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Is the Hero of Time the Hero's Spirit in Twilight Princess?


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#31 world_trecker

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 02:57 PM

.....how shamefull.......

#32 SOAP

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 03:04 PM

Battlestar Zelda....

The Legend of Galactica....

#33 Duke Serkol

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 06:05 PM

Forest Temple in TP appears to be a whole bunch of giant trees.

I mean from the outside, If I remember correctly.

Look at it from Hyrule field, several tall trees. I'd wager we'd be able to see them from the other side, the entrance if we were not so close that one of them takes up most of Link's view.

it's either that or have the Temple of Time moved somehow to the other side of Death Mountain.

I believe there has been lots of debates about that but I really don't think it's possible for them to be the same temples (of Forest and Time), it just wouldn't make much sense at all (especially since you have to go down the stairs to enter, not up).


He reminds me of a Cylon.


Oh boohoo. No one commented on this. I'm gonna go crawl into a corner and cry.

*hugs Lee Adama plush doll*

I thought of asking which one, but now I'm too disturbed by the idea of a Lee plussie to think coherently.

#34 SOAP

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 06:30 PM

Forest Temple in TP appears to be a whole bunch of giant trees.

I mean from the outside, If I remember correctly.

Look at it from Hyrule field, several tall trees. I'd wager we'd be able to see them from the other side, the entrance if we were not so close that one of them takes up most of Link's view.

it's either that or have the Temple of Time moved somehow to the other side of Death Mountain.

I believe there has been lots of debates about that but I really don't think it's possible for them to be the same temples (of Forest and Time), it just wouldn't make much sense at all (especially since you have to go down the stairs to enter, not up).


He reminds me of a Cylon.


Oh boohoo. No one commented on this. I'm gonna go crawl into a corner and cry.

*hugs Lee Adama plush doll*

I thought of asking which one, but now I'm too disturbed by the idea of a Lee plussie to think coherently.


Jambie Bamber of course. And of course I'd rather hug the real thing.

#35 CID Farwin

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 06:39 PM

I believe there has been lots of debates about that but I really don't think it's possible for them to be the same temples (of Forest and Time), it just wouldn't make much sense at all (especially since you have to go down the stairs to enter, not up).

you've got me on the stairs, but any explanation requires fan-fiction so I'll stick to mine.

Look at it from Hyrule field, several tall trees. I'd wager we'd be able to see them from the other side, the entrance if we were not so close that one of them takes up most of Link's view.

I'll take your word for it; I don't feel much like playing TP at the moment.

#36 beth1

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 10:47 AM

I think the thing that most people have been missing is that at the beginning of TP, it says that Link is wearing the clothes of the hero of time. The OoT Link is only wearing his dashing green tunic because his Mum left him under the care of the Deku tree and so he was raised like everyone else in Kokiri forest. Also, in the timeline theories that have been floating around, the events of OoT come first out of all the games.

So, piecing all of this together, Hero's Spirit may well be OoT Link, and he is just not wearing his tunic because TP Link is wearing it, even though it was originally the property of OoT Link. I guess the tunic is kinda a symbol to mark the current hero.

- Beth

#37 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 05:51 PM

So a ghost can't have ghostly duplicates of it's clothing? Not to mention the loads of other issues you didn't resolve. Timeline chronology and clothing doesn't contribute anything.

#38 SOAP

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 03:07 PM

He's the Hero's Shade. Judging by it's definition, for all we know the Hero of Time possessed a Stalfos. In either case, since when was it mandatory for spirits to look anything like they did when they were mortal? The Hero Shade refers to himself as once being the Hero, not a hero. And there's one "the Hero" mentioned in TP and that's the Hero of Time. That alone is enough for me, though coupled with all the Ocarina and MM tunes he teaches wolf Link, how he appears shortly after Link obtains the Hero's Tunic, how he seems adamant about passing his skills unto Link, you'd have to be incredibly stubborn or just plauin blind not to see the correlation.

#39 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:01 PM

The Hero Shade refers to himself as once being the Hero, not a hero.


Quotes, please.

That alone is enough for me, though coupled with all the Ocarina and MM tunes he teaches wolf Link, how he appears shortly after Link obtains the Hero's Tunic, how he seems adamant about passing his skills unto Link, you'd have to be incredibly stubborn or just plauin blind not to see the correlation.


Or just skeptical of over-analysis.

#40 spunky-monkey

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:48 PM

Oh, I'm so going to regret debating in this particular topic; its my vain hope that we can successfully conclude said subject and put this dead-duck to rest for several months (or at least until someone else restarts it).

So, piecing all of this together, Hero's Spirit may well be OoT Link, and he is just not wearing his tunic because TP Link is wearing it, even though it was originally the property of OoT Link.

Come on that's not even a logical argument - just because TP Link is wearing the tunic doesn't mean the Hero's Shade can't incorporate an image of the green garb either. Remember he's a spirit (hence why you're unable to hurt/wound him, obviously) and therefore is not bound by earthly possessions or limitations. He may take on whatever form he desires: golden wolf and gladiator appearances are proof of this flexibility. The Hero of Time's trademark and very identity is within aforementioned cap and tunic, he's not going to adopt different clothing because it's not essential to tutor a successor this way.


So a ghost can't have ghostly duplicates of it's clothing? Not to mention the loads of other issues you didn't resolve. Timeline chronology and clothing doesn't contribute anything.

Good point. What's more, the Hero's Shade can form ghostly duplicates to train Link but no one seems to notice none of them don the distinct tunic. I must wonder why some people jumped on such a ridiculous and unfounded claim as to compare this ghost to HoT. In that respect, we don't even know what happened to him after Majora's Mask anyways.


He's the Hero's Shade. Judging by it's definition, for all we know the Hero of Time possessed a Stalfos. In either case, since when was it mandatory for spirits to look anything like they did when they were mortal?

So Queen Rutela can easily materialize to the player as her former-living-self but the suppossed legendary Hero of Time is completely unable to? I don't think so SOAP.


The Hero Shade refers to himself as once being the Hero, not a hero. And there's one "the Hero" mentioned in TP and that's the Hero of Time.

Hero's Shade only refers to himself as "Hero" never "The Hero", implying Link from OoT/MM. This ambiguity is validated by the prologue appearance of the Hero of Men; note not all past heroes that were chosen to serve and protect Hyrule looked exactly like Link, the Legendary Hero. Hero's Spirit or whoever is a different person altogether.


That alone is enough for me, though coupled with all the Ocarina and MM tunes he teaches wolf Link, how he appears shortly after Link obtains the Hero's Tunic, how he seems adamant about passing his skills unto Link, you'd have to be incredibly stubborn or just plauin blind not to see the correlation.

You do realise individual midis of former-orchestrated songs hold no creditable value in a debate whatsoever? Stubborn or not at least we know they're merely paying homage to Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask.

Edited by Ricky, 26 October 2007 - 04:52 PM.


#41 SOAP

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:58 PM

Oh, I'm so going to regret debating in this particular topic; its my vain hope that we can successfully conclude said subject and put this dead-duck to rest for several months (or at least until someone else restarts it).

You sound like you've alraedy won the debate.

Remember he's a spirit (hence why you're unable to hurt/wound him, obviously) and therefore is not bound by earthly possessions or limitations. He may take on whatever form he desires: golden wolf and gladiator appearances are proof of this flexibility.

Exactly.

So Queen Rutela can easily materialize to the player as her former-living-self but the supposed legendary Hero of Time is completely unable to? I don't think so SOAP.

When did I say he was unable to? Debate what I'm saying, not made up arguements that have nothing to do with I'm talking about. I said ghosts don't always have to look like they did when they were living. Poes for example don't even remotely look human yet they once were Hylians.

Hero's Shade only refers to himself as "Hero" never "The Hero", implying Link from OoT/MM. This ambiguity is validated by the prologue appearance of the Hero of Men; note not all past heroes that were chosen to serve and protect Hyrule looked exactly like Link, the Legendary Hero. Hero's Spirit or whoever is a different person altogether.


You have at last mastered all of the hidden skills.
Although I accepted life as the hero, I could not convey the lessons of that
life to those who came after. At last, I have eased my regrets.
You who have marched through countless foes, each mightier than the last...
You, who now gaze to the future with vision unclouded...
Surely you can restore Hyrule to its stature of yore as the chosen land of the
gods.
...Farewell!
Go and do not falter, my child!

Hero's Shade's final words to Link.

Edited by SOAP, 26 October 2007 - 06:03 PM.


#42 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:46 AM

I see no capitalization on "The Hero" like every other instance in the script. That, and the lack of any sort of physical similarities to the Hero of Time whatsoever, lead me to believe this is bunk. Hyrule's had plenty of less epic, Non-Link heroes.

#43 Fyxe

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 05:09 AM

Oh for heaven's sake, who cares about capitalisation? Seriously? He says he accepted life as the hero, which Link also does, conveying that they're both the same 'the hero'.

I'm with SOAP on this. The implication is there. It might not be the case that he's the exact same hero as the one in OoT but he's almost certainly of the same line of legendary heroes whichever way you swing it.

#44 spunky-monkey

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 06:42 AM

Exactly.

You're overlooking the point I was making; in this situation character's appearance is everything, if he's really the Hero of Time then he should at least resemble Link in some way. He doesn't confirm to us he's that legendary Hero therefore he can't be that person. Hang on. How can you be so sure HoT is dead in the first instance SOAP?


When did I say he was unable to? Debate what I'm saying, not made up arguements that have nothing to do with I'm talking about. I said ghosts don't always have to look like they did when they were living. Poes for example don't even remotely look human yet they once were Hylians.

You implied it wasn't mandatory for spirits to look anything like their former-selves. However all this is inconsequential: you find me one proper in-game quote that say's Hero Shade IS the same Hero of Time from Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask and I'll immediately abandon my argument and reconsider your assumptions as having creditable weight, but so far all you're doing is basically speculating something that is simply untrue.

I suppose you're now going to reveal the Hero of Time is indeed related to OoT/MM Princess Zelda? (yes, that was a joke so don't get mad)

#45 FDL

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 09:21 AM

I agree with SOAP and Fyxe. Everything except his appearance SCREAMS Hero of Time. Oh yeah, on the capitalization topic, the Hero isn't always written like that. For example:


The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods...



In Hyrule, countless tales are told of the ancient hero...and your deeds bring them all to mind.


Well, looks like you made out all right by coming here. You get to keep some treasure of the ancient hero!


That timeless design... You're sporting the legendary hero LOOK, aren't you?


...Are you an actor or something? Dressing like the legendary hero... Wow, gutsy.



See? Hero is rarely capitalized at all. The "the" seems to be much more important. Even that Midna quote originally said "an" and was changed to "the" in later versions, which tells me that "the" is what is meant to tell us a person means the predecessor of Link, and not just some random heroic person.

#46 spunky-monkey

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 10:25 AM

I agree with SOAP and Fyxe. Everything except his appearance SCREAMS Hero of Time.


Posted Image

Yeah, everything except his appearance SCREAMS anybody who was ever a hero prior to Hero of Time and TP Link.


Hey I could argue that guy is probably the Hero of Men or TMC Link; but guess what? I've absolutely nothing to suggest this as plausible fact! Not a single shred of truth. Fact it, there's no evidence to support that this Hero's Shade was ever the Hero of Time to start with. So he called himself "Hero", big deal there's a metric arseload of Hylian heroes. There're no connections even in the quotes everyone's stated above: you're all making up imaginary references because it pleases you so until Eiji or Nintendo confirms your theories for you, you'll have no choice but to class him as yet another "mentor character" i.e. the grumpy sod who always unnessecarily teaches Link how to use a sword.

Edited by Ricky, 27 October 2007 - 10:26 AM.


#47 Fyxe

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:19 PM

Where are you getting this idea that there are tons of 'the hero' that aren't Link? So far, all the heroes that are referred to by a title or as 'the hero' have been Link. Even the 'Hero of Men' was clearly just Link without a hat and longer hair. That's it. The only other legendary heroes in Zelda history are the Knights of Hyrule.

#48 Arturo

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:43 PM

And the boy/girl of InS ^^

#49 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:08 PM

I suppose you're now going to reveal the Hero of Time is indeed related to OoT/MM Princess Zelda? (yes, that was a joke so don't get mad)

'Course he is. He's her brother and their mommy died saving him ^_^

#50 SOAP

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 04:26 PM

You're overlooking the point I was making; in this situation character's appearance is everything, if he's really the Hero of Time then he should at least resemble Link in some way. He doesn't confirm to us he's that legendary Hero therefore he can't be that person. Hang on. How can you be so sure HoT is dead in the first instance SOAP?

Because Link is not immortal.

You implied it wasn't mandatory for spirits to look anything like their former-selves.

No offense but you're the last person to have any say what is and isn't implied since you can't seem to wrap your head around anything that isn't bluntly hammered into your head. There is no such implication that I said ghost HAD to look different than their living forms. The only one making mandatory statements is you. The only one making stuff up is you.

Hey I could argue that guy is probably the Hero of Men or TMC Link; but guess what? I've absolutely nothing to suggest this as plausible fact! Not a single shred of truth.


Yes, you'd have no shred of evidence of anything of the sort. However, I do. He refers to himself as the hero and there is only one hero referred throughout the game, the Hero of Time. Heck, it's not once explicitly said that the hero everyone is talking about is the Hero of Time within the game, but no one had trouble making the connection even before the creators came out and officially stated it was the Hero of Time. We don't need to have Nintendo hold our hands and spell every little detail to us, but apparently you do.

#51 spunky-monkey

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 05:26 PM

Because Link is not immortal.

He's the Hero of Time. None of us can be absolutely sure, this Link emerging from Majora's Mask as a child with 'god-like powers' would suggest an alternative outcome. When Nintendo properly conclude his adventures then we can rule out the immortality clause.


No offense but you're the last person to have any say what is and isn't implied since you can't seem to wrap your head around anything that isn't bluntly hammered into your head.

Elitism much?


Yes, you'd have no shred of evidence of anything of the sort. However, I do.

Oh don't make me laugh. You haven't any evidence to argue for, or against, the possibility this ghost is actually the OoT/MM Link. I refuse to argue with you over you're own speculative ramblings:- you find a direct game quote that undeniably states Hero's Shade IS the legendary Hero of Time and then we'll talk, otherwise forget it.

#52 SOAP

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 05:34 PM

Elitism much?

Pot calling the kettle black, clearly.

I refuse to argue with you over you're own speculative ramblings:- you find a direct game quote that undeniably states Hero's Shade IS the legendary Hero of Time and then we'll talk, otherwise forget it.


I DID give you a game quote. But you rejected it outright. What exactly are you expecting, the Hero's Shade saying, "Oh by the way, I was once known I'm the Hero of Time." Again, nothing that explicit is state in regards to the all references to the Hero being being the Hero of Time in OoT, yet you'd be pretty ignorant to pretend otherwise. You keep asking me to provide proof but why don't you prove to why, WHY in this particular case, the reference to "the hero" isn't speaking about the Hero of Time when all the other times those two words used together is commonly accepted as referring to the Hero of Time?

Edited by SOAP, 27 October 2007 - 06:09 PM.


#53 Fyxe

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 06:28 PM

Because Link is not immortal.

He's the Hero of Time. None of us can be absolutely sure, this Link emerging from Majora's Mask as a child with 'god-like powers' would suggest an alternative outcome. When Nintendo properly conclude his adventures then we can rule out the immortality clause.

You're kidding, right?

I'm going to bring back an old cliche that hasn't been used for awhile.

That's so fanfic.

#54 SOAP

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 07:00 PM

You so should have said "fanwank" Fyxe. XD

#55 Fyxe

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 07:22 PM

I should have, but I gotta keep myself in check at least a little. XP

#56 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 11:42 PM

Yea, the immortality clause doesn't hold, because we all know the Hero of Time became an amnesiac, time-skipping TP Link.





lulz.

#57 Fyxe

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 06:07 AM

lulz.

*Smashes MPS with a baseball bat*

...

...What?

#58 spunky-monkey

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 08:36 AM

That's so fanfic.

HAH. What did you think this thread was about? Hardly an intellectually simulating topic. Please don't tell me you believe these obscure connections between Hero's Shade and HoT aren't part of fandom or you'll grievously disappoint me.


Yea, the immortality clause doesn't hold, because we all know the Hero of Time became an amnesiac, time-skipping TP Link.

That explains it then! Now all we need to do is prove the theory once and for all by submitting and comparing the OoT/TP official artworks. Those geography debaters won't know what hit them. >:3



And SOAP, jokes aside, that disgusting "fanwanking" term has no place in this community.

#59 Koroks Rock

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 02:20 PM

Didn't TP go on at length about how Link wasn't the only hero around, but instead, someone who inspired others to become heroes? If TP has a theme (and I'm not saying that it has it strongly), it is that Hyrule is not saved by just Link, and that he is not the only courageous one in Hyrule. Why else have that little scene in the last dungeon, or the whole Colin substory?

I believe that TP is trying to say that Link isn't always the guy to save Hyrule- TWW also says it, by having Hyrule fall because it's people relied on the appearance of the Hero. So, it logically becomes my belief that the dead man in question is not a Triforce-bearing, hat-wearing, death-daring Hero with a capital H, but is instead a warrior from a time forgotten.

Look at his armor. Which Link has worn armor yet? TP Link actually comes the closest with the magic tunic, but even it isn't anything like the hardcore gear this mentor wears. Like I said, hero with a lowercase h. Surely in Hyrule's centuries of history has one or two ordinary men who felt courageous, but weren't chosen by the goddesses. Maybe three, if we feel like going with the traditional 3 theme.

#60 SOAP

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 04:37 PM

Didn't TP go on at length about how Link wasn't the only hero around, but instead, someone who inspired others to become heroes?


I don't recall as such but I agree that TP Link wasn't the only one doing the saving. Neither was TWW Link. Both had allies doing their part to save Hyrule. However, my point is that when speaking about the hero, it's usually referring to one man, the Hero of Time, whether be describing the Hero's bow, the Zora's Tunic, or the old tale passed down by Impaz' family about a savior. Most would agree that these are referrences to OoT Link. Yet "hero" is not neccessarily capitalized nor do I think it was ever capitalized unless referring to something supposedly owned by the Hero of Time, such as the Hero's Bow, in which case it's part of the name of the object, or when the spirits called TP Link, the "Chosen Hero," in which case it's part of Link's title. In other cases, it's in lower case so getting hung up on whether the "H" in "hero" is capitalized or not is a bit pedantic.

All I'm saying is it's unfair to dismiss the theory that the Hero's Shade is not the Hero of Time at face value when no one makes much of a fuss of all the other times the hero is mentioned being a reference to OoT Link. Unless of course you're suggesting that the hero who saved the Gorons using the Hero's Bow is different from the Hero who King Zora had the Zora's Tunic tailored-made for and both heroes are different from the Hero of Time. Otherwise it be hypocritical to at least respect it as a legitimate theory and not just mindless ramblings which is how Ricky is treating it, which what is frustrating me the most. It's nothing people just randomly pulled out their asses like saying TWW is just a dream Tingle had about fairies and colorful worlds. I don't suffer fools kindly and don't like myself and others having our theories rejected outright, being demanded we prove our claims, and have our explanations rejected without even being heard out. Just because it does not fit in someone's preconceived notion of how the Zeldaverse works. It's like arguing with a brick wall when you're trying explain your view-point as well as you can and your opponent is just keeps metaphorically covering his ears "LALALALA! I'm not listening." Which is weird because that's what Ricky claims we're doing when that's exactly what he's doing now.




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