more general thread but I assure you that most of my impressions are storyline related. It has been a while since I last posted here and I have stayed well away from timeline theories for sanities sake, but when I was playing Twilight Princess I couldn't help but notice the multitude of references to other Zelda titles. I thought my impressions might prove to be a fresh perspective as they are clear from any conceptions of current timeline theories hence this post. Now, before I start I didn't see any rules on spoilers, I assume the game has been out long enough to negate them, but I'd just like to state now that I won't be holding back in this post so stop reading if you haven't played the game and still want to experience it "pure".

My very first impression of the game was Zelda meets Final Fantasy. The emphasis on character driven story and fleshed out supporting characters (even minor ones) with the use of cut-scenes was much further than previously explored in Zelda titles and I must say that it helped me through the long hours of gameplay. It was an epic adventure - but almost too epic at times and when the focus of the game moved away from its characters to the dungeons the game started to lose me. Not in a bad way, it was just simply too much for me. The Ice dungeon refreshed me though with the detailed minor characters and prepared me for the Temple of Time which I feel I would not have enjoyed as much if it had come first. But thats gameplay, and we're here to talk about story.

The links to the OoT were clearly established early in the game, namely with the Hero's clothes and the words from the spirits of light (I have no quotes, but that shouldn't matter as I am discussing my impressions and not proof), placing this game sometime after OoT. No surprise there considering OoT was clearly an attempt at the IW (even if they did only add to the contradictions!) and is the start of Ganondorf's tale. The Temple of Time was another clear hint with the entrance replicating that of the Temple of Light and of course the Lost Skull Kid. There was also the reference to Impa with the Sheikah tribe now being all but extinct. TP occurs sometime after OoT, that is clear.

The next noticable link was towards ALttP. The location and setting of the Master Sword was unmistakable and left a major impression on my understanding of the timeline. The other clue (subtle this!) was the ears on various characters. Some had human ears, others had Hylian ears. The Hylian bloodlines are slowly fading, almost like a transition from OoT where everyone is Hylian to ALttP where everyone is human. Subtle, but it did give me that impression (even though there are no doubt many contradictions when it comes to proof, but again these are simply my impressions). This would place TP between OoT and ALttP, and yes I am aware of the IW contradictions but that was my very strong impression of what was intended.

The third Zelda title that the game brought to my mind was AoL. The tale about the shadows and the visual impact of the three Shadow Links reminded me of the final battle in AoL. There was nothing to link the two games in terms of storyline but it has sparked serious questions in my mind as to wether we have seen Midna's people in past games or not. I have no answer at this time, so if there is a link than it will probably be only speculative.

The sky temple was an immediate reminder of the sky temple in MC. When it was first referenced in the game I began to think that perhaps the Ooccuu (sp?) were descendant of the Picori, but when I reached the city my immediate impression of the ooccuu was that they did not seem capable of building such a place, and the sad ruined state of the city reinforced that impression. The game suggested that whoever built the sky city were closer to the Gods than the Hylians, again that made me think about the Picori, and again my impressions of the ooccuu left a lot to be desired. My final impression was that the Picori did indeed build the sky city and the ooccuu have since taken up residence. This would place MC well before TP.

My final impression of the game that I want to discuss was the existence of the triforce in the game. The game tended to leave me believing that the characters had been blessed by the Gods and were not in fact in possession of any triforce piece. The glowing hands, the reference of Midna receiving and wishing to give back the gift do suggest and perhaps prove that the characters were in possession of the triforce but again it was the feeling that I was left with, particularly at the end when the blessing left Ganondorf - Zelda and Link did not take the triforce so where did it go? This impression was also given to me by the impact of Link's actions on so many other characters. He inspired courage, almost as though he could share his gift/blessing. In the past I always felt that the triforce was a lonely responsibility and thats why OoT Link left Hyrule but TP Link was able to return home. Subtle and merely an impression.

I hope these thoughts are of interest.

[Jumbie]

Well, most of what you feel actually matches up with the impressions other players here were left with. Me included, although I don't consider the ALttP references as hints toward an OoT>TP>ALttP placement. I still value the OoT+ALttP connection, therefore putting TP and ALttP in two different timelines. That way, I take the ALttP references as showing how things shape up similarly in two parallel progressions from OoT.

But I found those two observations quite interesting:

The third Zelda title that the game brought to my mind was AoL. The tale about the shadows and the visual impact of the three Shadow Links reminded me of the final battle in AoL. There was nothing to link the two games in terms of storyline but it has sparked serious questions in my mind as to wether we have seen Midna's people in past games or not. I have no answer at this time, so if there is a link than it will probably be only speculative.

While I wouldn't think of AoL, there's another game featuring Shadow Links, FSA. In FSA, the Shadow Links are produced by a dark mirror that once sealed away a dark clan that invaded Hyrule and was then hidden in a temple. Quite suspicious, isn't it?

The sky temple was an immediate reminder of the sky temple in MC. When it was first referenced in the game I began to think that perhaps the Ooccuu (sp?) were descendant of the Picori, but when I reached the city my immediate impression of the ooccuu was that they did not seem capable of building such a place, and the sad ruined state of the city reinforced that impression. The game suggested that whoever built the sky city were closer to the Gods than the Hylians, again that made me think about the Picori, and again my impressions of the ooccuu left a lot to be desired. My final impression was that the Picori did indeed build the sky city and the ooccuu have since taken up residence. This would place MC well before TP.

Again you partially have a point here. It's just that in TMC, there was also the Wind People who lived in a palace in the sky, so that rather associates the Wind People with the Oocca. The Wind People did receive their technology from the Minish though, that's where the circle closes. It's funny how well it all fits: In both TMC and TP, the sky people lived in Hyrule prior to the Hylians, eventually moved up to the skies taking with them their palace, but still maintained contact with the Hylians for a while through messengers.
That makes me believe that TMC shows the era where the sky people still communicated with the Hylians. As for what the Oocca are, they could've somehow evolved from all those birds the Wind People keep in TMC, and now be living in their former owner's home after those abandoned it for some reason...

[LionHarted]

To Jumbie: Well, birds seem to be the pinnacle of evolution as the Hyrulian symbol is a bird, the Zora evolve into Rito, and, going by your presumption, the wind people evolve into Oocca. There's also the fact that Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of a sage.

Personally, though, I see the Oocca and TMC Wind Tribe as being in separate timelines.

Edited by LionHarted, 07 May 2008 - 10:50 PM.

[Raien]

If the trio did not possess the Triforce pieces in TP, that would simplify things immensely. It's a shame that we feel inclined to presume they did possess the Triforce pieces for lack of any real argument to the contrary.

PS: TP Link left his village during the end credits. Where did he go? Who knows...

Edited by Raian, 10 May 2008 - 12:08 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

If the trio did not possess the Triforce pieces in TP, that would simplify things immensely. It's a shame that we feel inclined to presume they did possess the Triforce pieces for lack of any real argument to the contrary.

They have Triforce Marks and possess the Power of the Gods. That made it pretty clear.

[Raien]

They have Triforce Marks and possess the Power of the Gods. That made it pretty clear.

That's exactly my point. I'm just expressing the wish for a simpler explanation.

[MikePetersSucks]

A simpler explanation for what? It's pretty damn simple as it is.

[rayne85]

we've come to assume through many games that the glowing triforce on their hand is the power of the triforce, again not really the part, however like in ww, where you spend all that damn tie collecting the maps to then collect the peices the triforce then resides within link only to be removed by ganon. Its just a way for the triforce parts to be carried around until they are required to be used. If anyones, ever seen the vhs movies of Final Fantasy legend of the crystals, you'll understand what i mean

[MikePetersSucks]

Uh, yea, we know. That doesn't answer the question, though.

[Raien]

A simpler explanation for what? It's pretty damn simple as it is.

It would better explain how the trio came by their powers and provide proper closure when we see that power apparently disappear upon Ganondorf's death.

The necessity for the Triforce to remain constant requires us to ask about what became of it in TP. Take the Triforce out of TP and those questions disappear as well.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, I don't know, maybe Ganondorf lost his Triforce piece because he DIED? It serves the weilder only so long as they live.

[Duke Serkol]

Well, I don't know, maybe Ganondorf lost his Triforce piece because he DIED? It serves the weilder only so long as they live.

And then it would be up for the taking... or at least that's what previous games told us

[MikePetersSucks]

The whole one game, really/ In which the piece never really entered his body. We've never before seen a person die while a Triforce Piece was INSIDE them. Perhaps it goes back to the Sacred Realm.

[Duke Serkol]

You're talking about LoZ. But consider OoT: Ganondorf wants Link's Triforce piece, but he isn't holding back, he's trying to stun Link so he take his Triforce part like in TWW, he's trying to kill him. You die if you fight Ganondorf poorly, you're not simply "defeated".
So that means a Triforce part can be retrieved from a dead person, it doesn't magically fly back to the Sacred Realm.

[Raien]

My point is that as long as the Triforce must remain constant, then the only sort of closure that will satisfy the timeline theorists is one in which the locations of the Triforce pieces are actually known. The lack of knowing where the Triforce of Power is at the end of TP, or how it affects the other two pieces, is an unsatisfactory plot hole.

Edited by Raian, 13 May 2008 - 12:36 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

You're talking about LoZ. But consider OoT: Ganondorf wants Link's Triforce piece, but he isn't holding back, he's trying to stun Link so he take his Triforce part like in TWW, he's trying to kill him. You die if you fight Ganondorf poorly, you're not simply "defeated".
So that means a Triforce part can be retrieved from a dead person, it doesn't magically fly back to the Sacred Realm.

There's also a big wide portal to the Sacred Realm anyone can use.

[Marty]

Jumbie - thanks for your detailed reply. I have to admit that I have never played FS or FSA but from what you say it certainly seems that there is a possible connection to those games. I like your theory on the evolution of the birds in the wind tribe.

Raian - I'll have to check when I get the chance but I really did think that Link was slowly riding back to the village from the aftermath of the destroyed mirror and that everyone was awaiting his arrival.

I do think that the possession of triforce pieces in TP is a presumption. Not only is there no explanation as to where Ganondorf's piece went at the end of the game but there is also no explanation for how Link could have possibly retrieved his piece. Further to that, I'm not sure if there is any evidence at all that Link possessed the Triforce of Courage (ie. glowing hand) other than his transformation into a wolf, and that was portrayed as being more of a characteristic of his spirit. The simple mark on his hand does not indicate possession as it is used in other games where he did not possess the Triforce (OoZ, AoL).

[Duke Serkol]

There's also a big wide portal to the Sacred Realm anyone can use.

Ah, you suggest that Ganondorf would kill Link then go retrieve his Triforce part from the Sacred Realm, where he originally obtained Power. That could work, but nothing in the game suggests it at all, whereas it is most immediate for players to infer the contrary.
The concept in itself of the Triforce spontaneously returning to the Sacred Realm has no basis at all in any game really, while there are several which indicate otherwise, such as LoZ. Or consider TWW: if the Triforce was to return to the Sacred Realm whenever separated from its owner (because that would be its proper place, as most supporters of this theory argue) then why would Courage in that game get scattered across Hyrule when (OoT) Link tried to leave?
Of course you could answer that circumstances are different, that it scattered across Hyrule because Link tried to take it away from Hyrule, but all I'm saying is, in any instance when it was possible for the authors to state or even just suggest that the Triforce should return to the Sacred Realm on its own, they either kept the whereabout of the relic vague and undefined (TWW's ending) or plain stated otherwise.

[MikePetersSucks]

The concept in itself of the Triforce spontaneously returning to the Sacred Realm has no basis at all in any game really

By that logic, why the hell are we entertaining the notion of the Triforce's powers being effectively granted without the actual Triforce pieces?

[Duke Serkol]

Because the game avoids the word Triforce like the pleague and makes this "power" behave in ways that apparently conflict with what has previously been established (or heavily implied) about the Triforces behaviour.

[MikePetersSucks]

That's the same logic that tried to reason that the Light Force was a Triforce piece too, so I don't buy it. TP is quite obviously referencing the Triforce, as that's what it IS! The Triforce and the Power of the Gods are SYNONYMOUS, and it's not like it hasn't acted out of turn before. See: Oracles.

[Duke Serkol]

That's the same logic that tried to reason that the Light Force was a Triforce piece too, so I don't buy it.

*Shrugs* Buy whatever you please. But that's actually the exact opposite (arguing that something was the Triforce because of similarities, while now the argument would be that it is not because of differencies).

The Triforce and the Power of the Gods are SYNONYMOUS

No.

[Raien]

The Triforce and the Power of the Gods are SYNONYMOUS

No.

To be fair, it is synonymous. The Goddesses possessed the powers of Power, Wisdom and Courage, which were embodied in the Triforce pieces that governed the world from the Sacred Realm.

I do wonder though if there was a deliberate simplification of the Zelda mythology in TP. The Triforce and Sacred Realm no longer have the significance that they once held in ALTTP and OoT.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 10:45 AM.

[Marty]

I think the significance of the triforce and sacred realm was downplayed to help keep the focus on the darker elements of Hyrule as well as emphasizing that there are others in Hyrule who have courage (Colin, Rusl and the rebels), others who have wisdom (Renado, Midna, Bo) and others who seek or have sought power (Zant, the Twili, Darbus - although his purpose was good).

[Jumbie]

The Triforce and the Power of the Gods are SYNONYMOUS

No.

Drawing the line of a synonym is difficult here. All we know is, the games say the Triforce consists of three crests that contain the power of the gods.

I do wonder though if there was a deliberate simplification of the Zelda mythology in TP. The Triforce and Sacred Realm no longer have the significance that they once held in ALTTP and OoT.

I think the writers are just taking a break from focusing on them all the time. TP at least treats the Triforce and the Sacred Realm much better than FSA does.

[Hero of Legend]

Drawing the line of a synonym is difficult here. All we know is, the games say the Triforce consists of three crests that contain the power of the gods.

Doesn't TWW equate the Triforce with the 'power of the gods', though? At least in the NoA translation, Ganondorf is pretty explicit about it; "The power of the gods... the Triforce!" he says, and the King also refers to it by that name.

At any rate, I’d say that name carries with it some connotations from previous titles.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 May 2008 - 05:57 PM.

[Jumbie]

Doesn't TWW equate the Triforce with the 'power of the gods', though? At least in the NoA translation, Ganondorf is pretty explicit about it; "The power of the gods... the Triforce!" he says, and the King also refers to it by that name.

Ah, that line is interesting in Japanese. In it, "power of the gods" might even refer to the wish the Triforce holder is granted. But I'll get to that later.

[Duke Serkol]

The Triforce and the Power of the Gods are SYNONYMOUS

No.

To be fair, it is synonymous.

What you people are saying is the same as this: oak is synonymous of tree.
It is NOT, damn it. An oak is necessarily a tree, but a tree is not necessarily an oak. That shouldn't be rocket science.
Similarly, it cannot be said that every time the words "power of the gods" appear in Zelda they refer to the Triforce. Surely they could, but they don't necessarily HAVE to. Like in the very same TP, the light spirits are said to use the power of the gods to protect Hyrule, aren't they? Would you assume the Light Spirits too have the Triforce? (That would be the only possible conclusion if you presume the Gods can only grant their powers through possession of a Triforce part).

In other news... while digging for the quote about the spirits protecting Hyrule, I apparently found a previously unnoticed bombshell:

When the chosen ones appear...
They are always born into this world in perfect balance.
That is the destiny of the chosen. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests.
When this world brings forth another marked as you are...
Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood.
Do not think this ends here...
The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!

...needless to say I immediately lost interest in locating that quote and decided I had to post this right away

[Jumbie]

In other news... while digging for the quote about the spirits protecting Hyrule, I apparently found a previously unnoticed bombshell:

When the chosen ones appear...
They are always born into this world in perfect balance.
That is the destiny of the chosen. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests.
When this world brings forth another marked as you are...
Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood.
Do not think this ends here...
The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!

Wow, what a huge discovery! ...They actually cut down Ganondorf's last words? What a loss!

So, this text shows that Ganondorf was actually aware of his impending death, meaning in turn that his Triforce mark faded because of his death, not that he died because the Triforce mark faded (nor because of Zant's neck snap). That's awesome.

Luckily the quote also exists in the Japanese dump. I just had to go ahead and do it:

選ばれし力を持つ者が現れる時
When one who holds the chosen power appears...
When the chosen ones appear...

必ず、その対極を成す者が生まれ出ん
Necessarily, one to accomplish the antithesis of that will be born.
They are always born into this world in perfect balance.

それが、お前達が信じる神が与えた紋章を持つ者の運命だ
That is the fate of those who bear the crests that were awarded by the gods you believe in.
That is the destiny of the chosen. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests.

この世に紋章を持つ者が現れる限り
Whenever those bearing the crests appear in this world...
When this world brings forth another marked as you are...

何度でも、流血の時代が訪れる
An age of bloodshed will come, as often as need be.
Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood.

これで、全てが終わったと思うなよ
Do not think everything ends with this...
Do not think this ends here...

これが、光と闇の血塗られた歴史の始まりだと思え！
Think of this as the beginning of a bloodsmeared history of light and darkness!
The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!

Note that my choices of singular and plural regarding the chosen ones were done by personal reasoning. It's ambiguous in Japanese.

For a moment there, I really feared Ganondorf implied the survival of his Gerudo tribe and thus segued from TP into FSA, but thank God that was just wishful thinking on NoA's part. Phew, that was a pretty close cut!

I think we can safely accept this removed passage as canon. It does nothing but add some more sense to TP.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 May 2008 - 10:52 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

What you people are saying is the same as this: oak is synonymous of tree.
It is NOT, damn it. An oak is necessarily a tree, but a tree is not necessarily an oak. That shouldn't be rocket science.
Similarly, it cannot be said that every time the words "power of the gods" appear in Zelda they refer to the Triforce. Surely they could, but they don't necessarily HAVE to. Like in the very same TP, the light spirits are said to use the power of the gods to protect Hyrule, aren't they? Would you assume the Light Spirits too have the Triforce? (That would be the only possible conclusion if you presume the Gods can only grant their powers through possession of a Triforce part).

"Hm...Triforce Mark, 'Power of the Gods', 'Chosen Ones', Same general powers as a Triforce piece, now if only we could find mention of the Trifor-damn, the script doesn't mention it. Sorry visual cues, previous precedent, deductive reasoning, writer's intent, and common sense. The Triforce be not thar."

The Light Spirits project none of these attributes. They're specific emissaries of the Gods.