108 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

I just think this is something that belongs in Zelda General.

[Picman]

Well, I thought it best to place it in the storyline section: after all, it DOES have to do with the storyline.

[SOAP]

I'm pagan!!!!

Forget everything I said earlier. It all makes sense now.

[Picman]

What makes sense to you now SOAP, may I inquire?

[Picman]

QUOTE(SteveT)
1) They ostensibly die if they leave the forest

That was kinda proven false by the ending, though...

And the Kokiri are forest spirits. They aren't born, nor do they die. They just "disappear" IRRC (Stated in an interview, I think).

As for the original post, what kind of retarded logic is that? Link is a Kokiri because they can leave the forest and Link did? Oh boy... [
While it is true that the "the Kokiri will die upon leaving the forest" rumor was most assuredly a LIE, as evidenced by what you said, and by the fact that their distant offspring do as well, I did NOT mean to say that just because Link left the forest and the Kokiri can as well was evidence: what I was meaning to say was that I reckon that the Deku Tree Sprout made a (addmittedly subtle) hint that Link was part Kokiri. That's just what I get from it, though.

[SOAP]

What makes sense to you now SOAP, may I inquire?

May I inquire why you are inquiring? Can't I say something without it having a double meaning? Gosh!

[MikePetersSucks]

Link can age past childhood. He's not Kokiri.
Link is a full-blooded Hylian in every other game. Occam's Razor tells us he's one in OOT too.
Link was already born when his mother stumbled into the Lost Woods. He was simply given to the Deku Tree as a baby, who sensed "destiny in the child."

Debate over. You lose.

[CID Farwin]

Well, that pretty much says it all.

[Picman]

Link can age past childhood. He's not Kokiri.
Link is a full-blooded Hylian in every other game. Occam's Razor tells us he's one in OOT too.
Link was already born when his mother stumbled into the Lost Woods. He was simply given to the Deku Tree as a baby, who sensed "destiny in the child."

Debate over. You lose.

Since WHEN does it say in ANY other game that he is FULL HYLIAN? In ALTTP it says he is DECSENDED from Hylians, not that he is FULL HYLIAN!!!! In no other game does it say he is FULL Hylian! As for the aging part, since he started in the Temple of Time, and then was sealed in the Temple of Light, that might have something to do with it. Also, since he is DEFINENTLY at least part Hylian, no matter which way you look at it, that might also help explain why he grew up. As to the last part: that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEBATE AT ALL! Remember the Gossip Stone that said that there was a Kokiri that left the forest? Well, I borrowed an explanation that might serve to explain who that unknown Kokiri was/is: remember the little guy who said "sell me something with C, sell me something with C"? Well, in Kakariko Village, we see him again and guess what: HE STAYS YOUNG ETERNALLY!!!! Either that or he is a dwarf. Whic I find unlikely. My point being that he could have been the one to impregnate Link's mom, using the Deku Tree's seeds. So it is possible after all!

[MikePetersSucks]

Since WHEN does it say in ANY other game that he is FULL HYLIAN? In ALTTP it says he is DECSENDED from Hylians, not that he is FULL HYLIAN!!!!

Link has pointed ears and the magical powers that was given only to the Hylians. Not only that, but he's descended from the pure, untainted line of the Hylian Knights. He's a Hylian.

As for the aging part, since he started in the Temple of Time, and then was sealed in the Temple of Light, that might have something to do with it. Also, since he is DEFINENTLY at least part Hylian, no matter which way you look at it, that might also help explain why he grew up.

In what sense is he a Kokiri if he ages? It's the only quality that separates them from the Hylians, really, and the fact that he ages is supposed to be the plot twist that reveals he's not a Kokiri at all. He didn't even get a fairy of his own until Navi showed up. He's not Kokiri by any definition.

As to the last part: that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEBATE AT ALL! Remember the Gossip Stone that said that there was a Kokiri that left the forest? Well, I borrowed an explanation that might serve to explain who that unknown Kokiri was/is: remember the little guy who said "sell me something with C, sell me something with C"?

It has everything to do with the debate. if Link was already born before he was given to the Deku Tree, how can he have Kokiri blood in him? And also, Gossip Stones aren't very reliable, since they're giving, oh my god: GOSSIP.

Well, in Kakariko Village, we see him again and guess what: HE STAYS YOUNG ETERNALLY!!!! Either that or he is a dwarf. Whic I find unlikely. My point being that he could have been the one to impregnate Link's mom, using the Deku Tree's seeds. So it is possible after all!

He could be a dwarf, or they just reused the same goddamn sprite. If I recall, only Malon, Link, Zelda, and Ruto actually age in ways we can observe. And there's still no proof that Kokiris can sexually reproduce.

OOT Link is a full-blooded Hylian. Everyone in the Zelda community on all forums, websites, circles, city, state, and country accept that except you.

[LionHarted]

Link has pointed ears and the magical powers that was given only to the Hylians. Not only that, but he's descended from the pure, untainted line of the Hylian Knights. He's a Hylian.

1) The Hylian line is stated to have NOT been untainted in ALttP.
2) What "magical powers given only to the Hylians"?
3) There are people with pointed ears who are not Hylian (Kokiri, Terminian, Gerudo, Sheikah, Rito, etc.).

And there's still no proof that Kokiris can sexually reproduce.

There's no proof that they can't, although they do have bloodlines.

[Picman]

Link has pointed ears and the magical powers that was given only to the Hylians. Not only that, but he's descended from the pure, untainted line of the Hylian Knights. He's a Hylian.

1) The Hylian line is stated to have NOT been untainted in ALttP.
2) What "magical powers given only to the Hylians"?
3) There are people with pointed ears who are not Hylian (Kokiri, Terminian, Gerudo, Sheikah, Rito, etc.).

And there's still no proof that Kokiris can sexually reproduce.

There's no proof that they can't, although they do have bloodlines.

Thank you, LionHarted: you just made my day by saying that! And plus, MikePetersSucks, I am NOT the only one who believes this: There are OTHER people who share the same views on this issue that I do! So you were WRONG when you stated that .

[Fizzbit]

3) There are people with pointed ears who are not Hylian (Kokiri, Terminian, Gerudo, Sheikah, Rito, etc.).

This has really nothing to do with the topic but I gotta point this out.

Gerudos have rounded ears. Take a look at any official art. In-game graphics were kinda "Eeeh" because rounded polygons were practically impossible to do with N64.

And Picman, why do you have to make it a point to use all-caps in every other sentence? It makes you look childish, immature, and unreasonably stubborn.

[LionHarted]

Gerudos have rounded ears. Take a look at any official art.

http://www.thehylia....001/hires10.gif
Pointy-ish.

http://www.thehylia....ndorf_large.jpg
Pointy.

http://www.thehylia..../z10_02_big.jpg
VERY pointy.

http://www.zeldauniv...ters/gerudo.gif
Can't really tell, but they definitely don't appear to be round.

[Picman]

3) There are people with pointed ears who are not Hylian (Kokiri, Terminian, Gerudo, Sheikah, Rito, etc.).

This has really nothing to do with the topic but I gotta point this out.

Gerudos have rounded ears. Take a look at any official art. In-game graphics were kinda "Eeeh" because rounded polygons were practically impossible to do with N64.

And Picman, why do you have to make it a point to use all-caps in every other sentence? It makes you look childish, immature, and unreasonably stubborn.

While they DO have SLIGHTLY rounded ears, Ganondorf's ears ARE more pointy than the others. And besides that, it does not diminish LionHarted's point about MikePetersSucks comments being dead wrong. To your comment about me making myself seem childish, immature and unresonably stubborn: I'm just trying to emphasize certain points, just in case anyone misses an extremely important word, so they get the right impression.

[Showsni]

Ganondorf's an exception to the rule.

Look at, say, Nabooru for a typical Gerudo.



Link's not necessarily a full blooded Hylian in any game, but he certainly has very strong Hylian blood. Saying that he's part tree, though, is quite a different matter. Or even that he's part Kokiri.

2) What "magical powers given only to the Hylians"?

ALttP manual:
"The Hylian people, who left behind these written records, were an elected (chosen) people able to hear the voices of gods. For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic."

This doesn't say only Hylians can use magic, though.

[Picman]

Ganondorf's an exception to the rule.

Look at, say, Nabooru for a typical Gerudo.



Link's not necessarily a full blooded Hylian in any game, but he certainly has very strong Hylian blood. Saying that he's part tree, though, is quite a different matter. Or even that he's part Kokiri.

2) What "magical powers given only to the Hylians"?

ALttP manual:
"The Hylian people, who left behind these written records, were an elected (chosen) people able to hear the voices of gods. For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic."

This doesn't say only Hylians can use magic, though.

Thank you for agreeing that it is possible for him to be part Kokiri, Showsni. Besides, Link may have grown up, but he was still a youth. And yes, he does have very strong Hylian blood. I'll concede to that.

[Person]

Link was brought to the forest as a baby. How could he be part-Hylian if his mother had never been in the forest to be impregnated by the Deku Tree? Reeks of Fanfic to me.

[Picman]

Link was brought to the forest as a baby. How could he be part-Hylian if his mother had never been in the forest to be impregnated by the Deku Tree? Reeks of Fanfic to me.

As I've mentioned before, the supposed Kokiri in the Hyrule Castle Market Town could have done it. I sincerely doubt him to be a dwarf seeing that, unless that was his natural height, he would NOT be a Hylian! And I also sincerely doubt the dwarf idea, judging from the fact his skin was green and he wore green clothing! I still have to go with the Gossip Stones, even if you think that they are unreliable, and their name has the word "gossip" in it. Gossip is sometimes true, and as far as I'm concerned, sometimes not so bad. And it could be reffering to their telepathic powers picking up information, and NOT to slander and misinformation! So there!

[MikePetersSucks]

2) What "magical powers given only to the Hylians"?

Telepathy, for one thing.

There's no proof that they can't, although they do have bloodlines.

Which can very easily be a spiritual metaphor.

MikePetersSucks, I am NOT the only one who believes this: There are OTHER people who share the same views on this issue that I do! So you were WRONG when you stated that

Name one.

Thank you for agreeing that it is possible for him to be part Kokiri, Showsni. Besides, Link may have grown up, but he was still a youth. And yes, he does have very strong Hylian blood. I'll concede to that.

He was disagreeing. Read better.

As I've mentioned before, the supposed Kokiri in the Hyrule Castle Market Town could have done it. I sincerely doubt him to be a dwarf seeing that, unless that was his natural height, he would NOT be a Hylian! And I also sincerely doubt the dwarf idea, judging from the fact his skin was green and he wore green clothing! I still have to go with the Gossip Stones, even if you think that they are unreliable, and their name has the word "gossip" in it. Gossip is sometimes true, and as far as I'm concerned, sometimes not so bad. And it could be reffering to their telepathic powers picking up information, and NOT to slander and misinformation! So there!

It's still fanfiction to believe that that ONE Kokiri had anything to do with Link. Hell, according to the OOT Manga, Link's father was an honorable Hylian Knight, and while it might not be canon, it's atleast more supportive than anything you've presented as an arguement.

Also keep in mind that the Gossip Stones support all kinds of crazy, unsupported ideas, and lots of people thought Link was a Kokiri anyway. And who said Gossip Stones have telepathic powers? It looks more like they just record whatever the hell they hear.

[Delphi]

I always thought that guy was kneeling and patting the ground. I don't see how you're getting dwarf from that. Even if it's the same character design or sprite or whatever, he's not the only one that stays the same as others have mentioned. There simply isn't enough room on the cart to age all the people without having to drop something else. Which means that they use the same design.

And gossip isn't always slander. But it's generally been passed around so much that it does get distorted. I'm pretty sure that the korkiri the gossip stone was referring to was Link himself. After all, the gossip stone that says that -I'm going to take a guess- is outside of the forest.

[LionHarted]

Telepathy, for one thing.

Source?

Which can very easily be a spiritual metaphor.

Which is precisely why it is a miracle that the spiritual (that is, non-literal) bloodline of the Zora sage managed to survive the "ravages of all the years". Because spiritual bloodlines, not literal ones, are actually affected by the passage of generations. /extreme sarcasm

[Picman]

[quote]MikePetersSucks, I am NOT the only one who believes this: There are OTHER people who share the same views on this issue that I do! So you were WRONG when you stated that[/quote]Name one. Well, since you ask, MikePetersSucks, I met this boy at a pagan meeting (ca'nt give out his name, that would be an invasion of privacy, I am confident that he would'nt want that) that shared the very same views I do. And plus, I read a fanfic on Ganon's Tower that, (despite being a fanfic), also agrees with me. Admittedly, that fanfic also says Navi stayed with him, because of him being half Kokiri, which I do'nt agree with, seeing as that even if Link was NOT annoyed with her, THREE fairies definently WOULD do the trick, and secondly, she HAD to make him go to Termina somehow, and she might not have had the time on the adventure. P.S. The writers of the stories are listed near the fanfics.

[quote]Thank you for agreeing that it is possible for him to be part Kokiri, Showsni. Besides, Link may have grown up, but he was still a youth. And yes, he does have very strong Hylian blood. I'll concede to that.[/quote]

He was disagreeing. Read better. He was saying that Link may or may not be full Hylian in ANY of the Zelda games.

[quote]As I've mentioned before, the supposed Kokiri in the Hyrule Castle Market Town could have done it. I sincerely doubt him to be a dwarf seeing that, unless that was his natural height, he would NOT be a Hylian! And I also sincerely doubt the dwarf idea, judging from the fact his skin was green and he wore green clothing! I still have to go with the Gossip Stones, even if you think that they are unreliable, and their name has the word "gossip" in it. Gossip is sometimes true, and as far as I'm concerned, sometimes not so bad. And it could be reffering to their telepathic powers picking up information, and NOT to slander and misinformation! So there![/quote]It's still fanfiction to believe that that ONE Kokiri had anything to do with Link. Hell, according to the OOT Manga, Link's father was an honorable Hylian Knight, and while it might not be canon, it's atleast more supportive than anything you've presented as an arguement.

Also keep in mind that the Gossip Stones support all kinds of crazy, unsupported ideas, and lots of people thought Link was a Kokiri anyway. And who said Gossip Stones have telepathic powers? It looks more like they just record whatever the hell they hear.[/quote]

I view the mangas as alternate realities to the "mainstream reality". And I do'nt agree that my arguments are any less plausible than the mangas. And oh, by the way, I do like the mangas (especially Cagiva Ataru's mangas), but I disagree with some elements in the mangas by "Himekawa Akira" (At least as far as the "mainstream reality" goes). Oh, and just for the record, MM shows us that alternate realities DO exist at least in Zelda, so my (actually I borrowed it from a person from the BS Zelda Homepage) "manga being alternate realities" suddenly has verified canon support. And I know that the Gossip Stones have information pretty much EVERYBODY KNOWS, but that just goes to show that sometimes, at least, Gossip Stones CAN have accurate information. And I do'nt know what you mean by them being "unreliable".

[Picman]

I always thought that guy was kneeling and patting the ground. I don't see how you're getting dwarf from that. Even if it's the same character design or sprite or whatever, he's not the only one that stays the same as others have mentioned. There simply isn't enough room on the cart to age all the people without having to drop something else. Which means that they use the same design.

But I very much doubt that he could have been kneeling, because he was backed almost all the way against the wall in BOTH places, I am pretty sure of that, and if his legs were very short, then that would support my theory.


And gossip isn't always slander. But it's generally been passed around so much that it does get distorted. I'm pretty sure that the korkiri the gossip stone was referring to was Link himself. After all, the gossip stone that says that -I'm going to take a guess- is outside of the forest.

And besides, even IF that Gossip Stone said that, then he could easily be reffering to the supposed
Kokiri who is in Hyrule Castle Market Town and Kakariko Villiage. And besides, he had green skin and green clothing, and before you rag on me, saying that his parellel self did too, which is true, let me explain one thing: IT'S A PARELLEL REALITY. It does not have to be (in fact should not be) the exact same thing: otherwise it would not be a parellel reality.

[Picman]

Oops, sorry, somehow some of my comments leaked into the quote I intended for someone else. (Ca'nt remember who it was). Oh, well, I hope at least you get my point.

[Fizzbit]

Gerudos have rounded ears. Take a look at any official art.

http://www.thehylia....001/hires10.gif
Pointy-ish.

http://www.thehylia....ndorf_large.jpg
Pointy.

http://www.thehylia..../z10_02_big.jpg
VERY pointy.

http://www.zeldauniv...ters/gerudo.gif
Can't really tell, but they definitely don't appear to be round.

Ganondorf was only officially "Gerudo" in Ocarina of Time.

Also in that first picture, his hair's kinda covering the top of his ear, giving the illusion of pointyness.

[CID Farwin]

..I don't believe this.

And besides, even IF that Gossip Stone said that, then he could easily be reffering to the supposed
Kokiri who is in Hyrule Castle Market Town and Kakariko Villiage. And besides, he had green skin and green clothing,

I'm looking at this guy RIGHT NOW! HE IS NOT A KOKIRI!!!

Oh, wait. I guess he has to be because he's got green clothes.

Edited by CID Farwin, 08 August 2007 - 01:20 PM.

[Picman]

..I don't believe this.

And besides, even IF that Gossip Stone said that, then he could easily be reffering to the supposed
Kokiri who is in Hyrule Castle Market Town and Kakariko Villiage. And besides, he had green skin and green clothing,

I'm looking at this guy RIGHT NOW! HE IS NOT A KOKIRI!!!

Oh, wait. I guess he has to be because he's got green clothes.

Then you agree with me? And the way I see it he has slightly green skin as well. Of course that may not be what you see in the picture. But I definently get the Kokiri vibe from him.

[ZimZum]

This topic makes my brain hurt.

[Delphi]

I don't mean to be rude (I really don't) but is English not your first language, Picman? I don't think you're understanding what CID said. Because I'm going to assume that smiley face means he's being sarcastic/facetious. It's hard to pick up online but the use of smiley faces do help. Which I believe is happening here.