89 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

That sounds interesting. How would you propose this should be accomplished (besides the already present Lynels, of course)?

Add Moas, and make it side scrolling with pits of lava. Then it would be hard enough to make me tear my hair out! Oh, wait...

Edited by Showsni, 21 April 2008 - 10:55 AM.

[LionHarted]

How to Reboot the Zelda Series

Effectively: Combine all the similar stories into two mega-large and possibly multi-disk installments. Unfortunately most of the promising story skeletons are too recent for this idea to be very effective, so instead imagine if this is how the stories had originally been constructed.

The Adventure of Link, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Four Swords, The Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass are all rather similar in the respect that either Princess Zelda is captured or incapacitated from the get-go by a villain who is not Ganon or that they involve Link exploring lands outside of Hyrule proper. A game using elements from these would make an excellent starting point for a reboot of the series.

For example:

STORY
- The entire beginning scenario of TMC could be combined with the scenario we see in AoL. Link delivers a sword to Hyrule Castle as the prize for a sword fighting tournament which a stranger named Vaati wins. Vaati curses Zelda and she falls into a deep sleep. She is hidden in a castle north of Hyrule proper. For the sake of cohesiveness, Link could hail from Ordon Village, and this errand could mirror Link's errand in the beginning of TP.
- The setup for the main quest could use elements from the Oracle games. The castle that Zelda is hidden away in could be Ambi's Palace in the neighbouring Labrynna. Link could need to enlist the help of the Oracles to wake Zelda, and the villains from the Oracles games could make an appearance.
- As in TMC and PH, the story could inevitably result in Link having to collect materials to forge a sword that can defeat Vaati with his newfound power.
- Again, as in Oracles, Vaati's role in kidnapping Princess Zelda could be related to some larger plot to revive an ancient demon...

OVERWORLD
- Combining the AoL overworld with Labrynna and Holodrum, as has been suggested by some, would be fantastic. I personally have always fancied the idea, for purely extracanonical (that is, not set in the tradtional timeline) fanfiction purposes, of using Ikana Valley as the Valley of Death in AoL, as well. Additional elements of MM could be sprinkled in with the OoX and AoL elements. Same goes for certain elements of TMC (Mount Crenel and the Minish Woods, for example).
- Use classic areas from these games, but flesh them out immensely and add additional areas never seen before. Use as many of the towns from AoL as possible, possibly combining these with the areas taken from OoX, AoL, TMC, and MM. (Example: The town of Kasuto is based on Clock Town.)
- Possibly include some islands from PH to span the gap between continents.

CHARACTERS
- Use characters from TMC, AoL, OoX, and MM. Avoid, of course, using characters like Cremia and Romani who have traditionally been associated or are based on characters associated with with Hyrule itself. (Although, frankly, I prefer the pair of Cremia and Romani to Malon...)

ITEMS
- A number of items should be optional, like in traditional RPGs, but helpful in obtaining things like Heart Pieces, et cetera. Include at least a Bow, the Boomerang, Bombs, and some more standard items. Some specialty items like the Lens of Truth, Shovel, and Grappling Hook may also be included. Save the legendary stuff for the later installment, however.
- Use the Rod of Seasons and Harp of Ages, sometimes in conjunction with each other. (The commercial for these games was PHENOMENAL.) Give us an item for Farore, too.


The Legend of Zelda, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker, Four Swords Adventures, and Twilight Princess are all similar in the respect that they involve Ganon taking the Triforce or some other artifact of immense power and attempting to seize the Kingdom of Hyrule and/or find the lost parts of the Triforce. This could make a good follow up to Link's initial heroic quest--it was just a warm-up.

STORY
- Start it like TP, using the introduction of Twilight instead of the errand given to Link. Have Link's initial quest mirror that of TP. He should retain his original form once he exits the Twilight, unlike in TP.
- He sets out to find the Moon Pearl, which will allow him to retain his original form even in the Twilight Realm.
- After confronting the evils plaguing the forest, he discovers that he needs the Master Sword to repel the Twilight. He finds it in the one stretch of woods untouched by darkness.
- As Link peels back the Twilight, we should catch on to some greater scheme--someone kidnapping individuals descended from the sages of an ancient war during which the Sacred Realm of legend was sealed, a la ALttP. Link starts to hunt down these maidens and the monsters that trap them--more like FSA than ALttP's Dark World in the sense that it takes place in Hyrule instead of the Sacred Realm, but using elements from both, as well as some from TP and OoT.
- Link goes on a wild goose chase, like in FSA--to find the Dark/Twilight Mirror, believed to be the cause of the Twilight, and to see whether the ancient trident of the demon from the war has been disturbed. He is disappointed on both counts.
- Whatever sage descendants have been rescued so far deduce that the evil Ganon has been revived and is attempting to use the Mirror to access the sealed Sacred Realm, which was transformed into the Dark World long ago, and where his evil tribe was sealed. Link learns that Ganon has the Triforce of Power, and that Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom. Vaati's goal had been to steal the Triforce of Wisdom from Zelda for his master, Ganon. Princess Zelda has recently disappeared, and it is unknown whether she was captured or if she fled.
- Link needs to find the Triforce of Courage before Ganon does, lest he take the third part and become unstoppable. Unfortunately its whereabouts are unknown. He is commissioned to use the Master Sword to travel to the past to find it.
- He inevitably becomes the hero of the ancient war (this segment could take up an entire game disk).
- He returns to the present. Assisted by Sheik, he rescues the remaining maidens and confronts Ganondorf. Ganondorf discovers Sheik is Zelda, and incapacitates her. Link battles Ganon once and for all at his tower behind Death Mountain, and destroys him with the Silver Arrow. The Triforce passes to him, and the story ends.

OVERWORLD
- Largely based on the TP and OoT overworlds with elements from LoZ and ALttP sprinkled on. Portion drawn from the Great Sea of TWW. Use a number of new areas, or donate more of the overworld to areas seen only in 2D thus far...

CHARACTERS
- Insert cast of OoT (using MM counterparts where appropriate), TP, ALttP, and TWW (one of the sage descendants could be Medli, for example)

ITEMS
- Master Sword, Triforce, Silver Arrows.
- Hookshot could be introduced here, with Longshot expansion.
- Enchanted Boomerang.
- Magical arrows (Fire, Ice, Light, etc.)
- Roc's Cape
- Specialty items abound, including a number never before seen



The possibilities from there are endless. Just... keep it to one Link, please. And avoid reusing areas whenever possible, even if they're updated or changed.

Edited by LionHarted, 21 April 2008 - 04:48 PM.

[KeeSomething]

That's just stupid. Pretty much every character had there own motivations and emotions, and were all different. They were used far more than the characters of OoT, ALttP, or TWW ever were and were used more effectively too. Do you really mean to tell me that ARYLL is some amazing character that connects with anyone in a meaningful way? Or Saria? No, they're more underused then anyone in TP.

I suggest you read the wise word of Hylian Dan.

Um, no, he was crazy from the get go. Very time we saw Zant prior to that there were hints of his insanity, but I guess that can be overlooked just so you can hate on this game some more.

You are really taking this personally. I suggest you relax because comments as childish as "I
guess that can be overlooked just so you can hate on this game some more" only weaken your arguement.

Anyways, about Zant: Seeing him on his throne triggers him to become insane. Yes, the flashblack implies that he was crazy all along, but all the previous cutscenes say otherwise. Ther eis no forshadowing that implied that he was crazy, either. You just watch up to him while he is sitting on his throne, and he just goes crazy.... Did I miss something? Using the flashback is just a cheap tatic or trick on the player "Oh, guess what? He was crazy all along!" It doesn't make him any more developed, it just shows that the writers got bored with Zant, and decided to chance his entire character.

And Midna DEVELOPED as a character. You can clearly trace her character path from the beginning to the end, and pretty much everything was logical and, IMO, well done. She was different in the second half of the game because she was saved by two Light Worlders after being mortally wounded by a fellow Twili. Of course she's going to rethink her ideals and change some things!

I suggest you play Majora's Mask, and pay attention to the character Tatl. She is Midna's prototype, but written much better. She is snotty and rude, just like Midna, but she slowly gains more respect for Link throughout your adventure. Even at the end, when Tatl tells Link that she admires him, she still keeps her personality.

Midna, however, loses her personality completely. He goes from a sadistic bitch, to a goody-goody. Now, it's understandable that her respect for Link and Zelda would grow, but when she loses everything that made her a great character in the first half of the game, you know the trasition was done poorly.

Right, because Link and Midna are going to turn evil right? NO! They aren't! But it did serve to help explain Zant's motivation as well as create some conflict about how we view the Twili. With that scene, the game makes us question whether or not helping Midna is really a good thing. And it really adds to the ending, where Light and Shadow join together to battle evil. Whereas in the beginning Link hated the Twilight and Midna hated the Light. The big themes in TP were power, corruption, and the duality between light and shadow(which symbolized several other things), and most of these things worked well, I'd say.

I recommend you rewatch the Dark Link cutscene. It clearly implies that the Fused Shadows can corrupt the wearer (Midna, noy Link; I never said Link would turn evil), and there was nothing that built on that concept.

If you'd remember(which you won't, because you're biased) OoT, ALttP, and TWW all did this as well. When you're looking for the Sages in all of those games, very little actual plot development happens. It's just going from one dungeon to the next. As for the thing about Ganondorf/Zant "sitting on the their thrones", that is also a thing that all four of those games have in common. In every single one of them, all we're given is vague speeches about how Ganondorf may be doing something but we're not given any real indication as to how he's a real threat.

Incorrect, Ocarina of Time continued to give you motivation to defeat Ganondorf. Think back:
-Kokiri Forest, your home, is taken over by Ganondorf's monsters. Saria went to the Forets Tmple to stop the source, but she needs your help.
-Lon Lon Ranch becomes corrupt by Ingo, who is trying to please Ganondorf.
-Ganondorf unleashes the Bongo Bongo from the Shadow Temple. Kakariko almost burns down after this happens.
-Ganondorf revives Volgeria, and has imprisoned all the Gorons to the Fire Temple to get eaten by Volgeria.
-Hyrule Castle Town is destroyed completely, and Hyrule Castle is now gone. It's not Ganon's Castle.
-Zora's Domain get frozen over, and you are told by Shiek that Ruto is still alive, and she is in the Water Temple.

.... There is a lot of new stories happening after you get the Maste Sword in Ocarina of Time. Of course, you don't see that because "you're so bias." Just kidding, but perhaps you should stay away fro mthe personal insults, ya?

Now, I agree that ALttP doesn't really offer too many new stories after you get the Master Sword, but I think it's more understandable being a game from 1992. Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, and Majora's Mask had great stories that has virtually no stalling. You were costantly given motivation to continue your quest by seeing the world being directly affected by evil or what not. The Wind Waker did a pretty good job of this as well, but like Twilight Princess, there was a dreadful amount of stalling. The Triforce hunt comes to mind.

It's no different in any other game. Even in TWW, Ganondorf mainly focused on Zelda and only really focused on Link at the end of the game. He focuses on Link at the end of TP also. Furthermore, Zelda wasn't dead. She was kidnapped, just as she is in every game. The only difference is in OoT and TWW he did it at the very end and immediately revealed what he did while in TP he let Zant tell Link. All three instances were to lure Link there. In fact, I'd say many of TP's percieved failings are merely because they felt they didn't need to reiterate what Ganondorf says in two other games before that. If we've played OoT and TWW, we know that Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda so he could lure Link into a confrontation. We can also assume that he's doing it to reunite the Triforce, just as he did in the other two games.

Like I've said, Wind Waker had its fair share of stalling, but Ganondorf was far more active (and developed) in Wind Waker than in Twilight Princess. You see him 2 times before the final battle. The first time, he beats you up and throws you into the see. The second time Valoo burns down his fortress.... Well, you know the story. I'm getting tired of writing it all out. The fact is: Ganondorf was just thrown into Twilight Princess to please the OoT fanboys. He doesn't do anything at all accept put a barrier around that Castle that no one notices, and he sits on his throne... not even knowing who Link is. And, somehow, he has Zelda, too.

You want the side quests of Harvest Moon, the enemy A.I. of an FPS, the boss battles of Shadow of the Colossus, and the overworld of Elder Scrolls Oblivion. While that would be nice, that shouldn't be expected from any developer, including Nintendo.

I never said anything about Harvest Moon, I said I don't want Zelda to be like Oblivion, and I just mentioned SotC's bosses (I actually stated that I want Zelda's boss battles to be more like Metroid Prime's). This really isn't too much to ask for considering how Majora's Mask did almost everything right, and it was only developed in 2 years. Not to mention that was two console generations and 8 years ago.
------------------------



And I agree that Zelda should be rebooted, but not in the way that LionHarted is suggesting. I'll be more specific later, but I think my first post explains most of what I feel would be necessary.

Edited by KeeSomething, 22 April 2008 - 11:23 AM.

[Fyxe]

As I have played MM and TP in recent memory, I have to say that Midna was written better than Tatl. That's not to say Tatl was written badly, but she had little backstory and there were only a few moments of distinct character development at significant moments in the game. Midna had a hell of a lot more. Sorry, but to claim that Midna was a poorly written Tatl is nonsense, although they are obviously similar characters.

And just to make it clear, I'm not bashing MM. I think it's a slightly better game, although they're both very, very good games despite their flaws.

[KeeSomething]

Too each his own, I guess, but I don't think adding more backstory to a character makes them better when their actualy character growth is very poorly done. Then again, we seem to disagree on the definition on "poor" is, so we can just leave it at that. I really hate the direstion this thread has gone, becomnig another "TP sucks/rules" thread. This is partly my fault, but I thank members like LionHarted who are actually sticking to the topic by adding their visions of where Zelda should go from here.

Edited by KeeSomething, 22 April 2008 - 01:16 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

about Zant: Seeing him on his throne triggers him to become insane. Yes, the flashblack implies that he was crazy all along, but all the previous cutscenes say otherwise. Ther eis no forshadowing that implied that he was crazy, either. You just watch up to him while he is sitting on his throne, and he just goes crazy.... Did I miss something? Using the flashback is just a cheap tatic or trick on the player "Oh, guess what? He was crazy all along!" It doesn't make him any more developed, it just shows that the writers got bored with Zant, and decided to chance his entire character.

Absolute truth.

Midna, however, loses her personality completely. He goes from a sadistic bitch, to a goody-goody. Now, it's understandable that her respect for Link and Zelda would grow, but when she loses everything that made her a great character in the first half of the game, you know the trasition was done poorly.

About this, I cannot say I agree. Midna was one of the very few characters I found quite well thought out and developed through TP. To the point that one has to wonder whether they did not focus on her too much.

I recommend you rewatch the Dark Link cutscene. It clearly implies that the Fused Shadows can corrupt the wearer (Midna, noy Link; I never said Link would turn evil), and there was nothing that built on that concept.

Actually Lanayru seems to be warning Link that HE could be corrupted by the Fused Shadow... which kinda threw me off then when Midna used it, because I thought it would be Link who'd get to harness its dark power.
She does lose control of herself and impale Zant with it but... that's all. Can't even say he did not have it coming. I mean what do we usually do to Zelda villains? Arrest them? It's not like Link has ever needed to be corrupted by a dark artifact to stab Ganon.

Ocarina of Time continued to give you motivation to defeat Ganondorf.

More truthness.

Now, I agree that ALttP doesn't really offer too many new stories after you get the Master Sword

And it put down the basis of Hyrule's history and mythology, so I do believe we can cut it some slack

You see him 2 times before the final battle. The first time, he beats you up and throws you into the see. The second time Valoo burns down his fortress....

To be honest that is one of my main gripes with TWW. Not that Ganon is more involved, I did like that, but how this is accomplished: the first time, you get thrown in the sea. Okay. You come back with the Master Sword, but he beats you up because the batteries have run out. Fair enough. You go through a quest to restore the sword's power AND get a Triforce piece to match Ganon's... and then you still get the crap beat out of you in mere seconds. What the fuck??

Edited by Duke Serkol, 22 April 2008 - 01:31 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

To be honest that is one of my main gripes with TWW. Not that Ganon is more involved, I did like that, but how this is accomplished: the first time, you get thrown in the sea. Okay. You come back with the Master Sword, but he beats you up because the batteries have run out. Fair enough. You go through a quest to restore the sword's power AND get a Triforce piece to match Ganon's... and then you still get the crap beat out of you in mere seconds. What the fuck??

But...but...Link wins the last fight.

[Duke Serkol]

Maybe you didn't follow... we've gone through three separate quests to prepare Link to fight Ganon, first geting the Master Sword, but it was out of power and we got beat, then we went looking for the Sages AND finally a Triforce part. Nonetheless, Link gets beaten again, by bare handed Ganon no less, and the Triforce part is taken from him (admittedly ganon then also loses his, but that should only keep things even between them). Then after just a cutscene we are finally allowed to fight Ganon (outside of a darn cutscene I mean) and even though for the first time he has taken out his swords we win.
I understand this could be explained by the King's wish upon the Triforce to give hope to Link and Zelda, but that's speculation and doesn't really make this sequence of events any better.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 22 April 2008 - 02:25 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Well, Link IS just a little kid. It shouldn't be expected that just because he's got the Triforce and the restored Master Sword he's going to be proffessional and ready for everything. At least, that's how I looked into it.

[Duke Serkol]

Well then maybe they shouldn't have made him a kid. I mean, it might have been okay to have him get socked this many times if theis was another medium (and I say might), but this is a videogame. Link is the player's avatar. Did they really think it was a good idea to make him helpless three times after going on just as many quests to prevent exactly that? >_<

Besides his age never seemed to be a problem in LoZ, FSA and Oracles (and other games in which he doesn't fight Ganon but other powerful evils)

[Fyxe]

Precisely BECAUSE it's a video game is exactly the reason why the narrative does not have to be constrained by the gameplay. It's a simple fact of many many video games; gameplay is gameplay, story is story. If you force gameplay onto narrative then using a Pheonix Down on Aeris would have ruined one of the biggest plot moments in video game history.

Besides, if you want to get technical, the first time Link was beaten, he was caught by surprise in a confined location by the Helmarok King. The second time, he was caught by surprise when the Master Sword failed to do any damage whatsoever. The only other time your complaint has merit is when he's knocked out just before the final fight. I can't remember the details, but hey, you get to fight him properly right afterwards, so whatever. Usually it's a result of Link being caught by a surprise. He was ready for the final battle, and was able to defend himself properly.

And they're hardly going to make Link into an adult just because it means he gets knocked out a little less easily.

[Hero of Legend]

Precisely BECAUSE it's a video game is exactly the reason why the narrative does not have to be constrained by the gameplay. It's a simple fact of many many video games; gameplay is gameplay, story is story. If you force gameplay onto narrative then using a Pheonix Down on Aeris would have ruined one of the biggest plot moments in video game history.

I beg to differ. The point of the story is (or, should be) to provide motive for the gameplay. The plot certainly could be interesting and worthwhile in itself, but it's all the better if it's somehow relevant and/or (at least) consistent with the rest of the game.

As for Aerith's death, I don?t think that?s a good argument because; 1) It was pretty lame (she didn't even die properly) and 2) It would have been better have her fall into a volcano or something so they can't use a Phoenix Down on her*. Same-ish plot device, but more consistent with the gameplay.

*Or they could've bothered to explain the obvious difference between KO and death, I suppose...

Now, I agree with Duke about TWW. Link getting beaten three times (technically it was only twice, but it's the last time that's problematic) by Ganondorf is not the best way it could've been done. Yet I'm not too trubled with it; the developers obviously thought Ganondorf had learnt something from the events in OoT, and Link simply could not beat him this time. His figurine says Link can't defeat Ganondorf alone - and I personally feel that's exactly how it should be. Of course, in a game, the last boss cannot be unbeatable, but Nintendo has solved that so far. However, I will admit the game basically going "NOW you can beat Ganondorf. Oh, wait... You can't!" makes already pointless fetch-quests feel even more pointless.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 23 April 2008 - 10:09 AM.

[Fyxe]

It would have been better have her fall into a volcano or something so they can't use a Phoenix Down on her*. Same-ish plot device, but more consistent with the gameplay.

Would it? WOULD IT?

Methinks when it comes to plot, you are not the first that should be consulted.

[Hero of Legend]

I daresay both the point and the humor went by you on this one.

That doesn't make what I said any less true, however; it does make for greater art if, and when, story and gameplay merge to form a cohesive whole, as opposed to when one suffers at the hands of the other.

Obviously, I trust developers to come up with better and, if you will, less ridiculous examples than me. Not that I see anything profoundly wrong with Aerith falling into lava (or water, maybe, to get that death scene) after Sephirioth stabbed her; it's just a change of setting, after all.

Or, using TWW: What if, before the final battle, Ganondorf would have threatened Zelda's life, to force Link to lay down his arms? Or used an illusion, like he did before, as a distraction to catch him off-guard? That, I think, would have been better than Link getting beaten outright, in spite of the game's earlier assertions that this would not be so.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2008 - 05:16 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Good Sir, I applaud your rebuttal

[Jumbie]

Or, using TWW: What if, before the final battle, Ganondorf would have threatened Zelda's life, to force Link to lay down his arms?

Phenomenal solution! So simple, and yet I never thought of it... From now on, this is the official fanon version for me.^^

[Fyxe]

Except that he already had a similar moment like that earlier in the game. It would also be going against Ganondorf's character in TWW to directly threaten Zelda's life. He shows no indication of ever wanting to kill Zelda in TWW, from my memory.

Besides, frankly, he doesn't fear Link in TWW. He toys with him. It's his mistake to do so, but he does, much like how Ganondorf does to young Link in OoT.

[Jumbie]

...Oh, you're right. While I wouldn't be bothered by Ganondorf repeating this threatening from earlier (he also repeats beating Link up, after all), I do acknowledge it wouldn't fit with him saying in the same scene that he wants no harm on the children. Which is a very neat line.

Darn, there's got to be some explanation to how Ganondorf can simply grab Link in lightspeed without the latter even reacting!
Any explanation please, because that way it's just too ridiculous.
Gameplay, sure. But what would fanfic retellers of TWW do with that scene? They're required to make something up, they just cannot follow the game at this point without ruining their entire story...

[Fyxe]

Wasn't it the case that Link was not aware of where Ganondorf was? Frankly, it's been a long while since I played it, so forgive me if my memory is wrong, but Ganondorf caught Link off-guard somehow, didn't he? Wasn't Link distracted? During the final battle, however, Link was fully ready and prepared and actually paying attention.

That's basically all I can think of. He must have caught him off-guard.

Wait. Didn't Ganondorf have the Triforce of Power? Is that it? He no longer had the Triforce in the final battle, but he had it when Link first got up there.

[Showsni]

Link's standing there facing him. Ganondorf does run at him very fast, but still... He just gets beaten up. I guess it's a good job you can't drop your sword in normal gameplay.

A nice overview of TWW:


Yes, Ganondorf has the ToP. But Link's got the ToC and the Master Sword. He's beaten worse odds in other incarnations...

[TheAvengerLever]

Oh come ON. You cannot expect a little child to be a master at fighting and such excellence as a centuries old demon king who not only has the Triforce of Power on his side but centuries worth of magic and fighting knowledge. Link is NOT some infallible hero. He can slip up occassionally, especially against someone a bit more experienced. Having the ToC and the Master Sword doesn't mean he has wits enough to defeat evil, just the means to defeat evil.

[rayne85]

LionHarted, you're totally on to something there.

Why not combine aspects from all of the games into one.

Have the ability to venture outside of the realm of hyrule to other lands etc, and say complete the usual 7 dungeons etc, then move to another land and so forth, rather then just limit it to some things, keep some of the usual races just make them differ slightly depending on where they are located, this would be great in extending the game play and story lines. have some retracing aspect but not too much, otherwise it'll get a lot like the metroid series. But something similar, like hyrule could be the place you start and finish. you complete your 7 dungeons but to get the last little things from each dungeon you need to go to the source of that dungeon which would be another land, complete those quests there and the dungeon which gives you the ability to return to hyrule and finish that off.

as for weapons and items etc, some new items would be good, or at least evolutions of items, for eg. the hookshot to the clawshot etc. and items / weapons that are greatly reuseable for many things. one thing that irritates me is that once you get the item in the dungeon thats basically the item you use for the rest of the dungeon and shock horror its the weapon that you need to use to beat the boss. that irritates me, its too predictable

One thing i'm highly impressed with in twilight princess was the lengthy story line, the cut scenes etc, quite liked the ending fmv so maybe some more of those, but i guess that runs with the length of the game.

Now on a side path, i had a dream the other night after reading this, and i had this dream of kinda like an anthology of zelda, where in a way its like oot where you need to travel back and forth, but through the zelda timelines, in essence, you can play a variety of zelda games in one. kinda like the temple of time when you're facing the sages, that could be a pathway back and forth through the timelines to protect the hero of time etc, or even a new character who has to protect the hero of time, ooooh..


something that i forgot to add too was that it'd be nice if after you completed the game, it would raise the difficulty level, and something else that would be nice too would be some mini dungeons that constantly changed, i know it'd be too annoying to do for the big dungeons but like the oasis's from TP something around that size where it would never be the same twice...
maybe some new enemies / monsters, and some rebirths (queen gohma, gohma from ww, and armogohma from TP)

if i think of anything else i'll add it here

As I have played MM and TP in recent memory, I have to say that Midna was written better than Tatl. That's not to say Tatl was written badly, but she had little backstory and there were only a few moments of distinct character development at significant moments in the game. Midna had a hell of a lot more. Sorry, but to claim that Midna was a poorly written Tatl is nonsense, although they are obviously similar characters.

And just to make it clear, I'm not bashing MM. I think it's a slightly better game, although they're both very, very good games despite their flaws.

Though in all honesty, how much background can you give a little blue fairy? Compared to the Princess of Twilight? So you're highly validated in that matter.
Having recently played through OoT and TP there has been some definite evolution with the companion figure in the series, granted midna can do a damn sight more then flitter around in a mad panic when there's something wrong, though one thing i did miss was the enemy bios, not that it matters. i still know what all the enemies are but its just heritage for zelda.

on that note, something that would also be nice to have would be a bestiary something similar to that of ff12, as that gave a little information on the enemy and the background

Edited by Arturo, 25 April 2008 - 09:39 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Except that he already had a similar moment like that earlier in the game. It would also be going against Ganondorf's character in TWW to directly threaten Zelda's life. He shows no indication of ever wanting to kill Zelda in TWW, from my memory.

I don't think that's a problem. The first scene was quite different; Ganondorf never threatened anyone, for one, since Link was already groveling at his feet like some animal. He's just "Gotcha, Zelda!" for the most part.

As for him not wanting to kill them... Well, even if he didn't, how would Link know that? And would Ganondorf really care so much about them that he would forsake his quest for the Triforce? At any rate, he would have known Link would not let Zelda die, so it certainly could have been worked into the story, with Ganondorf admitting his deception afterwards.

Darn, there's got to be some explanation to how Ganondorf can simply grab Link in lightspeed without the latter even reacting!
Any explanation please, because that way it's just too ridiculous.

I guess the developers just needed a way for Ganondorf to reunite the Triforce, and that was the best they came up with.

Oh come ON. You cannot expect a little child to be a master at fighting and such excellence as a centuries old demon king who not only has the Triforce of Power on his side but centuries worth of magic and fighting knowledge. Link is NOT some infallible hero. He can slip up occassionally, especially against someone a bit more experienced. Having the ToC and the Master Sword doesn't mean he has wits enough to defeat evil, just the means to defeat evil.

That's not how a game works, nor is it anything like all the other Zeldas where an adolescent Link beat the ancient Demon King of Evil. It could have been fine if it was properly explained, but its not.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 25 April 2008 - 07:54 AM.

[Arturo]

rayne85, please do not triple post. It makes everything look untidy. If you forgot to say anything and you are the last person who has posted, you must edit the post, instead of posting again.

Thanks ^^

[Raien]

I've just read the GTAIV review and took a second-look at Okami (a game I was previously planning on getting for Wii), and I have some new ideas about what would be good for Zelda.

In future generations of video games, the characterisation of NPCs in free-roaming games is going to become much more sophisticated than it is today. And unless the Legend of Zelda series can attain that same level of sophistication, I fear its characters are going to lose impact with the modern audience. But since spending time on sophisticated characters and story is somewhat against Nintendo's philosophy for game development, I think concentrating on an engaging main story and introducing the linear pick-up-and-play style of Phantom Hourglass would be more beneficial for the series in general (or at least where Nintendo wants to take the series). I also feel that concentrating the plot on a mythology basis and avoiding an anime basis is also more universal in its attraction.

Edited by Raian, 26 April 2008 - 01:27 PM.

[Selena]

NPCs in Zelda have always struck me as ultimately irrelevant. Most of the game is Link fighting by himself in the middle of nowhere, so I've always looked at it more as a story of one lone guy fighting against uphill odds. Not as intense as Metroid's style of seclusion, but similar. So I agree that focusing on Zelda's NPCs isn't necessarily beneficial, and in a way, I agree with Steve in that it should be like LoZ - just Link and one or two survivors in a catastrophic situation. Or a place where your interaction with NPCs isn't a big deal. It would emphasize the feeling of solitude and make it a more personal journey, rather than having to worry about what the NPCs are doing.

And I know most or all of you are die hard fans, but let's be honest. The NPCs in Zelda aren't that very good anyway when compared to games that are more focused on character. Zelda's not a character driven franchise at all, and so NPCs are expectedly straight forward and underdeveloped. The same with the plot most of the time. I doubt you're going to see genuinely good supporting character development in a Zelda game. Hell, even the main character doesn't get any lines! NPCs in Zelda are essentially expendable. I don't think I've ever genuinely cared about what was going on with them. Not even with Majora. I just wanted to get to the next temple/area and go explore or fight.


As for new stories... well, I remembered the other day about the hype surrounding Majora just before it came out. One of my friends had a Nintendo magazine and was showing me pictures of the characters, and was trying to describe the story. But he didn't know much, if anything, about it. He was going off rumor and speculation based on the fact that Termina was meant to be some kind of mirror world to Hyrule. And sometimes, the speculation is more intriguing than the actual game. The pre-release description of Majora I heard/assumed was pretty much:

"Link is going to be trapped in Termina, a mirror land of Hyrule where everything is backwards. Your friends are no longer your friends, but corrupted versions of their Hyrule selves. In Termina, it's Princess Zelda that's the enemy. Using the Triforce of Wisdom and it's powers, she uses precognition to preemptively jail those who oppose her. Her most worrying vision is of Link, and upon arrival, he finds himself in conflict with the Hylian army. His only ally is Ganondorf, a powerful Gerudo sorcerer trying to restore balance to the land. He has been imprisoned by Zelda and is unable to fight back against her tyranny. So it's up to Link to try and break whatever dark spell has come over this land, and find his way home to the real Hyrule. Oh, and you turn into this really badass demon Link with this huge sword."

And I assumed some switching between Hyrule and Termina in a young Link/old Link fashion, with the events in one world subtly effecting the other. And I did kind of want that game...

[rayne85]

One thing that could be interesting to try or see, would be having some npcs aiding you. Much like at the end of TP when the Hylians aid you in zelda castle, (rusl etc) having co dependant characters to help you or likewise, hinder you, another vision of this was metroid prime 3: corruption with the other hunters, at first they were helping you but then they turn. something like this could be interesting, and could add a little more npc depth alongside main character development.. Something that i just thought of to add to this is Kingdom Hearts 2, with the roxas / sora twist, maybe something like that too

[FDL]

Alright, initially I thought I'd just not respond to this stuff after I saw the thing KeeSomething said about derailing the topic. However, I've changed my mind. I feel that while opinions can differ, both opinions should get equal coverage. Perhaps from reading what I say, or what KeeSomething or CID say, people can look at these games in a different light. Thus, I decided to respond to these posts.

I have to agree with that. There's a definite change in Midna from beginning to end. What I have a problem with is that the entire game drops off halfway through.

How so? As I've mentioned before, pretty much every Zelda game puts the main story on hold halfway through the game. The only ones that don't that I can think of are MM, LoZ and TMC.

But that's just it, it's completely dependent on those two games to even make sense. TP is a game that, supposedly, is easy for any person new to Zelda to pick up the game and not be dependent on prior knowledge of the series to understand.

Except it's not.

They went out of their way to do things like eliminate the word "Triforce" (which to my knowledge is never uttered) but at the same time it's obviously there, and obviously very important to the plot. The only reason Ganondorf's actions make sense is if he's after the Triforce, but the game implies he's not; he just wants to take over the world. Except he's obviously got the ToP (and Link and Zelda have ToC and ToW, respectively,) except it's not the 'Triforce', it's the 'Power of the Gods.' The game both relies on prior knowledge for the last part make sense, but at the same time makes no sense with knowledge of prior games.

See, that's a good point and that truly is a genuine flaw in the game. However, I don't think the elimination of the word "Triforce" was necessarily done for the reason you say it is and I think you're sort of exagerrating this as an issue.

TP is just generally confused. The first part of the game has nothing to do with any prior Zelda, and almost feels like they weren't even making a Zelda game at that point. I would have adjusted, and probably been okay with it being a Zelda game(albeit a vastly different Zelda game,) but then it jumps to OoT all over again (when you get the Master Sword, but there's some scattered lead up before that.) It very much feels like the developers couldn't decide what they were doing with the game, and changed their minds constantly during development. If, as you say, the same thing happened during OoT, at least it is a decent stand-alone game, and you don't get halfway through and feel like you're playing a different game than an hour ago.

This, however, I just completely disagree with. MM was probably the best Zelda game, nay, the best game I have ever played and it had little to do with Zelda. OoT itself, which is attributed with bringing the "Zelda feel" into 3D had many, many things that were different from any previous games. Furthermore, OoT didn't even mention the MS at all until you actually saw it and completely leaves it up to you to know what it is. Des that make it not feel Zelda-y?

That's got to be the thing I like least about these topics. I hear people going off about how "It would be awesome to have [feature] in Zelda. Something like in [that one game]." Um, no?. Zelda should be like The Legend of Zelda. If they're going to do something different and new, then it should be--wait for it--something different and new. Something that blows everyone away. Not a synthesis with some other piece of media.

I agree that something needs to change, that there needs to be something new in Zelda, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be transformed into a different (especially an existing) game.

Yeah, that's kinda my point. While I want the new Zelda to be new and even better than any before it, I do not want them to remove everything Zelda-y from the game. Indeed, that's ome of what bothered me about the more recent Zelda titles.

I suggest you read the wise word of Hylian Dan.

Way to only use quotes that agree with your argument. Besides that, I'm not debating that TP is better than MM. Ask anyone who knows me, they'll tell you that a game that I've given nothing but glowing praise to is MM. However, MM is really the exception, not the rule. OoT, ALttP, TMC, and TWW, all classics themselves, have dialogue that is no better than TP's. And that's what my main point is. While TP was not the game that blew all others out of the water like we had hoped for, if you compare it to the other Zelda games, it was equal to or better than a majority of them. MM was much better than TP, sure, but if you compare any game to MM it comes up short.

You are really taking this personally. I suggest you relax because comments as childish as "I
guess that can be overlooked just so you can hate on this game some more" only weaken your arguement.

I am not, in fact, taking this personally. I just have seen people use arguments like yours before. While you may have some good points, it's bogged down because you complain every little slight problem in this game. Just because you were disappointed by certain things doesn't mean everything in the game sucked.

Anyways, about Zant: Seeing him on his throne triggers him to become insane. Yes, the flashblack implies that he was crazy all along, but all the previous cutscenes say otherwise. Ther eis no forshadowing that implied that he was crazy, either. You just watch up to him while he is sitting on his throne, and he just goes crazy.... Did I miss something? Using the flashback is just a cheap tatic or trick on the player "Oh, guess what? He was crazy all along!" It doesn't make him any more developed, it just shows that the writers got bored with Zant, and decided to chance his entire character.

I completely disagree. The first scene you see him in has him talking to himself. The second time you see him, when he attacks Midna and Link, he talks to Midna about how their people were slighted. The way the scene ends up being portrayed you can clearly feel a palpable anger, barely below the surface. As for your claim that it adds nothing to story, I disagree. It made a stark contrast between him and Ganondorf, and really added to the whole idea of Zant being changed by power. When you see his true self you realize that the line between him and Ganondorf has been blurred, something which comes into play later.

I suggest you play Majora's Mask, and pay attention to the character Tatl. She is Midna's prototype, but written much better. She is snotty and rude, just like Midna, but she slowly gains more respect for Link throughout your adventure. Even at the end, when Tatl tells Link that she admires him, she still keeps her personality.

Midna, however, loses her personality completely. He goes from a sadistic bitch, to a goody-goody. Now, it's understandable that her respect for Link and Zelda would grow, but when she loses everything that made her a great character in the first half of the game, you know the trasition was done poorly.

You're wrong, quite simply. In fact the sidekick was one of the few things that I would say without any doubt is better in TP. Her development just simply isn't done poorly, something which Fyxe and I have already covered. I've no need to repeat myself.

I recommend you rewatch the Dark Link cutscene. It clearly implies that the Fused Shadows can corrupt the wearer (Midna, noy Link; I never said Link would turn evil), and there was nothing that built on that concept.

It did come into play later on though. The Fused Shadows may not have been used in the exact way you believed they would, but the idea of power corrupting people was used [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] in Zant's character arc.

Incorrect, Ocarina of Time continued to give you motivation to defeat Ganondorf. Think back:
-Kokiri Forest, your home, is taken over by Ganondorf's monsters. Saria went to the Forets Tmple to stop the source, but she needs your help.
-Lon Lon Ranch becomes corrupt by Ingo, who is trying to please Ganondorf.
-Ganondorf unleashes the Bongo Bongo from the Shadow Temple. Kakariko almost burns down after this happens.
-Ganondorf revives Volgeria, and has imprisoned all the Gorons to the Fire Temple to get eaten by Volgeria.
-Hyrule Castle Town is destroyed completely, and Hyrule Castle is now gone. It's not Ganon's Castle.
-Zora's Domain get frozen over, and you are told by Shiek that Ruto is still alive, and she is in the Water Temple.

.... There is a lot of new stories happening after you get the Maste Sword in Ocarina of Time. Of course, you don't see that because "you're so bias." Just kidding, but perhaps you should stay away fro mthe personal insults, ya?

I thought you meant that the main story stopped in the second half, which was done in most Zelda games. Besides, there were new stories after you get the Master Sword, they just weren't in the same areas as they had been before. That's natural, really, as OoT's time travel mechanic is really what made that system of returning to each place work. Plus, you didn't sufficiently respond to the fact that TWW and ALttP are in a similar situation to what you percieve TP to be in despite the fact that you claimed them to be superior to TP in writing. Why do you say they are so far superior when they also stall the main storyline for gameplay purposes.

Like I've said, Wind Waker had its fair share of stalling, but Ganondorf was far more active (and developed) in Wind Waker than in Twilight Princess. You see him 2 times before the final battle. The first time, he beats you up and throws you into the see. The second time Valoo burns down his fortress.... Well, you know the story. I'm getting tired of writing it all out. The fact is: Ganondorf was just thrown into Twilight Princess to please the OoT fanboys. He doesn't do anything at all accept put a barrier around that Castle that no one notices, and he sits on his throne... not even knowing who Link is. And, somehow, he has Zelda, too.

I disgaree. While Ganondorf's appearance was somewhat of a "remember him?" deal, it wasn't really in the way you claim. There was [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] that implied he was behind everything before he actually showed up. Plus, it added to theme of duality between the two worlds in several ways, as well as making us see that the two world mixing was a mutually bad thing.

I never said anything about Harvest Moon, I said I don't want Zelda to be like Oblivion, and I just mentioned SotC's bosses (I actually stated that I want Zelda's boss battles to be more like Metroid Prime's). This really isn't too much to ask for considering how Majora's Mask did almost everything right, and it was only developed in 2 years. Not to mention that was two console generations and 8 years ago.

That wasn't only directed towards you, that was directed to the general idea that Zelda needs to be heavily changed. MM didn't really heavily revamp Zelda and it was still amazing.

Anyway, I don't care if people respond to this or not. In fact I'd rather people don't just so this thread doesn't get anymore derailed. I just wanted to add my rebuttal to this discussion. Perhaps I'll post some of what I'd want in the next one later.

[rayne85]

but you see thats the beauty of zelda games, everyone experiences it in different ways, and i do agree with a lot of what you say

i think there is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] that could be done to the zelda series that would make it the best game ever created and its evident from seeing it here

[Xkeeper]

Derailing topics is fun.

For me, I would rather see a story that didn't involve any of the currently-established character cliches. No triforce (not even one on the left/right/whatever hand). No Ganon, no Zelda. No Impa, either. Or Hyrule. No stereotypical Master Sword that isn't really the master of anything, either.

(Guess what? Yeah, it's a lot like Link's Awakening, which becomes my favorite further and further because of the reuse of these cliches.)

No more stupid, dragging-you-by-the-hands-kicking-and-screaming HOW TO DO BASIC THINGS tutorial from some dumb idiot. Here, Link, here's your sword, now go look up the manual for instructions.

No Fairy companion either, or other following-and-annoying NPC. Except maybe occasionally as a story sequence or something.

No cliched "_______ Temple" dungeons. No remixes of the same song from Ocarina of Time or LTTP for the 9th time, either. New stuff, maybe with an occasional, rare throwback to something older.

For fixing the items, make new weapons Link can use, Secret of Mana style. Provide him with a bunch that can do various things and have different advantages and disadvantages over using a sword instead of making them useful for only one or two things.

Basically, Link's Awakening.
Maybe having one or two token towns with a bit of character development as the game progresses. None's really needed.


(I read little of the thread. It's mostly just bickering.)