95 replies to this topic

[Din's Daughter]

I was talking to a couple of friends on the Zelda time line the other day, and we got into the subject of quotes. While reading through we came to this one:

"Have you heard the legend of the 'Shadow Folk'? They are the Sheikah...the shadows of the Hylians. They say they swore allegiance to the King of Hyrule and guarded the Royal Family. But with the long peace, no on has seen a Sheikah around here for a long time."

From Ocarina of Time.

It got me thinking, The Twili live in the Twilight Realm, and when I think Twilight I think shadows, as it's the time when shadows are cast (and the Twilight Realm connects with the light realm). So, could the Sheikha have been banished to the Twilight Realm some time in between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess?

[Raien]

I think the evidence would suggest not. Before TP, "Shadow" as magic was merely a euphemism for the evil power of Darkness, and although the Sheikah had a connection with Darkness, it was only because they dedicated their lives to sealing Hyrule's evil away in the Shadow Temple. If you look at the Sheikah symbol, you can see that it is the Evil Eye crying (note: the eye without a tear appears in many evil places, so we can deduce it is the Evil Eye).

Twili = remnants of an evil tribe
Sheikah = a benevolent tribe

So, I don't think an accurate connection can be drawn from the terminology.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 February 2008 - 11:46 AM.

[Jumbie]

What a nice coincidence you should bring this up! It gives me the opportunity to post the Japanese version of this quote:

ぼうや、闇の民族の話を　聞いたことが　あるかな？
Boy, I wonder if you have heard the story of the Race of Darkness?

我々ハイリア人の「影」…　シーカー族という　者たちじゃ。
The "shadows" of us Hylia people... the people of the so-called Sheikah tribe.

代々　ハイラル王家に　忠誠を誓い　王族の身辺を　守っていたそうな…
They say they swore loyalty to the royal family of Hyrule, and they guarded them for generations…

しかし、平和な時代に　なって　シーカー族を　見た者はおらん…
But to get to see a member of the Sheikah tribe in this age of peace…

じゃが、うわさでは…　お城に　一人だけ　シーカー族の女が　いるらしいんじゃ…
There's a rumour though… They say that one single Sheikah woman lives in the castle…

Note that the Sheikah aren't called Shadow Folk in Japan, but Race of Darkness - just like the Shadow Temple in OoT is in truth called Temple of Darkness, and the Sage of Shadow is the Sage of Darkness.
Japanese does call them the "shadows" of the Hylia, but using quotation marks which emphasize that it's meant metaphorically. ...Like the Twili being the "shadows" of the Hylia?

It got me thinking, The Twili live in the Twilight Realm, and when I think Twilight I think shadows, as it's the time when shadows are cast (and the Twilight Realm connects with the light realm).

Absolutely correct. In Japanese TP, the Twili tribe aren't called Twili at all, but Clan of Shadow. The Twilight Realm (the one Link only visits near the end) is called the Shadow World, and alone the Twilight over Hyrule is called Twilight.

So, could the Sheikha have been banished to the Twilight Realm some time in between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess?

I'm always pondering about the possibility of the two tribes being related. They share the affinity to shadow, the red eyes, a similar eye symbol... But there's also a lot of inconsistencies to explain, the most obvious of all being that the Sheikah protected the Hylians whereas the Twili's ancestors revolted against the Hylians.
Also, it's a fact that there are two real Sheikah appearing in TP who are certainly not Twili, namely the old lady Impal who saved Ilia, and the fortune-teller Madame Impalse.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm always pondering about the possibility of the two tribes being related. They share the affinity to shadow, the red eyes, a similar eye symbol...

Only Midna has been shown to have red eyes. Every other Twili has had pure white.

[SOAP]

Didn't Midna also have a Sheikah Eye symbol on her somewhere.

Just because there's a few Sheikah in TP (one really) who exists separately from the Twili, doesn't mean the Twili aren't Sheikah. The Sheikah could've been all sealed prior to OoT and turned into the Twili afterwards while Impa is lone Sheikah who was still loyal to the Royal Family so she remained unsealed and was able to have a (half?) sheikah decendant Impaz.

The Sheikah may have served the royal family but perhaps they were more like a tribe of mercanries who got tired of doing all the Royal Families dirty work and attempted to seize the Triforce for themselves. Afterall, wasn't Ganondorf "loyal" to the royal family for a while before he turned on them?

[Fyxe]

and the fortune-teller Madame Impalse.

Wait wait wait wait. Where is this from? The name and her being a Sheikah.

It should be noted aside though that Sheik was originally going to be in the game in some form or other.

[SOAP]

and the fortune-teller Madame Impalse.

Wait wait wait wait. Where is this from? The name and her being a Sheikah.

It should be noted aside though that Sheik was originally going to be in the game in some form or other.

How would that be possible? Sheik never existed to begin with unless TP Zelda started puling off the same tricks OoT Zelda did.

I don't know where the name is from but maybe people think she's a Sheikah because the eye symbol on her forehead. Perhaps she's part Sheikah and is a decendant of Impa or some other Sheikah who did not get sealed (Going with the Twili=Sheikah theory). If she has red eye then that'd be proof but I don't recall what color her eyes were...

Edited by SOAP, 19 February 2008 - 07:48 AM.

[Fyxe]

How would that be possible? Sheik never existed to begin with unless TP Zelda started puling off the same tricks OoT Zelda did.

Well, the first shots of Zelda we saw when the game was in development heavily emphasised her cloak with the Skeikah symbol. In fact, she was thought to be the Twilight Princess of the name for some time. I have a feeling that Zelda would have indeed changed into Sheik again at some point, but they obviously decided to go with a plot that focuses more on Midna.

It's certainly unusual that Zelda takes quite such a backseat role in TP and the symbol on her cloak has to have some meaning rather than the mere homage that it ended up being, so it's not really unreasonable for her to change into Sheik or have the ability to. They just decided against it in the end, presumably to stop the game from being far too much like OoT.

Anyway, it's been mentioned a couple of times that Sakurai asked Aonuma for the unused character model/design of Sheik that they made for TP for use in Brawl. It's hard to tell at which stage of development Sheik was cut, but it's possible it was later than we might otherwise think.

[Raien]

Just to point out, the reason why Madame Impalse is believed by some to be Sheikah is because she wears a medallion with the Sheikah symbol on her forehead (as well as the red eyes?).

[SOAP]

Why guess when we can find out for sure?

Okay so I did a quick Google search and first of all her name is Madame Fanadi, not Impalse. Though Impalse is a good name, so I'm stealing that for my novel. *copyrights*

Secondly she does indeed have red eyes and a Sheikah symbol on her forehead.

Edited by SOAP, 19 February 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[Raien]

Of course, her Sheikah symbol could be interpreted as a "third eye" of truth-seeing, like the Gossip Stones or Eye of Truth in OoT.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 February 2008 - 06:23 PM.

[Jumbie]

Only Midna has been shown to have red eyes. Every other Twili has had pure white.

Oh? Then I must be colour-blind... Let's look deep into their eyes...

Didn't Midna also have a Sheikah Eye symbol on her somewhere.

Yes, on the backside of the Fused Shadow and on her throne, but it's a very abstracted version of the eye, more similar to Agahnim's symbol.

Wait wait wait wait. Where is this from? The name and her being a Sheikah.

Ah, I was being a little secretive there. Impalse (インパレス) is Fanadi's Japanese name. The same Katakana are used to transcribe "impulse", but I prefer to write it with an A because that way, the pun on Impa becomes clear. After all, the name of Impa (インパ) is included completely within the fortune-teller's name.

The word Sheikah doesn't occur in either of TP's texts, but we don't need it spelled out to know that she's a Sheikah. They gave us enough hints: red eyes, tribe symbol (the perfectly same as in OoT), and the name pun. Rather they would have had to spell out to us if Impalse was not a Sheikah.

maybe people think she's a Sheikah because the eye symbol on her forehead.

Well, there are also people who think the heavy guys on Death Mountain with those Goron tribe tattoos are actually Gorons

Of course, her Sheikah symbol could be interpreted as a "third eye" of truth-seeing, like the Gossip Stones or Eye of Truth in OoT.

Both bear the emblem mainly because the Sheikah created them.

I really wonder why everyone seems to be discomforted by too many Sheikahs in a game... Just because they're known as a dying-out tribe, doesn't mean that one or another of them can't still be around, right?

Ah btw, Impaz is actually called Impal (インパル). Now is that better or worse..?

Edited by Jumbie, 19 February 2008 - 08:49 PM.

[Raien]

The word Sheikah doesn't occur in either of TP's texts, but we don't need it spelled out to know that she's a Sheikah. They gave us enough hints: red eyes, tribe symbol (the perfectly same as in OoT), and the name pun. Rather they would have had to spell out to us if Impalse was not a Sheikah.

When you take the name into account, it really can't be any more obvious. I've learned something new today.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 February 2008 - 09:18 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The word Sheikah doesn't occur in either of TP's texts, but we don't need it spelled out to know that she's a Sheikah. They gave us enough hints: red eyes, tribe symbol (the perfectly same as in OoT), and the name pun. Rather they would have had to spell out to us if Impalse was not a Sheikah.

Funny how easy it is to substitute "Sheikah" with "Triforce."

And seriously, I never thought about that before, good observations!

presumably to stop the game from being far too much like OoT.

Well, that failed.

Miserably, I might add...

[Fyxe]

Well, that failed.

Miserably, I might add...

Be fair, the differences from OoT far outweigh the similarities. While there are a lot of stylistic references, the gameplay is more akin to TWW and the dungeon design is very different, along with the plot.

Not saying they're not very similar, they are, but the extent to which is exaggerated a lot.

[CID Farwin]

Well, that failed.

Miserably, I might add...

Be fair, the differences from OoT far outweigh the similarities. While there are a lot of stylistic references, the gameplay is more akin to TWW and the dungeon design is very different, along with the plot.

Not saying they're not very similar, they are, but the extent to which is exaggerated a lot.

Yes, they are exaggerated way too much, but then again, so is TWW's Triforce quest...

My point was to where the majority of the fanbase received it as 'too much like OoT' so if they were trying to avoid that, then they failed.

My main beef with TP being like OoT is that it hindered what could have been much better.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh? Then I must be colour-blind... Let's look deep into their eyes...

They're white, on my game. North American Gamecube Edition, if it matters.

Even if they are red, they're an entirely different KIND of red, with no pupils or whites and possessing an unnatural glow, so the actual color becomes moot, regardless.

[SOAP]

Oh? Then I must be colour-blind... Let's look deep into their eyes...

They're white, on my game. North American Gamecube Edition, if it matters.

Even if they are red, they're an entirely different KIND of red, with no pupils or whites and possessing an unnatural glow, so the actual color becomes moot, regardless.

Now you're just being stubborn. As far as I recall they're eyes are red and I have the same version as you. I'd double check but my file was deleted so I'd have to replay the entire game to find out. They're pupil-less unnatural looking eyes do not surprise me. They're a race that adapted to living in the darkness for gods knows how long. San-pupils is a typical cartoonish way to potray people or animals that dwell darkness. Midna's eyes appaer relatively normal (at least comapred to her fellow Twili) but then again she is the Twilight Princess, ruler of Light and Shadow, so maybe she can see in either light or dark.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's not being stubborn, it's legitimate. Red colored eyes becomes moot if they don't have anything else in common. Otherwise we could say the Shiekah are related to some random monsters, too.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Interesting, we have Impalse AND Impaz... and to think, I thought Thelma was Impa...

[Raien]

Interesting, we have Impalse AND Impaz... and to think, I thought Thelma was Impa...

Well, Telma is clearly a name invented by NOA, because her cat is called Louise, which references the film "Thelma & Louise".

[Nameless_Joe]

The story about the Twili recounted at Lanayru's spring

Japanese:
In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared. With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the Sacred Realm. But the god(desse)s sent us Light Spirits to seal away the sorcery which made those people enormously huge. And that very sorcery, the black power… is the Crystal Stone of Shadow.

English:
Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered. You know this magic... It is the dark power you seek... the Fused Shadow.

Okay, I'm rather behind on sleep, but here's an idea I had: Why couldn't these magic wielders be descended from a rogue faction of Sheikah rather than being descended from the major portion of that race? The Fused Shadow or Crystal Stone of Shadow is obviously a form of shadow magic, so that kind of links Sheikah and Twili. Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm. So that's another direct OoT-TP connection.


What is Telma's name in Japanese?

[Din's Daughter]

Oh? Then I must be colour-blind... Let's look deep into their eyes...

They're white, on my game. North American Gamecube Edition, if it matters.

Even if they are red, they're an entirely different KIND of red, with no pupils or whites and possessing an unnatural glow, so the actual color becomes moot, regardless.

Ahem, *cough* magic *cough*

Magic is everywhere in Hyrule, so there's no saying that their eyes were changed by magic, right?

The story about the Twili recounted at Lanayru's spring

Japanese:
In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared. With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the Sacred Realm. But the god(desse)s sent us Light Spirits to seal away the sorcery which made those people enormously huge. And that very sorcery, the black power… is the Crystal Stone of Shadow.

English:
Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered. You know this magic... It is the dark power you seek... the Fused Shadow.

Okay, I'm rather behind on sleep, but here's an idea I had: Why couldn't these magic wielders be descended from a rogue faction of Sheikah rather than being descended from the major portion of that race? The Fused Shadow or Crystal Stone of Shadow is obviously a form of shadow magic, so that kind of links Sheikah and Twili. Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm. So that's another direct OoT-TP connection.


What is Telma's name in Japanese?

I believe her Japanese name is Teruma

Edited by Din's Daughter, 22 February 2008 - 03:47 AM.

[Raien]

Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm.

It was? What evidence suggests that the "gap between dimensions" is the Twilight Realm? Surely the Twilight Realm is a dimension.

[MikePetersSucks]

Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm. So that's another direct OoT-TP connection.

What the hell? You pulled that totally out of your ass.

Ahem, *cough* magic *cough*

Magic is everywhere in Hyrule, so there's no saying that their eyes were changed by magic, right?

If their eyes were changed by magic, then their eyes are no evidence that the races are connected. Also, please stop being a condescending bitch.

[Jumbie]

Well, Telma is clearly a name invented by NOA, because her cat is called Louise, which references the film "Thelma & Louise".

Nuh-uh, they're Teruma and Ruiizu in Japan as well

Why couldn't these magic wielders be descended from a rogue faction of Sheikah rather than being descended from the major portion of that race?

That must be the case, considering that there are a few Sheikahs left in Hyrule. It could be the reason why they added the tear to the eye symbol...

Also, in OoT, Ganondorf mentions banishing Phantom Ganon to the "gap between dimensions", which is, seemingly, the Twilight Realm. So that's another direct OoT-TP connection.

Heh that's funny, I translated that OoT quote just the other day. So, here it is:

だが…　貴様が　倒したのは　所詮、オレの幻影に　すぎぬ…
However… what you've defeated was no more than an illusion of me, after all…
But you have defeated only my phantom...

…それにしても　不甲斐なき奴！　次元の狭間に　消え去れい！！
…Anyway, you worthless guy! Disappear in the / a dimensional gap!!
What a worthless creation that ghost was! I will banish it to the gap between dimensions!!

Notes:
- Ganondorf says 幻影, that's the same word as in the original name of the Haunted Wasteland, which can mean "Desert of Illusions" or "Desert of the Phantom".
- It's impossible to determine whether Ganondorf refers to *the* dimensional gap or *a* dimensional gap.

Edited by Jumbie, 22 February 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[Fyxe]

Considering the portal that Phantom Ganon is drawn into looks identical to the same portals he uses when travelling to and from the paintings, I hardly think that the dimension he is sent to is anything other than some kind of specific phantom-type limbo thingie.

Besides, as mentioned, the Twilight Realm isn't referred to as a gap between dimensions, as far as I remember.

[Raien]

Nuh-uh, they're Teruma and Ruiizu in Japan as well

I stand corrected. Interesting.

That must be the case, considering that there are a few Sheikahs left in Hyrule. It could be the reason why they added the tear to the eye symbol...

More likely the eye symbol represents evil (which is why it appears on evil things) and the tear represents evil being hurt (which is why Zelda wears it, along with the Sheikah who keep evil sealed away).

[Jumbie]

I also don't think the dimensional gap refers to any specific realm we know of.

More likely the eye symbol represents evil (which is why it appears on evil things) and the tear represents evil being hurt (which is why Zelda wears it, along with the Sheikah who keep evil sealed away).

That's one interpretation. But I think "darkness" is more plausible, because variations of the eye symbol are shared by about as many benevolent as malevolent tribes who are all associated to darkness or shadow. Although darkness in Zelda is almost always used in connection with evil forces, there are these good dark tribes, the Sheikahs and the reformed Twilis.

Edited by Jumbie, 22 February 2008 - 12:09 PM.

[Raien]

That's one interpretation. But I think "darkness" is more plausible, because variations of the eye symbol are shared by about as many benevolent as malevolent tribes who are all associated to darkness or shadow. Although darkness in Zelda is almost always used in connection with evil forces, there are these good dark tribes, the Sheikahs and the reformed Twilis.

I had a discussion about this a while back, and the thing is that apart from the mysterious statue in TP, there are no examples of the eye being shown anywhere that isn't evil. It appeared on the Fused Shadows (made from the power of Darkness), it appeared on Agahnim's robes in official artwork, it arguably appeared in the Shadow Temple. In contrast to this, the "eye with tear" symbol only appears in connection with benevolent characters (Zelda), the Sheikah who sealed evil away in the Shadow Temple and "truth-seeing" (also referred to in OoT as "seeing through the darkness").

There is a tremendous contrast between the identity and connections of the two symbols; the eye is overwhelmingly connected to evil, and the eye-with-tear is overwhelmingly connected with benevolence. I honestly don't see how the implications of good and evil can be anymore apparent.

And for the record, the Twili lost their dark magic with the Fused Shadows (the Fused Shadows was their dark magic, after all), and thus the magic that they wield (or at least Midna wields) in the Twilight Realm is one that they gained upon transforming into the Twili, and hence they're not dark anymore. Likewise, the Sheikah's connection with Darkness is specifically tied to the Shadow Temple, where the Sheikah have sealed Hyrule's evil away and guarded over it. There is no real evidence that the Sheikah were once evil themselves; all we know about them suggests otherwise.

PS: The Sheikah were trusted with the Sky Book when the Oocca left the land of Hyrule. That is good evidence that the Sheikah were loyal to the Hyrulian Royal Family and thus benevolent.

Edited by jhurvid, 22 February 2008 - 12:36 PM.