89 replies to this topic

[Eblel]

I'm going to agree with KeeSomething. I understand what he/she means, in that from A Link to the Past onwards, the main entries in the series have re-used A Link to the Past's recipe. Imagine a cake. You want it to taste sweet, but have a rough, chewy texture. Those are elements you want the cake to have, so you bake it. It works so well that you add some extra stuff to it (essences, spices, etc), and then you've got a perfect formula. But then you start adding other ingredients to future versions of the cake (cherries, tuna, etc), but everyone's starting to get bored of it, and it's still the same cake you created 16 years ago, no matter how much you've added. Zelda's the same - almost every major game in the series has been a new incarnation of A Link to the Past - starting from fresh and building everything new around those core elements Kee listed on page 1 would give a new Zelda a chance to grow into whatever it wants to be, because it's not following a stringent set of rules set down by a game released 16 years ago.

What I'd like is to throw all the ingredients out the window, and bake a new cake that has those core elements again - sweetness, roughness, and chewyness. Bonza!

So I'd:

- Condense all Zelda's puzzles into an overworld, as Kee suggested. I didn't much care for TP's empty space, so imagine taking all those fields and placing every puzzle from each dungeon within those fields. And mixing them all up. Doing this would allow for more puzzle solving in the outdoors and more unusual areas (towns), and for making every item useful all over the map.

- Get rid of the fire/desert/typical ice themes, and instead design a weird, surreal world with its own distinct charm. Think of the Clock Tower from Majora's Mask, and the moon leering over it. Teapot/boot houses! An area full of mirrors glinting from the moon's glow...

- Perhaps a co-op mode where 1 other player can join you online, and you can both solve puzzles together, by typing in suggestions. Players could opt in and out of co-op whenever they please; it's just when you feel like it in the main game. Also, I feel you should be able to put custom designs on objects/tunics. Then you'd be able to put them online, and they might randomly appear in a chest in someone else's game.

- Getting involved in the lives and adventures of other NPC's, like Majora's Mask. A personal journey, as Kee suggested would be awesome, as it allows you to connect more to Link. You feel as if you are questing to find out more about Link/others, rather than Link and other NPC's being just a way of observing/explaining a big plot that just boils down to another world conquering thing.

- Perhaps the problem of not being able to buy items from shops whilst out in the field could be solved by... having items delievered to a nearby postbox in a dungeon/puzzle area.

- Some platforming elements mixed in (manual jumping), and a huge push for using the pointer for an item you can aim and manipulate the world with. You could have an item you could open windows with, allowing you to draw around an area in front of you to see it in any of the four seasons. When you are satisfied, you'd press a button and the window would disappear, leaving the area you drew around leafy/snowy, etc. You could even draw muliple windows in an area, or use a season 'window' as a portal to change the entire area into a different season.

- Cel-shading, except with Oracle-style character models!

Edited by Eblel, 29 April 2008 - 11:04 PM.

[N Guy]

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that NPCs are irrelevant (not to my experience, at least) or "not good". I've always felt that they've fundamentally contributed to the overall experience of the franchise. Several NPCs throughout the series have served roles nonessential to the main quest, yes, but have augmented the replayability aspect extensively, as well as possessing unique qualities capable of enhancing a gamer's memorable experiences with the series. Admittedly, TP mostly lacked good NPCs, but I personally would be very disappointed in the franchise if they were generally detracted from the games in their entirety.

Edited by N Guy, 12 May 2008 - 02:20 PM.

[Raien]

The problem with NPCs in Zelda is that Nintendo has an annoying habit of using them as instruction manuals. It breaks the immersion when every other character has lines like "Touch the pot to pick it up and touch somewhere else to throw it in that direction". If they don't have instructions to give, Nintendo just gives them uninteresting dialogue like "I like my house, but sometimes I want to sail to a faraway land."

In other immersive adventure games, third-party developers are making deeper NPCs that are more involved in their general surroundings. Zelda (and likewise Okami) feels dated in comparison. TWW was the closest to developing interesting characters that communicate with each other (TP created some realistic dialogue for the "adult" setting, but the dialogue was uninteresting nonetheless), and I'd like to see Nintendo work from the standard of that game. If Nintendo aren't going to bother with developing characters, I can agree with other people here that including those characters just isn't worth it. If anything, I like the idea of an artistic-looking yet uninhabited landscape.

Edited by Raian, 13 May 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[N Guy]

I can see your point on that; Perhaps I was referring specifically to TWW more than most other installments. More interesting character development would be a nice addition to the franchise (it's a shame that TP was a considerable step back from TWW in this respect), but an overworld with hardly any NPCs at all isn't really much of a significant change than an overworld with several uninteresting/underdeveloped ones. Not that it's necessarily a flaw; it's just ultimately the same in the sense that the latter could also convey a feeling of desolation. It's definitely not what I'd prefer, but to each their own. In terms of my vision - as the topic suggests - I say give us more TWW-esque NPCs.

Edited by N Guy, 14 May 2008 - 07:07 PM.

[D~N]

"Link is going to be trapped in Termina, a mirror land of Hyrule where everything is backwards. Your friends are no longer your friends, but corrupted versions of their Hyrule selves. In Termina, it's Princess Zelda that's the enemy. Using the Triforce of Wisdom and it's powers, she uses precognition to preemptively jail those who oppose her. Her most worrying vision is of Link, and upon arrival, he finds himself in conflict with the Hylian army. His only ally is Ganondorf, a powerful Gerudo sorcerer trying to restore balance to the land. He has been imprisoned by Zelda and is unable to fight back against her tyranny. So it's up to Link to try and break whatever dark spell has come over this land, and find his way home to the real Hyrule. Oh, and you turn into this really badass demon Link with this huge sword."

YES. I'd buy that on day 1!

--
My vision is somewhat new. I have previously said I want a deep combat system. That is true, but maybe we can return to that in another Zelda experience. For Wii's next Zelda outing, I want a point-and-click adventure. Imagine Zak & Wiki with a sword, temples, and bosses. Yes, I'm talking about mind-boggling puzzles in our temple. Take a zak and wiki stumper and put it in the dungeon, and then I wont even CARE if he has a sword or not.

After that, the bosses will need reworking. But imagine if instead of today's bosses where the puzzle is a matter of finding the weak point, the puzzles within the bosses became just as elaborate as the dungeon's puzzles themselves. Like a boss that is low - moderate on fighting, but really will stump you. Like, I want to be sitting there scratching my head, "How do I beat this damn thing?!" Bosses, in this way, can avoid being "stun once, attack 3 times, stun again, attack 3 times, -transform- stun again, attack 3 times, win."

6 Dungeons. That's perfect if they put some empphasis on what's going on outside the dungeons. I, like everyone here, want some MM-style NPC development. That idea from before about evil versions of everyone sounded perfect, but if not, just some good ol' NPC's will do, so long as they're well developed. Like, you don't have to give them scheduled appointments, but come on, a little more than "I'm Ingo the ranch hand. I'm underpayed and angry sometimes." would be appreciated. Give them some life, take some pride in your characters. And more allies! TP was so right with that idea. Lets have some more. And if the villian is original (as I would hope,) then maybe we can even get Ganondorf as an ally. And maybe allies can be an important part of the dungeon puzzle solving. Perhaps sometimes you'll need to come back with a taller character to reach a ledge previously out of reach. Or maybe your party will be with you at all times.

They have the technology, the talent, the potential to do something great, and the opportunity on the Wii. Lets just hope they can achieve this.

[Raien]

I think when it comes to proper combat, bosses are the best place to test the player's skill. I certainly think bosses are more interesting than waves of enemies, which is why I would like to see an end to puzzle-bosses (at least on the console games). I believe that the satisfaction one gets from overcoming a challenge is called "fiero" and the purpose of bosses has always been to provide fiero. So it's rather sad that Zelda bosses don't deliver that.

[NM87]

The problem with NPCs in Zelda is that Nintendo has an annoying habit of using them as instruction manuals. It breaks the immersion when every other character has lines like "Touch the pot to pick it up and touch somewhere else to throw it in that direction". If they don't have instructions to give, Nintendo just gives them uninteresting dialogue like "I like my house, but sometimes I want to sail to a faraway land."

Comedy Gold.

Anyway, my biggest wish is the music. Nothing specific, just make it more grand. I don't have suggestions. Also, keep more of the old tunes and add just as many new ones. I don't care if the tune is only played in one room in the game, just have it there!

[Marty]

This has been quite an interesting thread to read. I like some of the suggestions made but ultimately I think that the developers of Zelda should continue in their current direction. I enjoyed PH and TP far more than WW and actually felt that they were more creative, more creative than even OoT. OoT was about transforming Zelda into 3D and this was accomplished extremely well, but it followed the mould more closely than recent games and they were right to do so in order to ensure the game was Zelda.

PH was mostly another new interface exercise like OoT, but it really challanged the formula by having a revisited dungeon. This could have been disastrous but the Ocean King's Temple was my favourite part of the game. It was also a much shorter adventure, but I feel that they actually got it just right with the length. The story gripped me the entire time and the final boss with all of the stages to it held the right degree of epic for this particular title. As such, I've replayed the game 4 times already, a new record for me with Zelda replays.

TP did have new interface elements, but these were clearly added near the end of development. Well executed, but the creativity was clearly focused elsewhere and that was story telling. I agree with many of the posts in this thread, they didn't finish the job they started. But to be perfectly honest, there aren't many 40-hour-epics that I haven't criticised about having the exact same problem. I also agree with many of the criticisms made against the NPCs, but rather than losing the NPCs I'd actually like to see Nintendo try again. They made an excellent start, maybe another attempt will see them get 2/3 of the way. If they made a return to the depth of character seen in OoT I think it would be a step in the wrong direction. Not that it was poor, its just times have moved on since then.

I disagree that Zelda bosses and dungeons need to be more difficult. My fiance finds the Zelda games to be quite challanging. Its not like she doesn't play games normally or is poor at puzzles, she just hasn't clocked up over a 1000 hours of Zelda gaming to know all the tricks. And there are enough new tricks in each instalment to keep me swearing at the console into the early hours of the morning.

[Chaltab]

My biggest desire for the franchise is for Hyrule (or wherever the game is set) should feel like a real living breath world. I know that phrase is cliche, but it's usually used to describe big city sand box games like Grand Theft Auto. I don't think Zelda needs to do that; the setting can still be small and localized as long as it feels like a real place. Make the NPC's react realistically to you going into their house and smashing their stuff; make a seven-day schedule that works like the three-day schedule of Majora's Mask on a grander scale, so that all the NPCs are at certain places at certain times on certain days, (but left with a few random variables to prevent it from being such an obvious cycle).

Combat needs to be a bit harder.. not all of it should be Cave of Ordeals hard, but just remember to challenge us. The puzzle bosses need to stay because it's hard to make a good non-puzzle boss in a 3D game and I'd rather have a good boss that's easy to beat than an exercise in frustration.

And delve into the rest of the franchise instead of mining Ocarina of Time for all it's worth. Give us items that haven't appeared in the 3D games before, like the fire rod, Roc's Feather, and the Magnetic Glove.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I'm seeing a lot more "NO MORE (things i didnt like about some games)!" than any new or fresh ideas that aren't utter bollocks. '
My idea? Acid trip. We need to show off the Wii's hardware by making everything go just a bit queer. If the sky's not a lava lamp next time around, I'm going to be disappointed. Some kinda spirit of madness needs to show up and severely screw with reality til the walls start melting.
It'd certainly make labyrinths more fun if the map was constantly changing while you were trying to navigate.. and the enemies could do warped versions of what's becoming somewhat boring at this point... like a wallmaster putting you god knows where, instead of the entrance.. or dodongos that love eating bombs, and keep eating them before you can get to them.. That's nostalgia married to originality
Most of all, I kinda miss guesswork guesswork was fun.

[Chaltab]

I'm seeing a lot more "NO MORE (things i didnt like about some games)!" than any new or fresh ideas that aren't utter bollocks. '

My idea? Acid trip.

To be fair, I think quite a few people would consider that idea utter bollocks.

[Raien]

I would like to see a more visually artistic approach to Hyrule, like the landscape that was created in Lost Winds. To turn that into a real virtual space would be fantastic; I can't think of one game where such a style was put to good effect.

Edited by Raian, 18 May 2008 - 07:33 PM.

[Chaltab]

I would like to see a more visually artistic approach to Hyrule, like the landscape that was created in Lost Winds. To turn that into a real virtual space would be fantastic; I can't think of one game where such a style was put to good effect.

That would be gorgeous. The attempted realism of Twilight Princess looked great in some parts, but stylistically the game didn't really do it for me. Death Mountain had terrible textures, the various fields were too bland, etc. Only the dungeons and watery parts of the overworld really had character.

Lost Worlds is an example of a style that would work great with Zelda. Even something more akin to Wind Waker, only with more detailed textures and lighting effects would be great.

[Raien]

Lost Worlds is an example of a style that would work great with Zelda. Even something more akin to Wind Waker, only with more detailed textures and lighting effects would be great.

You mean Lost Winds and I completely agree. I just downloaded the game today and I think this landscape would be absolutely perfect for a Zelda game. It blends the stylism with realism; it captures the myth of the hero and can still appeal to people of all ages.

[Xkeeper]

The problem with NPCs in Zelda is that Nintendo has an annoying habit of using them as instruction manuals. It breaks the immersion when every other character has lines like "Touch the pot to pick it up and touch somewhere else to throw it in that direction". If they don't have instructions to give, Nintendo just gives them uninteresting dialogue like "I like my house, but sometimes I want to sail to a faraway land."

That's one of my biggest problems with games these days, especially Zelda ones.

You can't do anything without getting a 20-minute explanation and demonstration of how to use things.

Older ones (like Zelda 1, for example) just gave you an item (e.g. sword) and let you figure out how to use it. Now, it's more like BE SURE TO DO THIS TO SWING IT RIGHT and IF YOU HAVE FULL HEALTH IT SHOOTS LASERS.

Or (heaven forbid) "<Navi Clone 2> HEY LINK I THINK WE CAN USE THIS HOOKSHOT ON THE GIANT TARGETS SAYING 'HOOKSHOT GOES HERE'".

I liked it better when you were just told in what direction to go and you got to figure out most of the rest yourself.

[Masamune]

Ideally they should leave explanations for items in the Items menu. Just let us press a button to get all the information on it we could possibly need.

[Zeruda]

I have to agree that Nintendo should stop using the NPCs as instruction manuals and give them some more personality. One thing that really stood out to me in Twilight Princess was the character Hena. You don't really interact with her all that much, but she was booming with personality. Even seeing that "itching trait" being passed down from the fishing guy in OoT really made me laugh. Nintendo has been improving on this, but I think they could take it a step farther. In PH, a few of the NPCs had some personality and background story. Remember the archery game owner and his father? That was pretty good. Jolene, her sister, and Linebeck, those were good, too. I don't know how many of you have played FF: CC from WiiWare, but they really got the character story/relations down in that game. It'd be nice to see something similar in a Zelda game.

I do think that dungeons, bosses, and overall battles need to be more difficult. The difficulty went downhill once Zelda went 3D, and I'd like to have a challenge again. Mind you, it doesn't have to be so hard that you'd pull your hair out in frustration, but being able to beat these game with 3 hearts is just ridiculous.

Sword tempering and upgrading should make a return! Remember the quests to get your sword tempered and upgraded in ALttP? It was so exciting to have that newfound power. And then, in MM, you could upgrade your sword to something stronger for a limited time. Seeing stuff like that reappear would definitely make side quests more interesting.

But what about graphics? I think they should do something a little different. I loved the cel-shading in TWW. It was bright, vivid, and beautiful. Mind you, it wouldn't need the same art style (big heads & eyes, tiny feet, etc), but the cel-shaded coloring style was beautiful. But at the same time, many people preferred TP's more realistic graphics. Those were lovely, too, and allowed for different types of detail. What I'd personally like to see is something along the lines of soft-cel-shading. Those who have played Fire Emblem: RD/PoR know what I'm talking about. The coloring and artwork was absolutely stunning, and it'd allow Nintendo to keep the whole "anime-like" style they've been using.

[Raien]

One thing that got my attention in LostWinds was the character Notea, for the simple reason that his dialogue took advantage of the English language ("No cave too cavernous... No river to ravenous... No monster too monstrous... etc") and I'm reminded of the recent Japanese translations of Zelda games in which various puns are pointed out that don't exist in the English translation. And so one thing I'd like to see is grammatical jokes better brought across in translations; it can make a simple piece of dialogue much more interesting.

Edited by Raian, 04 June 2008 - 08:50 PM.

[Eblel]

I have to agree that Nintendo should stop using the NPCs as instruction manuals and give them some more personality. One thing that really stood out to me in Twilight Princess was the character Hena. You don't really interact with her all that much, but she was booming with personality.

Strangely enough, the three characters that stood out for me were Hena and her brother and sister. If all the characters had personalities as vivid as those, Twilight Princess might've struck up a bit of competition for Majora's Mask.

I totally agree on the cel-shading. I'll admit right now to being very excited when Twilight Princess' artstyle was first shown instead of a cel-shaded Wind Waker follow-up, but now... I really do want another cel-shaded Zelda. Nintendo listened to the fans, but I honestly think the fans were wrong on that occasion.

LostWinds' style? Yes, absolutely agree - I thought exactly same. Some of the artwork was especially beautiful for that game.

Edited by Eblel, 05 June 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[Xkeeper]

I totally agree on the cel-shading. I'll admit right now to being very excited when Twilight Princess' artstyle was first shown instead of a cel-shaded Wind Waker follow-up, but now... I really do want another cel-shaded Zelda. Nintendo listened to the fans, but I honestly think the fans were wrong on that occasion.

Personally, I hate cel-shading in most cases. Zelda is one of those.

I think it's more of a subjective taste in that there is no definite "better". It should suit the mood.

Majora's Mask would not look good cel-shaded.

Edited by Xkeeper, 05 June 2008 - 10:55 PM.

[Showsni]

I don't know how many of you have played FF: CC from WiiWare, but they really got the character story/relations down in that game.

Is that... Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles? Or some other acronym?

[Raien]

Is that... Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles? Or some other acronym?

Yes, he means the game also known as "My Life as a King" (which is set in the FF:CC universe).

Anyway, thinking about Wiiware has got me thinking about a possible direction for Zelda (although not the next direction for Zelda; I'm thinking spin-offs). What I've realised is that traditional myths are better associated with artwork than characters, because the stories are ultimately driven by actions. That is why Twilight Princess, a game that more closely followed the traditional myth archetype, did better for concentrating on it's visuals, whereas The Wind Waker, a game that put emphasis on character, established a visual style that was better able to depict character.

So what I think would be interesting is if Nintendo did a Twelve Tasks of Heracles style game for Wiiware, in which Link travels across the world, facing challenges from various spirits and demons. What I think this would entail is a variety of small sandbox stages in which Link must fight a variety of different monsters and solve a variety of different puzzles, with the strategies changing from one challenge to the next. This, I think, would take better advantage of the traditional myth archetype than a free-world game in which characters are becoming ever-more important.

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 05:52 PM.

[Showsni]

I could only remember 8 of them when I tried earlier. Let's try again...
Nemean Lion
Erymanthian Boar
Stymphalian Birds
Capture of Cerberus
Apples of the Hesperides
Girdle of Hippolyta
Stable of Augeas
Lernean Hydra
...
Dang, what am I missing? Hm...
Oh, the
Cerynitian Hind
Mares of Diomedes
Cretan Bull
Cattle of Geryon

[Raien]

My point is that a linear, character-less game would fit the traditional myth archetype better than a full-scale explorative Zelda game, and it would be more accessible to people on Wii Ware than a full-scale explorative Zelda game. I can just imagine all these bizaare landscapes and short storylines that would be fantastic but not workable in a strict Hyrule-like setting.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Hena is, I hope, a prototype for future NPCs. They probably didn't have the time to program in more, so they gave us one person and area that we could enjoy to the fullest
...
But seriously.. I wanna see some psychedelia. The colors, duke, THE COLORS!

[Chaltab]

I think it's more of a subjective taste in that there is no definite "better". It should suit the mood.

Majora's Mask would not look good cel-shaded.

Neither would Twilight Princess for that matter. Nobody is saying that those games should be cel shaded, just that it worked for the series once, so why not a similar style the next time a whimsical game comes along? Like you said, it should suit the mood of the individual game.

*mulls it over* Actually, Majora's Mask could look great cel-shaded if they did it right. It would look terrible in Wind Waker style, but if they used the same basic art direction and cell-shaded it with Wii-caliber graphical power, it would look fantastic.

[Duke Serkol]

seriously.. I wanna see some psychedelia. The colors, duke, THE COLORS!

Sorry but no, I can't help you with that.

[SOAP]

I demand to see some celshading like they have in the new Prince of Persia: Heir Apparent.

[Eblel]

The new Prince of Persia does look very nice.

*mulls it over* Actually, Majora's Mask could look great cel-shaded if they did it right. It would look terrible in Wind Waker style, but if they used the same basic art direction and cell-shaded it with Wii-caliber graphical power, it would look fantastic.

Yup. Looking at the art for Majora's Mask - specifically the big one with the moon and Skull Kid lingering in the background - I'd actually say cel-shading would work a treat for a similar styled Zelda game. Like you say, the bright colours of Wind Waker wouldn't work, but if all the colours weren't primary colours (making them a little darker), and there were more colours, it'd look amazing. Majora's artwork was broody, with darker colours. It's like composing a picture with acrylics, whereas Wind Waker would've been a picture composed in regular coloured pencils.

[SOAP]

Actually the Earth Temple is kinda how imagine MM would look like.