80 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Considering you can follow most characters throughout their routines for the whole three days and you meet them regularly, I don't exactly know where the criticism that 'everyone would show up for two minutes, and then just disappear' is coming from.

Also, Tatl and Tael are more developed characters than Navi, and Skull Kid is arguably more developed than Ganondorf was in OoT. At least he has a backstory, Ganondorf in OoT is hugely underdeveloped. And Tatl does change over the course of the game, in case you're forgetting.

I don't know what other 'main' characters you mean. I think you'll find that the majority of 'main' characters in OoT, with the exception of Sheik/Zelda and Ganondorf, make suprisingly brief appearances.

As for all the side characters, MM's characters are so much more developed it's not worth discussing.

[spunky-monkey]

Hello! it's not taking over that land, it's a god almost causing an Apocalypse for the people of Termina!

What?



Majora's Mask wins for me because of the unique scenario and most of all because it is the darkest adventure Rinkydinklink has been through so far. The impending apocalypse and cataclysmic event that will destroy Termina can only be prevented by a small boy and while it may sound cliché it's not at all; this world is full of suffering and Link's become the very embodiment of hope.

You truly understand your role when the moon is allowed to crash and the music gets appropriately more haunting, yes the player can die in all other games too but only to continue again unharmed which is unrealistic, however in MM if the world gets obliterated you're reincarnated back to the first day in an eternal cycle unless disaster is averted - Gosh I'm amazed Osamu Tezuka didn't already think of this scenario for his Phoenix manga series.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by Fyxe
Considering you can follow most characters throughout their routines for the whole three days and you meet them regularly, I don't exactly know where the criticism that 'everyone would show up for two minutes, and then just disappear' is coming from.

That has nothing to do with the main story. The only time we really see the characters come out is during sidequests, which left the plot without any support.

Also, Tatl and Tael are more developed characters than Navi, and Skull Kid is arguably more developed than Ganondorf was in OoT. At least he has a backstory, Ganondorf in OoT is hugely underdeveloped. And Tatl does change over the course of the game, in case you're forgetting.

Tael doesn't develop, and Tatl has all of two scenes where she 'changes'. One of which, the only one with significant meaning, comes at the very end and is on par with scenes out of anime from Toonami.

By the way, saying that's something's more developed than OoT Ganondorf isn't an accomplishment...

I don't know what other 'main' characters you mean. I think you'll find that the majority of 'main' characters in OoT, with the exception of Sheik/Zelda and Ganondorf, make suprisingly brief appearances.

But they still have a role throughout the game. Impa, Darunia, Saria, Ruto, Zelda all don't just leave the spotlight for good once their first appearance is over. What does the Deku King and Princess do after you've saved the swamp? What does Darmani do after his one scene? What importance is Igos after he's gone? These characters, and most in MM, appear for one scene and then are gone from the storyline until the ending credits.

Though, then again, it's hard to argue with OoT as your support in this argument.

[LionHarted]

Well, Mirren, I think most of the character dynamic in MM came less from how big their role was in the game than how you had the ability to impact their fates. Romani being taken by aliens and Kafei's plans to stop Sakon being halted by your intervention with the Bomb Shop lady both represented the meat of what MM is: 1) you must take action to stop bad things from happening to the denizens of Termina, so that you don't have to witness them again; 2) you must navigate through "story puzzles" where your decisions in one case affect what decisions you can make later on.

It was this RPG element that made it such a hit.

[Hero of Legend]

I understand Mirren’s argument, though I should point out you meet most characters at least twice because of how you rewind time between different parts of the quest to open the way to the temples. Also, you have to remember that returning side characters weren't really that common until TP.

That said...

Tatl has all of two scenes where she 'changes'. One of which, the only one with significant meaning, comes at the very end and is on par with scenes out of anime from Toonami.

I'd disagree with that. Tatl was the first dynamic character in any Zelda game, and she did have quite a few moments where she really showed personality. Her "Wha...What are you, anyway?" is perhaps my favorite line from any Zelda game, simply because of the implications that go with it.

Besides, she was obviously the inspiration for Midna's character, and we are thankful for that.

But they still have a role throughout the game. Impa, Darunia, Saria, Ruto, Zelda all don't just leave the spotlight for good once their first appearance is over. What does the Deku King and Princess do after you've saved the swamp? What does Darmani do after his one scene? What importance is Igos after he's gone? These characters, and most in MM, appear for one scene and then are gone from the storyline until the ending credits.

That's because of how the game was designed: How do you involve characters if you are constantly rewinding time, erasing their progress in the plot? It just doesn't work, unless Nintendo had made stuff change, which really would have taken away from the theme of the game.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 July 2007 - 02:56 PM.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by LionHarted
Well, Mirren, I think most of the character dynamic in MM came less from how big their role was in the game than how you had the ability to impact their fates. Romani being taken by aliens and Kafei's plans to stop Sakon being halted by your intervention with the Bomb Shop lady both represented the meat of what MM is: 1) you must take action to stop bad things from happening to the denizens of Termina, so that you don't have to witness them again; 2) you must navigate through "story puzzles" where your decisions in one case affect what decisions you can make later on.

It was this RPG element that made it such a hit.

Again, though, I don't see how people can be so attached to characters that never have a chance to shine. Their backgrounds and situations are cool, no doubt, but it's hard to say that they themselves are as memorable as characters in other Zelda games that show up more than once and play a pretty big role in the actual adventure, not some side-mission.

Originally posted by Hero of Legend
I understand Mirren’s argument, though I should point out you meet most characters at least twice because of how you rewind time between different parts of the quest to open the way to the temples. Also, you have to remember that returning side characters weren't really that common until TP.

Even if you rewind, it's not like a new cutscene occurs, and they say brand new dialogue. Besides, I can't see a lot of people having to rewind time before they opened the temple, the quests weren't that long.

Oh, and as for returning side characters, OoT was probably the first to do it the most, but WW also did so. Neither as much as TP, but TP certainly didn't break ground in that regard.

I'd disagree with that. Tatl was the first dynamic character in any Zelda game, and she did have quite a few moments where she really showed personality. Her "Wha...What are you, anyway?" is perhaps my favorite line from any Zelda game, simply because of the implications that go with it.

Tatl was a hoot. My personal favorite moment with her comes at the beginning of the Kafei quest, where she says to him "Well...you're just careless, like my partner here", referring to Link, of course.

But, showing off your personality is not the same as developing, remember. Developing is what she did when she decided to tag along with Link, realizing he wasn't a half bad guy, and at the end when she thanks him. Not many other moments outside of these in her development, as she was mostly a gameplay aid throughout the campaign.

That's because of how the game was designed: How do you involve characters if you are constantly rewinding time, erasing their progress in the plot? It just doesn't work, unless Nintendo had made stuff change, which really would have taken away from the theme of the game.

That doesn't really change that there's poor character development. I could give a care what the excuse is, the fact is there's next to no one to carry the plot and get attached to. I personally found the time system to be a crappy gameplay addition anyway, so for me that's not decent reason.

[Kwicky Koala]

Again, though, I don't see how people can be so attached to characters that never have a chance to shine. Their backgrounds and situations are cool, no doubt, but it's hard to say that they themselves are as memorable as characters in other Zelda games that show up more than once and play a pretty big role in the actual adventure, not some side-mission.

They do play a big role, and they are part of the actual adventure. That's why the games ending changes according to how many sidequests you've completed, and all the characters lives are shown during it. And without the sidequests, all you have is a dungeon-crawl really, and MM is obviously more highly esteemed than that, as its winning the poll at the moment.

That doesn't really change that there's poor character development. I could give a care what the excuse is, the fact is there's next to no one to carry the plot and get attached to. I personally found the time system to be a crappy gameplay addition anyway, so for me that's not decent reason.

Its not going to give it to you on a plate, you have to take time to talk to everyone to get involved with the characters. Its a lot more subtle than something like TP were argubly the development got shoved in your face, but if you explore there's a lot to be found. There was a topic on it recently as I recall.

[Fyxe]

Again, though, I don't see how people can be so attached to characters that never have a chance to shine. Their backgrounds and situations are cool, no doubt, but it's hard to say that they themselves are as memorable as characters in other Zelda games that show up more than once and play a pretty big role in the actual adventure, not some side-mission.

What makes the characters special in MM is that the side characters, while not directly involved in the main mission, feel like real people with real lives. So in my mind at least Anju for example is much more memorable than many other Zelda characters, such as Ilia. Nothing wrong with Ilia, she's one of the more developed characters, but she has no more involvement in the main story than Anju does, and Anju wins because the relationships she has with everyone are so real compared to the interactions in other Zelda games.

Plus, I should point out once again that, say, Darunia, while he appears a couple of times, once in the past and once in the future, only appears briefly. He sticks to his room in the past and acts grumpy, oh and he gives you the Goron Ruby. Perfectly fine. As an adult he shows up for about five seconds to take on Volvagia then he becomes a Sage and that's it, bam, no more real involvement other than saying 'keep going, Brother'. I don't see how this makes him any more memorable than Darmani, who Link essentially turns into and you get to actually BE.

But, showing off your personality is not the same as developing, remember. Developing is what she did when she decided to tag along with Link, realizing he wasn't a half bad guy, and at the end when she thanks him. Not many other moments outside of these in her development, as she was mostly a gameplay aid throughout the campaign.

There are actually a few more moments than that. There's the bit where she recognises Skull Kid's drawing, there's the bit after beating Odolwa where she actually apologises properly, there's the bits where she accidentally mentions needing a horse when Epona is still missing. Oh, and there is all the alternate pieces of dialogue when you face Skull Kid on the Clock Town at different times. She does develop. She starts of as a reluctant companion, and then she gets more receptive to Link and apologises properly, and later on she starts to become very attached to him. Her final bit of dialogue before they take on Majora's Mask is just the cherry on the cake. Tatl has almost as much character development as Midna (arguably the most developed character in the series).

That doesn't really change that there's poor character development. I could give a care what the excuse is, the fact is there's next to no one to carry the plot and get attached to. I personally found the time system to be a crappy gameplay addition anyway, so for me that's not decent reason.

There are so many things wrong with this that I can't be bothered to provide a counter argument. I would recommend replaying both OoT followed by MM and tell me which one has more character development. You will eat your words. Trust me. It's just a simple fact of the difference between both games that MM has much more character development. It just does, really.

And the time system was the most inspired concept in a Zelda game, I am at a loss for when people think it's 'crappy', makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Edited by Fyxe, 14 July 2007 - 06:33 PM.

[Showsni]

That doesn't really change that there's poor character development. I could give a care what the excuse is, the fact is there's next to no one to carry the plot and get attached to. I personally found the time system to be a crappy gameplay addition anyway, so for me that's not decent reason.

Are we playing the same game? Your picks for "main characters" are pretty poor - Darmani, the Deku King and Igos du Ikana. Sure, they're all plot important, but the whole point of MM is the sidequests. People like Anju, Kafei, Romani, Cremia, Gorman, the postman, etc... these are the true main charaters of MM. Everyone has a story to tell, nearly. MM is made for things like seeing the swordsman quaking in the back of his shop, after his boasts of cutting the moon in two. Seeing the guard watching the little children in the dtreet but unable to desert his post and help them. Seeing Mutoh staring down the moon in the final hours. Following the whole Anju Kafei quest, and seeing them either united in love, or Anju fleeing with her family, depending on your actions. Helping Lulu find her voice; letting Mikau's last song be heard; letting the Goron baby see his hero win the races one last time.

[D~N]

All this MM talk is great; I loved the sidequests and character development of this game. I'd remember the sidequests way longer than the actual adventure. In fact, I've already forgotten much of the second half. (i.e., I've forgotten "how to beat" the last two temples of MM).

However, while MM is a clear-cut winner in the "sidequest and characters" part of the game, when you take the series back to its roots, it's all about the adventure; the epic journey, and the vast overworld. Nobody thought less of the original LoZ for "Dodongo dislikes smoke", so why think less of other titles for having a few characters who aren't fully fleshed out? When I voted, I made sure to ask myself what made a Zelda game a Zelda game, (which was the exploration and vastness, plus fun combat and battles) and voted accordingly.

Edited by D~N, 14 July 2007 - 09:44 PM.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by Catterick
They do play a big role, and they are part of the actual adventure. That's why the games ending changes according to how many sidequests you've completed, and all the characters lives are shown during it. And without the sidequests, all you have is a dungeon-crawl really, and MM is obviously more highly esteemed than that, as its winning the poll at the moment.

Yeah, and it's badly losing in polls of the exact same topic at places like Zelda Universe and Zelda Legacy, what's your point? One poll at one site doesn't mean anything.

The NPCs do very little for you in terms of the story. There's a few that actually help you progress, but it's very rare that they do it knowing that you're trying to save the world, or they do something that doesn't involve teaching you a new song or giving you some item. Very bland stuff outside of the sidequests.

Its not going to give it to you on a plate, you have to take time to talk to everyone to get involved with the characters. Its a lot more subtle than something like TP were argubly the development got shoved in your face, but if you explore there's a lot to be found. There was a topic on it recently as I recall.

What's wrong with a game giving the development to you up front in the campaign? What's wrong with it keeping its central characters involved in the actual story and not side missions? Sounds to me like you just have a different opinion.

Originally posted by Fyxe
What makes the characters special in MM is that the side characters, while not directly involved in the main mission, feel like real people with real lives. So in my mind at least Anju for example is much more memorable than many other Zelda characters, such as Ilia. Nothing wrong with Ilia, she's one of the more developed characters, but she has no more involvement in the main story than Anju does, and Anju wins because the relationships she has with everyone are so real compared to the interactions in other Zelda games.

I realize that they're two different takes on things, but I didn't like the way that MM's take because I couldn't get connected with characters that appear so briefly. Can we just agree that we have different preferences?

Plus, I should point out once again that, say, Darunia, while he appears a couple of times, once in the past and once in the future, only appears briefly. He sticks to his room in the past and acts grumpy, oh and he gives you the Goron Ruby. Perfectly fine. As an adult he shows up for about five seconds to take on Volvagia then he becomes a Sage and that's it, bam, no more real involvement other than saying 'keep going, Brother'. I don't see how this makes him any more memorable than Darmani, who Link essentially turns into and you get to actually BE.

However brief, he still appears for much more time than most MM characters, and we get to see him evolve throughout the game. At first as you said, he's a grumpy, tough jerk. Then we find out that he has a soft side and is actually a friendly guy under the right circumstances. After Dodongo's Cavern we see that he becomes fond of Link, and that respect for him is still is as strong as ever seven years later. In the future, we see how determined he is to save his people, and eventually we find out that he was wise and strong enough to be a Sage. This wild, rowdy Goron turns out to be a being of mystical power. That's the kind of stuff you can't get with just one scene; because OoT gives him several appearances, we see a variety of sides to his personality, and we get to learn and understand him over time. That's why I find him far more memorable than Darmani, and that's why I find him to be one of the most memorable characters in the series.

Of course, as said before, OoT isn't the best example for my case, and Darunia is unfortunately one of the very few complex characters in that game.

Originally posted by Showsni
Are we playing the same game? Your picks for "main characters" are pretty poor - Darmani, the Deku King and Igos du Ikana. Sure, they're all plot important, but the whole point of MM is the sidequests. People like Anju, Kafei, Romani, Cremia, Gorman, the postman, etc... these are the true main charaters of MM. Everyone has a story to tell, nearly. MM is made for things like seeing the swordsman quaking in the back of his shop, after his boasts of cutting the moon in two. Seeing the guard watching the little children in the dtreet but unable to desert his post and help them. Seeing Mutoh staring down the moon in the final hours. Following the whole Anju Kafei quest, and seeing them either united in love, or Anju fleeing with her family, depending on your actions. Helping Lulu find her voice; letting Mikau's last song be heard; letting the Goron baby see his hero win the races one last time.

When did I ever say Darmani, the Deku King and Igos are main characters? Because I used them as examples of their limited importance?

No, I clearly stated before that the main characters are Link, Tael, Tatl, the Skull Kid and the Happy Mask Salesman.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Yeah, and it's badly losing in polls of the exact same topic at places like Zelda Universe and Zelda Legacy, what's your point? One poll at one site doesn't mean anything.

Then why are you continuing this argument?

Anyways, people have their opinions, just let it be. It's a favorite zelda game poll, not a best zelda game poll. It's starting to shift from opinion to apparent facts, and it will never end.

Edited by Mystic Kitsune, 15 July 2007 - 06:10 AM.

[Fyxe]

Yeah, and it's badly losing in polls of the exact same topic at places like Zelda Universe and Zelda Legacy, what's your point?

Who gives a fuck.

I personally have no time for those forums, especially if they have no respect for the genius of Majora's Mask.

My heart is lifted by how popular the game is on this forum. It stikes me that this is easily the most intelligent Zelda forum I've ever known of.

The Zelda series needs more games like Majora's Mask. Twilight Princess was utterly great, but what made it great were all the new things in it, and what made it less of a game than MM is the fact that so much in the game had already been touched upon in previous games, such as Ocarina of Time (which in turn took a lot of stuff from ALttP) and TWW.

[LionHarted]

Again, though, I don't see how people can be so attached to characters that never have a chance to shine.

Some of the sidequests required so much precision that you had to try them multiple times before you'd get the right combination of events.
As such, you really get more time with them than you'd expect. And, thus, why people like them so much. They actually had to work at helping them. At helping as many people as possible in that 3-day period, when so many of their stories overlap.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by Mystic Kitsune
Then why are you continuing this argument?

Anyways, people have their opinions, just let it be. It's a favorite zelda game poll, not a best zelda game poll. It's starting to shift from opinion to apparent facts, and it will never end.

I don't know, maybe because I stated my opinion and then everybody decided to try and prove it wrong. I did not quote anybody in my first post, and I clearly made it out as my own preference, but I still got numerous replies trying to refute my opinion.

Originally posted by Fyxe
Who gives a fuck.

That's my point. It doesn't matter how one poll goes because it's not the deciding factor about anything. This poll alone doesn't prove that MM is highly esteemed, much like the polls at those other sites don't prove that MM is hated.

The Zelda series needs more games like Majora's Mask. Twilight Princess was utterly great, but what made it great were all the new things in it, and what made it less of a game than MM is the fact that so much in the game had already been touched upon in previous games, such as Ocarina of Time (which in turn took a lot of stuff from ALttP) and TWW.

One day, if Aonuma isn't restricted by anything, I think we'll see more Zeldas like MM. But the problem is, he doesn't have complete control over a game, and you can definitely see signs of Miyamoto in things like WW and TP. When Aonuma eventually is allowed total freedom in creating a game, I think we'll see something no one could forget.

Though, I have heard very good things about PH...

Originally posted by LionHarted
Some of the sidequests required so much precision that you had to try them multiple times before you'd get the right combination of events.
As such, you really get more time with them than you'd expect. And, thus, why people like them so much. They actually had to work at helping them. At helping as many people as possible in that 3-day period, when so many of their stories overlap.

How many sidequests were that precise, however? The only ones I could think where you'd have to spend a significant amount of time with them are the Anju and Kafei one, and maybe the Bombers. Everything else was no where near as grand as those two.

[Fyxe]

Though, I have heard very good things about PH...

So have I. I was a little sceptical at first that it might be a bit simplistic, but the more I see and hear, the more awesome the game sounds.

I'm avoiding detailed info and spoilers like the plague though.

Also, if you want another large sidequest, what about Romani and Cremia? That's a long sidequest.

Edited by Fyxe, 15 July 2007 - 10:45 AM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

It was a tough enough decision between OoT and MM, but I really think TP had the best of both, so it wins by a hair

[Mystic Kitsune]

Sorry Mirren, if that post sounded offensive or anything. The opinion part was directed at everybody.

Though, I have heard very good things about PH...

It is indeed. Do not play this game if you actually have work to do. You will get hooked.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by Fyxe
Also, if you want another large sidequest, what about Romani and Cremia? That's a long sidequest.

Eh, the way those played out I view them more as individual missions than one big quest, but I can see where you're coming from. Those happen to be some of my favorite sidequests in the series.

Originally posted by Mystic Kitsune
Sorry Mirren, if that post sounded offensive or anything. The opinion part was directed at everybody.

Dont apologize when I misinterpreted something

Edited by Mirren, 15 July 2007 - 02:03 PM.

[CID Farwin]

All these posts have got me thinking on what made things so good for MM.

What was done so well about the side-quests is that they all felt like part of the main storyline, almost as if doing EVERYTHING was part of the storyline. I think that was mostly due to the 3-day cycle. That was the worst part of TWW's Triforce hunt, is that nothing happened during the time it took. In Majora's Mask stuff was always happening, and the people did different things. You actually see an entire world evolve over a 3-day period. That's what makes Majora's Mask so great, and yet to be surpassed by any game I've seen in that aspect.

*note*
This post isn't aimed at anybody, or really replying to anybody, I'm just stating my opinion.

[Hylian Dan]

MM did that, yes, but it's hard to become attached to them when all we know of them is about one-hundred seconds worth, at least for me.

When I played Majora's Mask for the first time, it wasn't like that at all. For instance, Gorman's storyline isn't exactly long and intricate. It's pretty straightforward. But the first time I played the game, it took a long time for his story to unfold to me. At first I get the impression that he's just some jerk. But then I'd notice him walking through Clock Town at various times, and I'd wonder what he's up to. I'd do some investigating and find him in the Milk Bar, upset about something. Another time I'd witness his talk with Madame Aroma, who shoots him down and outright insults him, and then I'd start to feel sorry for the guy and understand where he's coming from. But there were still many missing pieces to his storyline. I'd run into him unexpectedly at the Inn, before he heads to the bar. I'd want to continue following his story and help him out, but I'd be left in suspense until I get at least halfway through the game, which took quite some time during my first playthrough. When I finally gained access to the Milk Bar, it was exciting to finally move forward in his story. But I didn't have the Zora Mask yet, so I was left in suspense for a little while longer. When I at last get to see the resolution to his story, it's very satisfying and memorable. When you replay MM years later and just breeze through these sidequests, it's easy to forget what it was like to go through them for the first time. Gorman's story may not seem like much when you just replay the key events, but the first time through I found it to be far more interesting and engaging than Darunia's story, for instance.

One day, if Aonuma isn't restricted by anything, I think we'll see more Zeldas like MM. But the problem is, he doesn't have complete control over a game, and you can definitely see signs of Miyamoto in things like WW and TP. When Aonuma eventually is allowed total freedom in creating a game, I think we'll see something no one could forget.

I think what we got was Twilight Princess. Miyamoto didn't really step in until the game was far in development; Aonuma was the one behind the game. Miyamoto was actually the one who created MM's story and framework, according to Jason Leung in an old NP article.

The NPCs do very little for you in terms of the story. There's a few that actually help you progress, but it's very rare that they do it knowing that you're trying to save the world, or they do something that doesn't involve teaching you a new song or giving you some item. Very bland stuff outside of the sidequests.

Bland? The owl knew Link could save Termina, but instead of rambling on about Link being the oh-so-special chosen one and vowing to do everything in his power to help him, he tells Link it is better for him to hurry back to town. That didn't strike me as bland.

What's bland is how all the side characters in TP absolutely worship Link. Sure they're more active in the campaign, but they're all such goody-goodies. What do characters like Ashei or Shad have going for them, other than the novelty of the concept of regular Hylians helping Link?

Who gives a fuck.

I personally have no time for those forums, especially if they have no respect for the genius of Majora's Mask.

Zelda Universe has its share of MM fanboys, myself included. I've glanced through several forums recently, such as IGN, and MM seems to be growing in popularity almost universally.

Oh, and MM's my favorite, and not just because of the story and characters. I also think it has the best gameplay, dungeons, puzzles, combat and environments. It's such a well-crafted game in all aspects.

Edited by Hylian Dan, 16 July 2007 - 12:28 AM.

[LionHarted]

Perhaps it might be best to say that MM's success lies in the fact that literally every collectible clicks together another piece of the intricate puzzle between the minor characters (or leads to a Piece of Heart).

MM is getting more popular, I think, because the more recent games have failed to live up to its standard.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Perhaps it might be best to say that MM's success lies in the fact that literally every collectible clicks together another piece of the intricate puzzle between the minor characters (or leads to a Piece of Heart).

MM is getting more popular, I think, because the more recent games have failed to live up to its standard.

That, and newer players to the zelda series are known to backtrack to see how the other games were, meaning they'd run into games like ALttP, OoT, MM, etc

[KeeSomething]

I'm a Majora's Mask fan more than anything. I like to look at it as the last masterful Zelda game. Too bad it doesn't get the praise it deserves, and it makes me sick that games like The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and even The Minish Cap get so muhc love when Majora is only mentioned as the" oddity of the series."

One flaw that the Zelda series has now is this whole hand-holding thing. For example: In Twilight Princess, you are constantly told exactly where to go, and when you get there a cutscene shows you what to do, and then Midna gives you a hint. By now, you exactly what to do because the game held your hand through it. Now only does this take away from the difficulty, but it also makes the game more linear and takes away from the feeling of exploration the Zelda series was once all about. In Majora's Mask, it is up to you, the gamer, to figure out what to do. The game never comes out an tells you what to do; You need to go out, explore and do a little detective work. That's with both the main-quest and the side-quests. I'm disappointed the the Zelda series has shifted so far from this since Majora's Mask since Zelda once was all about non-linearity, exploration, and discovering things on your own. This is a rewarded experience, but it is taken away when the game guides you through it. Luckly, Majora's Mask did this better than any other game I've ever played. You actually felt like you were in the world of Termina, and you had the freedom to do things at your own pace and on your own.

This feeling of freedom in Majora's Mask is complemented further with the fact that there were countless numbers of people you can choose to help or egnore on on your quest. I'd get into this deeper, but this has already been discussed. One thing that I love about the NPCs that hasn't been mentioned yet is how well characters were connected whether it was throught the moral of the game or through relationships. Every character in Termina is connected, and in a realsitic and believable way. You actually feel like you are in a living, breathing world. Being able to follow each character during the last 3 days of their lives and seeing them in pain, and knowing you can help them, only adds another layer of depth to the complexity of the game and the depth of the characters that you grow to care about.

Now, some fans don't like how the dungeons took the backseat in order to allow for more in-depth character relationships and side-quests, and while the number of dungeons may have suffered, the quality surely didn't. In my opinion, Majora's Mask has the most complex and well-thoughtout dungeons out of any Zelda game. As Hylian Dan and I have discussed at Zelda Universe, MM's dungeons are not presented as tutorals. You don't just get a dungeon item, and have to rely on it the whole dungeon, and repeat for the next 3. No, you mostly get you big items outside of dungeons so by the time you get to a temple, the game expects you mastered those items or skills you learned (like the hookshot, the transformation masks, etc.). By the time you get to the Stone Tower Temple, arguably the best dungeon in Zelda history, the game expects you be an expert at the game. You really do have to use all the skills you learned in the game at that point from transforming to pass dangerous obstacles to knowing what strategies work best for what enemies. Also, each dungeon introducing new enemies that are more challengeing than the last. Man, I want to go on about how great the dungeons in Majora's Mask are from the complex designs to the beautiful and unique atmospheres and architecture, but if you beat the game, you know already.

Majora's Mask is my favorite Zelda game, and I'm glad to see how it is getting so much support recently. I think with each waterd-down Zelda advnture that comes out, more and more people will respect Majora's Mask for it's depth, unique and fun gameplay, and its direction.

Edited by KeeSomething, 16 July 2007 - 01:23 PM.

[Mirren]

Originally posted by Hylian Dan
When I played Majora's Mask for the first time, it wasn't like that at all. For instance, Gorman's storyline isn't exactly long and intricate. It's pretty straightforward. But the first time I played the game, it took a long time for his story to unfold to me. At first I get the impression that he's just some jerk. But then I'd notice him walking through Clock Town at various times, and I'd wonder what he's up to. I'd do some investigating and find him in the Milk Bar, upset about something. Another time I'd witness his talk with Madame Aroma, who shoots him down and outright insults him, and then I'd start to feel sorry for the guy and understand where he's coming from. But there were still many missing pieces to his storyline. I'd run into him unexpectedly at the Inn, before he heads to the bar. I'd want to continue following his story and help him out, but I'd be left in suspense until I get at least halfway through the game, which took quite some time during my first playthrough. When I finally gained access to the Milk Bar, it was exciting to finally move forward in his story. But I didn't have the Zora Mask yet, so I was left in suspense for a little while longer. When I at last get to see the resolution to his story, it's very satisfying and memorable. When you replay MM years later and just breeze through these sidequests, it's easy to forget what it was like to go through them for the first time. Gorman's story may not seem like much when you just replay the key events, but the first time through I found it to be far more interesting and engaging than Darunia's story, for instance.

Do you really have to even say this to me when I've heard your love of MM a hundred times now?

I think what we got was Twilight Princess. Miyamoto didn't really step in until the game was far in development; Aonuma was the one behind the game. Miyamoto was actually the one who created MM's story and framework, according to Jason Leung in an old NP article.

Aonuma was the producer of the game up until around mid 2005, when Miyamoto stepped in and took that position. You can obviously tell that Aonuma wants to explore new territory with Zelda, as shown by MM and PH, but he's often held back by Miyamoto's love for OoT. In WW it's pretty obvious, we have this brand new world in the form of the Great Sea, a new theme, a new visual style, lots of communication sidequests, new gameplay elements like sailing and dungeon-teamwork, but at the same time we get more Hyrule, more Ganondorf, yet another Zelda-disguise, and your basic "collect three items, get Master Sword, big turning point, collect more items, end game" sequence. That's very Miyamoto.

Same with TP, we get newer things like Zant, Midna, the Twilight Realm, but in the end it's the same mission sequence as above, more Ganondorf and Zelda (which, to some extent, felt kind of tacked-on) and very few communication sidequests, but insteads collections and exploration tasks. That, again, is very Miyamoto.

Aonuma appears to have had majority control over PH, and though it does do a lot of traditional things, there's far more fresh ideas. From what I know, it's along the lines of Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask in terms of being 'unorthodox'.

Bland? The owl knew Link could save Termina, but instead of rambling on about Link being the oh-so-special chosen one and vowing to do everything in his power to help him, he tells Link it is better for him to hurry back to town. That didn't strike me as bland.

Telling you where to go? Damn, never saw that in another Zelda game...

What's bland is how all the side characters in TP absolutely worship Link. Sure they're more active in the campaign, but they're all such goody-goodies. What do characters like Ashei or Shad have going for them, other than the novelty of the concept of regular Hylians helping Link?

Ashei not so much, but Shad had a funny little disposition and some background about why he wanted to help so much. Of course, for such minor characters like those, their biggest importance is their contribution to the idea of normal people directly helping the kingdom.

The only ones that really worship Link are the kids, but they have a very endearing role in the story.

Edited by Mirren, 16 July 2007 - 05:48 PM.

[Mystic Kitsune]

I'm a Majora's Mask fan more than anything. I like to look at it as the last masterful Zelda game. Too bad it doesn't get the praise it deserves, and it makes me sick that games like The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and even The Minish Cap get so muhc love when Majora is only mentioned as the" oddity of the series."

Not everybody is into the MM type of game. "Makes you sick" may be a bit strong... Although, Windwaker leaves tonnes of room for exploration, you have the whole sea to explore, and the islands in each sector. But I guess if you mean in terms of guiding you through the story, then yeah.

Twilight Princess didn't leave me with much to look for, though, and with that, I was a bit disappointed.

I agree with you for the most part. Don't get me wrong, Majora's Mask has been my favorite of the series.

[LionHarted]

You'll all be glad to know that the more hardcore of ZU-ers actually do prefer MM, according to a poll on the ZU-schism, ZeldaInformer.

Or maybe you won't care.

[Mirren]

^ Please don't tell me you fell for that "A place for real Zelda fans!" crap...

They're not hardcore Zelda fans, not in the least. It's nothing like here, Zelda Dungeon, Zelda Planet etc.

Edited by Mirren, 17 July 2007 - 10:31 AM.

[Hylian Dan]

Do you really have to even say this to me when I've heard your love of MM a hundred times now?

You made a complaint, I addressed it. I was pointing out that MM has a different way of letting the stories of certain characters unfold over the course of the game. Even someone like Gorman can seem to have as large a presence in the game as someone like Ilia or Darunia in their games. The characters are just presented differently; their roles aren't necessarily smaller.

Telling you where to go? Damn, never saw that in another Zelda game..

What point are you trying to make? I could say the same thing about TP's whole resistance group. I wouldn't say characters like Pamela and her dad or the Goron Elder were inherently bland just because they ultimately gave you a mask or taught you a song, and I wouldn't say characters like Renado or Auru were inherently interesting just because they were more directly trying to help Link in his quest. To me the impression left by the characters is more important than the way they help you progress. TP may have created a whole group of Hylians devoted to helping Link out, but I wasn't at all compelled to save Hyrule for their sakes.

Edited by Hylian Dan, 17 July 2007 - 12:41 PM.

[Mirren]

You made a complaint, I addressed it. I was pointing out that MM has a different way of letting the stories of certain characters unfold over the course of the game. Even someone like Gorman can seem to have as large a presence in the game as someone like Ilia or Darunia in their games. The characters are just presented differently; their roles aren't necessarily smaller.

Which was strictly my opinion, because I realized what the game was doing and I felt it wasn't the right method.

What point are you trying to make? I could say the same thing about TP's whole resistance group. I wouldn't say characters like Pamela and her dad or the Goron Elder were inherently bland just because they ultimately gave you a mask or taught you a song, and I wouldn't say characters like Renado or Auru were inherently interesting just because they were more directly trying to help Link in his quest. To me the impression left by the characters is more important than the way they help you progress. TP may have created a whole group of Hylians devoted to helping Link out, but I wasn't at all compelled to save Hyrule for their sakes.

TP's resistance group also helps you at Hyrule Castle, Shad does a lot of work during the pre-City in the Sky Quest, Telma helps you make sure that Ilia and Ralis are safe by providing transportation to Kakariko, and the team themselves have been working together to help Hyrule even before they join with Link.

However, we can't really get anywhere. What you find bland is something I find interesting and better, and I find bland is something you find interesting and better.