89 replies to this topic

[KeeSomething]

I'm bringing the ZU thread over here. Just as you guessed, this thread is to post how you'd develop the next Zelda game.

Here is my post from ZU:

For the next Zelda game, I'd like a simple story that doesn't have anything to do with destiny or fate; rather, a personal journey, much like Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening. I feel it takes away a lot from the game world when your character is given a destiny, and when everyone treats him as a hero, so a personal quest for Link would be ideal.

The great thing about a simple story is how you can really focus on the characters, and if you think about, great characters are what make a story memorable and fun. A simple story also gives developers more room to be creative in terms of how to develop characters, and how the gameplay will factor in.
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Next, I'd like a lot of focus put into the soundtrack. I think it would be a good idea to completely start from stratch, and have no old themes return except the classic overworld theme. This would really help give the game a its own identity, and while it may feel strange not to have all the classic themes return at first, when you get teased by little pieces of the
Zelda theme, you'll feel happy, until the whole theme finally plays at the very end of the game. At this point, fans will be crying from nostalgia.

As for the sound of the tracks, I'm not sure what I'd go for. It really depends on the rest of the atmosphere: dark or light, cheery or lonely, etc. If the atmosphere is more lonely, I'd definitely go with something similar to the ambient techno used in the Metroid Prime games. But if the tone is light and cheery, I'd certainly go for a more lively, adventurous sound.
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The Overworld Design-

The world in my Zelda would not be as black and white as it is in other Zelda games. In Zelda games, you have towns, dungeons, and the overworld. While it is nice to have variation, I think it would be a vast improvement to get rid of the thick line between each. This would make the overworld more interesting, less predictable, and more demanding to explore. Just think of it this way: wouldn't it be cool to just scale a giant mountain that consists of little caves, random enemy bases, and some boss battles? You'll be thinking to yourself: "Was that a dungeon?" How about wandering into some random forest, only to be chased out by a giant Gohma?

Another factor that should be improved is the exploration. The player should be rewarded when they explore. The player should be teased by areas they can't yet access yet to motivate them to continue exploring. Remember when you were younger, and you play Link's Awakening for the first time? Remember being teased by being able to see some ledge with a chest or a cave above you, but you couldn't reach that ledge yet because you didn't have the hookshot or whatever? Wasn't it extremely rewarding to finally get that hookshot or the item you needed to get there? Remember searching the entire overworld, and talking to all the people to figure out who you needed to give the fishing hook to? After all that, remember being rewarded with the best item in the game--the boomerang?

As Hylian Dan has said in one of his past posts, gamers like to be teased. They like to have bait in front of them to follow. They also like to be rewarded. If I were making a Zelda game, I'd make sure I put a lot of effort into this area.
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Dungeons-

How about no dungeons? Yes, that sounds crazy, but think back to my speech about how cool it would be to blend in the overworld with dungeons and towns. I'm guess not saying that Zelda shouldn't have dungeons, I'm just saying the ideas for dungeons should mix more into the overworld. That way, you see, the overworld itself is really one massive dungeon that is dieing to be explored-- A huge dungeon filled with forests, lakes, mountains, caves, towns, people, monsters, bosses, puzzles, etc. That would really allow the player to play the game at his or her own pace. A design like this would be completely nonlinear, much like the original Zelda, and it would allow you to complete the game the way you want to. A perfect example of a game that pulled this off is Metroid Prime, but I think Zelda could do an even better job.

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Items-

Another gameplay flaw I see with a lot of Zeldas is the limited use of items. While it is cool to have a ton of items that do all kinds of things, I think it would be better to have far less items, but use them far more frequently. Does Link really need 20 different items? I don't think so. It also bothers me how in the more recent Zeldas, you can only defeat bosses using the dungeon weapon you got-- only one strategy. In Majora's Mask, you are given so much freedom in boss battles. For example, the final battle allows you to finish Majora in any form (there are even hidden plants for Deku Link). Not only that, but all the dungeons in Majora's Mask were designed for you to use all the items you had up to that point, not just the most recent item/ability you've obtained. Stone Tower Temple is the perfect example.

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Boss Battles-

To go back to the boss battles, Zelda bosses need a revamp for sure. They are not even battles anymore, just simple puzzles that, onced figured out (which shouldn't be too hard), you can walk through without worrying about dieing. Now, if I were in charge, this would not fly by me. I would take inspiration from Metroid Prime, Shadow of the Colossus, and Majora's Mask for the boss battles. Tp be more specific, I'd mix things up. Some battles would be brawls that didn't require you to 'solve' the enemies weakness. Other battles would require you to find their weakness, but you'd still have to fight to stay alive, even after you "figured them out." Notice how even after you find the boss's weak point in Metroid Prime, you still have trouble defeating it because they don't just let you attack. Same with in Shadow of the Colossus, bosses are huge puzzles that need to be solved, but even after you solve them, it is a challenge to scale and defeat them.

I guess I'll be even more specific: bosses will try kill you, and not just try to hid their weak point.
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Shops-
I really want to make shops more useful. Making shops more useful may seem like a small improvement, but I assure you it could drastically improve the games quality and challenge.

First of all, something that currently annoys me with the Zelda games is how I always have a full wallet with nothing to buy. How do you solve this problem? Make shops more useful, of course! How, you ask? Well, the solution will fix this problem as well as another problem... You know how hearts, magic jars, arrows, and bombs are always flying out of bushes and enemies? They are quite useful indeed, and it would be a pity if enemies and plants didn't drop them.... Do you see where I'm going with this? Yes, I'd make it so you could only find arrows, hearts (red potions), magic jars (green potions), and bombs in shops (and treasure chests). This would a) make shops far more useful, b) add more challenge to the game, and c) make rupees much more important to collect.

However, I wouldn't just stop there. I'd put specific shops that upgrade you weapons or abilities for a high prices. Of course, these abilities wouldn't be required to beat the game, but they'd make it more fun and easier to progress through. You want to learn the downward thrust? That'll cost you 3000 rupees. Huh? You want that crossbow? Well, I hope you can spare 5000 rupees.
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Enemies-

I'd make enemies more of a threat to the point where you could no longer just fly through a group of 10 Lizafols. You'd have to pick your battles, and play it smart because being outnumbered by foes with weapons would leave you at a major disadvantage. After all, they work together, set traps, attack relentlessly, and even call in reinforcements if you don't take out the leader fast enough. Now, as you become more skilled with your sword, gain new abilities and weapons, and increase your hearts, you may stand a chance, but you better have some potions because this is still not going to be easy. You may just want to play it safe, and shoot them with your bow from a long, safe distance.

The 3D Zelda battle engine is excellent. It really is, but the enemies have been way to easy to showcase the complexity. Even Majora's Mask, I feel, failed in pushing the battle system to its limits (though, it did the best job so far; TP came close too with its cave of ordeals). Think about it, you have all these moves like side-jumping, back-flipping, rolling, and etc. How often do you really take advantage of these abilties in order to survive an intense battle? Probably never, and that's a real shame.

Enemies must be tougher! Zelda II does get a lot of crap from fans, but I respect it in the sense that each ability you learn becomes EXTREMELY useful in battle. Why was that? That's because the enemies were challenging, and they required you to use anything skill you had! While I'm not a huge fan of Zelda II in general, I have to admit that I feel very statisfied when I defeat an Iron Knuckle or a Daira.

[TheAvengerLever]

So basically, Zelda meets Elder Scrolls?

Sure, why not. It would make it [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] more interesting. Plus, you wouldn't have to worry about running out of side quests.

[KeeSomething]

No, not like Elder Scrolls. While I those games to be highly immersive, they are also too boring and repetitive for my liking. I'm thinking of something more like Metroid Prime, in terms of how the overworld and "levels" co-exist with each other. This makes the overworld far more interesting because it is still full of enemies, puzzles, and secret paths. Oblivion's overworld (and Morrowind's) are quite boring to travel across.

Edited by KeeSomething, 17 April 2008 - 08:57 PM.

[Raien]

Perhaps Shadow of the Colossus would be a better example. The overworld is free-roaming, with monsters that you can kill in any order to complete the game. Since the principle aim of The Legend of Zelda is to fight Darkness, I would like to see fighting monsters be the primary goal of the game, as opposed to collecting mystical items. Making the monsters available in a SotC-type fashion would make the game less linear and more unexpected, which is what you're looking for.

It's a shame it's never going to happen. Nintendo have decided that the Phantom Hourglass progression is the way forward to attract the casual gaming crowd, and they even cited the lack of pick-up-and-play as a major flaw in OoT. I just hope that with the Wii game, Nintendo can make it much less basic than PH. Still, no more marathon-gaming sessions for us...

[KeeSomething]

Perhaps Shadow of the Colossus would be a better example. The overworld is free-roaming, with monsters that you can kill in any order to complete the game. Since the principle aim of The Legend of Zelda is to fight Darkness, I would like to see fighting monsters be the primary goal of the game, as opposed to collecting mystical items. Making the monsters available in a SotC-type fashion would make the game less linear and more unexpected, which is what you're looking for.

Shadow of the Colossus is a perfect example that built on the foundations of Zelda, but didn't limit itself to any formulas. SotC, in my opinion, is a truer Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Phantom Hourglass.

Zelda needs to be revisioned. Instead of creating new experiences with each installment, each Zelda just copies the formula used in the last game, and adds some new "innovations" on top of that. It's gotten to the point where there are so many formulas to follow, that the essense of the Zelda series has been completely lost. Think of it as a snowball where a little pbble is in the middle, and the pebble gets burried deeper and deeper and more snow is rolling around it. I feel we need someone who is ambious to take over Zelda. You know, someone willing to scrap the ALttP/OoT formula, and rebuild the series from its roots. I kept that in mind when I made my first post. Maybe some will disagree with my specific ideas, but I think the message I'm trying to get across is that Zelda needs to break free of its formulas, go back to its foundation, and rebuild from there.

It's a shame it's never going to happen. Nintendo have decided that the Phantom Hourglass progression is the way forward to attract the casual gaming crowd, and they even cited the lack of pick-up-and-play as a major flaw in OoT. I just hope that with the Wii game, Nintendo can make it much less basic than PH. Still, no more marathon-gaming sessions for us...

I think Nintendo must scrap Aonuma, and hire someone who is willing to reboot the series. A reboot may seem drastic, but I'm positive that I'm not the only Zelda fan that has seen more and more fans wanting drastic changes to the series with each installment (I think Twilight Princess was the obvious one that really opened fans' eyes). Of course, like you said, nintendo is no longer trying to appeal to those fans. Why should they? Veteran fans will buy Zelda no matter how watered down and uninspired it is, and casual gamers will pick it up now since the gameplay is targeted towards them.

Edited by KeeSomething, 17 April 2008 - 09:27 PM.

[Raien]

I think Nintendo must scrap Aonuma, and hire someone who is willing to reboot the series. A reboot may seem drastic, but I'm positive that I'm not the only Zelda fan that has seen more and more fans wanting drastic changes to the series with each installment (I think Twilight Princess was the obvious one that really opened fans' eyes). Of course, like you said, nintendo is no longer trying to appeal to those fans. Why should they? Veteran fans will buy Zelda no matter how watered down and uninspired it is, and casual gamers will pick it up now since the gameplay is targeted towards them.

It's just a matter of accepting new tastes. I'm sure for all the people who were happy to hear sound in the cinema, there were a few people who missed the style of silent films. There was certainly a vocal minority who hated the transition from 2D gaming to 3D gaming. I consider myself lucky that Nintendo's games have changed to suit changes in my lifestyle. When I was young, I could afford to play marathon game sessions of TWW, but now at a time when my free time is not so large, Nintendo is concentrating on making games easier for me to get into.

The only thing that disappointed me about PH was the lack of an emotional connection. Neither the locations or the characters had any real life to them; probably a side-effect of Aonuma trying to "remake LoZ". If the game was anything like Link's Awakening, I'd be much happier. That's the balance I can live with.

[CID Farwin]

The only thing that disappointed me about PH was the lack of an emotional connection. Neither the locations or the characters had any real life to them; probably a side-effect of Aonuma trying to "remake LoZ". If the game was anything like Link's Awakening, I'd be much happier. That's the balance I can live with.

The same could be said about TP. There was a severe lack of emotional connection to almost everything. Anything with emotion was awfully forced. Example: I despise all of those stupid kids. All except Malo, the kid who makes smart comments, opens up a successful business while everyone else is helpless, and has the least direct interaction with Link. Connection?

And then there's Hyrule town, which would have been better had they taken out all the people you can't talk to. I find it more eerie that a town so full of people can be so lifeless.

[Hero of Legend]

Zelda needs to be revisioned. Instead of creating new experiences with each installment, each Zelda just copies the formula used in the last game, and adds some new "innovations" on top of that. It's gotten to the point where there are so many formulas to follow, that the essense of the Zelda series has been completely lost.

How can the games have lost their essence if all they are doing is stick to the formula? That doesn't make any sense - hell, for all we know, the essence of the series is to stick with the formula, black-sheep AoL be damned.

Now, I'm all for re-imagining the franchise, but not at the expense of what makes Zelda a Zelda. Anyway, I don't think it's hopeless. Nintendo did spectacularly with Galaxy, without changing the core of the game. Certainly the next Zelda could be like that, and I would argue steps have already been made in that direction. At the very least, I doubt there will ever be another TP - Nintendo is done with OoT; they know it, the fans know it. The game (TP) is very popular, but I doubt they will ever be this direct again. Of course I could be wrong.

As for what I want... That'd be a "mold-breaking" TWW sequel. Yeah, I'm boring, but that could work.

The only thing that disappointed me about PH was the lack of an emotional connection. Neither the locations or the characters had any real life to them; probably a side-effect of Aonuma trying to "remake LoZ".

Hey, I thought Linebeck was cool. Of course, the rest of the cast was kinda dull; but still, PH was easily the most character-driven Zelda to date*, and that's something that needs to be recognized.

*In the sense that more than one supporting character actually made a significant and prolonged impact on the plot.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 April 2008 - 05:10 AM.

[Raien]

The same could be said about TP. There was a severe lack of emotional connection to almost everything. Anything with emotion was awfully forced. Example: I despise all of those stupid kids. All except Malo, the kid who makes smart comments, opens up a successful business while everyone else is helpless, and has the least direct interaction with Link. Connection?

And then there's Hyrule town, which would have been better had they taken out all the people you can't talk to. I find it more eerie that a town so full of people can be so lifeless.

I can agree with that, but the lack of character was contrasted by the beautiful locations, so I could get over a lack of talking so long as I could explore Hyrule. PH didn't have either the characters or landscapes to interest me; that's what I hated.

Hey, I thought Linebeck was cool. Of course, the rest of the cast was kinda dull; but still, PH was easily the most character-driven Zelda to date*, and that's something that needs to be recognized.

I was referring exclusively to the NPCs that weren't involved in the main plot (aka Ciela, Linebeck). It is the general civilians that are supposed to get you involved in their lives, and they don't.

[Hero of Legend]

I was referring exclusively to the NPCs that weren't involved in the main plot (aka Ciela, Linebeck). It is the general civilians that are supposed to get you involved in their lives, and they don't.

In that case, I agree with you. And yes, PH was excruciatingly dull artistically; especially the environments, and perhaps even moreso, the music. As for Celia, she's not bad, I just think Tatl was a lot cooler.

[CID Farwin]

I can agree with that, but the lack of character was contrasted by the beautiful locations, so I could get over a lack of talking so long as I could explore Hyrule. PH didn't have either the characters or landscapes to interest me; that's what I hated.

You're right, the scenery did make up largely for the rest of the game.

The big problem with TP is, though, the lack of worthwhile sidequests.

TP was amazing in the fact that there were tons of mini-dungeons scattered everywhere and little things to get rupees. That's just the problem, though, rupees. I go through the hassle of doing some big puzzle to be rewarded with rupees??!? This wouldn't be too horrible if it weren't for 1) the fact that rupees are everywhere. 2) "but it's too big to fit in your wallet now, so let's put it back."

As for what I'd like to see in new Zeldas, I would like to see something like what they've done with Mario: Go back to the basics and include things (music and whatnot) from every past game. I'm with Myamoto, The plot doesn't need to be anything more than the good ol' "Ganon took the Triforce! Link, go save Zelda," as long as there's plenty of other reasons to play (sidequests, dungeons, you know; Zelda stuff.) Just do that right, once, wrap it up in a nice warm nostalgia blanket, and send it on its way.

The thing is, making the plot simple like above, there's plenty of room for non-linear stuff. I would love to see something like the old games, where you're given a bunch of dungeons to go to and a sword. You don't have some annoying person saying "Let's go here," "Now let's go here," "I wonder what's going on over here," "Where are you going, the plot's that way!" etc. essentially drawing a path on the map. You go wherever you darn well please, but what limits you is your lack of items.

Speaking of items, I feel a similar sentiment to KeeSomething. In TP, there's tons, but there's not enough chance to use them all. The dungeon and boss are just a way to show off the new item, but then you hardly use it ever again. That gets annoying, especially when you've got this little circle that has all of them crammed around it.

[KeeSomething]

How can the games have lost their essence if all they are doing is stick to the formula? That doesn't make any sense - hell, for all we know, the essence of the series is to stick with the formula, black-sheep AoL be damned.

No, there is a difference between the essense (the foundation), and the formula/doctrine Zelda has been following for years. Here is an old diagram I made that explains what I mean:

Now, we can all argue what the true foundation of Zelda is, but as this diagram clearly shows, Zelda is putting more and more rules on itself with each installment (of course, there were some execptions). The diagram on the left shows the foundation of Zelda which isn't a very long list, which leaves a lot of room for creativity and innovation for future Zelda games. The diagram on the right shows the ongoing sets of rules that the series is putting on itself. The list is getting so big that its overcrowding the true foundations of Zelda, and there is little room for innovation.

In other words, each Zelda game just takes the previous formula from the last game, and builds on top of that. While this may have worked in the past, there is way too many rules on the doctrine now. Each game hardly offers a new experience, instead, you are just getting another version of the last game with some new gimmicks. I think the next game should really go back to the roots, and rebuild from there so it can truly offer a new experience.

[Hero of Legend]

Heh, seems you guys are on complete opposite ends of the argument.

I see your point KeeSomething, though I don't quite agree on what is (and isn't) part of the foundation of the franchise. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with games building on the mythos established in previous titles as long as the game itself does not suffer from it. I suppose there is a balance to be found, which I believe is CID's point.

Anyway, I suppose if you put it that way, I too would want to get rid of the old formula. Nintendo certainly could gain a lot from shedding their old doctrines and reboot the series. The Master Sword? Fine. Three Stones? Why? Master Sword after Three Stones? Been there. Done that.

However, I believe a reboot of sorts was actually the intent of TWW, though whether anything will come of it, and if the formula will change along with the story is another matter; to it's credit, PH did a lot more to that end than TP (though most of it was just more gimmicks).

And about bosses; I should point out that FSA had pretty intense boss-battles. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see in a 3D game.

[Chiaki]

Interesting diagram there...and it does make a point. Still, I thought that TP was a push in the right direction, as far as story and characters go. I don't get why having town NPCs that you can't talk to is a problem, there were lots of those in Mass Effect, and the only problem was possibly that you didn't always know who you could or couldn't talk to. In Mass Effect, people were positioned in the game to appear to be interacting with each other, or lounging around watching the scenery, and occasionally, you'd overhear a conversation between people who you never actually talk to yourself.

I like the idea of blending dungeons into the rest of the world better, too. Maybe you walk into a town, and things aren't quite right. Maybe monsters are attacking the people, and at the end, then you get the boss and you're like, "Oh, so this was a dungeon after all???" (I was just throwing a suggestion out there though, I should home Nintendo would make a more careful decision about doing that.)

And then theres the point of Ganondorf trying to get the Triforce. Ultimately, the idea is kinda cheesy and cliche. A recent trend I see is making a bad guy who isn't doing what they believe is wrong; its more a clash of opinions, more realistic. I think Zelda, being a fantasy game, should aim somewhere in between...though looking at it, it already kind of does, though it fails somewhat in really explaining, I think partly because everything is a result of OoT, where the game ended with the triforce split; in WW, Ganondorf is searching for the missing triforces (and finds them, as everyone knows), but its unclear in TP what Ganondorfs goal is, except to take over the world, somehow without the triforce pieces, unless his plan was to take Zant's power (since Zant had taken over Hyrule, it would have been easy for Ganondorf to take the power from Zant), and THEN look for the triforce, but since we never found out for sure, we are left with a gap that Ganondorf tried to fill, but we almost could have done without him in the first place. It seems though, that Ganondorfs recent plots have involved using someone to bring him into the light world, only from him to cast them aside. This idea seems evilly cool at first, but when you think that he did this not once, but twice, on top of the fact that Starfox Adventures had already done this before, the idea is no longer original, and therefore, less interesting.
If theres anything I want to see, its a plot twist that actually hits me, such as Ilia losing her memory; in that scene, it was totally unexpected, and you felt Link's confusion and heartbreak because you were thrown, too. (Or, at least, I was.)

If you give it enough thought, you could think of ways to improve the Zelda games, but I kinda agree that they need to get some new minds working on the plot, though they shouldn't toss Aonuma out altogether. I think there needs to be a balance of the foundation with new concepts and ideas.

[KeeSomething]

Interesting diagram there...and it does make a point. Still, I thought that TP was a push in the right direction, as far as story and characters go. I don't get why having town NPCs that you can't talk to is a problem, there were lots of those in Mass Effect, and the only problem was possibly that you didn't always know who you could or couldn't talk to. In Mass Effect, people were positioned in the game to appear to be interacting with each other, or lounging around watching the scenery, and occasionally, you'd overhear a conversation between people who you never actually talk to yourself.

I think Twilight Princess was a leap backwards in both story telling and characters. I really don't want to get off topic, but I feel that I have to express my opinion here.

First of all, having a world full of well-written characters makes the world more alive. When the world is more alive, it is much easier to care about it, and that gives you extra motivation to save them. The thing is, the characters in Twilight Princess aren't written like people; they are written like compasses that are only there to point you to your next destination. The few characters that actually were written to be more than sign posts were too over-the-top or their personality was completely dropped later in the game. For example: Colin's character is so overdramatic that his character makes me want to puke ("When I grow up, I want to be just like you, Link.") He, like many characters in Twilight Princess, force so much emotion on your that it goes way beyond cheesy. And you are supposed to wanna save these people? And save them from what? The twilight is gone after you complete Lakebed (but I'll get more into that later).

Examples of characters that started off interesting, but were dropped later in the quest were Telma, and Midna. They both start off unique and interesting, but Telma just ended up becoming a normal NPC that stays in the bar, and Midna's personality was completely dropped in the second half of the game so she could be a perfect, loving princess. I don't even want to get into Zant... what a horribly written character. A flashback triggers him to go crazy? Retarded.

As for the plot, it is a result of untalented writers not knowing what to do. TP starts off fairy good. The story forshadows many interesting themes, for example: corruption. The whole cutscene with the Dark Links was very cool, and it demonstrated how the Fused Shadows can corrupt someone's heart. But was this theme ever explored? NO! It was dropped completely! Another major flaw in TP's story is how it constantly stalls everything. Ilia is kidnapped, and loses her memory.... OK, but by the time she actually regains her memory, there isn't any reason to care because the game put that story aside until the very end of the game. The entire second half of the game is just stalling the ending, and by the time you actually make it to Zant, you forget pretty much everything. Zant is gone the entire second half of the game until you go to the Twilight Palace. What was he doing this whole time? He was just sittig on his throne. He's supposed to be the main villain, but he is just sitting on his throne while you "save the world." Actually, how is Link even saving the world anymore? The Twilight is gone, the people didn't even know what it was in the first place, and Zant is pretty comfortable staying away from Hyrule. It's all a matter of stalling the ending because the story is that awful.

Then, once you beat Zant, you find out that Ganondorf is the real badguy, so now you have to fight him. More stalling. Ganondorf is sitting on the throne too... somehow Zelda is alive again, and now you have to fight a battle with a man who doesn't even know who Link is, and you just recently heard of him.

Yuck, Twilight Princess... I find it to be a perfect example of how Nintendo just doesn't care at all about plot anymore. Too bad, because Link's Awakening, Wind Waker, and Majora's Mask has some beautiful writting.

I like the idea of blending dungeons into the rest of the world better, too. Maybe you walk into a town, and things aren't quite right. Maybe monsters are attacking the people, and at the end, then you get the boss and you're like, "Oh, so this was a dungeon after all???" (I was just throwing a suggestion out there though, I should home Nintendo would make a more careful decision about doing that.)

That's how I felt the first time I beat ALttP's forest temple (I forgot the name). It blended so well into the overworld!

If you give it enough thought, you could think of ways to improve the Zelda games, but I kinda agree that they need to get some new minds working on the plot, though they shouldn't toss Aonuma out altogether. I think there needs to be a balance of the foundation with new concepts and ideas.

Alas, the purpose of my diagram.

[Duke Serkol]

I agree with more or less everything KeeSomething has said in his last post (not so much his first post, I pretty much disagree with everything in it), especially concerning TP.

But I'd like to say, I suspect TP's redundant plot is not so much to be blamed on untalented writers as it is on too many radical changes over the course of development. I don't have any proof of this, but there are some things (concerning the redundancies) which I believe could indicate this.

[KeeSomething]

(not so much his first post, I pretty much disagree with everything in it)

Can you be more specific, please?

But I'd like to say, I suspect TP's redundant plot is not so much to be blamed on untalented writers as it is on too many radical changes over the course of development. I don't have any proof of this, but there are some things (concerning the redundancies) which I believe could indicate this.

I don't think so. Ocarina of Time went through more changes than Twilight Princess from what I gather. Originally, child Link wasn't even going to be a part of Ocarina of Time, which means no time-travel was going to take place. They added child Link about a year or so before the game's release. On top of that, 2 years was spent on perfecting the game engine (it originally was running on the SM64 engine). Even with all of this taking place, Ocarina of Time's story felt very much complete, even if the plot formula was based off of A Link to the Past.

I don't think there is any excuse as to why Twilight Princess had such awful writting. It was more of a fan fiction than a legit Zelda story you'd expect from Nintendo. Nintendo simply has to put more effort into the story, but that doesn't seem to be the case since Miyamoto and Aonuma have said in interviews that the story comes last for them.

[Duke Serkol]

Can you be more specific, please?

Okay, if you wish.

For the next Zelda game, I'd like a simple story that doesn't have anything to do with destiny or fate; rather, a personal journey, much like Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening.

I would be okay with the personal journey idea (but does that have to be "simple"?), if used as a break from the epic plotline (as was the case with said games) but not as the norm for the series. I like my plots epic and elaborate (so long as they are original and well thought out).

I think it would be a good idea to completely start from stratch, and have no old themes return except the classic overworld theme.

I'm just completely against that. I mean it's good for each game to have its own main theme... which TP did, several in fact (Midna's and Ilia's if anything recurred as some sorts of Light VS. Twilight themes throughout all the game in various forms), but I also love remakes and expect at least three or four with every game (more possibly).
Of course neither should there be too many. FSA's soundtrack is almost entirely remakes (though awesome ones), and one of the reasons I'm not very fond of the Oracle games is that they re-use music from LA without even changing it (even the freaking title music!!). Oh and I also like for remakes to be used appropriately. Like WTF was up with using Ganondorf's music for the Ghost Ship in PH?

The world in my Zelda would not be as black and white as it is in other Zelda games. In Zelda games, you have towns, dungeons, and the overworld. While it is nice to have variation, I think it would be a vast improvement to get rid of the thick line between each.

I agree that it could be neat to surprise the player with something like that, but again, I don't think I'd like it if this became the standard.

Another factor that should be improved is the exploration. The player should be rewarded when they explore. The player should be teased by areas they can't yet access yet to motivate them to continue exploring. Remember when you were younger, and you play Link's Awakening for the first time? Remember being teased by being able to see some ledge with a chest or a cave above you, but you couldn't reach that ledge yet because you didn't have the hookshot or whatever? Wasn't it extremely rewarding to finally get that hookshot or the item you needed to get there?

Ah yes, to this I can agree wholeheartedly

Another gameplay flaw I see with a lot of Zeldas is the limited use of items. While it is cool to have a ton of items that do all kinds of things, I think it would be better to have far less items, but use them far more frequently.

Zelda is an item driven game, and I love that. So the more the better (or at least to an extent), but I do concur it is a shame when they forget earlier items completely (whatever was the slingshot for in TP??)

It also bothers me how in the more recent Zeldas, you can only defeat bosses using the dungeon weapon you got-- only one strategy.

I like in this that you get to use your new item against a boss right away. However, this does often times make figuring out how to beat the boss too easy, so yeah, the battle shouldn't be decided as soon as you whip your new item out, it should still require you to find several strategies (with maybe just one involving the new item and others just your sword or previous items) all, or most of them, required to win the battle. That's how I see it, at least.

They are not even battles anymore, just simple puzzles that, onced figured out (which shouldn't be too hard), you can walk through without worrying about dieing. Now, if I were in charge, this would not fly by me.

That's another thing I can agree with yes.

something that currently annoys me with the Zelda games is how I always have a full wallet with nothing to buy. How do you solve this problem? Make shops more useful, of course! How, you ask? Well, the solution will fix this problem as well as another problem... You know how hearts, magic jars, arrows, and bombs are always flying out of bushes and enemies? They are quite useful indeed, and it would be a pity if enemies and plants didn't drop them....

Eugh, no, no, no, for the love of the Goddesses no! >_<
What if one runs out of arrows or bombs in the farthest depths of a dungeon (or simply far away from a shop and a warp point)? You have to go all the way back. That's beyond annoying.
There are more creative uses for rupees that they could come up with I'm sure (they tried with the fundings in TP, but I don't believe the idea was very well executed).

However, I wouldn't just stop there. I'd put specific shops that upgrade you weapons or abilities for a high prices. Of course, these abilities wouldn't be required to beat the game, but they'd make it more fun and easier to progress through. You want to learn the downward thrust? That'll cost you 3000 rupees. Huh? You want that crossbow? Well, I hope you can spare 5000 rupees.

That could work if not overdone.

I'd make enemies more of a threat to the point where you could no longer just fly through a group of 10 Lizafols. You'd have to pick your battles, and play it smart because being outnumbered by foes with weapons would leave you at a major disadvantage. After all, they work together, set traps, attack relentlessly, and even call in reinforcements if you don't take out the leader fast enough. Now, as you become more skilled with your sword, gain new abilities and weapons, and increase your hearts, you may stand a chance, but you better have some potions because this is still not going to be easy. You may just want to play it safe, and shoot them with your bow from a long, safe distance.

That too could work. I'm not 100% sure about it, but it might.

How often do you really take advantage of these abilties in order to survive an intense battle? Probably never, and that's a real shame.

Enemies must be tougher! Zelda II does get a lot of crap from fans, but I respect it in the sense that each ability you learn becomes EXTREMELY useful in battle. Why was that? That's because the enemies were challenging, and they required you to use anything skill you had! While I'm not a huge fan of Zelda II in general, I have to admit that I feel very statisfied when I defeat an Iron Knuckle or a Daira.

Yeah, specifically I'd like more accurate simulations of swordplay in new Zeldas (and with the Wii-mote that should be possible) and fights that really put that to the test. Something like fighting IronKnuckles in AoL, but much more advanced.

But I'd like to say, I suspect TP's redundant plot is not so much to be blamed on untalented writers as it is on too many radical changes over the course of development. I don't have any proof of this, but there are some things (concerning the redundancies) which I believe could indicate this.

I don't think so. Ocarina of Time went through more changes than Twilight Princess from what I gather.

Just because they did a great job with OoT despite such difficulties that doesn't mean they cannot explain a less succesful result in a later occasion. A game of the level of OoT (both in terms or quality and the effort clearly put into it) is far from being the standard. Of course with TP they sought to outdo it, and we know in terms of plot and characters they failed hard... but maybe they would at least have come close to it if problems like the ones I suppose had not occurred. Maybe.

Nintendo simply has to put more effort into the story, but that doesn't seem to be the case since Miyamoto and Aonuma have said in interviews that the story comes last for them.

I know Miyamoto said so, but didn't Aonuma claim he wishes to fix the timeline up? (And lame as TP's plot may be, I do reckon it seems to work in that direction. To me at least).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 19 April 2008 - 06:25 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Then, once you beat Zant, you find out that Ganondorf is the real badguy, so now you have to fight him. More stalling. Ganondorf is sitting on the throne too... somehow Zelda is alive again, and now you have to fight a battle with a man who doesn't even know who Link is, and you just recently heard of him.

Ha! That?s the best summary of TP I?ve ever heard.

Still, you gotta admit they tried - there's tons of stuff in the early game, like the scene with the Bulblins, that, unfortunately was never explored. If those plots had come to fruition, the game could have been very different. Of course, the fact that they apparently felt the need to cut it to randomly fit Ganondorf in sort of ruins their good intentions, but anyway.

I know Miyamoto said so, but didn't Aonuma claim he wishes to fix the timeline up? (And lame as TP's plot may be, I do reckon it seems to work in that direction. To me at least).

How do you figure? I don?t need details. Is it just the ALttP references or what?

Oh and I also like for remakes to be used appropriately. Like WTF was up with using Ganondorf's music for the Ghost Ship in PH?

Oh, speaking of that, did you know Bellum's theme is an arranged version of ALttP's Temple BGM? You probably do, but eh, maybe someone who didn't know reads my post or something.

[Duke Serkol]

I know Miyamoto said so, but didn't Aonuma claim he wishes to fix the timeline up? (And lame as TP's plot may be, I do reckon it seems to work in that direction. To me at least).

How do you figure? I don?t need details. Is it just the ALttP references or what?

Figure out that he wishes to fix it or that TP works in that direction?
The first, I remember reading it in an interview. The latter, because I think TP and FSA are meant to work together in connecting OoT to ALttP. I could go in detail, but this doesn't seem the right topic, and I'm sure others have said the same things already.
But this is also why I think TP got screwed up during development. I believe the Twili and Twilight Mirror were in fact going to be the Dark Tribe and Dark Mirror, but for the sake of more liberty and perhaps to pursue what they thought would make for a cooler plot and characterization (emphasis on they thought) they changed that during development.
Of course that is just speculation. Just as I speculate Agahnim was originally Carock, but then they decided having the game end with Zelda into eternal sleep wouldn't be good.

Oh and I also like for remakes to be used appropriately. Like WTF was up with using Ganondorf's music for the Ghost Ship in PH?

Oh, speaking of that, did you know Bellum's theme is an arranged version of ALttP's Temple BGM? You probably do, but eh, maybe someone who didn't know reads my post or something.

The first battle music? I think I did, but forgot
Which temple anyway? (Light World? Dark World?)

But seriously, using a remix there had me think "Oh so Bellum will be somehow related to Ganon!" (like if he had been created by him or something)
This only served to increase the "WTF a squid with an eye in its mouth that can't talk any backstory??" effect.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 19 April 2008 - 09:21 PM.

[KeeSomething]

I would be okay with the personal journey idea (but does that have to be "simple"?), if used as a break from the epic plotline (as was the case with said games) but not as the norm for the series. I like my plots epic and elaborate (so long as they are original and well thought out).

Majora's Mask and Shadow of the Colossus both have very simple plots, but the presentation makes them epic. They never try too hard to go over-the-top with plot twists, or emotion, they just present themselves in a mysterious, beautiful, and epic manner that makes for a very memorable story.

Also, keep in mind that characters are what make a story great. A simple plot not only allows for more character development, but also more freedom to be creative with the gameplay.

I'm just completely against that. I mean it's good for each game to have its own main theme... which TP did, several in fact (Midna's and Ilia's if anything recurred as some sorts of Light VS. Twilight themes throughout all the game in various forms), but I also love remakes and expect at least three or four with every game (more possibly).
Of course neither should there be too many. FSA's soundtrack is almost entirely remakes (though awesome ones), and one of the reasons I'm not very fond of the Oracle games is that they re-use music from LA without even changing it (even the freaking title music!!). Oh and I also like for remakes to be used appropriately. Like WTF was up with using Ganondorf's music for the Ghost Ship in PH?

A Link to the Past only brought over one theme from original Zelda: the overworld theme. Same with Link's Awakening. They're soundtracks are probably the two most popular ones in the Zelda franchise, and that's because they are completely stand alone. Their soundtracks didn't rely on nostalgia to get the player's attention. If we got a Zelda game that didn't rely on remixes, we could get that feeling we got when we heard the Dark World theme, or Ballad of the Wind Fish for the first time again.

I agree that it could be neat to surprise the player with something like that, but again, I don't think I'd like it if this became the standard.

I'm just talking about one game, not the standard that the rest of the games after will follow.

Zelda is an item driven game, and I love that. So the more the better (or at least to an extent), but I do concur it is a shame when they forget earlier items completely (whatever was the slingshot for in TP??)

It's lazy, and bad game design to give the play a bunch of useless items. Since Zelda is an item-driven game, it should focus more on making the items useful, even if it means cutting down on the item count.

I like in this that you get to use your new item against a boss right away. However, this does often times make figuring out how to beat the boss too easy, so yeah, the battle shouldn't be decided as soon as you whip your new item out, it should still require you to find several strategies (with maybe just one involving the new item and others just your sword or previous items) all, or most of them, required to win the battle. That's how I see it, at least.

Boss battles need to be less predictable in general. We always know to expect them at the end of a temple, they attack in patterns, and we know how to defeat them just by knowing the item we collected in that dungeon. I hate this. After playing the Metroid Prime games, the bosses in the more recent Zelda games are just lousy distractions. Something drastic must be done.

Eugh, no, no, no, for the love of the Goddesses no! >_<
What if one runs out of arrows or bombs in the farthest depths of a dungeon (or simply far away from a shop and a warp point)? You have to go all the way back. That's beyond annoying.
There are more creative uses for rupees that they could come up with I'm sure (they tried with the fundings in TP, but I don't believe the idea was very well executed).

I can understand you concern, and maybe that was a bit drastic to suggest, but I think this would work out fine with clever game design. Or atleast drastically cut down on how often you get hearts, magic jars, bombs, and arrows from enemies.

[Selena]

With franchises, especially Nintendo ones, you get an image in your head almost immediately about what the games are. Mario is likely going to save Peach after a quest through many levels where you bounce around like a frog on shrooms. Metroid is going to involve an Alien-esque scenario, but Samus is hotter than Ellen Ripley. And you'll have to collect suit upgrades all over again despite powering up to a god-like level in the game that took place a few months before this new one. Zelda will involve exploration and puzzle solving in elaborate dungeons. The plots, villains and supporting characters may change, but all the core elements have essentially remained the same.

Metroid has probably got the most extreme face lift out of all the Nintendo franchises, and that's because it switched from side scrolling adventure to FPS. But all the gameplay elements (suit upgrades, backtracking through areas to get things you missed earlier, face sucking squids) are still intact. Another big series, not of Nintendo, that got many face lifts over the years was Final Fantasy. The new games don't even look like they're related to the classic ones at all. And some people are angry about that and have given up on the franchise all together. So in some ways, it might be easier to switch out looks and even the genre than it is to mess with established gameplay elements.

I don't play much Zelda compared with other games, but there are things that certainly stick out in my mind as to what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game.


Potential Good Changes:
- Losing Ganon for a while and embracing a new villain. I think most people are getting sick of him. And he's not that good of a villain in the first place.
- Making the plot deeper and more personal, like in Majora and like minded games.
- Ditching useless trinket collection.
- Focusing instead on more on useful items and using them in conjunction with each other to finish a dungeon.
- Better supporting cast.
- New innovative weapons/tools.
- Sidequests that don't always involve smuggling mushrooms or other suspect items.
- Better enemy/boss AI.

Losing dungeons, however, is bad. Removing the dungeons from Zelda is like preventing Mario from jumping. They are an integral part of the game and give Zelda a lot of its unique identity. You might want to put more stuff in the overworld, but no getting rid of the dungeons. Zelda has a unique feel to it, and I've only vaguely got the same feeling of exploration and questing from one other game. The original Quest for Glory. And that might be a game to take some examples from, even if it's simplistic, not all that serious, and an old DOS creation.

You're a lone hero who comes to town in order to help the populace. There's only one town in the middle of a forest, with various locations spread around. You don't know where anything is, as there's no map, and the townspeople are very vague about things most of the time. You have to get out and wander around to discover things. A lake, a cave guarded by a big troll, a faerie circle of doom, and so on. And each location has different things going on in the day and night (the game incorporated an early day/night system). So you've got to always be exploring, and you never know when something's going to pop out and kill you. Or went you might accidentally kill yourself, as that happened sometimes as well.

From exploring and talking to people, you know some things. The Baron's son is dead and his daughter was kidnapped. There is a witch terrorizing the people. There is also a horde of bandits doing the same thing. There are many different little quests that eventually link together to be a united plot, and you can do this in most any order (save for some things). It was kind of like Pulp Fiction. Each story technically stood on its own, but they were all connected and worked together to paint a bigger picture. Lots and lots of little things that you can discover and do. And it all keeps a sense of wonder and discovery. Which is another core element of Zelda.

Because it has a similar spirit, you might be able to take things from this, build on them, and still keep it Zelda.



So! My quickly thought out game pitch!

The Legend of Zelda: Pretty Elf Boy of Destiny
Setting: Sheikah homeland, one year after the Adventure of Link. Time the original games got something other than prequels.

Link, the well accomplished hero of Hyrule, has an unquenchable thirst for adventure. He leaves the castle behind and travels beyond the mountains to see what is over the horizon. After months of travel, he comes across a foreign kingdom that seems to be plagued with discord. Three months ago, the corrupt Queen was exiled to the north for her crimes against the people. Now, she plots to regain control of her land by any means necessary. If that is not enough, a band of thieves has been taking advantage of the threatened population and preying up on them. Rumors of legendary monsters and ancient temples are quietly whispered among the locals, who are desperately seeking a hero. It is up to Link to restore order in this hostile land, knowing that if he finds himself in trouble, help is much too far away...

-- Starting Equipment --
Sword
Shield
Boomerang
Bomb
Some basic Zelda 2 spells/moves

-- Potential Later Equipment/Abilities --
* Bow
* Fire, Ice, Light Arrows
* Grappling Arrow - leaves behind a rope you can climb up/down or use to swing over gaps.
* Sheikah Boots/Gloves. Allow you to scale walls/other things thanks to built in spikes - ninja style.
* Quake Spell
* Din's Fire
* Invisibility (temporary, for spying)
* Advanced sword moves / light combo moves.
* Upgraded sword - but not Master Sword.
* Quiver, Bomb Bag, etc. upgrades
* Horsey

-- Gameplay --
* You'd engage in multiple quests that eventually link together to form one bigger plot.
* Since it would be set in the land of the Sheikah, it would incorporate some real sneaking around/espionage in addition to fighting.
* Exploration focused rather than darting off after townspeople directly point the way.
* No Ganon / Rescue Zelda plot.
* Quests to slay some big nasties, but not really related to the plot. Would give you bonus items/upgrades.
* You may be forced to go to some temples/dungeons, but others have a story that unravels as you explore through it.

-- Example MiniQuests --
* You hear rumors that the thieves have kidnapped someone/horded something good in their lair, but you don't know where.
* After exiting a temple, a thief steals some of your equipment, and unfortunately, s/he is well trained in fighting. You must finish the fight creatively rather than conventionally using whatever few items you have left.
* You must then track the wounded and fleeing thief over a certain distance until they lead you to the hideout.
* You must then scale over the wall and sneak around unnoticed (and you can't just shoot them in the face with an arrow this time) in order to reach the prize, whatever it may be.
* Elsewhere, you hear that the Queen's sister/brother aided the rebels in the revolution, and has been MIA since the war. You must find this sibling during the course of your adventures, and they later become an aid/information source that isn't entirely useless for a change.


...And so on. But with a good, character driven plot that I can't think up right at this moment.

Yeah. There. *shrug*

[Duke Serkol]

Majora's Mask and Shadow of the Colossus both have very simple plots, but the presentation makes them epic.

That may be true, but I love games whose story is not contained within themselves but embraces that of others in the same series, and in the case of Zelda this requires for the plot to span over generations.

keep in mind that characters are what make a story great. A simple plot not only allows for more character development, but also more freedom to be creative with the gameplay.

You've said this before and I can agree that characters and creative gameplay are of paramount importance... but I don't really see how an elaborate story hinders any of that.

A Link to the Past only brought over one theme from original Zelda: the overworld theme.

Well duh, if it had brought over two more, it would have been all of them!
Personally, I would have liked some AoL remixes in AlttP (or some AoL remixes in any Zelda game dammit... was that only TMC that has one? Besides Smash Bros, of course).

Same with Link's Awakening. They're soundtracks are probably the two most popular ones in the Zelda franchise, and that's because they are completely stand alone.

Actually I'm pretty sure they are fan favorites simply because they are awesome

Their soundtracks didn't rely on nostalgia to get the player's attention. If we got a Zelda game that didn't rely on remixes, we could get that feeling we got when we heard the Dark World theme, or Ballad of the Wind Fish for the first time again.

...or the feeling when we heard Midna's theme go from melancholic to to a grand chorus in the moment before her sacrifice.

I agree that it could be neat to surprise the player with something like that, but again, I don't think I'd like it if this became the standard.

I'm just talking about one game, not the standard that the rest of the games after will follow.

Ah okay, cool then

It's lazy, and bad game design to give the play a bunch of useless items.

If they are useless yes, that's the case. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Boss battles need to be less predictable in general. We always know to expect them at the end of a temple, they attack in patterns, and we know how to defeat them just by knowing the item we collected in that dungeon. I hate this.

Yes, yes, like I said, the dungeon's item should be of use during the boss fight, but the battle shouldn't resolve itself in just that, using the new item. I agree to that.

Or atleast drastically cut down on how often you get hearts, magic jars, bombs, and arrows from enemies.

If anything what really should be removed is the ability to stick fairies into bottles (or at least their ability to come out of those bottles on their own and heal you after death...)
That and boss rooms shouldn't have so many hearts in vases/bushes. I can understand a few (like three) but it's getting ridiculous (think of TP's last Ganondorf fight, just about each rock had three hearts in it and one a freacking fairy... the hell?)

[FDL]

In some cases this seems to have ended up a mere TP bitching thread but I'll respond to these points anyway. KeeSomething, I don't intend to single you out but for now I am since you're the one I seem to disagree with. I'm not doing this just to be an ass either. I genuinely disagree.

I'm bringing the ZU thread over here. Just as you guessed, this thread is to post how you'd develop the next Zelda game.

Here is my post from ZU:

For the next Zelda game, I'd like a simple story that doesn't have anything to do with destiny or fate; rather, a personal journey, much like Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening. I feel it takes away a lot from the game world when your character is given a destiny, and when everyone treats him as a hero, so a personal quest for Link would be ideal.

First thing's first, no Zelda game that I can think of like this. Some of certain people treating you like a hero, sure, but it's certainly not "everyone". In fact, I'd say there's little difference in the way the Ikanans, the Turtle, Kaepora Gaebora, and the Giants treat you in MM then there is in the way you're treated in other Zeldas. And considering LA's story was that Link had this thrust upon him I don't think this was personal either.

Next, I'd like a lot of focus put into the soundtrack. I think it would be a good idea to completely start from stratch, and have no old themes return except the classic overworld theme. This would really help give the game a its own identity, and while it may feel strange not to have all the classic themes return at first, when you get teased by little pieces of the
Zelda theme, you'll feel happy, until the whole theme finally plays at the very end of the game. At this point, fans will be crying from nostalgia.

This is something that just makes me mad. One thing that is unanimously praised by people about Zelda is the music. Comepletely getting rid of all those classic tunes and starting from scratch would make few people besides you happy. While I agree it shouldn't be all old stuff, I don't think it should be "completely from scratch" either.

The Overworld Design-

The world in my Zelda would not be as black and white as it is in other Zelda games. In Zelda games, you have towns, dungeons, and the overworld. While it is nice to have variation, I think it would be a vast improvement to get rid of the thick line between each. This would make the overworld more interesting, less predictable, and more demanding to explore. Just think of it this way: wouldn't it be cool to just scale a giant mountain that consists of little caves, random enemy bases, and some boss battles? You'll be thinking to yourself: "Was that a dungeon?" How about wandering into some random forest, only to be chased out by a giant Gohma?

Another factor that should be improved is the exploration. The player should be rewarded when they explore. The player should be teased by areas they can't yet access yet to motivate them to continue exploring. Remember when you were younger, and you play Link's Awakening for the first time? Remember being teased by being able to see some ledge with a chest or a cave above you, but you couldn't reach that ledge yet because you didn't have the hookshot or whatever? Wasn't it extremely rewarding to finally get that hookshot or the item you needed to get there? Remember searching the entire overworld, and talking to all the people to figure out who you needed to give the fishing hook to? After all that, remember being rewarded with the best item in the game--the boomerang?

As Hylian Dan has said in one of his past posts, gamers like to be teased. They like to have bait in front of them to follow. They also like to be rewarded. If I were making a Zelda game, I'd make sure I put a lot of effort into this area.

Okay, that first paragraph was interesting but it seems like a somewhat unreasonable demand. I doubt that will be happening any time soon. As for the other parts of your post, LA wasn't the only one to do that. Pretty much every single Zelda game has done that since ALttP IIRC. I can think of distinct examples from OoT, MM, TWW, and TP where that has happened, and I believe it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

Dungeons-

How about no dungeons? Yes, that sounds crazy, but think back to my speech about how cool it would be to blend in the overworld with dungeons and towns. I'm guess not saying that Zelda shouldn't have dungeons, I'm just saying the ideas for dungeons should mix more into the overworld. That way, you see, the overworld itself is really one massive dungeon that is dieing to be explored-- A huge dungeon filled with forests, lakes, mountains, caves, towns, people, monsters, bosses, puzzles, etc. That would really allow the player to play the game at his or her own pace. A design like this would be completely nonlinear, much like the original Zelda, and it would allow you to complete the game the way you want to. A perfect example of a game that pulled this off is Metroid Prime, but I think Zelda could do an even better job.

I doubt this will happen to be honest. I don't mean to sound like a bubble-burster, I just find that people who have such big notions of what Nintendo should are often the most disappointed when they discover Nintendo didn't read their posts on a message board and didn't make the game exactly to there vision.

Items-

Another gameplay flaw I see with a lot of Zeldas is the limited use of items. While it is cool to have a ton of items that do all kinds of things, I think it would be better to have far less items, but use them far more frequently. Does Link really need 20 different items? I don't think so. It also bothers me how in the more recent Zeldas, you can only defeat bosses using the dungeon weapon you got-- only one strategy. In Majora's Mask, you are given so much freedom in boss battles. For example, the final battle allows you to finish Majora in any form (there are even hidden plants for Deku Link). Not only that, but all the dungeons in Majora's Mask were designed for you to use all the items you had up to that point, not just the most recent item/ability you've obtained. Stone Tower Temple is the perfect example.

I agree somewhat, but I disagree with the attention people pay to this issue. DOes it really bother you that much that you didn't use the Ice Arrows very much? Or the Spinner? It just doesn't seem like a big enough deal to get worked up over.

Boss Battles-

To go back to the boss battles, Zelda bosses need a revamp for sure. They are not even battles anymore, just simple puzzles that, onced figured out (which shouldn't be too hard), you can walk through without worrying about dieing. Now, if I were in charge, this would not fly by me. I would take inspiration from Metroid Prime, Shadow of the Colossus, and Majora's Mask for the boss battles. Tp be more specific, I'd mix things up. Some battles would be brawls that didn't require you to 'solve' the enemies weakness. Other battles would require you to find their weakness, but you'd still have to fight to stay alive, even after you "figured them out." Notice how even after you find the boss's weak point in Metroid Prime, you still have trouble defeating it because they don't just let you attack. Same with in Shadow of the Colossus, bosses are huge puzzles that need to be solved, but even after you solve them, it is a challenge to scale and defeat them.

I guess I'll be even more specific: bosses will try kill you, and not just try to hid their weak point.

I sort of agree with this. Aside from Twin Mold, I agree with you about MM being the best in that regard. However, I don't want the next Zelda to be SoC. It's infuriating how many people complain about TP or PH not being SoC when they shouldn't be compared at all. I don't want a giant overworld if it is comprised of nothing but lizards, trees, and bosses.

Shops-
I really want to make shops more useful. Making shops more useful may seem like a small improvement, but I assure you it could drastically improve the games quality and challenge.

First of all, something that currently annoys me with the Zelda games is how I always have a full wallet with nothing to buy. How do you solve this problem? Make shops more useful, of course! How, you ask? Well, the solution will fix this problem as well as another problem... You know how hearts, magic jars, arrows, and bombs are always flying out of bushes and enemies? They are quite useful indeed, and it would be a pity if enemies and plants didn't drop them.... Do you see where I'm going with this? Yes, I'd make it so you could only find arrows, hearts (red potions), magic jars (green potions), and bombs in shops (and treasure chests). This would a) make shops far more useful, b) add more challenge to the game, and c) make rupees much more important to collect.

However, I wouldn't just stop there. I'd put specific shops that upgrade you weapons or abilities for a high prices. Of course, these abilities wouldn't be required to beat the game, but they'd make it more fun and easier to progress through. You want to learn the downward thrust? That'll cost you 3000 rupees. Huh? You want that crossbow? Well, I hope you can spare 5000 rupees.

I sort of agree with this. I'd add that a bank like MM's would probably help with this also.

I'll continue what I'm saying on the next post.

[FDL]

Now this where I find you to be flat out wrong.

I think Twilight Princess was a leap backwards in both story telling and characters. I really don't want to get off topic, but I feel that I have to express my opinion here.

First of all, having a world full of well-written characters makes the world more alive. When the world is more alive, it is much easier to care about it, and that gives you extra motivation to save them. The thing is, the characters in Twilight Princess aren't written like people; they are written like compasses that are only there to point you to your next destination. The few characters that actually were written to be more than sign posts were too over-the-top or their personality was completely dropped later in the game. For example: Colin's character is so overdramatic that his character makes me want to puke ("When I grow up, I want to be just like you, Link.") He, like many characters in Twilight Princess, force so much emotion on your that it goes way beyond cheesy. And you are supposed to wanna save these people? And save them from what? The twilight is gone after you complete Lakebed (but I'll get more into that later).

That's just stupid. Pretty much every character had there own motivations and emotions, and were all different. They were used far more than the characters of OoT, ALttP, or TWW ever were and were used more effectively too. Do you really mean to tell me that ARYLL is some amazing character that connects with anyone in a meaningful way? Or Saria? No, they're more underused then anyone in TP.

Examples of characters that started off interesting, but were dropped later in the quest were Telma, and Midna. They both start off unique and interesting, but Telma just ended up becoming a normal NPC that stays in the bar, and Midna's personality was completely dropped in the second half of the game so she could be a perfect, loving princess. I don't even want to get into Zant... what a horribly written character. A flashback triggers him to go crazy? Retarded.

Um, no, he was crazy from the get go. Very time we saw Zant prior to that there were hints of his insanity, but I guess that can be overlooked just so you can hate on this game some more. And Midna DEVELOPED as a character. You can clearly trace her character path from the beginning to the end, and pretty much everything was logical and, IMO, well done. She was different in the second half of the game because she was saved by two Light Worlders after being mortally wounded by a fellow Twili. Of course she's going to rethink her ideals and change some things!

As for the plot, it is a result of untalented writers not knowing what to do. TP starts off fairy good. The story forshadows many interesting themes, for example: corruption. The whole cutscene with the Dark Links was very cool, and it demonstrated how the Fused Shadows can corrupt someone's heart. But was this theme ever explored? NO! It was dropped completely!

Right, because Link and Midna are going to turn evil right? NO! They aren't! But it did serve to help explain Zant's motivation as well as create some conflict about how we view the Twili. With that scene, the game makes us question whether or not helping Midna is really a good thing. And it really adds to the ending, where Light and Shadow join together to battle evil. Whereas in the beginning Link hated the Twilight and Midna hated the Light. The big themes in TP were power, corruption, and the duality between light and shadow(which symbolized several other things), and most of these things worked well, I'd say.

Another major flaw in TP's story is how it constantly stalls everything. Ilia is kidnapped, and loses her memory.... OK, but by the time she actually regains her memory, there isn't any reason to care because the game put that story aside until the very end of the game. The entire second half of the game is just stalling the ending, and by the time you actually make it to Zant, you forget pretty much everything. Zant is gone the entire second half of the game until you go to the Twilight Palace. What was he doing this whole time? He was just sittig on his throne. He's supposed to be the main villain, but he is just sitting on his throne while you "save the world." Actually, how is Link even saving the world anymore? The Twilight is gone, the people didn't even know what it was in the first place, and Zant is pretty comfortable staying away from Hyrule. It's all a matter of stalling the ending because the story is that awful.

No, it isn't at all. It's matter of telling the story while making room for dungeons. The only reason you believe it's stalling is because there were several dungeons that didn't have big story related things happen before and after them. That isn't a failing at all, that was said to be intentional by Aonuma. The first four dungeons were intended to build the story up whilst the the three dungeons after the Arbiter's Ground were not as much. If you'd remember(which you won't, because you're biased) OoT, ALttP, and TWW all did this as well. When you're looking for the Sages in all of those games, very little actual plot development happens. It's just going from one dungeon to the next. As for the thing about Ganondorf/Zant "sitting on the their thrones", that is also a thing that all four of those games have in common. In every single one of them, all we're given is vague speeches about how Ganondorf may be doing something but we're not given any real indication as to how he's a real threat.

Then, once you beat Zant, you find out that Ganondorf is the real badguy, so now you have to fight him. More stalling. Ganondorf is sitting on the throne too... somehow Zelda is alive again, and now you have to fight a battle with a man who doesn't even know who Link is, and you just recently heard of him.

It's no different in any other game. Even in TWW, Ganondorf mainly focused on Zelda and only really focused on Link at the end of the game. He focuses on Link at the end of TP also. Furthermore, Zelda wasn't dead. She was kidnapped, just as she is in every game. The only difference is in OoT and TWW he did it at the very end and immediately revealed what he did while in TP he let Zant tell Link. All three instances were to lure Link there. In fact, I'd say many of TP's percieved failings are merely because they felt they didn't need to reiterate what Ganondorf says in two other games before that. If we've played OoT and TWW, we know that Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda so he could lure Link into a confrontation. We can also assume that he's doing it to reunite the Triforce, just as he did in the other two games.

I'm sorry if I was rude, but I've had to read reviews and look at boards where people say the same crap you do about TP and I haven't been given the opportunity to try and disprove some of the so-called "failings" in the story of TP before. But I have to also say, while some of your ideas are good you seem to expect too much from Nintendo. You want the side quests of Harvest Moon, the enemy A.I. of an FPS, the boss battles of Shadow of the Colossus, and the overworld of Elder Scrolls Oblivion. While that would be nice, that shouldn't be expected from any developer, including Nintendo.

[CID Farwin]

Um, no, he was crazy from the get go. Very time we saw Zant prior to that there were hints of his insanity, but I guess that can be overlooked just so you can hate on this game some more. And Midna DEVELOPED as a character. You can clearly trace her character path from the beginning to the end, and pretty much everything was logical and, IMO, well done. She was different in the second half of the game because she was saved by two Light Worlders after being mortally wounded by a fellow Twili. Of course she's going to rethink her ideals and change some things!

I have to agree with that. There's a definite change in Midna from beginning to end. What I have a problem with is that the entire game drops off halfway through.

It's no different in any other game. Even in TWW, Ganondorf mainly focused on Zelda and only really focused on Link at the end of the game. He focuses on Link at the end of TP also. Furthermore, Zelda wasn't dead. She was kidnapped, just as she is in every game. The only difference is in OoT and TWW he did it at the very end and immediately revealed what he did while in TP he let Zant tell Link. All three instances were to lure Link there. In fact, I'd say many of TP's percieved failings are merely because they felt they didn't need to reiterate what Ganondorf says in two other games before that. If we've played OoT and TWW, we know that Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda so he could lure Link into a confrontation. We can also assume that he's doing it to reunite the Triforce, just as he did in the other two games.

But that's just it, it's completely dependent on those two games to even make sense. TP is a game that, supposedly, is easy for any person new to Zelda to pick up the game and not be dependent on prior knowledge of the series to understand.

Except it's not.

They went out of their way to do things like eliminate the word "Triforce" (which to my knowledge is never uttered) but at the same time it's obviously there, and obviously very important to the plot. The only reason Ganondorf's actions make sense is if he's after the Triforce, but the game implies he's not; he just wants to take over the world. Except he's obviously got the ToP (and Link and Zelda have ToC and ToW, respectively,) except it's not the 'Triforce', it's the 'Power of the Gods.' The game both relies on prior knowledge for the last part make sense, but at the same time makes no sense with knowledge of prior games.

TP is just generally confused. The first part of the game has nothing to do with any prior Zelda, and almost feels like they weren't even making a Zelda game at that point. I would have adjusted, and probably been okay with it being a Zelda game(albeit a vastly different Zelda game,) but then it jumps to OoT all over again (when you get the Master Sword, but there's some scattered lead up before that.) It very much feels like the developers couldn't decide what they were doing with the game, and changed their minds constantly during development. If, as you say, the same thing happened during OoT, at least it is a decent stand-alone game, and you don't get halfway through and feel like you're playing a different game than an hour ago.

*pause for breath*

Now that's enough about TP, I'ma get back on topic.

You want the side quests of Harvest Moon, the enemy A.I. of an FPS, the boss battles of Shadow of the Colossus, and the overworld of Elder Scrolls Oblivion. While that would be nice, that shouldn't be expected from any developer, including Nintendo.

Not to mention that after all that, where's the room for a Zelda game?

That's got to be the thing I like least about these topics. I hear people going off about how "It would be awesome to have [feature] in Zelda. Something like in [that one game]." Um, no?. Zelda should be like The Legend of Zelda. If they're going to do something different and new, then it should be--wait for it--something different and new. Something that blows everyone away. Not a synthesis with some other piece of media.

I agree that something needs to change, that there needs to be something new in Zelda, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be transformed into a different (especially an existing) game.

[LionHarted]

Going off of what I like about Majora's Mask...

-Keep Eiji Aonuma. Force him to make a continual string of gaidens following Twilight Princess and The Wind Waker.
-Take us out of Hyrule. If Hyrule is going to be featured, it should be a small part of the main game. I'm getting rather annoyed with Death Mountain, Zora's Domain, the western desert, and Lake Hylia.
-If the Triforce is going to be used/referenced, do so in a unique way. I can praise Twilight Princess endlessly in this respect, although it could have taken this about a million steps further.
-More involvement divine powers. The scene from The Wind Waker where Valoo torches the Forsaken Fortress > The scene where the Giants stop the Moon >>>>>>>> all other Zelda cutscenes.
-Make more references to historical myth and fairy tales. (Examples: Aliens in Majora's Mask, Peter Pan's Lost Boys in Ocarina of Time, Bremen in Majora's Mask, a Great Flood, etc. etc.)
-The more bizarre the world, the more interesting the world. I personally love the Bomber's Hideout, the shrine underneath the Ikana Graveyard, the Great Bay Temple, the Stone Tower Temple, Clock Town, and the Moon Dungeons precisely for this reason.
-More fluidity between main quest and sidequests, as well as between dungeons and the overworld. For example, having more areas like the abandoned fortress in Gerudo Desert, and making them more elaborate, would suffice to create a much more immersive experience.
-More to do in general, especially when traversing the overworld. TONS of hidden grottoes, caves, and overworld mazes.

[SteveT]

More and more, I'd like to see a remake of the original.

What I find lacking in recent Zelda titles is the sense of mystery. You interacted with maybe 10 non-enemy characters in the first game. You were a stranger exploring the a country full of monsters, where the villagers are few in number, holed up in caves. You hear that off in the mountains is an evil wizard responsible for the fall of civilization. You don't know how long he's been in control, only that collecting some mystical artifacts will give you the edge you need to put him down...

Worse, no one was holding your hand. There was no right order to do things. Sure, certain things had to be done than others, but it was limited by items, not arbitrary plot constructions.

The sense of isolation, I think, is what really think bred the feeling of exploration. (You see the same thing in Metroid games or Shadow of the Colossus.) Link shouldn't be having an adventure in Hyrule. He should be wandering through its ruins. (Nevermind Zelda II, which established that civilization just moved, or something.)

Two areas that really stood out to me in Link to the Past were the Lost Woods, and Death Mountain. Again, both places were basically devoid of friendly characters. You could go get lost in the woods, wander for a while...then stumbled into a gang of thieves' hideout. And I can't even guess how long I spent exploring the mazes in Death Mountain, so immense that I found myself retracing my footsteps over and over because I just couldn't believe that I had seen it all.

My Pitch:

Like I said before, a 3-D remake of the Legend of Zelda. Start with the scene in the manual where Link saves Impa from a group of Moblins. But make her speak only in incoherent, post-traumatic stress gibberish. All that Link should learn outside her incoherent mutterings is "Hyrule" and "Ganon." Heck, Ganon took her tongue and Link doesn't even get that much.

So Link, for whatever motive--I don't care, let the player decide, decides that he's going to save this kingdom.

Link ends up alone, wandering around this vast wasteland, searching for entrances to the ruins of the sites housing Triforce pieces. Instead of generic underworld locations, let them be Temples and Fortresses, Crypts and Caves. One thing that was hinted it, but could be done much better now, was that the monsters in the dungeons weren't Ganon's minions at all, but were placed there to guard the Triforce. I'd take that a step further, and have actual fighting between Ganon's forces and the guardians of the Triforce. Let Link be a third party in this dispute. You could even put the few remaining Hyrulian soldiers in the Overworld, wandering randomly and fighting monsters. Make the player feel like the world isn't always just waiting for him to move. (But make sure that the soldiers don't trust Link any more than they trust a Moblin.)

Another thing I would add is to take the system of plot progression of Link to the Past. Put a sage in the room with each Triforce piece, each of them giving Link a piece of the plot. Through them, explain the story of Ganon's rise to power and the eventual collapse of civilization. But give the pieces out of order (which would be easy to do, since dungeons can be entered out of order), and let the sages contradict each other. One blames the King. Another is convinced that Link is wasting his time. Yet another isn't even aware that anything happened.


By the time the player finds out exactly what Ganon did (and please, let him commit some atrocities for once--he's the apocalypse, after all), he should be properly motivated to storm Death Mountain and start stabbing. Let's just make sure that Death Mountain feels like a proper headquarters for an evil mastermind. Just getting to the door should be an ordeal.

Minigames and sidequests should be kept to a minimum. The fun should come from stumbling across a warp point, or a new cave, or an item hidden far out of the way. And no one should ever tell you where the next dungeon is.

Edited by SteveT, 21 April 2008 - 06:04 PM.

[Ransom]

bollocks Stevet.

God forbid that a Zelda game be hard!

[Duke Serkol]

Let's just make sure that Death Mountain feels like a proper headquarters for an evil mastermind. Just getting to the door should be an ordeal.

That sounds interesting. How would you propose this should be accomplished (besides the already present Lynels, of course)?