71 replies to this topic

[Reflectionist]

First of all, this will primarily, be a 'Religion' topic. And, as hard to believe as it sounds, this wouldn't fit anywhere else. So please, bear with me.

This topic spawned from my thoughts about the thread with the painting in it, but it was a wierd train of thought. Don't bother asking me how it happened. I just wanted to share my views on Christianity... At least now that I've rethought most of them, thanks to you guys.

This should probably be in another forum, but as it's Christianity related, and is slightly apologetical, I thought I'd post it here first.

Basically, what I wanted to do was share a little bit about my life, and explain it in a specific way. I don't want to like, play the emo 'you don't know me' card, but I've been through quite a bit... and the outcome of it all just, to me, points to God's existance. I don't think this should be as much of a debate, as a 'post where you stand and leave it at that' subject. Even though there'll probably be some debating, because I'm an imperfect human being and will want to defend from any disagreements.

When reading this, remember a few things:
1. I'm certainly not looking for pity.
2. I'm not looking for a Drumpf card.
3. I just want you to understand my belief, and more importantly, the reason behind them.
4. I'm keeping it in spoiler tags so that people who revisit the topic don't have to scroll a really long way.

I'm here again
A thousand miles away from You
A broken mess, just scattered pieces of who I am
I tried so hard
Thought I could do this on my own
I've lost so much along the way

Then I'll see Your face
I know I'm finally Yours
I find everything I thought I lost before
You call my name and I come to You in pieces
So You can make me whole

This morning, I lost internet access on my computer. So I went to my mom's computer to check my facebook and such, and just do my normal hanging out online stuff I do all the time. This computer used to be the family computer, so I used to have all of my music and files and such on here. I was curious and bored, so I decided to look around and see if there was any of it left.

Well, there wasn't, but I did find a mysterious .txt file called "My Son." naturally, I was curious, and opened it, and read it.

And what I read... brought tears to my eyes. Some of this information was never revealed to me. I was too young to remember. In this text file, my mom used the word 'routine' a lot. When something happened that was considered 'routine...' it hardly ever was. I was too different. Things were never routine around me.

A surgery I had when I was days old began with "routine" and ended with "there was nothing more that could be done for him, take him home and let him live out his days."

First they told my mother I wouldn't live to the age of 3. Then, not even to Kindergarten. Then to 9. Then to 12. Then 16. In that time alone, I've had 26 operations. Spawning from 'routine.'

Then they said I'd need a kidney transplant. And I would be on dialysis in early 2006. And they admitted that was optimistic. The wait for a kidney on the transplant list takes, routinely, 2 years.....and what happens next, my mom words better than I ever could.

"Jake was on the transplant list for 3 weeks when they called and told us they had a match. A little 5 year old girl had died in an accident. The call came in at 6:45 p.m.; Jake was at the High School playing in the band at a basketball game. My husband went to get him while I packed, and off we went. “Routine”. We arrived at KU medical center in Kansas City, just before 11:00 p.m., they were waiting for us, his room was ready. The kidney had not arrived yet, but the surgery was scheduled for 6:00 the next morning. Jake was in for four hours when Dr. Scheinman came out and told us the news, Jakes blood vessels had for some reason collapsed and they could not find one big enough to support the new kidney. “Routine”. Someone else’s life would be saved on this day. Jake took the news better than I did. The next day he was ready to get out of bed and start healing, he wanted to leave the hospital as soon as possible. 13 days later he was back in school, without a new kidney."

Then....


"My baby turned 18 on Sunday, another stair the doctors said he would not climb. He had an appointment with Dr. Scheinman last week. He is holding his own for now. Dr. Scheinman said if you had asked him two months ago, he would have told you he would be on dialysis by now. Not getting any better, but not getting any worse either. "

And then, I met my father. I'd never known him. He left my mother while she was pregnant with me. We expected the meeting to be awkward. It wasn't at all. It was great. Something I never thought would or could happen.

December 2006.
"Another Christmas has come and gone. I love taking pictures of Jake when he looks so happy. Chris, my husband, has tested to see if he is a match for transplant, he is. However, he has high blood pressure and may be too high a risk. But, maybe as our last resort. Jake is still holding his own. Senior pictures were taken before Christmas break, wow, a senior, fooled those doctors, AGAIN. But graduation is still so far away"

Again. Another obstacle. Gone. Again.

And from there... my mom hasn't written anymore... so let me fill you in. I didn't go on dialysis in early 2006. I had the procedure for the hemocath done in the first week of August 2007. After I had graduated. That was when I went back on the transplant list.

September 13th 2007. I got the call. This one worked. It happened. The journey... is finished. It is done. Conquered.

And after I finished reading this, and reflecting on it... I got to thinking.... what's in store for me in the future? It has to be something grand. It has to be something God-ordained.

3 years old. Conquered.
Kindergarten? Conquered.
9. Conquered. 12. Conquered.
26 surgeries? Conquered.
2 years wait? Conquered. Twice.
High School? Conquered.
Meeting my father. Conquered.
My childhood... conquered.
Disability. Conquered.
Weakness. Conquered.

And I didn't do a single flipping thing. What power do I have to conquer such monumental giants? Who am I to have that power? No... I'm just routine. Just a guy.

My God, however, is not routine. Anything but. My God must have conquered those things. And not only that. They must've been like childs play for Him. You know why? Because of what I know that my God has conquered.

And He will conquer it in me as well.

DEATH. CONQUERED.

This is my conviction. The reason for my faith.
Every breath I take literally is a testimony to the existance and power of God.

Well, thank you for reading all of that, if you did. It means a lot.

Now um.... discuss.


EDIT - didn't like the way the phrase 'christian topic' came out. Sounded elitist. So I changed it.

Edited by Reflectionist, 17 December 2007 - 06:51 AM.

[vodkamaru]

I always wonder why people never attribute disease to god, but they attribute getting better to him. I say the strength of you and your family is what got you through all of this.

[SOAP]

Actually there ARE people that attribute disease to God as a form of "just punishment" on anyone who doesn't agree with their set of beliefs. But I don't need to remind y'all about THOSE people.

Personally I think "God" is just a filler for whatever humans don't understand. Like how lightning used to be some supernatural thing that no one could explain so it had to be the gods. Nowadays science has explained lightning and many other phenomenons that we now understand as perfectly natural but whatever we don't know we still attribute to God. A person of strong faith cheats death time after time and the assumption is that it's a miracle of God. Does it prove he did? Some might believe so. Is there any proof he didn't? Maybe not. The only thing we can prove here is that doctor don't know everything. There's [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] science can't explain just yet.

It could be some supernatural higher power. Or it could be there's just something about the Reflectionists' mind and/or body that medical science hasn't discovered yet. It could very well be that simply having faith empowered him and his family and changed his condition for the better. It could be that whole "Mind over Matter" thing that still has scientist baffled these days. There's so much about our own minds we don't understand yet so it could very will be that a person's mind can not only affect their own health but also the health of others, and in Reflectionist's case it was his mother's strong mindset and possibly the rest of his family that saved him. Whatever this positive energy was, if he wants to personify as God that's his prerogative. Even though I don't think there is any actual God aside from the gods we create in our own minds, I still think it's important to believe in God anyways, just as it's important to believe in Justice, Love, and Kindness. All of them man-made concepts that aren't the truth of the cold and uncaring universe we live in but we strive for them anyways. God is just the personification of these things and gives humans something to reach for as if we were trying to get to know an actual person.

And well, religion is part of the human experience. As much as I have disdain for most Christians and how sometimes I just want to try to be mean and tell them there is no God and they're being silly, I'd be sad if the religion no longer existed. Christianity has many positive aspects still and it's scriptures hold some poetic beauty that become even beautiful when shared by someone who genuine believes in the power of it's word.

Edited by SOAP, 17 December 2007 - 11:17 PM.

[Reflectionist]

I always wonder why people never attribute disease to god, but they attribute getting better to him. I say the strength of you and your family is what got you through all of this.

"If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it."
"God won't give you anything you can't handle."

I'll attribute the disease to God. No problem. But it's not a source of contempt for Him, and it doesn't have to be. It's not like Silas from the Da Vinci Code. God would potentially do that in order to prove His power by healing. Especially in today's society of doubters and haters.

And the things that have been said that have attributed to it.... like my family, or will. Could those not be Tools?


And just so you guys know, the way my mom works, she would've just written that in that specific way to manipulate others into that same thought about her. She is analytical, and cold, and calculating. She can change her attitude towards someone in a second, and on a whim. She can ignore you and smother you at the same time. Quite frankly, I don't even like her. She doesn't go to church, she doesn't own a Bible, she hardly ever prays, but she talks like she does it all the time. I think she's a hypocrite. But she is my mother.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 12:09 AM.

[Fizzbit]

"If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it."
"God won't give you anything you can't handle."

I'm sorry but that just sounds screwed up there. First of all, concerning the first, "God" supposedly brings us to all our illnesses. Not everyone "gets through it". And the people who died weren't able to handle what "God" gave them.

It's a strength and love of a family and the will to survive, is what I think and believe.

Edited by Fizzbit, 18 December 2007 - 01:17 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one.

I'm sorry but that just sounds screwed up there. First of all, concerning the first, "God" supposedly brings us to all our illnesses. Not everyone "gets through it". And the people who died weren't able to handle what "God" gave them.

Not everyone is a tool to glorify the healing power of the Lord. Some people die so that others besides themselves may be healed.

[Fizzbit]

But in the end, all of these illnesses and wrongs done unto people are initially started by "God" and he's the one that lets them die so that he can save another? "Oh hey I'm gonna make you all sick but I'm too busy with these guys over here so sorry, Billy, Sue and Jimmy but you gotta die. You're just not on my priority list." Yeah. Real kind, loving, nurturing god there. Not cleaning up his mess.

[Reflectionist]

But in the end, all of these illnesses and wrongs done unto people are initially started by "God" and he's the one that lets them die so that he can save another? "Oh hey I'm gonna make you all sick but I'm too busy with these guys over here so sorry, Billy, Sue and Jimmy but you gotta die. You're just not on my priority list." Yeah. Real kind, loving, nurturing god there. Not cleaning up his mess.

for the ones that die, there are exponentially more people who live

[Fizzbit]

It doesn't matter. If you're gonna make them sick, why only fix a few?

[Selena]

Population control? Disease related death occurs in every species, so why would god make us exempt? We may be god's shiny impressive creatures, but we're still just creatures on a little ball with only so much room. And we've cleverly avoided the 'death by sabretooth tiger/mammoth/thing with big teeth' method of execution. Unless you're Jeff Corwin and deliberately looking for trouble or something.

On another note, I thought the spoilered story was rather sweet. I don't think it really matters what the real reason behind survival is. Whether it's divine intervention or triumph of personal spirit, hey... least you're winning. And if the thought of divine intervention is soothing, then all the better. I believe in it myself, to a smaller degree. Sad that people are quick to try and rip that option apart.

[Reflectionist]

On another note, I thought the spoilered story was rather sweet. I don't think it really matters what the real reason behind survival is. Whether it's divine intervention or triumph of personal spirit, hey... least you're winning. And if the thought of divine intervention is soothing, then all the better. I believe in it myself, to a smaller degree. Sad that people are quick to try and rip that option apart.

Thank you. And the last sentence: it happens. It's Contro. Wouldn't be without that.

[Fizzbit]

Oh I'm not gonna contest the sweetness factor at all. But I'm just not a divine intervention fan at all. I believe in the strength of the human surivival instinct.

My band teacher gave birth to triplets earlier this year, three and a half months premature. The smallest was 1 lb 1 oz. No one expected her to live. Yet here she is, almost a year old and is extremely healthy. Throughout all the doctor visits, no one was asked to pray or give praise to any God that the little girl was making it through. Through extremely non-religious efforts, this tiny girl has come out on top. When the girl came off her oxygen and was able to come home all by herself and join her sisters, the thanks was given to friends and family, not to God. The little girl was a fighter. She ended up being the first out of the triplets to roll over and lift her head. Only problem she's having now is gaining weight quickly.

The power of human will really is amazing. Some absolutely refuse to die, some give up the will to live altogether, others find a halfway point, waiting for some sort of closure before finally letting go.

Edit: Almost a year old, not a month.

Edited by Fizzbit, 18 December 2007 - 03:34 AM.

[Reflectionist]

Oh I'm not gonna contest the sweetness factor at all. But I'm just not a divine intervention fan at all. I believe in the strength of the human surivival instinct.

My band teacher gave birth to triplets earlier this year, three and a half months premature. The smallest was 1 lb 1 oz. No one expected her to live. Yet here she is, almost a year old and is extremely healthy. Throughout all the doctor visits, no one was asked to pray or give praise to any God that the little girl was making it through. Through extremely non-religious efforts, this tiny girl has come out on top. When the girl came off her oxygen and was able to come home all by herself and join her sisters, the thanks was given to friends and family, not to God. The little girl was a fighter. She ended up being the first out of the triplets to roll over and lift her head. Only problem she's having now is gaining weight quickly.

The power of human will really is amazing. Some absolutely refuse to die, some give up the will to live altogether, others find a halfway point, waiting for some sort of closure before finally letting go.

Edit: Almost a year old, not a month.

Oh, and God needs to have permission before intervening?

[Fizzbit]

Considering the power of medical science today as opposed to 50 years ago? The little girl would have died 50 years ago. Everything that happens is manmade, not spiritual.

If God decides to be an ass and tear people away from life without warning, I think he should need permission before intervening. If a man can be hated and spat upon for killing a person, then I can spit upon God for doing the same.

Edited by Fizzbit, 18 December 2007 - 03:41 AM.

[Reflectionist]

Considering the power of medical science today as opposed to 50 years ago? The little girl would have died 50 years ago. Everything that happens is manmade, not spiritual. [therefore nothing at all is spiritual??]

If God decides to be an ass and tear people away from life without warning, I think he should need permission before intervening. If a man can be hated and spat upon for killing a person, then I can spit upon God for doing the same.

Um... okay.

Is there a reason that post was absolutely *trying* to be offensive?

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 03:52 AM.

[Fizzbit]

Any reason people seem to defend God when he's able to help or hurt just as equally as my next door neighbor according to Christians?

[Reflectionist]

Any reason people seem to defend God when he's able to help or hurt just as equally as my next door neighbor according to Christians?

Because we can.

And you didn't answer my question.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 04:01 AM.

[Fizzbit]

Any reason people seem to defend God when he's able to help or hurt just as equally as my next door neighbor according to Christians?

Because we can.

Nice. I'm goin to bed.

[Reflectionist]

Any reason people seem to defend God when he's able to help or hurt just as equally as my next door neighbor according to Christians?

Because we can.

Nice. I'm goin to bed.

You do that.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 11:57 AM.

[Selena]

The power of medical science doesn't mean there isn't any kind of spiritual luck, or something of the sort. Medical technology is obviously going to be the basis for human health and survival, but that doesn't necessarily rule out any kind of divine intervention. Could even be a combination of both. It's not like you'd know. I'm not the sort to believe in absolutes. I think I'd miss a lot that way. Nor do I believe in the conventional god, I suppose.

If God decides to be an ass and tear people away from life without warning, I think he should need permission before intervening.

Gods don't generally need permission to do anything. It's a perk of the job.

No god, barring a very short list of some pagan ones, has ever been depicted as wholly good. I don't think any real god could be wholly good. Being cruel is actually a vital part of that same job. Cruel by human standards, anyway. Can't let people live forever in this place.

[Nevermind]

People delude themselves with glorifying Him through healing and whatnot. If He does it, it is most likely indirectly, as in: This is something that your body is able to do itself, some manage to use it some don't. Diseases are just other organisms that are incompatable with our bodies.

This means God neither directly causes nor prevents disease. Medicine is a gift given to us through technology. Everything is not man-made because then we would understand it all and we are far, far, FAR from that. This is not just Fizzbit's opinion but the opinion of pretty much every other person. They like to glorify themselves through their supposedly awesome technological feats because they can't claim anything natural for their own. Apparently the only REAL way to make yourself look better is to make someone else look bad. Or claim they don't exist. Both work to an extent.


Fizzbit is right about the human will to survive though. The body is powerful, but the mind is more powerful, and it controls the body. Willpower, Chi, Ki, call it what you will, but everyone has it and everyone can use it. Our minds and bodies came from somewhere though, and if that is from God, then this is a powerful gift we've been granted, and so if He does exist, it would be unfair to claim all the glory for yourself.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 18 December 2007 - 05:08 AM.

[Reflectionist]

Hmm... what if I told you that what happened to me wasn't the cause of any disease, but rather from physical deformities? That was something I didn't mention when I wrote it, because it was common knowledge for the readers it was meant for to begin with. I'm sorry.

This whole thing started with kidney reflux.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 05:59 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

If God decides to be an ass and tear people away from life without warning, I think he should need permission before intervening. If a man can be hated and spat upon for killing a person, then I can spit upon God for doing the same.

And then he can spit back. And drown you in a flood.

But that's not my point. You seem to think highly of medical intervention. Even though most of the time it doesn't save anyone. People die. That's life. Not God.

Any reason people seem to defend God when he's able to help or hurt just as equally as my next door neighbor according to Christians?

Cause if you allow God to do it, something good is gonna happen to you and eventually the people around you.


If a human does it, then hooray for the necrophilia and rape that ensues.

[Reflectionist]

If a human does it, then hooray for the necrophilia and rape that ensues.

Don't forget the orgies! [/sarcasm]

[Oberon Storm]

So without God we'll have necrophilia and rape? Absurd.

[Reflectionist]

So without God we'll have necrophilia and rape? Absurd.

Even I think it's absurd. I don't think life would be you know, all hearts, roses and rainbows without God, either though.

[Oberon Storm]

Why not? I'm agnostic so I'm not completely atheist, but I still wouldn't say there has been any supernatural influence in my life. The money situation could be better, but other than that, if that Care Bears curtain in my daughter's room is any indication, it's all hearts, roses, and rainbows for me.

[Armeggadon]

So without God we'll have necrophilia and rape? Absurd.

Even I think it's absurd. I don't think life would be you know, all hearts, roses and rainbows without God, either though.

and yet the most atheistic countries in the world are the most peaceful ones, and the majority of all wars are started over religion...

Most logic behind God i highly doubt just because there are so many blind followers. You seem to attach everything good that's happened to you to God and then the bad stuff just goes away... I assume that God just up and decided to save more people as our medical technology advanced and every now and then just feels the need for a mass genocide. With this theory it's basically saying that God and Satan are one in the same, which would fault pretty much the entire bible (so who tempted eve to eat the apple again?)

I'm glad that you've gotten better and It's fine to thank a higher being, but you're basically attributing everything to it and that that is the reason you are religious... if you ate pudding the whole time, i doubt you would start worshiping pudding for it's healing properties.

Edited by Armeggadon, 18 December 2007 - 02:17 PM.

[Reflectionist]

So without God we'll have necrophilia and rape? Absurd.

Even I think it's absurd. I don't think life would be you know, all hearts, roses and rainbows without God, either though.

and yet the most atheistic countries in the world are the most peaceful ones, and the majority of all wars are started over religion...(Yet war itself goes against any teaching Jesus or I would presume most religious leaders have had. Hypocritical political leaders maybe?)

Most logic behind God i highly doubt just because there are so many blind followers. You seem to attach everything good that's happened to you to God and then the bad stuff just goes away... (Not true, I acknowledge both. Just focus on the positive more. Is that wrong? I said life isn't just a bed of roses anyway.)I assume that God just up and decided to save more people as our medical technology advanced and every now and then just feels the need for a mass genocide. With this theory it's basically saying that God and Satan are one in the same, which would fault pretty much the entire bible (so who tempted eve to eat the apple again?) (Hmm. I wouldn't say God causes these things though. Like I said before, good and bad are opposites and equals, without one, you couldn't know the other. So without those grotesqueries (i use that word a lot....O_o) to define where God could work, how would we even have a perception of who or what He is?)

I'm glad that you've gotten better (thank you) and It's fine to thank a higher being, but you're basically attributing everything to it and that that is the reason you are religious... if you ate pudding the whole time, i doubt you would start worshiping pudding for it's healing properties. (No you're right. But pudding doesn't have the largest religious followings in the world, either. Considering Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. We all worship the same God, but it's with the Messiah that we have differences.)

Comments in bold.

Edited by Reflectionist, 18 December 2007 - 02:42 PM.

[wisp]

You also have to consider, when saying that your god has the largest amount of "followers," they are basing this on surveys that they have done. The data only include the people who were surveyed, and who's to say which parts of the population they represented? Additionally, a lot of people list themselves as members of whatever religion their family claims, while they do not necessarily believe in (or even know) the doctrines, and they don't necessarily practice these religions or contemplate what they really believe god to be. The majority of people I know who are like this have never thought about it, they just say that they believe in what they were taught - they take for granted that "it's true because everyone else said so."

Also, just thought I'd add that I pretty much agree with what Lena has said so far... no need to repeat it in my words.