71 replies to this topic

[Reflectionist]

You also have to consider, when saying that your god has the largest amount of "followers," they are basing this on surveys that they have done. The data only include the people who were surveyed, and who's to say which parts of the population they represented? Additionally, a lot of people list themselves as members of whatever religion their family claims, while they do not necessarily believe in (or even know) the doctrines, and they don't necessarily practice these religions or contemplate what they really believe god to be. The majority of people I know who are like this have never thought about it, they just say that they believe in what they were taught - they take for granted that "it's true because everyone else said so."

Also, just thought I'd add that I pretty much agree with what Lena has said so far... no need to repeat it in my words.

Well, I was including Muslims and Jews in that. Do you still contest it?

[Armeggadon]

Considering Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. We all worship the same God, but it's with the Messiah that we have differences.

Then why do you consider yourself Christian... what is so much better about Jesus that makes you follow him instead of someone else or just pray to God in general... Jesus is not a god, and to pray to him as a god is blasphemy is it not? This is one of the main reasons why I don't understand religion and nobody has ever cleared it up for me... we're all supposedly God's children, so what exactly made Jesus so special?

I'm not an atheist, I believe that the universe is far to large for there not to be some higher power out there, but, at the same time, I don't believe that this higher power controls us, or things that happen to us... I'm just slightly confused as to why you turned to Christianity... if you've ever read any of the other "holy tomes" each God actually does sound quite different, with the Christian god being one of the most benevolent.

[Reflectionist]

Considering Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. We all worship the same God, but it's with the Messiah that we have differences.

Then why do you consider yourself Christian... what is so much better about Jesus that makes you follow him instead of someone else or just pray to God in general... Jesus is not a god, and to pray to him as a god is blasphemy is it not? This is one of the main reasons why I don't understand religion and nobody has ever cleared it up for me... we're all supposedly God's children, so what exactly made Jesus so special?

I'm not an atheist, I believe that the universe is far to large for there not to be some higher power out there, but, at the same time, I don't believe that this higher power controls us, or things that happen to us... I'm just slightly confused as to why you turned to Christianity... if you've ever read any of the other "holy tomes" each God actually does sound quite different, with the Christian god being one of the most benevolent.

Are you seriously mistaking my non-violent or offensive approach to Muslims' and Jews' beliefs as claiming that seperate religions don't matter? It does matter. I don't believe those religions are right, but I don't have to be an asshole about it to prove my point.

Jesus is God, in human form. And the Holy Spirit is God, in spirit form. Similar to the way Ice, Water, and Steam are all Dihydrogen monoxide, while still retaining characteristics that make them seperate. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

That's kind of the point of Christianity. That's what I believe.


EDIT - and the way you said what I bolded up there, makes you sound extremely intolerant, even somewhat offensive. It sounds like you're taking the stance of "Well, it's obvious that this isn't real and it's obvious that no one would seriously believe this stuff." And I don't know, but I think Contro has some rules about that. Unless I was completely mistaken, and then you're off the hook by me.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 06:23 PM.

[Selena]

and yet the most atheistic countries in the world are the most peaceful ones, and the majority of all wars are started over religion...

That's a pretty false statement, actually. The most atheistic country is China, and I've not heard many good things about it. America and Britain are actually quite religious. It's fundamentalists who start religious wars, and that's because they stop practicing the religion as it should be practiced. Those in the Middle East causing strife aren't exactly following Islam. They aren't even allowed to call a Jihad on anything unless it's called for by a caliph, and there hasn't been one since the Ottoman Empire fell. So while religion is often used as a tool for slaughter, it's only man who starts the war.

Most logic behind God i highly doubt just because there are so many blind followers. ... With this theory it's basically saying that God and Satan are one in the same, which would fault pretty much the entire bible (so who tempted eve to eat the apple again?)

It doesn't fault the Bible, because in the Bible, they're different entities. If you see them as the same guy, then of course the Bible won't make sense in that regard. But that's because of your beliefs, not how the Bible is written. As I said earlier, God is not always nice. There are also those who see Satan as being nothing more than a servant of God, rather than a nemesis.

Jesus is not a god

Jesus IS God. I know, it's slightly confusing, but it's a cornerstone for most branches of Christianity. I think there are a few who see him as his own person, though.

[SOAP]

Could people please stop saying Jesus is not God. I know I'm just repeating what Selena and others have stated but to tell a Christian it's okay it believe in God but not in Jesus being God is stupid. I don't believe he is God personally since I don't think there is a god to begin with but to tell a Christian to believe otherwise, you might as well tell them to not be Christian at all. It's an important part of their faith, regardless if it's true or not it's core to their beliefs. It would be like telling a Muslim it's okay to be Muslim as long as they deny Muhammad as their prophet. Christians are Christians because they believe Christ is God in human form. If they don't they're not Christian.

[Reflectionist]

Could people please stop saying Jesus is not God. I know I'm just repeating what Selena and others have stated but to tell a Christian it's okay it believe in God but not in Jesus being God is stupid. I don't believe he is God personally since I don't think there is a god to begin with but to tell a Christian to believe otherwise, you might as well tell them to not be Christian at all. It's an important part of their faith, regardless if it's true or not it's core to their beliefs. It would be like telling a Muslim it's okay to be Muslim as long as they deny Muhammad as their prophet. Christians are Christians because they believe Christ is God in human form. If they don't they're not Christian.

XD "Selena and others" AKA "Selena and Ref"

[Arturo]

Believing Christ to be God is nota cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

[Reflectionist]

Believing Christ to be God is nota cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

http://www.jesus-is-...om/jesusgd2.htm

Here's a whole entire page of Scripture that not so much references or implies, but states that Jesus is God. Although I will admit, without direct references, only pieces of verses, some of the scripture is iffy at best. And some might portray a completely different context than what is trying to be explained. Some of it even strikes me as biased propaganda, but the last verses mentioned are wholly there, and there is no room to mistake it under the grounds of context.

John 1:1-2 says:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

And then John 1:14 goes on to state:
The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

If that doesn't say "Jesus is God" then I don't know what would.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 07:10 PM.

[Showsni]

The Trinity is confusing...
St. Patrick illustrated it with the shamrock, according to legend; three leaves connected to form one plant.
Messianics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Apostolic Pentecostals are some Chrstian sects that don't believe in it...

[Reflectionist]

The Trinity is confusing...
St. Patrick illustrated it with the shamrock, according to legend; three leaves connected to form one plant.
Messianics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Apostolic Pentecostals are some Chrstian sects that don't believe in it...

I like the water illustration. :-)

And I don't know that much about those sects. My mom's boss is a Jehovah's Witness though, and I had a friend in H.S. who was a Jehovah's Witness. From what I know of them from him, Scripture doesn't back up that one a lot. They believe that Jesus wasn't crucified, that he was nailed to a stake, there are all these other unnecessary inconsistencies. So I don't know if the fact that they don't believe in the Trinity holds much water.

Um, no pun intended.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 07:20 PM.

[SOAP]

Believing Christ to be God is not a cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

They're probably about as much Christian as Christians are Jews.

[Reflectionist]

Believing Christ to be God is not a cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

They're probably about as much Christian as Christians are Jews.

Aw, SOAP, would've been better if you'd posted "Yeah, they call those people 'Jews.' "

I think, anyway.....


(Man, I'm postwhoring today.)

[SOAP]

Believing Christ to be God is not a cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

They're probably about as much Christian as Christians are Jews.

Aw, SOAP, would've been better if you'd posted "Yeah, they call those people 'Jews.' "

I think, anyway.....


(Man, I'm postwhoring today.)

But Jews didn't branch off from Christianity.

Edited by SOAP, 18 December 2007 - 07:28 PM.

[Reflectionist]

But Jews didn't branch off from Christianity.

No, you're right, it was the other way around. I just suggested it for it's humorous value. That's all. Feel free to disregard.

[Selena]

Believing Christ to be God is nota cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God.

Jesus IS God. I know, it's slightly confusing, but it's a cornerstone for most branches of Christianity. I think there are a few who see him as his own person, though.

Christianity isn't a uniform thing. I'm well aware of it. Every denomination takes a different approach. I can't recall which denominations see Jesus as being separate, but for most, he's God in human form. It doesn't make people any more or less Christian. It's just a different way to go about it. But it's not simply a 'Christian community' thing - entire branches of the religion have it worked into their beliefs. Unless you meant denomination by using the phrase 'Christian community'?

[wisp]

You also have to consider, when saying that your god has the largest amount of "followers," they are basing this on surveys that they have done. The data only include the people who were surveyed, and who's to say which parts of the population they represented? Additionally, a lot of people list themselves as members of whatever religion their family claims, while they do not necessarily believe in (or even know) the doctrines, and they don't necessarily practice these religions or contemplate what they really believe god to be. The majority of people I know who are like this have never thought about it, they just say that they believe in what they were taught - they take for granted that "it's true because everyone else said so."

Also, just thought I'd add that I pretty much agree with what Lena has said so far... no need to repeat it in my words.

Well, I was including Muslims and Jews in that. Do you still contest it?

Yes, I'm aware you were including Muslims and Jews. And I wasn't trying to necessarily refute or contest anything, I was just trying to give the statement a bit of perspective... Yes, surveys may show that one particular god is "believed-in" more than all the others, but if you look at the true believers out of the bunch, they might not be quite such an overwhelming majority.

[Armeggadon]

Okay, so you feel that Jesus is God, I've heard both sides of the story, as well as being taught both sides (was raised catholic and went to several different churches (Christian and non-christian) for different experiences, they all taught the bible differently, part of why I'm extremely anti-establishment because most people don't find what to believe on their own, and are simply taught to follow blindly) I believe that Jesus is not God, but that is my personal view (though I'm pretty sure I remember more of the bible being Jesus telling of the lord and not claiming he was the lord (ex. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -1st Timothy 2:5))

Now, onto the unanswered question still... why choose Christianity over other religions. You said yourself that the only difference is in messiah's and then state that the messiah is the god, yet you're basing this on a single book... What exactly makes christianity so appealing...
Honestly, I just want to understand you're logic in choosing Christianity over other religions... You claim they're "wrong" but why? You said yourself they believe in the same god

I've asked this to many of my religious friends and I think maybe 1 has actually said they've even looked into other religions. If you haven't studied other religions or read their religious books then I won't continue this because it's absolutely pointless when someone doesn't even attempt to understand another religion.

side note

The most atheistic country is China, and I've not heard many good things about it

umm... no... more than 75% of china practices Buddhism or Taoism (the two main religions of China), the most atheisitic country is Sweden and nothing every happens there XD

I'll look at this again in the morning, but I'm not expecting to reply again. For now though, I sleep.

Edited by Armeggadon, 18 December 2007 - 10:49 PM.

[wisp]

Most forms of Buddhism are essentially atheistic, and I believe Taoists often lack belief in any actual deities.

[Selena]

umm... no... more than 75% of china practices Buddhism or Taoism (the two main religions of China), the most atheisitic country is Sweden and nothing every happens there XD

*shrug* Wiki said China was 40% non-religious, but I suppose it depends on which demographics chart you go off of. I think you can follow elements of Tao and be an atheist at the same time. It's heavy on philosophy. Although I suppose Sweden is a bit more extreme, now that you mention it. But nothing ever really happens there for the same reason nothing happens in Canada - they stay out of the way. I don't think religion, or lack there of, is the source for their peace. Sweden swore off fighting and war for your common sense reasons, not because religion stopped fueling hate. Sweden had a state church for ages, up until this decade, even if it wasn't popular.

[Reflectionist]

[disregard]

Edited by Reflectionist, 19 December 2007 - 02:48 AM.

[Arturo]

Believing Christ to be God is nota cornerstone of Christianism, but of most Christian communities. There are Christians that believed and believe he isn't God. And Jesus himself never claims to be a God, he claims to be the Son of God.

http://www.jesus-is-...om/jesusgd2.htm

Here's a whole entire page of Scripture that not so much references or implies, but states that Jesus is God. Although I will admit, without direct references, only pieces of verses, some of the scripture is iffy at best. And some might portray a completely different context than what is trying to be explained. Some of it even strikes me as biased propaganda, but the last verses mentioned are wholly there, and there is no room to mistake it under the grounds of context.

John 1:1-2 says:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

And then John 1:14 goes on to state:
The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

If that doesn't say "Jesus is God" then I don't know what would.

I didn't say that the Bible doesn't support the statement "Jesus is God". I said that Jesus himself never claims to be God. Except in John, which is generally regarded as a historically unfaithful Gospel (it's teh latest of all canonic ones). You can be Christian without using the Bible. Mainly because there's nothing we can objectively call the Bible. For me Maccabeans 1 and 2 are as canonic, and such are part of the Bible, as Kings 1 and 2. For Orthodox people, Maccabeans 3 and 4 (if I recall correctly), are part of the Bible as well. But most Protestants wouldn't call these books a part of the Bible.

And you can't say that those books have no bearing in beliefs, because that's false. Praying for the salvation of death people, which is an important Catholic belief,
is based on the 2nd Book of Maccabeans.

They're probably about as much Christian as Christians are Jews.

Then St. Paul wasn't a Christian. Great.

[TheAvengerLever]

I didn't say that the Bible doesn't support the statement "Jesus is God". I said that Jesus himself never claims to be God. Except in John, which is generally regarded as a historically unfaithful Gospel (it's teh latest of all canonic ones). You can be Christian without using the Bible. Mainly because there's nothing we can objectively call the Bible. For me Maccabeans 1 and 2 are as canonic, and such are part of the Bible, as Kings 1 and 2. For Orthodox people, Maccabeans 3 and 4 (if I recall correctly), are part of the Bible as well. But most Protestants wouldn't call these books a part of the Bible.

And you can't say that those books have no bearing in beliefs, because that's false. Praying for the salvation of death people, which is an important Catholic belief,
is based on the 2nd Book of Maccabeans.

Practically everything Jesus says is confirmation that he is the Son of God.

[Arturo]

Yet he explicitly claims to be that very few times. And, also the King of Israel is called "Son of God" in the Old Testament (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13, Psalms 2:7;89:27), and no-one claims David to be God.
And Son of God and God are different things.

Edited by Arturo, 19 December 2007 - 03:55 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Jesus often claims to BE God.

"I and the Father are one"
"I AM"
etc. etc.

Edited by Reflectionist, 19 December 2007 - 04:19 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

"Before Abraham was I Am"

Come on, people.

[Nevermind]

Most forms of Buddhism are essentially atheistic, and I believe Taoists often lack belief in any actual deities.

Well, PROPER Buddhism removes the idea of "God" and implements Chi/Reiki/Life Energy. Taoism, however, still has a pantheon, the most common based on the traditional Chinese pantheon.

[Travuko]

First off, about this whole Jesus is/isn't God debate is too unprovable for me. There are many scriptures that explain quite well whether he is or isn't God, but are so many scriptures that aren't quite as explicit. Quite frankly I find them rather vague. There is no way any one side is going to convince me they are right using scripture alone. The bible to me just isn't very clear on anything for matter. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject. But for the record, I believe Jesus, God and the holy ghost are all separate beings. More on the further down.

Now, going back to the whole God couldn't exist because he's not fair to everyone or God must exist, just look at all the merciful evidence. Let's see if I can make myself perfectly clear. If there is a supreme being and he/she/it is going to create a universe and all the physics and chemistry and biology, literally everything, the I would imagine that supreme being wouldn't leave all the events and stuff that happens up to chance. I would imagine the supreme being would kind of plan things out a little. Or better yet, perhaps not planed but maybe in all his infinite wisdom, he just knows what's going to happen and can intervene when it's necessary for his ultimate purpose. At any rate being the creator of all things I don't think it would be necessary for him to explain his purpose to his creations. Maybe his intentions are good and there are perfectly good justifications for the seemingly cruelty towards his peoples. Or maybe he is completely indifferent to the sufferings of the human population and the only reason for our existence is something other than what most religions teach us, something other than to return to God in a glorified state. Again, it doesn't matter because he would be the supreme creator and he would have some reason for his design.

OK yes, that is a very unchristian way of looking at things. But then again, most Christians (I think) believe Jesus is God and Jesus/God is also a merciful father-like figure. Let me tell you what I have been taught and what I believe, and I have to summarize for time and space reasons.

God created the earth and all of mankind so our spirit can gain a body. Up in heaven there was a debate on how things should function down on earth and two plans were proposed. One plan would ensure all of us would return to God, but that would take away our free agency and none of us would really gain any experience from that. And not to mention instigator of that plan wanted all of the glory for himself. The other plan was to give us our free agency, freedom to choose how to live our own lives, and only the righteous ones can return to God. And all the glory would go to God. Most of us liked that plan a whole lot better except there was a problem. There need to be a form a punishment for our sins we'd inevitably commit because of our free agency. But God couldn't just punish all the wicked without giving them a chance, there had to be some mercy in there somewhere or obviously none of us would make it. So, Jesus came up with a plan. Oh and by the way, he was the one behind the whole free agency plan too, in fact this was his whole plan in the first place. Why not let Jesus take the rap for the entire human population, or rather just the ones that accept him as their lord and savior. In other words, we'd do the crime, but he'd get punished for it so long as we repent and follow Jesus. That way justice and be served and mercy and be given. It was a beautifully simple plan and one that works for everybody. God can be God and do things accordingly to his own purpose without us questioning his methods, and we can all take piece in knowing we can live on forever in glorified state so long as we accept Jesus and live Christ like lives.

That's it in a nut shell, thank you for accepting my 1 and 1/2 cents. (I'm a little short this month, I pick up the rest next time.)

[SOAP]

First off, about this whole Jesus is/isn't God debate is too unprovable for me.

Well the simple solution is that there is no God so whether Jesus said he is God or not it doesn't matter. But I guess that's way too simple of a solution. All I know is, when I was Christian the way I understood it was that Jesus is suppose to be the physical manifestation of God. Kinda like an avatar from Hindu mythology. In that sense, he's the son of God because he's an extension of Yahweh. I never understood it in the literal sense that God came down from heaven and impregnated Jesus' mortal mother Mary. God isn't Zeus and Jesus isn't Dionysus, though comparisons aren't unprecedented.

[Toast]

I do believe in God, albeit in a black and white sense. I feel God exists because people make him real; when you go to church you perpetuate a certain image of God, and that image in turn inspires and communicates with other people. In other words, we make God a living, interacting thing. That said, I do not feel God is a sentient being, but rather an idea / ideal such as love, peace, etc.

The following might be quirky and offensive to some Christians, so I advise you to read at your own risk:

As to whether Jesus is in fact God, I have to disagree. Just because someone embodies Christian ideals, makes sacrifices for his fellow man, and inspires the masses does not make them the flesh of God. Was Gandhi, Mother Teresa, or Martin Luther King the second coming of Christ or the embodiment of God? They, and Jesus, were all above human ideals and were all recognized accordingly, but to embody God is like embodying love, or wisdom. You can display it, you can live by it, but you can't BE it.

I'm afraid I jumped in late in this conversation, but I did read your story Reflectionist and I'm happy for your coming to God and your overcoming of those trials. I'm not going to say your faith is 'right' or 'wrong', nor do I think of it in those terms, because faith is inherently a personal endeavor (just as my views on God and Jesus are my personal holdings). Religion is what you make of it, and I feel you personify that primarily because it was your tribulation that spawned your views (or so I gathered). I hope thats what you were asking, I'm afraid I didn't take the time to read through the other two pages of responses other than those directly above my own.

Sorry for the seemingly random meandering of my argument.

[TheAvengerLever]

I'm sorry, did you just say "someone embodies Christian ideals" in reference to Jesus?


Cause...until him, Christian ideals didn't exist