95 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

There is a tremendous contrast between the identity and connections of the two symbols; the eye is overwhelmingly connected to evil, and the eye-with-tear is overwhelmingly connected with benevolence. I honestly don't see how the implications of good and evil can be anymore apparent.

The Mask of Truth is also called frightful and scary, though. It led to one man being cursed by the gold spiders. And the Lens of Truth, too, is associated with the Well of Three features, which is chockful of evil... Seeing the Truth, in other words, is not always benevolent.

[Raien]

The Mask of Truth is also called frightful and scary, though.

The Mask of Truth was referred to as frightening because of what could be done with it, as opposed to being a Dark item. The Mask Salesman makes this plain.

It led to one man being cursed by the gold spiders.

Only in Majora's Mask; in OoT and TP, it was greed that the cursed the two men. I think it's clear by now that the events in MM have no relevant bearing on characters and items in the mainstream games.

And the Lens of Truth, too, is associated with the Well of Three features, which is chockful of evil... Seeing the Truth, in other words, is not always benevolent.

The Lens of Truth is connected with the Well of evil because the Lens is needed to see through the Darkness that fills the well. Seeing through the Darkness suggests benevolence, because the Darkness wants you to be fooled and trapped.

[Nameless_Joe]

Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm.

It was? What evidence suggests that the "gap between dimensions" is the Twilight Realm? Surely the Twilight Realm is a dimension.

I have the following paragraph saved in a Word document. It came from another Zelda site that seems to be correct most of the time: "The Twilight Realm is the rift between Hyrule and its shadow Sacred Realm. It was created by the Gods to contain Hylians who were abusing their gift of magic in order to obtain the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, trapping them in limbo. The banished Hylians evolved over the years into the twisted Twili. Ganondorf used the plight of the Twili inhabitants to make the transition from his Sacred Realm prison back to Hyrule, causing a leak of the Twilight over the land of light."

Guess I associated Phantom Ganon's banishment to this 'rift.' He is somewhat shadowy, after all, especially in TWW and FSA.

Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm. So that's another direct OoT-TP connection.

What the hell? You pulled that totally out of your ass.

*turns around to inspect ass* Nope, no Zelda-related stuff came out of there recently... Maybe it came from someone else's...


Regardless, the main point of my post was that the Twili could be descended from a rogue group made up of Sheikah. (Perhaps it could be rogue group comprised of member from several races?)

[Showsni]

The Mask of Truth was referred to as frightening because of what could be done with it, as opposed to being a Dark item. The Mask Salesman makes this plain.

What makes any item "Dark"? A dagger could be a beautiful piece of craftsmanship; if it's used for the ritual sacrifice of people to an evil pwoer, does that make the dagger itself dark?

The Eye (the Zelda one) is associated with seeing the truth. Sometimes, the truth is better left unseen, though. Any item can be misused, but something like a mask that can see people's thoughts is about as easy to misuse as you can get. Since the mask is a Shiekah heirloom, it even throws doubts on them as a people. They're not above spying on people's thoughts, even; what gives them that right? Is nothing sacred?

Do the Mask and Lens of truth have the teardrop? The Lens doesn't seem to, unless you count the handle. The Mask has a oval shape under the eye, but is that meant to be the tear or not? It's not really tear shaped, and certainly not as pronounced as the one on, say, Sheik's top. Maybe the Sheikah are connected to the Dark Tribe, and they once used to eye, then after some schism broke apart and added the teardrop, with the Mask and Lens being leftovers from before that still use the old symbols.

[MikePetersSucks]

I have the following paragraph saved in a Word document. It came from another Zelda site that seems to be correct most of the time: "The Twilight Realm is the rift between Hyrule and its shadow Sacred Realm. It was created by the Gods to contain Hylians who were abusing their gift of magic in order to obtain the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, trapping them in limbo. The banished Hylians evolved over the years into the twisted Twili. Ganondorf used the plight of the Twili inhabitants to make the transition from his Sacred Realm prison back to Hyrule, causing a leak of the Twilight over the land of light."

Guess I associated Phantom Ganon's banishment to this 'rift.' He is somewhat shadowy, after all, especially in TWW and FSA.

I'd hardly call a Zelda fansite a credible source of information, and nothing calls the Twilight Realm a rift of any sort.

[Raien]

The Twilight Realm is the rift between Hyrule and its shadow Sacred Realm. It was created by the Gods to contain Hylians who were abusing their gift of magic in order to obtain the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, trapping them in limbo.

Well, this is just wrong. The Twilight Realm is the Shadow Realm; it has been specifically referred to as the Shadow Realm. And it was created by the Gods to seal away the Dark Tribe? No. Where there is Light, there is Shadow; the Twilight Realm is the shadow that came into being when Light began to shine on Hyrule. The Twilight Realm existed long before the Dark Tribe came into being.

What makes any item "Dark"? A dagger could be a beautiful piece of craftsmanship; if it's used for the ritual sacrifice of people to an evil pwoer, does that make the dagger itself dark?

If the item specifically possesses evil power, then it is Dark.

The Eye (the Zelda one) is associated with seeing the truth. Sometimes, the truth is better left unseen, though. Any item can be misused, but something like a mask that can see people's thoughts is about as easy to misuse as you can get. Since the mask is a Shiekah heirloom, it even throws doubts on them as a people. They're not above spying on people's thoughts, even; what gives them that right? Is nothing sacred?

Nowhere in the mainstream series is there any association between the Sheikah and evil. Any connection with "shadows" comes from the fact that the tribe are ninjas, and thus hide in the shadows to protect Hyrule. Otherwise, "seeing the truth" is how the Sheikah protect themselves from the Darkness. When the Darkness tries to fool the Sheikah, the Lens and Mask of Truth are their weapons in the fight.

Do the Mask and Lens of truth have the teardrop? The Lens doesn't seem to, unless you count the handle.

The handle is tear-shaped, I would say that represents a tear.

The Mask has a oval shape under the eye, but is that meant to be the tear or not? It's not really tear shaped, and certainly not as pronounced as the one on, say, Sheik's top.

It's a mask, and thus the mask has a nose and mouth piece where the tear would normally be. You're nitpicking.

Maybe the Sheikah are connected to the Dark Tribe, and they once used to eye, then after some schism broke apart and added the teardrop, with the Mask and Lens being leftovers from before that still use the old symbols.

Fanfiction.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I just wanna point out that none of the "dark" stuff related to the sheikah symbol is ever bad/evil. The guy who had creepy stuff in his bottom-of-the-well basement, maybe, but the dudes getting the skulltula curse deserved it, and the shadow temple is a sacred place where dead people feel upset about things, certainly not evil. Even the bottom of the well guy probably just went a bit nuts from proximity to bongo-bongo.

[Raien]

the shadow temple is a sacred place where dead people feel upset about things, certainly not evil.

In the maze where you get the hover boots, the message appears "Here like's Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hated." Given that greed and hatred are emotions figuratively connected to evil within the series, one would imagine that the Shadow Temple is filled with evil (the name of the temple itself should be an indication that the spirits within are evil).

Edited by jhurvid, 23 February 2008 - 06:18 PM.

[CID Farwin]

the shadow temple is a sacred place where dead people feel upset about things, certainly not evil.

In the maze where you get the hover boots, the message appears "Here like's Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hated." Given that greed and hatred are emotions figuratively connected to evil within the series, one would imagine that the Shadow Temple is filled with evil (the name of the temple itself should be an indication that the spirits within are evil).

Yes, and the Sheikah are there to seal or guard the evil there.

What makes any item "Dark"? A dagger could be a beautiful piece of craftsmanship; if it's used for the ritual sacrifice of people to an evil pwoer, does that make the dagger itself dark?

Twilight Mirror, anyone? In Zelda terms, yes it would seem that said dagger would become imbued with evil.

Even the bottom of the well guy probably just went a bit nuts from proximity to bongo-bongo.

A bit off topic, but I always interpreted that the well guy was bongo-bongo.

[Nameless_Joe]

I just wanna point out that none of the "dark" stuff related to the sheikah symbol is ever bad/evil. The guy who had creepy stuff in his bottom-of-the-well basement, maybe, but the dudes getting the skulltula curse deserved it, and the shadow temple is a sacred place where dead people feel upset about things, certainly not evil. Even the bottom of the well guy probably just went a bit nuts from proximity to bongo-bongo.

So you're saying the Sheikah are above reproach? What about the torture chamber in the bottom of the Shadow Temple? (There's two angled beams, shackles, and a pool of blood there.) I don't believe all the Sheikah are as nice as some portray them. For that matter, the Royal Family probably has a fair deal of blood on its hands as well, seeing that the 'shadow folk' do their bidding.

The well is supposed to belong to which house? Bottom of the well guy, who are you talking about?

[Raien]

So you're saying the Sheikah are above reproach?

We're saying that there's no evidence that the Sheikah ever committed acts of evil. From the earliest known time, the age when the Oocca left Hyrule, the Sheikah have been loyal to the Royal Family and active in protecting Hyrule from evil. There is absolutely nothing to contradict it. If you want to speculate that a faction of Sheikah became the Twili, then by all means do so, but there's no evidence in the Sheikah's culture to show that they had evil tendencies.

What about the torture chamber in the bottom of the Shadow Temple? (There's two angled beams, shackles, and a pool of blood there.) I don't believe all the Sheikah are as nice as some portray them.

They're just random representations of evil; they don't have any particular meaning other than to impede Link's progression. Just like the "Grim Reapers" that randomly spin around with scythes; are you saying they're Sheikah?

For that matter, the Royal Family probably has a fair deal of blood on its hands as well, seeing that the 'shadow folk' do their bidding.

So a tribe can't have an incentive to destroy evil and protect those who keep Hyrule safe (Princess Zelda is the representation of Light in Hyrule, after all), other than to have been forced to do so? That sounds rather farfetched; the Sheikah as far as we have known do their duty from benevolence, as opposed to force from benevolence. And it's already known that "shadow folk" means "shadows of the Hylians"; ninjas.

Edited by jhurvid, 23 February 2008 - 06:59 PM.

[Jumbie]

the shadow temple is a sacred place where dead people feel upset about things, certainly not evil.

Rofl, that's so cool!

A bit off topic, but I always interpreted that the well guy was bongo-bongo.

Wow, can't say I heard that before! Can you elaborate?

The well is supposed to belong to which house? Bottom of the well guy, who are you talking about?

Someone in Kakariko says that the well is located where a house used to be in the past, obviously in times when the village was still home to the Sheikah. That essentially makes the bottom of the well its former basement. We find a family vault down there, with several Gibdos jumping around, and one of them could be the resident of the house, who is further stated to have possessed the Lens of Truth (which is also found down there).

Not sure if you noticed, but in TP, another building had been erected over the old well in Kakariko - Leonard's church. In the cellar, we can't find the tiny hole anymore through which young OoT Link crawled to enter the dungeon, because it probably has been covered with earth or something. But instead we are now able to notice the mysterious owl statue behind which the Sky Cannon is hidden, which we couldn't see in OoT because the corridor leading to the dungeon was all dark.

Edited by Jumbie, 23 February 2008 - 10:28 PM.

[SOAP]

It's not being stubborn, it's legitimate. Red colored eyes becomes moot if they don't have anything else in common. Otherwise we could say the Shiekah are related to some random monsters, too.

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have called you stubborn. You're right it's ligament. But the eye color isn't a moot point just because they don't have pupils. They live in darkness after all.

And it's not just the red eyes. If it was it could've be just a generic thing to make them seem somehow related to monsters. But there's also other evidence such as both be called Tribe of Darkness in Japanese, their connection with Shadow/Dark magic, both being tied to Hyrules' violent past, the eye symbol on Midna's helmet which is part a sacred Twili relic, the Twili having been sealed for many years while the Sheikah have all vanished long ago except for Impa and her descendants. It may not be official but it's a pretty strong case that aren't unrelated to the Sheikah.

[Raien]

both be called Tribe of Darkness in Japanese

This is true, but the nature of the Sheikah's connection with Darkness has been elaborated on, and it leads us to the conclusion that the Sheikah were not an evil tribe.

their connection with Shadow/Dark magic

The dark tribe wielded Dark magic, but the Sheikah fought Dark magic and kept it sealed away in the Shadow Temple. The Sheikah made items to see through the darkness that tried to trap them.

both being tied to Hyrules' violent past

They are ninjas who have served the Royal Family since the Oocca left Hyrule; of course they have fought in battle, but clearly on the side of the Royal Family and benevolence.

the eye symbol on Midna's helmet which is part a sacred Twili relic

Midna's helmet is part of the Fused Shadows, which is made from the power of Darkness, and thus it depicts the Evil Eye. The Sheikah symbol, the eye-with-tear, is associated with benevolence and truth-seeing (seeing through the darkness).

the Twili having been sealed for many years while the Sheikah have all vanished long ago except for Impa and her descendants.

I believe it was suggested that the Sheikah were lost in the battle that led to the Twili's sealing, but I seriously doubt that they were the same tribe, because of their history with the Royal Family (and in no part do Impa, Sheik or Impaz suggest that they betrayed the Royal Family).

Edited by jhurvid, 24 February 2008 - 07:53 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have called you stubborn. You're right it's ligament. But the eye color isn't a moot point just because they don't have pupils. They live in darkness after all.

I'm just saying that when every other aspect of the eyes aren't in common with each other, color's really not that big a deal. There's some Gerudo with red eyes too. LIEK OMG. There's some bat monsters and Bubbles with red eyes too!!!! OMG SHEIKAH AND TWILI ARE DESCENDED FROM BUBBLEZ AND POEZ!!!

Come on.

And it's not just the red eyes. If it was it could've be just a generic thing to make them seem somehow related to monsters. But there's also other evidence such as both be called Tribe of Darkness in Japanese, their connection with Shadow/Dark magic, both being tied to Hyrules' violent past, the eye symbol on Midna's helmet which is part a sacred Twili relic, the Twili having been sealed for many years while the Sheikah have all vanished long ago except for Impa and her descendants. It may not be official but it's a pretty strong case that aren't unrelated to the Sheikah.

There seems to be multiple Tribes of Darkness in Hyrule mythology, such as FSA's Deku Tribe and the mysterious Dark Tribe that made the Majora's Mask (which the eye on Midna's helmet resembles far more than the Sheikah eye). And besides, doesn't EVERYONE in Hyrule have a connection to the violent past except the Kokiri? It was a nation-wide war.

[Nameless_Joe]

There seems to be multiple Tribes of Darkness in Hyrule mythology, such as FSA's Deku Tribe and the mysterious Dark Tribe that made the Majora's Mask (which the eye on Midna's helmet resembles far more than the Sheikah eye).

Nintendo sure is vague about this, inventing one ancient dark tribe after another. They should clarify who's who. Hyrule's getting crowded, how many more tribes are they going to invent?

[I know it's a spinoff, and I haven't played it, but I think there is a dark or cursed race in the Tingle game as well.]

Edited by Nameless_Joe, 24 February 2008 - 02:47 PM.

[Raien]

Nintendo sure is vague about this, inventing one ancient dark tribe after another. They should clarify who's who. Hyrule's getting crowded, how many more tribes are they going to invent?

Unless the tribe play an active part in the storyline, as opposed to a simple plot mechanic for a dark item, then being ambiguous is Nintendo's way of saying "Stop caring about the tribe. Just enjoy the game." I know it feels nice to tie up every little detail into a simple story, but the fact is that Nintendo doesn't work this way. Plot mechanics only serve the purpose of providing a bit more emotional depth to the game; not to provide whole new stories that distract from the important stuff.

[SOAP]

This is true, but the nature of the Sheikah's connection with Darkness has been elaborated on, and it leads us to the conclusion that the Sheikah were not an evil tribe.

I don't think the Twili were neccessarily evil either. Greedy maybe. But whether they were "good" or "evil" depends on whether they benifitted the Hylains or not. For all we know the Sheikah could be evil devil-worshippers but they protected the royal family so they were percieved as "good" by the Hylains while other non-Hylians may have differed in opinion. This contrasts with the Gerudo who seem to be considered evil thieves and she-devils by Hylians but once you actually meet them, they seem pretty noble for the most part. The Sheikahs perception as being good depends on whether they benifit the Hylians or not. And even the Hylians themselves aren't always "good." They think themselves as good and if you're not with them you're against them and therefore must be evil.

The dark tribe wielded Dark magic, but the Sheikah fought Dark magic and kept it sealed away in the Shadow Temple. The Sheikah made items to see through the darkness that tried to trap them.

Assumptions. Where is it said the Sheikah fought dark magic or that it tried to trap them?

They are ninjas who have served the Royal Family since the Oocca left Hyrule; of course they have fought in battle, but clearly on the side of the Royal Family and benevolence.

On the side of the Royal Family but how were they benevolent? They were only seen as good because they benefited the Royal Family. Other than that we don't know much else other than they're all gone except for Impa and her descendants.

Midna's helmet is part of the Fused Shadows, which is made from the power of Darkness, and thus it depicts the Evil Eye. The Sheikah symbol, the eye-with-tear, is associated with benevolence and truth-seeing (seeing through the darkness).

It's the "Eye-with-tear" on the BACK of Midna's helmet taht I'm talking about. I don't get this whole "Eye-with or without tear" business as means as telling if someone is good evil. There are flags in the Forsaken Fortress in the Wind Waker that are reminiscent of the Sheilah Eye with a "tear" yet that whole place was ran by evil doers. They may have belonged to it's original inhabitants that Tetra mentions briefly but as far as I can tell they may been evil too. You don't seclude yourself that far from civilization if you're not up to anything bad.

I believe it was suggested that the Sheikah were lost in the battle that led to the Twili's sealing, but I seriously doubt that they were the same tribe, because of their history with the Royal Family (and in no part do Impa, Sheik or Impaz suggest that they betrayed the Royal Family).

You have a point here. The remaining Sheikah suggest nothing of the sort. I don't remember it being said that the Sheikah helped seal up the Twili but it is stated that their numbers dwindled during a bloody war in Hyrule's past. That alone explains their absence and puts a huge hole in the Twili=Sheikah theory.

[Raien]

I don't think the Twili were neccessarily evil either. Greedy maybe. But whether they were "good" or "evil" depends on whether they benifitted the Hylains or not. For all we know the Sheikah could be evil devil-worshippers but they protected the royal family so they were percieved as "good" by the Hylains while other non-Hylians may have differed in opinion. This contrasts with the Gerudo who seem to be considered evil thieves and she-devils by Hylians but once you actually meet them, they seem pretty noble for the most part. The Sheikahs perception as being good depends on whether they benifit the Hylians or not. And even the Hylians themselves aren't always "good." They think themselves as good and if you're not with them you're against them and therefore must be evil.

Where is the evidence that the Sheikah were greedy? All we are actually told about the Sheikah is that they fight to protect Hyrule and the Hylian Royal Family, as well as keep evil sealed away in the Shadow Temple. How could you not dedicate yourself to this task without benevolent intentions? The Sheikah made items that allowed them see through the Darkness, like the Lens of Truth. All accounts refer to them as a proud and noble tribe since they were entrusted with the Sky Book, which predates the appearance of any known dark tribes. The problem with your theory is that at no point is it suggested that any evil tendencies existed in Sheikah culture.

Assumptions. Where is it said the Sheikah fought dark magic or that it tried to trap them?

To answer your first point, the fact that the Sheikah have magically sealed evil within the Shadow Temple is evidence that they fought to seal it there.

To answer your second point, the Lens of Truth was an item made by the Sheikah to see traps hidden by the Darkness. The reference to "truth-seeing" is also referred to as "seeing through the darkness".

It's the "Eye-with-tear" on the BACK of Midna's helmet taht I'm talking about.

There's no tear on that eye. I know; I've seen it lots of times.

I don't get this whole "Eye-with or without tear" business as means as telling if someone is good evil.

It's simple. The Eye by itself appears in all places where there is evil; Agahnim's robes; Midna's helmet, etc. Thus we can deduce that the Eye represents evil; the Evil Eye.
The Eye-with-tear appears in all places that represent fighting evil or truth-seeing (seeing through the darkness), which suggests that it represents the fight against evil (the Evil Eye crying).

There are flags in the Forsaken Fortress in the Wind Waker that are reminiscent of the Sheilah Eye with a "tear" yet that whole place was ran by evil doers. They may have belonged to it's original inhabitants that Tetra mentions briefly but as far as I can tell they may been evil too. You don't seclude yourself that far from civilization if you're not up to anything bad.

Do you have a picture? I've seen lots of things that have been claimed to be the Sheikah symbol, yet they really don't look that similar.

You have a point here. The remaining Sheikah suggest nothing of the sort. I don't remember it being said that the Sheikah helped seal up the Twili but it is stated that their numbers dwindled during a bloody war in Hyrule's past. That alone explains their absence and puts a huge hole in the Twili=Sheikah theory.

Along with everything else.

[Duke Serkol]

I used to be a defendant of the theory that the tear symbolizes "evil repent" (regardless of whether that means the Sheikah make the forces of evil repent or that they themselves were repent).
But Jumbie has pointed out to me that Vaati's second form in MC seems to have the tear below his eye (http://zs.ffshrine.o...img/vaati_2.jpg see the yellow dot?) and if I'm not mistaken it also appears under the eyes in PH (the ones you shoot arrows in). Therefore I'm not so sure anymore.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 25 February 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[Raien]

But it has been pointed out to me that Vaati's second form in MC seems to have the tear below his eye (http://zs.ffshrine.o...img/vaati_2.jpg see the yellow dot?)

I don't think that looks remotely like a tear. Just as Vaati has two gold horns in that form, it looks a golden underbelly.

if I'm not mistaken it also appears under the eyes in PH (the ones you shoot arrows in).

I've just booted up the game to confirm this, and I confirm there is no tear.

[Duke Serkol]

if I'm not mistaken it also appears under the eyes in PH (the ones you shoot arrows in).

I've just booted up the game to confirm this, and I confirm there is no tear.

Oh, nevermind then, maybe it was something else in that game (like the cyclops... Hinox?) or perhaps I just plain wrong *lol*
But hey, sorry for making you boot up the game "

[Raien]

But hey, sorry for making you boot up the game "

No problem. It's only in the drawer right next to this laptop.

[SOAP]

Where is the evidence that the Sheikah were greedy?

Um, I never said anything about the Sheikah being greedy.

All we are actually told about the Sheikah is that they fight to protect Hyrule and the Hylian Royal Family, as well as keep evil sealed away in the Shadow Temple. How could you not dedicate yourself to this task without benevolent intentions? The Sheikah made items that allowed them see through the Darkness, like the Lens of Truth. All accounts refer to them as a proud and noble tribe since they were entrusted with the Sky Book, which predates the appearance of any known dark tribes.The problem with your theory is that at no point is it suggested that any evil tendencies existed in Sheikah culture.

They're human. All humans have equal potental for good or evil, no matter what race they are. Even the Hylians aren't so perfect and they're the "Chosen Race." Like I said good and evil are in the eyes of the beholder. The Sheikah may have been good or they may have been evil. Personally I think they were just neutral. But sinse their actions befit the HYlains, the HYlians think of them as good. The Gerudo are also a proud and nobel race and hardly all that evil. But theyness), which suggests that it represents the fight against evil (the Evil Eye crying). steal from the Hylians so they Hylians percieve them as bad. Of course Ganondorf doesn't help their image much either...

To answer your first point, the fact that the Sheikah have magically sealed evil within the Shadow Temple is evidence that they fought to seal it there.

Of course. They were doing there job. Ever heard of a thing called an "Antihero." Sometimes you have to fight Darkness with Darkness.

To answer your second point, the Lens of Truth was an item made by the Sheikah to see traps hidden by the Darkness. The reference to "truth-seeing" is also referred to as "seeing through the darkness".

These are Sheikah items and as afr as we knwo they were made for Sheikah use. In other words, Sheikah FuBu. Of course now that they're all gone, anyone can use their stuff.

Do you have a picture? I've seen lots of things that have been claimed to be the Sheikah symbol, yet they really don't look that similar.

No I do not but as I recall it's very simmilar only that it lacks a pupil and the three triangles (eyelashes?) on top. The important thing here is that it most definitely had a tear drop. So I'm guessing that means whoever that flag belongs to was benevolent just blind... and maybe lacked eyelashes. OR, maybe the Sheikah symbol just evolves and changes throughout the series just like every other thing in the Zelda verses. The Sheikah eye in TWW found on the stain-glass window is different from the OoT one anyways so it has evolved at least once between OoT and TWW, why not a third time post-flood? Why not several times thoughout Hyrule's history? That's what symbols do. They CHANGE. Hyrule's alphabet certianly has changed multiple times. Why not a silly eye symbol? Or does the omittion or addition of a single element bother you too much?

[Raien]

Um, I never said anything about the Sheikah being greedy.

*Explained in my next post below*

They're human. All humans have equal potental for good or evil, no matter what race they are. Even the Hylians aren't so perfect and they're the "Chosen Race." Like I said good and evil are in the eyes of the beholder. The Sheikah may have been good or they may have been evil. Personally I think they were just neutral. But sinse their actions befit the HYlains, the HYlians think of them as good. The Gerudo are also a proud and nobel race and hardly all that evil. But theyness), which suggests that it represents the fight against evil (the Evil Eye crying). steal from the Hylians so they Hylians percieve them as bad. Of course Ganondorf doesn't help their image much either...

All humans have the potential to be evil, but you can't claim that the Sheikah were evil without evidence, and you certainly can't claim the Sheikah were evil when there's a lot of information to tell us that they were good. You're just speculating.

And the Gerudo were certainly proud, but whether they were noble honestly depends on whether you're playing OoT or FSA, because their character as a tribe changes dramatically from one game to the next. In OoT, the Gerudo were depicted as rather wicked, and the Hyrulians' relationship with them was based on that character. But in FSA, the Gerudo were depicted as more caring, and so the shrine maidens spoke of them reverently. The FSA Gerudo, for all intents and purposes, were still thieves, but they were still revered at that time. And of course, not all the Gerudo were wicked in OoT, as Nabooru demonstrated a noble nature, which is what Nintendo used to disconnect Ganon's evil from the Gerudo tribe.

But I've made my point; the two tribes are respected because of their different characters as opposed to their different professions, and the Sheikah are clearly revered because they are benevolent.

Of course. They were doing there job. Ever heard of a thing called an "Antihero." Sometimes you have to fight Darkness with Darkness.

There's no evidence they fought Darkness with Darkness. We just know that they fought Darkness, which proves that they actions were at least benevolent.

These are Sheikah items and as far as we know they were made for Sheikah use. In other words, Sheikah FuBu. Of course now that they're all gone, anyone can use their stuff.

And that defeats the purpose of the items how?

No I do not but as I recall it's very simmilar only that it lacks a pupil and the three triangles (eyelashes?) on top. The important thing here is that it most definitely had a tear drop. So I'm guessing that means whoever that flag belongs to was benevolent just blind... and maybe lacked eyelashes. OR, maybe the Sheikah symbol just evolves and changes throughout the series just like every other thing in the Zelda verses. The Sheikah eye in TWW found on the stain-glass window is different from the OoT one anyways so it has evolved at least once between OoT and TWW, why not a third time post-flood? Why not several times thoughout Hyrule's history? That's what symbols do. They CHANGE. Hyrule's alphabet certianly has changed multiple times. Why not a silly eye symbol? Or does the omittion or addition of a single element bother you too much?

It bothers me because you're using such a "silly eye symbol" to justify that the Sheikah might be evil, when every piece of information about them suggests that they're not.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 07:05 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Um, I never said anything about the Sheikah being greedy.

I don't think the Twili were neccessarily evil either. Greedy maybe.

So you didn't say "they were greedy", but you were certainly implying the trait where there's no evidence for it.

Um, he was saying the Twili being greedy. Last I checked, Sheikah=Twili is what's still up for debate, so you're a bit of an asshat to assume the connection and criticize Soap for something he didn't at all imply.

[Raien]

Um, he was saying the Twili being greedy. Last I checked, Sheikah=Twili is what's still up for debate, so you're a bit of an asshat to assume the connection and criticize Soap for something he didn't at all imply.

I misread the sentence, and I apologise. For some absurd reason, I thought SOAP was referring to the Sheikah with that statement.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 09:34 PM.

[SOAP]

Okay, I'm getting carried away here. It's like this: I KNOW I'm speculating about the Sheikah being evil. I'm just saying, it's just as much speculation taht they're good. Personally I think they're neutral and being Good or Evil depends on whether or not they benefit the Hylians or not. My point is they could be be evil, but that wouldn't matter if they were an evil that sided with the royal family. But my interepretation has always been that were neutral, as in they side with the "Good Guys" but you wouldn't want to cross paths with one of them in a dark alley. They have many traits in common with ninjas which are ruthless assassins and that's how I always pictured the Sheikah to be. Benevolent is the least thing that comes to mind when I think of the word "Ninja."

The thing that bother me about your interpreatation of the Sheikah Eye symbol is that it's just an interpretation and you're using it as a fact to determine whether something is good or evil depending if the symbol has a tear or not. Maybe it has basis on whether it's a sheikah Eye symbol or just a generic creepy eye. But there's more than one interepreation for the teardrop. I think it's just symbolic of their association with Death and how people mourn the dead at furnerals. To me it just comes across as a creepy gothic thing, not good or evil just sad and cheerless. But other than that I don't think it has much other signifagance. It looks makes it look cool, nothing more. Nothing less.

[Raien]

Okay, I'm getting carried away here. It's like this: I KNOW I'm speculating about the Sheikah being evil. I'm just saying, it's just as much speculation taht they're good. Personally I think they're neutral and being Good or Evil depends on whether or not they benefit the Hylians or not. My point is they could be be evil, but that wouldn't matter if they were an evil that sided with the royal family. But my interepretation has always been that were neutral, as in they side with the "Good Guys" but you wouldn't want to cross paths with one of them in a dark alley. They have many traits in common with ninjas which are ruthless assassins and that's how I always pictured the Sheikah to be. Benevolent is the least thing that comes to mind when I think of the word "Ninja."

Just because Ninjas hide from clear sight (because it's a good tactical strategy) doesn't mean that we should suspect them of wrongdoing. If it wasn't for those skills, Zelda would have been caught by Ganondorf long before she was. And let's not forget that the Sheikah follow strict codes of honour; the fact that they are generally dedicated to fighting evil tells us that that is the function of their tribe.

To be honest, I think you're making this subject more complicated than it needs to be. Nintendo has given us lots of evidence that the Sheikah were good, and no evidence to suspect their motivations. So why are you saying that we should suspect them when Nintendo haven't provided any reason for us to?

The thing that bother me about your interpreatation of the Sheikah Eye symbol is that it's just an interpretation and you're using it as a fact to determine whether something is good or evil depending if the symbol has a tear or not. Maybe it has basis on whether it's a sheikah Eye symbol or just a generic creepy eye. But there's more than one interepreation for the teardrop. I think it's just symbolic of their association with Death and how people mourn the dead at furnerals. To me it just comes across as a creepy gothic thing, not good or evil just sad and cheerless. But other than that I don't think it has much other signifagance. It looks makes it look cool, nothing more. Nothing less.

The reason I refer so much to the Sheikah Symbol is because it demonstrates my argument perfectly. Sheikah culture has been referenced in numerous places as a tribe dedicated to fighting evil in Hyrule. The manner in which they do this might be unfamiliar to Americans/Europeans, but they are revered in Hyrule as a proud/noble tribe. As if to demonstrate the Sheikah's allegiance, the eye-with-tear is a clear contrast with the Evil Eye. Zelda wears the eye-with-tear in Twilight Princess, which tells us that Zelda and the Sheikah share the same allegiance, although we could have deduced that from OoT.

[MikePetersSucks]

On the subject of good and evil, the Zelda mythos very clearly expresses an "innocent until proven guilty", black-and-white schema of morality. If someone isn't explicitly evil, we're probably to assume they're either a dumb animal/monster, or passively good.